Advantages of SNES hardware vs. Genesis hardware

Just because it's made a decade or so later doesn't make it unfair. It's not like the Genesis magically grew a new PCM chip in that time. The hardware is still the same, in many cases it's still being written in assembly, and it still is made within every constraint of the hardware. There is nothing unfair about it, especially when we are solely comparing the hardware and what it can do instead of developer competency.

And we have brought up Genesis games from the 90's, you either shrug them off or say they suck for vague reasons.

Quote:

---

Just because it's made a decade or so later doesn't make it unfair

---

Of course it does- What could some of the best Snes sound programs do decades latter ?. Compare like for like that's fair

Quote:

---

And we have brought up Genesis games from the 90's, you either shrug them off or say they suck for vague reasons.

---

Which ones ? - When it comes to games like Ghost N Ghouls , Alien 3 I would agree - I love you lot trying to make me out not to be a Mega Drive or SEGA fan . You can be a fan of system and love everything about it , but still point out its short comings and when it came to samples and colour the MD had issues; just like the Saturn had issues with Lighting and Transparent 3D effects and you know there's no bigger Saturn fan on GOD's green Earth then me.

How is it unfair? What makes a new home brew used in a real new game different? Is the YM2612 now all of a sudden new and improved?




No.

Programs don't magically get better with age. They stay the same. The Best SNES sound drivers from the 90's would still be able to do the same thing decades later. The same is true for Genesis sound drivers. The new ones made by TmEE, Chilly Willy, and other homebrew programmers could have been done decades ago.

And you still are missing the point here. The SNES sound system is very cut and dry. There's not much wiggle room for you to do things with programming. It's a very boxed in system. What makes a difference with it is sample quality. The Genesis sound system however is very open allowing for customization through code. This has the advantage of allowing programmers to make amazing sound drivers that sound incredible and push the sound system to it's limits. It also comes with the disadvantage of making it difficult for less skilled programmers to get good sound quality from it. Homebrew developers are simply using this ability that has always been there.

As for transparency on the Saturn, are you still sticking to your claim that Sonic R doesn't do any true transparencies and it's all dithered?

Look, just saying.

http://gamersrepublic.net/user/141-team-andromeda/

Quote:

---

Member Title: drama king or troll?

---

Of course homebrews running on original hardware count. What year a game is made, by who and with what tools is completely irrelevant. It's like when Melf defended the Legend of Wukong score of 8 because not all devs have the same possibilites to make great games, so the bad, small developers should get better scores since it's "better for being made by them". How the hell can any reviewer or, in this thread, forum member, know the capabilities of all developers whose games they comment on?

Actually, many games made "back then" were also "homebrew", just officially licensed and released. If "modern homebrew" doesn't count, when is the border of which Atari 2600 games don't count? It has had homebrews released only 3 years after the last officially released game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zebbe

Of course homebrews running on original hardware count. What year a game is made, by who and with what tools is completely irrelevant. It's like when Melf defended the Legend of Wukong score of 8 because not all devs have the same possibilites to make great games, so the bad, small developers should get better scores since it's "better for being made by them". How the hell can any reviewer or, in this thread, forum member, know the capabilities of all developers whose games they comment on?

Actually, many games made "back then" were also "homebrew", just officially licensed and released. If "modern homebrew" doesn't count, when is the border of which Atari 2600 games don't count? It has had homebrews released only 3 years after the last officially released game.

---

I finally agree with you on something.

I would have agreed with TA if he'd go like "yeah, it's awesome it can do that, it's a shame developers back then didn't manage it, that's ultimately what counts". I'd have no problem with that, but no, it doesn't matter how much evidence you throw in his face he just doesn't get that there's a difference between a tech demo and a sound driver (which does not affect the game code at all since it runs in another processor). The genesis hardware can do awesome quality PCM if programmed right, with no performance hit for gameplay, but it's tough to program. This isn't up for discussion.

You just can't take someone who uses Contra III as an example of good sound/music seriously.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

Of course it does- What could some of the best Snes sound programs do decades latter ?. Compare like for like that's fair

---

The best Mega Drive/Genesis sound programmers haven't been tirelessly working for the last sixteen years on pushing Genesis sound further. They didn't make any tech demos. The demos we do have are from homebrewers often working with whatever tools have been developed by various fans in their own spare time. Without official dev kits and tech support from Sega. Homebrewers are at a huge disadvantage and that makes their demos and games all the more impressive.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

And the Snes can do action games if programmed correctly, but NCL made it hardwork with a limiting CPU in just the same way SEGA made it hard for samples with its Mega Drive Sound board . Compare Mega CD games to Mega Drive games - Games like Fifa, Pitfall , Sensible Soccer, Bill Walsh college football benefit greatly from massively improved sound effects (not CD music) thanks to the Mega CD PCM chip and those were pretty standard ports and just showed what a difference a more capable chip can do for samples and just look at SEGA Arcades boards did they no use PCM sound chips - but listen to this board FM was the way to go, even in the 90's :p

---

Again, this is obvious, and I didn't suggest otherwise. People keep giving you tech demos of homebrew projects because it demonstrates a good use of the MD hardware, even if you're turning a blind eye to it. You can throw homebrew SNES demos to counter what we throw at you, but it's your choise if you choose not to. Also, I'm pretty sure there is no way to push the SNES sound any further than what Tim Follin and Dean Evans demonstrated in the past, if so, I figure it can't be pushed much further than that. The SNES has already been pushed to it's limits pretty much, the Genesis didn't back then, so almost any comparison with games from back then aren't always 100% fair.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Raijin

The SNES has already been pushed to it's limits pretty much, the Genesis didn't back then, so almost any comparison with games from back then aren't always 100% fair.

---

The vast majority of Genesis games had awful soundtracks thanks to sound drivers like GEMS. GEMS was used in 90% of all Western developed games, including those published by Sega of America and Acclaim. Accolade and Electronic Arts used their own drivers but they weren't much better than GEMS to be honest.

If you want good examples of the MD's sound hardware you gotta stick with Japan:

Sonic series
Streets of Rage series
Shinobi series
Golden Axe series
Phantasy Star series
games by Sunsoft
games by Technosoft
games by NCS/Masaya
games by Taito
games by Namco
games by Konami
games by Data East
etc.pp.

Practically ALL the Japanese Mega Drive games have awesome music. There are literally only two or three Japanese games with bad soundtracks.

People don't like Capcom's MD stuff but personally I do prefer their FM music over their SNES stuff. It's just the voices they messed up in SF2.



The big difference is not that Americans can't do music, the big difference is the sound drivers used:
http://gdri.smspower.org/wiki/index....nd_Engine_List


There are some Western developed games with decent soundtracks, and practically all of them used custom sound drivers (i.e.. _not_ GEMS).


Some tunes by Matt Furniss:










Jesper Kyd:










Novotrade (Gabor Foltan, Csaba Gigor, Laszlo Fazekas):

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Raijin

Again, this is obvious, and I didn't suggest otherwise. People keep giving you tech demos of homebrew projects because it demonstrates a good use of the MD hardware, even if you're turning a blind eye to it. You can throw homebrew SNES demos to counter what we throw at you, but it's your choise if you choose not to. Also, I'm pretty sure there is no way to push the SNES sound any further than what Tim Follin and Dean Evans demonstrated in the past, if so, I figure it can't be pushed much further than that. The SNES has already been pushed to it's limits pretty much, the Genesis didn't back then, so almost any comparison with games from back then aren't always 100% fair.

---

The SNES used add-on chips for everything else, why not an add-on chip to expand the Sound capabilities ;)

In fact, I believe Star Ocean did just that. That was one of the advantages to the SNES, it was easy to integrate add-on chips (though not very practical for home-brewers and if you're comparing base hardware components and capabilities, not very equitable)

I don't know why, but I still love the FM instead of PCM audio, I feel like PCM audio have a lot of impact on games,it just sounds weird, we can compare it with arcade version of street fighter II and super street fighter II, the FM chip always have more punch compare to the pcm Qsound which sounds midi like especially the drum on super street fighter II.

Street Fighter II
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtg0rpjqcwc

Super Street Fighter II
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBPOUOYplS8

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Raijin

Also, I'm pretty sure there is no way to push the SNES sound any further than what Tim Follin and Dean Evans demonstrated in the past, if so, I figure it can't be pushed much further than that.

---

Based on what evidence?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Armoured Priest

The SNES used add-on chips for everything else, why not an add-on chip to expand the Sound capabilities ;)

In fact, I believe Star Ocean did just that. That was one of the advantages to the SNES, it was easy to integrate add-on chips (though not very practical for home-brewers and if you're comparing base hardware components and capabilities, not very equitable)

---

Star Ocean and Tales of Phantasia sound nice, but in terms of sound quality, it isn't much of an increase. Both of those games sound excellent. Much better than the stuff Sakuraba composed for the Genesis in terms of composition style.
There are plenty of SNES tracks that kick any Genesis games ass properly. Power Rangers - The Movie comes to mind, seeing as how there is a Movie version of that game for both systems that is good. Composition wise, the SNES wins it for the sheer style and the fact that the tracks are original, not just covers like the Genesis version, and the game itself is more enjoyable, since it isn't just beat up enemies on one screen for 60 seconds each time the screen stops scrolling. I still enjoy that game and it's soundtrack though, naturally.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Thenewguy

Based on what evidence?

---

Read what I said more clearly.

"I'm pretty sure there is no way to push the SNES sound any further than what Tim Follin and Dean Evans demonstrated in the past, if so, I figure it can't be pushed much further than that."

There is no evidence, it is merely an educated guess going by not only the great compositions in Follin and Evans' tracks, but the fact that the quality of said tracks are of the highest quality the SNES has to offer. I am saying, it MAY be possible, but to me, it doesn't seem likely. Nothing more.

Honestly I'd rate the Genesis version of MMPR the Movie over the SNES one because it uses music from the show and does so quite well.

Here is a pretty good comparison between similar tracks. Though the SNES one is from the fighting game, it's pretty much an extended version of the title screen music for the movie game:





Honestly I'd say the Genesis version captures the original a bit better. The SNES one sounds a bit too choppy.

That's weird, they used the same track for Fighting Edition and the Title from The Movie version.

In any case, yeah, I prefer the Genesis title music to the SNES one slightly. But the title alone can't outdo the brilliance of the rest of the game imo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gv3rOCJPF5M

It doesn't have this though:



The music for the show was written to get you excited about the Fight scenes. So when it's used in the game it does just that. While the SNES one does have some nice original tracks, it's just not the same. Being a Power Rangers fan in the 90's it made a pretty big impact having a game that felt like the you were playing the show you liked.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

It doesn't have this though:



The music for the show was written to get you excited about the Fight scenes. So when it's used in the game it does just that. While the SNES one does have some nice original tracks, it's just not the same. Being a Power Rangers fan in the 90's it made a pretty big impact having a game that felt like the you were playing the show you liked.

---

I felt that way back then, because I also was a big fan of Power Rangers. Then I eventually played the SNES version and was blown away by it's soundtrack. We all have our tastes though, and it doesn't mean I dislike the Genesis soundtrack, not at all.

abnormally high standards.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kamahl

You're either gay or you have abnormally high standards.

---

I asked tiido about this one. He says it's the interpolation. I believe tiido since disabling interpolation in zsnes makes everything sound awesome. Apparently interpolation is built right into the snes sound chip so...uhh...yeah..pretty sure it's impossible to disable it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by evilevoix

What made the SNES sound muddy again? Something was posted before but I missed it?

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Armoured Priest

The SNES used add-on chips for everything else, why not an add-on chip to expand the Sound capabilities ;)

In fact, I believe Star Ocean did just that. That was one of the advantages to the SNES, it was easy to integrate add-on chips (though not very practical for home-brewers and if you're comparing base hardware components and capabilities, not very equitable)

---

I've seen this statement a few times, but kept forgetting to comment on it. It's no harder to use add-on chips with the MD than with the SNES. I think the SVP proved that. There was merely less need for add-on chips until 3D polygon games became all the rage. Most SNES add-on chips either helped with decompressing data, or with speeding up math operations the 65816 sucked at that the 68000 didn't.

It is easier to add addon chips to MD than it is to SNES, there's a whole lot of nice signals on MD cartslot that aren't on SNES.

I'm still catching up on this thread. The music in jester's challenge sonic hack RULES! As for what mrsega said about the mark 3 main processor being a yamaha chip and a bunch of other stuff.....mega fail.....but it's okay we all make silly mistakes.

I wish more genesis games had better sound programming. There's so many great genesis games I came across where I wished the music had been done better (becuase I know it's possible).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Raijin

That's weird, they used the same track for Fighting Edition and the Title from The Movie version.

In any case, yeah, I prefer the Genesis title music to the SNES one slightly. But the title alone can't outdo the brilliance of the rest of the game imo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gv3rOCJPF5M

---

Iwatsuki is god like, all of his soundtracks are amazing.

Quote:

---

Again, this is obvious, and I didn't suggest otherwise. People keep giving you tech demos of homebrew projects because it demonstrates a good use of the MD hardware

---

Techo demo's done years latter its not fair at all - Even youtube has only been going for a few years and that's overlooking the huge community and tools any bidding coder has to fall back on now - Stuff that simply wasn't there in the early 1990's .In the old Days the likes of Core were using an Amgia 500 to developer MD games and a Art package like Deluxe II . The sound programs and Art packages one can download for free now at way way in advanced to what was available to programmers in the early 1990's

Quote:

---

The SNES used add-on chips for everything else, why not an add-on chip to expand the Sound capabilities

---

many of the better SNES games never used a extra chip and in a lot of cases looked or in most sounded better than the MD . Games like F-Zero, Contra III , SF II, Axelay

Also if there was no issues with the MD sound - Why the need to for the Mega CD to add a sound chip, why the need for VR on the MD to add a extra channel and why the need for 32X to add extra channels - Listen to this board they were all utterly pointless

I haven't even posted a video of this yet







And here's the MD trying to do the same (waits for homebew vids to be posted back )

Here, let me just quote the OP.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 5233

I've been studying 68K assembly to experiment with Genesis homebrew and hacking, among other things.

I however would like to know the pros and cons of SNES and Genesis hardware, besides graphics and sound, as I may also be interested in SNES homebrew. Supposedly Genesis is the fastest since it has 7mhz CPU, however I don't know how it performs when everything is put together.

I know SNES has mode7 but that's simply off the bat. I mean, can't you create a similar engine for a Genesis game? And what about the space limitations? Answers to these and other questions appreciated, thanks.

---

Seems to me that anything is fair game, tech demos, homebrew or not, or when it was released.

Quote:

---

The demos we do have are from homebrewers often working with whatever tools have been developed by various fans in their own spare time. Without official dev kits and tech support from Sega

---

There's a huge community around today , that just wasn't there in the old days . I believe the likes of Dave Perry had to lie to get a Mega Drive technical manual and one where it was badly translated. Those are issues that no bedroom coder will have today Its all on-line and there's a huge community to ask should you have any issues, nothing of which was around inthe early 90's , never mind 88 when the MD hit the market . That's the trouble with the internet today , people who can do a bit of coding in their space time , the odd make up effects or Guitar rifts and so on All now think they're better than SEGA, Tom Savini or Van Halen or Dimedag Darrell when all the secrets of the trade are up on-line ect and where they done it all decades ago. Yet most of these upstarts are stuck in dead end jobs and will never make a retail game in their life's , but my GOD they know more about the machines than SEGA who made the console in the 1st place or they know more about effects than Tom .

Ok its generalising, but it does annoy me when I see people who can do the odd bit of code, think they know more and they're above everyone else and what they say is the Gospel.

You don't need homebrew to prove the sound capabilities of the Mega Drive, just see the other page.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zebbe

You don't need homebrew to prove the sound capabilities of the Mega Drive, just see the other page.

---

I don't need the other page . I played my fav share of MD games I'm well aware it can produced amazing music Just that it would come a 2nd best when it came to samples or trying to emu Electric guitars

Wow TA, you AGAIN posted a Tim Follin soundtrack with a cheap midi->fm conversion for the genesis. Yet homebrew isn't fair to show what a chip can do? Right.

Quote:

---

Wow TA, you AGAIN posted a Tim Follin soundtrack with a cheap midi->fm conversion for the genesis

---

Yeah a actual real Mega Drive game amazing I know (insert its running on emu here) . Now if the Mega Drive had a chip equal to that of the Snes or the Amiga I doubt it would have lost out in the port .After all even piss poor Saturn ports of PS games tended no to lose out Big time in the sound dept, but there again the Saturn had a rather decent sound chip

You're missing the point TA. I dare say it's a rule, that one should never compare anything from the SNES by Tim Follin to anything that isn't Tim Follin himself. It simply isn't fair to compare pretty much the god of limitations to anything other than his own self.

Also, once again, MD guitars > SNES guitars by a WIDE margin.

Yes TA, it's very likely that if the MD had exactly the same hardware as the SNES the ports would be closer, since they wouldn't have to spend money remaking the assets.

Or maybe, just maybe, if they had instead... I don't know... hired an actual musician (maybe even Tim Follin himself) to do the Mega Drive versions music, maybe, just maybe, it wouldn't be a cheap midi-fm conversion which sounds like utter garbage.

Like say... was done for Wolfchild, where almost all MD songs are better. Or the Lion King, where plenty of the MD songs are better, or Hyperstone Heist, where plenty of the MD songs are better.

Or what about the reverse TA? Thunder Spirits. Remember that? Cheap samples of FM instruments, essentially the reverse of what happened with Rock & Roll Racing.
How does it sound?

You just went full retard mate. Never go full retard.

TA, how do you think that huge community came about? You act like all these wonderful tools were just dropped in the best homebrew programmers laps. Homebrew people worked their butts off getting the tools we have today to the level they are at. It was done with hardwork starting from a point worse than most developers had back in the 90's. Those developers at least had development kits, official documentation, official tools, and all the time they needed to figure it out. Homebrew people had none of that. A lot of it was done with trial and error and the few leaked documents available.

Now, this thread was NEVER about comparing games and port quality. It was about purely what the hardware can do. In that sense homebrew is perfectly fair to bring up. Especially considering that this thread was made to get information for homebrew purposes. Who cares if few people back in the 90's could write well timed Z80 sound drivers that allowed multiple PCM channels? Today skilled homebrew programmers can do that and for the sake of comparing pure hardware capabilities it's a fair comparison of what it can do. Now if people were putting 32 channel PCM chips in homebrew Genesis carts and writing games to use them, I'd agree with you that that would be a bit unfair. But that's not whats going on. All these homebrew programs run on purely stock hardware.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Christuserloeser

The vast majority of Genesis games had awful soundtracks thanks to sound drivers like GEMS. GEMS was used in 90% of all Western developed games, including those published by Sega of America and Acclaim. Accolade and Electronic Arts used their own drivers but they weren't much better than GEMS to be honest.

If you want good examples of the MD's sound hardware you gotta stick with Japan. [...] Practically ALL the Japanese Mega Drive games have awesome music.

The big difference is not that Americans can't do music, the big difference is the sound drivers used:
http://gdri.smspower.org/wiki/index....nd_Engine_List

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

Herp da derp derpa derp. A derpity Rock 'n Roll Racing! A herp derp herpity derpity derp.

---

Ah, yeah, Accolade's Sound Images driver. Used in critically acclaimed MD games like Double Dragon 1 and 3, known for their outstanding sound quality.

Undeniable proof the YM2612 sucks.

Haha all I hear from him is derpity derp doo too.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

And here's the MD trying to do the same (waits for homebew vids to be posted back )

---

MUSHA Full Metal Fighter Level 1

MUSHA Devine Device

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ueZ6tvqhk8U

He doesn't care what the OP wants. TA cares about only what's going through his trolling mind.

The only facts TA believes are what his vintage 90's gaming magazines tell him. These are the only facts that matter and are the only ones reliable. All other information are fanboy lies and emulated illusions. Homebrew doesn't count because it's clearly cheating. Programming in Assembly and C today is far more advanced and efficient than it was 20 years ago. There's also the fact to consider that as the Genesis hardware ages it learns new abilities which make any new games written to use these new abilities unfair to use in comparisons. The SNES hardware does not do this, so any new Genesis software is not fair to bring up.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TmEE

It is easier to add addon chips to MD than it is to SNES, there's a whole lot of nice signals on MD cartslot that aren't on SNES.

---

That's why I said is was "not harder" to add chips to the MD. The 68000 has a good bus for adding stuff, and the MD cart slot has almost every signal you'd ever need - and then some. But because the SNES constantly added chips, people somehow feel the MD must not have been able to have add-ons or SEGA would have taken that path, too.