the GBA as a 16 Bit Console? .... + a Poll

The GBA library has some gems and the machine quite a bit of power; on a tv screen it looks good and plays comfortably enough one can forget its games are meant to be portable and were released in the PS2 era. So let’s forget chronology and economy and pretend the GBA was released as a console during the 16 bit days.
Why would Nintendo have released another machine with the SNES thriving on the market? They had planned to anyway, the Nintendo Playstation, so if it helps your make-belief pretend this topic’s fictional consolised GBA ran optical disks rather than cartridges and came either as an add-on to the SNES or as an expensive stand-alone, sort of like a Nintendo Neptune. Also ignore the real world unlikelihood of Nintendo’s releasing such an expensive machine.
Let’s say it came out for Christmas `93 worldwide.
Any GBA games that provide multiplayer through links would do so through normal console controller ports.
You can pretend Sega's games came out on this Nintendo machine because Sega needed to raise funds for the Saturn. It's a What-If thread people.

The question is: had the GBA, with its actual library, strengths, and faults, been a console in the 16 bit era how would it have fared against the competition and how would you rank its games against those of the MD/MCD/32X, stock SNES, Duo, and NeoGeo?

The GBA is very similar to the 32X in capability. In fact, looking at the GBA library gives a great idea of what the 32X could have been if it hadn't been canceled.

It would probably rank second to last for me (I love the Neo Geo but it doesn't offer enough variety outside of arcade design so it gets fifth).

That's not say it wouldn't have been a cool console.

- In this hypothetical world where its library existed back then, it would have had unique Castlevania games pre-SotN.
- Astro Boy fits in alongside games like Gunstar Heroes quality-wise but Treasure's other GBA games don't so the Genesis still has a big advantage there.
- Having two good Metroid games on one system would be a plus although neither is as good as Super Metroid.
- Having strategy games like Fire Emblem and Advance Wars in English would have made it one of the best consoles for that genre.
- The Wario games, Ninja Five-O, Dotstream, Double Dragon Advance, etc. add to the system's line up of good games but overall the GBA doesn't grip me with as much awesome stuff as the Genesis, SNES, or Duo.

I'd say the MegaMan Z games were solid enough to make the system memorable.

It had some interesting character designs and a few catchy tunes,
nothing that blows X or the NES ones out of the water, but still good.
I'd actually say the musical compositions in this series reminds me more of the music in MM: Legends than X or classic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2s9me8HgZ8 was a pretty interesting level for example,
Really loved the music and how they used some rather subtle rotation for the floating iceblocks.

I love the GBA hardware, but most games don't appear that different from what the SNES was already capable of. Games like Ecks vs Sever, Doom, other FPS, and games with a lot of scaling are beyond what the SNES can do, but I feel like people would have looked at it like they look at the Sega CD, as in it didn't add enough new stuff to the regular console. Of course that's nowhere near true for the Sega CD and wouldn't be true for the hypothetical GBA add on, but the casual gamer probably wouldn't appreciate the difference.

Are we talking still with gameplay in a window?

The entire library released at launch?

Why 93'?

Personally if we were talking about 92', and no gameplay window (ie some kind of resolution change), I would say that the GBA would utterly crush the SNES and Mega Drive. I mean this system would have both Mario, and Sonic on it, as well as a pretty respectable port of Doom, full support from all companies (many of which were historically either allied with Nintendo or Sega), and hardware that could do fast + colourful + 3D.

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Originally Posted by Thenewguy

Are we talking still with gameplay in a window?

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No, full screen resolution, optimised in every way. Standard output of the day by region.

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The entire library released at launch?

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No, assume that its hypothetical release order reflects its real release order with whatever degree of compression makes sense to you. I see the GBA Console as thriving at least as long as the SNES held on but for those who see a shorter lifespan a release compression of two or three years to one should work.

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Why 93'?

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I originally had `92 but it seemed too soon for such a hulking upgrade (in power and cost) after the SNES. This way it's betwixt the MCD and 32X.

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Originally Posted by StarMist

Also, no GBA versions of SNES/MD/etc games would release before the original--nor reasonably within 12 months.

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Ah, now this is a huge change.

Before this we actually had Street Fighter Alpha III on Nintendo Atlantis with 40 odd playable characters directly going up against Super Street Fighter II on SNES/MD, and Doom II, Comix Zone, Breath of Fire II, and a hoard of other games possibly premiering here instead of where they actually did.

This kind of over complicates everything now.

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Originally Posted by Thenewguy

This kind of over complicates everything now.

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you're right: I emended it.

This question is so fantastic we might as well have every GBA title up for grabs pell mell. --- Still each poster is welcome to interpret release order/timeline on his own.

also = was that your take on strictly the market side or is that how you feel about the library as well?

Cool thread idea. I still find the snes, genesis, and turbografx with cd attachment to be better systems than the gba.

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Originally Posted by StarMist

also = was that your take on strictly the market side or is that how you feel about the library as well?

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I was talking about the market side, but I tend to feel the same about the library anyway.

To me the GBA is like a hybrid of the Genesis and SNES with most of their strengths and none of their weaknesses, on top of that there's some FPS games, and 3D stuff thrown in too for good measure.

I find the GBA pretty dam amazing, such a little fucker yet has so much power than the genesis or snes.

Here are techo demos I found that show the hardware of these devices.

GBA


SEGA 32X


I have to say that the 32x looks better in comparison.

The sound capabilities of the GBA are just shit. Snes and Genesis clearly win in that Area.

Graphically, I think GBA is far superior to both.

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Originally Posted by Thenewguy

I was talking about the market side, but I tend to feel the same about the library anyway.

To me the GBA is like a hybrid of the Genesis and SNES with most of their strengths and none of their weaknesses, on top of that there's some FPS games, and 3D stuff thrown in too for good measure.

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100% this.
The GBA library would've murdered the competition had it been released at that time.
brb best strategy games, 3 insane castlevanias, 2 metroids, sonic, mario, best version of SSFII, etc. etc. Would kill every genre except shmups and possibly beat em ups.

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Originally Posted by Olls

100% this.
The GBA library would've murdered the competition had it been released at that time.
brb best strategy games, 3 insane castlevanias, 2 metroids, sonic, mario, best version of SSFII, etc. etc. Would kill every genre except shmups and possibly beat em ups.

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Shmups yeah but it had some nice beat em ups.

Are we talking about link-up turning to split screen? IE 4 player splitscreen Mario Kart, F-Zero, 2-player Doom co-op etc?

Possibly, I can't recall.
It has River City Ransom, Comix Zone, Final Fight, TMNT and a Double Dragon game.
If it had Golden Axe and Streets of Rage it would've been the ultimate beat em up console.

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Originally Posted by Thenewguy

Are we talking about link-up turning to split screen? IE 4 player splitscreen Mario Kart, F-Zero, 2-player Doom co-op etc?

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I'm afraid so. Four Swords too.

Who voted "about even with the MCD/32X", honestly? There are maybe 5 - 10 good games on those systems, combined.

GameCube + GB Player + SNES controller adapter from retrousb.com + overpriced component cables = something closely resembling a console.

I'd say it's worth it for the 2D gaming.

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Originally Posted by Olls

Possibly, I can't recall.
It has River City Ransom, Comix Zone, Final Fight, TMNT and a Double Dragon game.
If it had Golden Axe and Streets of Rage it would've been the ultimate beat em up console.

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Golden Axe is on GBA (Sega Smash Pack) but its not supposed to be a great port.

There's also Advance Guardian Heroes, and Gekido.

Some of the license games are also supposedly decent

The ARM7 and SH2 are 32bit CPUs. Just sayin. :D

Most of the GBA library I noticed were down ports of PS2 games, and movie licensed games, that would be incredibly anachronistic to compare to actual 16-bit software. I can't predict how audiences would have received all of those Disney movie games and Naruto when there was no corresponding show. A bunch of the ROMs I have are 8MB, 64Mbit, or larger ROMs (128Mbit) that weren't practical in the 16-bit era.

For these reasons I think it would have flopped due to system-game cost and too many "weird" games nobody got the references for. It would have fared about a well as the TG16-DUO.

I'll be happy be reminded of more good GBA games I might be forgetting but I'm surprised people would put the system in the same league as the Genesis+Sega CD.

Mario games on GBA are mostly just weak ports and the Sonic Advance games are nothing compared to the Genesis games. Combining them still makes the Genesis and SNES look good.

The adventure genre sucks on GBA except for Phoenix Wright which wasn't in English while the Sega CD has Snatcher, Rise of the Dragon, and Monkey Island. It's not a major genre on console but I always felt it was a strength the Genesis had over its non-PC competition.

The GBA isn't so hot for for run 'n guns. The Genesis has Contra HC, Gunstar Heroes, Alien Soldier, Alien 3, Terminator games, Turrican games, etc. - many of the best across multiple regional styles.

The GBA kind of blows for Western-developed games outside of overhead racers: no Flashback, Out of this World (unless we count the rom never sold in stores), Shadowrun, etc. and also had inferior ports of games like Ecco and Earthworm Jim.

I'll take three Genesis Shinobis combined over one Ninja Five-O. The lack of good action-platformers on GBA really disappointed me. I have the same complaint about the DS, so many 2d games but not enough in the genres I want.

I agree the GBA would beat the 16-bit consoles at the FPS genre. Its line up wouldn't wow anyone playing Doom-era PC games but it would still be a nice bonus compared to other consoles.

If it wasn't for Super Drop Zone and Gradius, I would probably forget the shooter genre existed on GBA. Even the SNES destroys it here.

I thnk it has a pretty solid library. The GBA doesn't have great sound output, but if it was a real console, that might have been better.

I like the list of solid games though:

Advance Wars
Advance Wars 2: Black Hole Rising
Fire Emblem
Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones
F-Zero: GP Legend
Gradius Galaxies
Drill Dozer
Rebel Star: Tactical Command
Sigma Star Saga
The Legend of Zelda: The Manish Cap
Advance Wars 2: Black Hole Rising
Mario Golf: Advance Tour
Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga
Golden Sun
Golden Sun: The Lost Age
Gunstar Superheroes
Pinball of the Dead
Final Fantasy I&II: Dawn of Souls
Sword of Mana
Kingdom Hearts: Chain of Memories
Wario Ware: Twisted
Mario vs. Donkey Kong
Metroid: Zero Mission
Metroid: Fusion
Castlevania: Circle of the Moon
Castlevania: Harmony of Dissonance
Castlevania: Aria of Sorrow
Tales of Phantasia
Riviera: The Promised Land
Kirby & The Amazing Mirror
MegaMan Battle Network
Alien Homonid
Contra Advance
Game and Watch Gallery 4
Metal Slug Advance
Lady Sia
Astroboy: Omega Factor
Disney's Lilo and Stitch
Sonic Battle
Space Invaders
Iridion II
Super Puzzle Fighter II
Pokemon Pinball
Pokemon (too many to list)


And countless ports of SNES and Genesis classics.

I'd say it holds it own.

First off NZE (and some others) thanks for the two solid replies. Prefacing thus in case I come off rebarbative.

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Originally Posted by NeoZeedeater

I'll be happy be reminded of more good GBA games I might be forgetting but I'm surprised people would put the system in the same league as the Genesis+Sega CD.

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I'll answer with my own evaluations later but bear in mind nobody's distinguishing betwixt market and pure gaming supremacy. There's a flash vs substance element here and I think it's mostly being weighed according to flash.

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Mario games on GBA are mostly just weak ports and the Sonic Advance games are nothing compared to the Genesis games. Combining them still makes the Genesis and SNES look good.

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SMB4A (SMB3) has the E-Reader bonus lvs but I agree it's nothing new and the voice fx hurt it. The DKCs would fall in here as well.

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The GBA isn't so hot for for run 'n guns.

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Add Metalgun Slinger, though it probably belongs more to platformers. Not sure where one puts the Metroids or the Mega Man games. Scurge: the Hive as an overhead isometric? Astro Boy belongs too.

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The GBA kind of blows for Western-developed games outside of overhead racers: no Flashback, Out of this World (unless we count the rom never sold in stores), Shadowrun, etc.

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^ Metroid I suppose.

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and also had inferior ports of games like Ecco and Earthworm Jim.

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I was surprised to see Comix Zone mentioned so much, another weak port.

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If it wasn't for Super Drop Zone and Gradius, I would probably forget the shooter genre existed on GBA. Even the SNES destroys it here.

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Iridion II.

GBA also has a huge ARPG advantage with the Zeldas and a sea of RPGs. Its JP nonaction exclusives are weak from what I've seen but it's very strong for brawlers and fighters. Also has rhythm games, a genre that shouldn't be undervalued whether one plays them oneself.

@ gamevet = good list but Colors is DS, no?

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Originally Posted by NeoZeedeater

The GBA isn't so hot for for run 'n guns. The Genesis has Contra HC, Gunstar Heroes, Alien Soldier, Alien 3, Terminator games, Turrican games, etc. - many of the best across multiple regional styles.

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The GBA does have Metal Slug Advance and Contra Advance.

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Originally Posted by StarMist

@ gamevet = good list but Colors is DS, no?

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Oops!

You're right! I guess I got that title stuck in my head, because I'd bought a Sonic DS game for a kid (Christmas wish tree) a couple of years ago. The ticket only said that the kid wanted a Sonic or Pokemon title for his DS and I ended up buying him the Sonic collection. It was after I'd bought the title, that I'd realized he may have wanted the recently released Sonic Colors.

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Originally Posted by StarMist

Scurge: the Hive as an overhead isometric? Astro Boy belongs too.

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I wouldn't count Astro Boy as a run 'n gun as it's mostly about punching. And Scurge: The Hive is pretty slow paced from what I recall, more in the vein of old-school Spectrum action-adventures than run 'n guns. I have the DS version; it's okay but I'm not that into it.

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Iridion II.

GBA also has a huge ARPG advantage with the Zeldas and a sea of RPGs. Its JP nonaction exclusives are weak from what I've seen but it's very strong for brawlers and fighters. Also has rhythm games, a genre that shouldn't be undervalued whether one plays them oneself.

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Iridion II seemed to be more style than substance to me but I'll give it another shot some time.

I don't see a huge advantage with ARPG and Zelda type stuff on GBA. A Link to the Past w/ Four Swords and Boktai are cool but as much as I wanted to love Minish Cap, I find its overworld uninspired. The Genesis has some strong games in the genre like Landstalker, Monster World, Crusader of Centy.

Fair enough on RPGs. I felt the RPG genre was a bit archaic on GBA given some advancements on PC and console but had its games been released years earlier, I probably would have been more into them. For this thread I shouldn't compare the games against late '90s stuff.

Rhythm Tengoku's certainly a worthy game for its genre. There's no 16-bit era equivalent. I can't think of any other good rhythm games on GBA.

I was also a bit disappointed with the pinball game selection on GBA. There were some okay ones but nothing I liked as much as Dragon's Fury/Devil's Crush.

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Originally Posted by gamevet

The GBA does have Metal Slug Advance and Contra Advance.

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Yeah, I remembered them. I like these games but the Genesis selection for the genre has a lot more to offer.

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Originally Posted by NeoZeedeater

Mario games on GBA are mostly just weak ports and the Sonic Advance games are nothing compared to the Genesis games. Combining them still makes the Genesis and SNES look good.

The GBA isn't so hot for for run 'n guns. The Genesis has Contra HC, Gunstar Heroes, Alien Soldier, Alien 3, Terminator games, Turrican games, etc. - many of the best across multiple regional styles.

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Mmh, I think most would agree that the Sonic Advance games are still the second best Sonic games (right behind the Genesis trilogy) and at least resemble the originals the most. So that's not a huge drawback.
The Mario games are pretty solid ports of all the SNES and NES platformers. It also has Kart, Tennis, Golf, RPG and Pinball, which are all good original Mario titles. Granted, the lack of an original platformer is a little disturbing, but it has Wario Land 4, and plenty of other great (action-)platformers. I don't understand how you can say the lineup is disappointing. Astro Boy, Mega Man, Metroid, Castlevania, Kirby, Klonoa, DKC, Lady Sia, etc. Even Jazz Jackrabbit, for some nostalgic PC platforming goodness.
Hard to say which console wins here, since they all have a truckload of great platformers. I'd call it even.

The GBA definitely holds its own in the run 'n gun genre: Alien Hominid, Contra Advance, Gunstar Super Heroes, Lilo & Stitch (!) and Metal Slug Advance can compete with Mega Drive's best.

Strategy games: as mentioned, no contest. Advance Wars, Fire Emblem, FF: Tactics. It even has a Shining Force game, although I have no idea what that one's like.

(A)RPGs: it has the first three PS games, five FF games, Robot Taisen OG, Sword of Mana, Tales of Phantasia, all of the Mother (Earthbound) games, Zelda, and of course Golden Sun. Then again, the Mega Drive wasn't known for its stellar RPGs. It'd probably also beat the SNES in this category, although it lacks Chrono Trigger.

FPS: not my genre and it is a little unfair to compare, because of the stronger hardware and FPS games were just on the rise back in '93.

shmups: it loses here, but I like that they ported one of my MD faves, Steel Empire.

sports games: yeah, okay.

racing: the racing games on GBA all suck balls, except for Mario Kart and Rock & Roll Racing.

fighting: best version of SSFII. Need I say more?

beat em ups: already covered that.
Oh yeah: it has Altered Beast, which is just as crappy as the Mega Drive version. Except with a save function.

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Originally Posted by Olls

Strategy games: as mentioned, no contest. Advance Wars, Fire Emblem, FF: Tactics. It even has a Shining Force game, although I have no idea what that one's like.

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Shining Force is the same with "enhanced" (worse) graphics. It has more titles in the SRPG vein but I've no clue how it fares for military type strategy, one of the MD's forte's--Herzog Zwei, Warsong, Langrisser 2, numerous Koei games. And there's no chance in hell it matches up to the SFC for SRPGs.

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shmups: it loses here, but I like that they ported one of my MD faves, Steel Empire.

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I've only seen talk this port was trashed. I'll give it a spin.

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racing: the racing games on GBA all suck balls, except for Mario Kart and Rock & Roll Racing.

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There's a Sega Rally version which even at 50% would have been fantastic for the day. Also Classic Series NES Excitebike added saving (!).

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fighting: best version of SSFII. Need I say more?

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Flame of Recca.

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I don't see a huge advantage with ARPG and Zelda type stuff on GBA. A Link to the Past w/ Four Swords and Boktai are cool but as much as I wanted to love Minish Cap, I find its overworld uninspired. The Genesis has some strong games in the genre like Landstalker, Monster World, Crusader of Centy.

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My fault, was going to add a couple more and got distracted. 2 Shining Soul games, Scurge (it's a gun and keycard game so it goes here if it doesn't qualify as R&G for you), Juka and the Monophonic Menace which is kiddy and I've yet to try extensively but am inclined to like for the title, a serviceable PoP Sands of Time though iso would've been better than 2D, Slime Morimori (a DQ game), and the Shaman King series I can't vouch for yet.
MD of course has King Colossus as well.....Agreed that Minish Cap's a little off feeling but that also makes it refreshing from the more recent Zeldas and back in the 16 bit days would've been less pronounced. It's also a gorgeous game with lots to do. Quite a few of the MD+ games I'm cold to but Popful Mail is quite strong.

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Originally Posted by Thenewguy

To me the GBA is like a hybrid of the Genesis and SNES with most of their strengths and none of their weaknesses, on top of that there's some FPS games, and 3D stuff thrown in too for good measure.

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Nailed it. I've always loved the GBA, especially the SP with that backlit screen. Portable gaming bliss.

Third best gaming library, IMO. Not so much the individual titles (not as memorable as some SNES games for example, at least not yet), but variety (tons of good stuff in almost every genre imaginable) and having both sega and nintendo's games on it is what makes it stand out.

Being able to play A Link to The Past in its full glory (on the go) was probably the best thing to happen to handhelds since...handhelds.

The only thing about this hypothetical situation is the GBA's hardware isn't the only thing that was better, game design itself had changed by the time the GBA was released. If the hardware was around in the 16-bit era it would've probably had the same kind of games that were on the other consoles at the time, but it would likely have the absolute best versions of them.

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Originally Posted by Obviously

The only thing about this hypothetical situation is the GBA's hardware isn't the only thing that was better, game design itself had changed by the time the GBA was released.

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I think so too, but I cannot explain this properly. Especially not on a retro gaming board.
I'm not a huge sucker for newer games, but they are almost always more refined.

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Originally Posted by Olls

I'm not a huge sucker for newer games, but they are almost always more refined.

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Triple A titles are usually much more formulaic and less experimental. They're more refined because they're exactly that, a refined formula being reused. Any modern FPS you play will typically play well, and do everything at least semi-competently unless it's filled with bugs. However, they'll probably *feel* very like one another because, well, they're using a safe, market tested formula.

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Originally Posted by Olls

racing: the racing games on GBA all suck balls, except for Mario Kart and Rock & Roll Racing.

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?

Personally I think the GBA is waay out in front for racing games, 4 player Mario Kart, 4 player F-Zero, 4 player Krazy Racers, Racing Gears Advance, Advance GT 3, Colin Mcrae Rally, V-Rally 3, Top Gear Rally, Motoracer Advance, Karnaaj Rally etc.

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Originally Posted by sheath

Most of the GBA library I noticed were down ports of PS2 games, and movie licensed games, that would be incredibly anachronistic to compare to actual 16-bit software. I can't predict how audiences would have received all of those Disney movie games and Naruto when there was no corresponding show. A bunch of the ROMs I have are 8MB, 64Mbit, or larger ROMs (128Mbit) that weren't practical in the 16-bit era.

For these reasons I think it would have flopped due to system-game cost and too many "weird" games nobody got the references for. It would have fared about a well as the TG16-DUO.

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I'm more inclined to side with this. You can't just take the GBA, shove it in a console case and take it back to 1993 and expect it to be a success. It would have cost too much and it just doesn't work out. This is by far one of the most silly alternate reality theories I've seen on these forums. While we're at it let's take the PS3 back to 1977 and release it. It will be an instant hit!