Best graphic of the 16 bit era..

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

The N64 was 64 bit though. It has nothing to do with twice as powerful, the CPU is simply capable of 64-bit operations.

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Nothing to do with power? Well thats how it was touted back in the day. Whats the point of flaunting the "bitness" if it does not equate to more power?

I said it had nothing to do with being TWICE as powerful. It does give it some advantages and can make it more powerful though, as those 64-bit operations as well as the wider buses can help significantly with performance. This will equate to a more powerful system, just not Twice as powerful.

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

I said it had nothing to do with being TWICE as powerful. It does give it some advantages and can make it more powerful though, as those 64-bit operations as well as the wider buses can help significantly with performance. This will equate to a more powerful system, just not Twice as powerful.

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N64 graphics were only marginally better, if any, than the competition.

Texture wise yes, but honestly I felt the N64's 3D had a much more solid feel to it with less glitchy rendering. That and the Trilinear filtering really made a difference. The Saturn was able to give it a run for it's money no doubt with it's best offerings like Virtua Fighter 2, Sonic R, Sonic Jam, etc. but a lot of 3D games on the Saturn and PS1 felt like the world they were showing was going to fall apart any minute.

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

The N64 was 64 bit though. It has nothing to do with twice as powerful, the CPU is simply capable of 64-bit operations. The Dreamcast I remember hearing as 128-bit, but I'm not sure how much merit that has. If I remember correctly the CPU is 64-bit with a 64-bit bus but the FPU is capable of 128-bit operations or something like that.

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The N64's main CPU is the R4300, which is indeed a 64-bit processor. The DC is 32-bit as that is what the SH4 is - a 32-bit CPU. The Jaguar could make a case for being either a 16-bit system, or a 32-bit system: if the 68000 is the main processor, it's a 16-bit system; if Tom is the main processor (and it CAN be used as the main processor), it's a 32-bit system. In no way is the Jaguar a 64-bit system. Period. Funny enough, Nintendos last two consoles (NGC and Wii) are both 32-bit consoles - they went backwards after finding that bitness has nothing to do with speed. :lol:

The PS2 had a 64-bit CPU, the PS3 and XBox 360 both have 64-bit CPUs.

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Originally Posted by Breetai

The Neo Geo AES is not a home console in the regular sense that we generally think of, and it was never meant to be. It's a consolidated arcade board that was semi-mass marketed at a slightly reduced price. It's in a different class than home consoles are.

SNES or Genny games costing a few dollars more than average have nothing to do with it. It's a strawman argument.


I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume that you have very little experience with arcade boards. Neo Geo games are not even close to being the only arcade games on a cartridge.

The Amiga, ST and X68000 all use the same CPU as the Genesis and the Neo Geo. Does that mean it also has the same setup? :daze:

Genesis, SNES and Turbografx-16 are 16-bit era home consoles.
Neo Geo, CPS, CPS2, Taito F3, Sega ST-V etc. are all different 16-bit era arcade systems that use cartridges. One of them happened to have a consolized version.

SNES, Genesis, TG-16, Neo Geo.... "one of these things just doesn't belong here, one of these things just isn't the same..." Which one is it?


You opened that can of worms when you left it so open ended to include things like the Neo Geo. If you include the Neo Geo, then you need to include any arcade game. Games released on 16-bit era hardware like the Neo Geo, CPS2, F3, etc. That includes stuff like Virtua Racing, Virtua Fighter, Tekken, Daytona, Ridge Racer, etc. I doubt those are the games you had in mind, but you left that open in the initial post.


WTF?
1. It's still an Neo Geo.
2. That came out in the 32-bit era.

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Many arcade systems had interchangeable carts or cart like devices. Like the Nintendo playchoice, does that make the NES a arcade system? The neo geo was indeed a home console. Pic up any video game mag of the time and it did console style reviews right along with NES, genesis, tg16 and so on.

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Originally Posted by Black_Tiger
Shall we give examples from FM Marty towns, Amiga CD32, 3DO and Jaguar games then?

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These systems were in the 32-bit era for sure.

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Originally Posted by Guntz

Tell me, could you buy Mark of the Wolves for Neo-Geo at Babbages upon release? Or whatever it's 1999 equivalent would be? Or any retail store in the US for that matter?

If the answer is no, then that further drives the point home that at some point, Neo Geo games don't qualify as 16-bit anymore, even they run on "16-bit" hardware. Look at it this way, a Neo Geo game has to have been at the very least released during the lifetime of actual 16-bit home consoles, and maybe even be ported to those systems. When Metal Slug came out in 1996, the 16-bit market was dead and the 32-bit generation was already well underway. Metal Slug was ported to the Saturn and was available on Neo Geo CD. That means Metal Slug was a 5th generation arcade game.

Yes, it's cool that such an old piece of hardware could be capable of playing such new games, but that isn't a reason to compare Mark of the Wolves to a primitive port of Street Fighter 2 on the SNES. It just doesn't make sense.

Besides, the Neo Geo's capability of running such high end games is really quite simple. The system's huge cartridge bus, allowing for a very high ceiling of ROM space, added onto the system's basic hardware features, equals games like Mark of the Wolves and Last Blade 2. Much like any cartridge system, the ROM space, compression, bank switching and other data management tricks amplify the system's basic and advanced hardware features. A late game like Ristar on the Genesis is honestly quite impressive compared to Space Harrier II, an early release. The reason Ristar is so much more advanced is due to more ROM space and better use of the Genesis hardware. Both Space Harrier II and Ristar run on the same exact hardware.



Yes, it's 16-bit. If it wasn't, then the Genesis would also be 24-bit, seeing how it also has a 68000 and a Z80.

Fun fact: Early models and revisions of the Neo Geo (arcade and home) hardware used a regular Z80 instead of the Z80A. Those units today are known to suffer prematurely failing Z80 chips, because SNK would clock Z80 up to the speed of the Z80A.

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It is a decidedly 16 bit device very close in spec to a garden variety MEGA DRIVE. You are arguing that the quality of its games overachieved into the 32-bit era, like a smart kid messing up the bell curve for everyone else. However if you define the 16-bit games within a specific time period ending in 1996 then I can follow that.

The famicom came out in 1983. The playchoice pcb says "1986" on it, I have a box full of playchoice boards. Therefore the nes is a home console that later got an arcade version.

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Originally Posted by evilevoix

Many arcade systems had interchangeable carts or cart like devices. Like the Nintendo playchoice, does that make the NES a arcade system? The neo geo was indeed a home console. Pic up any video game mag of the time and it did console style reviews right along with NES, genesis, tg16 and so on.



These systems were in the 32-bit era for sure.

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The real question is...nes games released in the 16 bit era (1992 we were still getting good nes games) are those counted as 8-bit or 16-bit era games? I guess technically they're from the 16-bit era but they have that feeling of 8-bit being pushed to the limit. I guess no matter what platform the time that the game was originally released defines the era it's from.

The argument of "this game from 1996 was ported to a 5th generation console therefore it's a 5th generation game" I don't agree there. A lot of old stuff gets ported to newer systems....williams arcade classics on the ps2...

Also ristar and space harrior 2 don't run on the "exact same hardware". Having a much larger rom chip is not using the same hardware. They run on the same platform, but having that extra rom space really helps. If space harrior 2 had that extra rom space to play with I'm sure it would have rocked a whole lot more. My personal favourite example is the difference between streets of rage 1 and 2. Both have the same pumping music and gameplay, but having double the rom space allowed for a huge upgrade in graphics for SOR2. It kind of sucks that SOR1 has terrible graphics because otherwise it's a really great game.

Also is it possible to drop a z80a into one of these older neo geos that came with a regular z80 and have it run without any mods?

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Originally Posted by evilevoix

It is a decidedly 16 bit device very close in spec to a garden variety MEGA DRIVE. You are arguing that the quality of its games overachieved into the 32-bit era, like a smart kid messing up the bell curve for everyone else. However if you define the 16-bit games within a specific time period ending in 1996 then I can follow that.

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It displays graphics entirely differently than the Genesis, SNES or TG16 do and depends heavily on ROM size for said graphical capabilities.

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Many arcade systems had interchangeable carts or cart like devices. Like the Nintendo playchoice, does that make the NES a arcade system? The neo geo was indeed a home console. Pic up any video game mag of the time and it did console style reviews right along with NES, genesis, tg16 and so on.

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This is one of those situations where common sense is enough for most people there's no need to single out technicalities. It'll only dig you a bigger hole.

Do you even know what a PlayChoice-10 is? How many PlayChoice-10 games were programmed as arcade games first and console games second? Zero. The PlayChoice-10 doesn't run NES games the same, because they aren't arcade games and don't function as such. So it has extra hardware (BIOS UPGRADES!) for a timer and other stuff so it can just sell you a brief period of time playing console games. Even the games have extra ram. You can't use a convertor to play PC10/NES, Saturn/STV, System-11/PSX games on each other. STV and System-11 is still contemporary console hardware designed for the home market, then taken and adapted for arcades. Neo Geo is the exact opposite. It was designed as a budget arcade solution and was adapted for a home version that was intended to exist outside of the traditional console market.

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It is a decidedly 16 bit device very close in spec to a garden variety MEGA DRIVE.

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You don't understand hardware and cannot judge game quality whatsoever. Even if the MD and Neo Geo had identical spec sheets, any child can look at the actual games running and tell you that the hardware is radically different. Sesame Street has a series dedicated to this and you still somehow are defiant to the end. But separate from the obvious performance output, the Neo Geo and Mega Drive are (surprise!) radically different in spec as well. The PC Engine however is very close in spec to the Mega Drive, is it a member of the "16-bit era"?

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You are arguing that the quality of its games overachieved into the 32-bit era, like a smart kid messing up the bell curve for everyone else. However if you define the 16-bit games within a specific time period ending in 1996 then I can follow that.

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Then why did you say this-

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Shall we give examples from FM Marty towns, Amiga CD32, 3DO and Jaguar games then?

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These systems were in the 32-bit era for sure.

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Seems like the only console you make exceptions for is the one in your sig. But it's not surprising as you also refuse to count the PC Engine as part of the 16-bit era / console generation.

This literally blew me away when I first saw it BITD:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_-OMGTBVZk

yeah the graphics are amazing for sure. Love the shading and highlights

If you consider the Neo Geo a 16-bit console just because it got a home release, what does that make stuff like Capcom CPS 1-2?

Are they also 16-bit?

This whole thread is a mess. We need to re-establish the rules of it so we can resume with the graphics argument. Allowing anything 16-bit will make for a very pointless thread and will result in games from post-2000 winning the thread, so that's out. The Neo Geo isn't really a home console and excluding it would make it easier to focus on the real 16-bit home consoles. I'd rather exclude the Neo Geo than let it in pre-1996.

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Originally Posted by sheath

It displays graphics entirely differently than the Genesis, SNES or TG16 do and depends heavily on ROM size for said graphical capabilities.

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It's a 16 bit home console based on arcade hardware. So is the mega drive. I think only true 16 bit machines during the 16 bit era. This means home consoles that hook up to a tv and are 16-bit. Simple. The thread states 16-bit and ill assume home consoles. The Neo is just that.