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It's listed here 'cause both consoles (3DO and Jaguar) are severely lacking in the fighting department, but the Saturn version is pretty close to the arcade game. I really recommend it if you want to know what that weird fighting game was about.Quote:
Originally Posted by AlecRob
You can have some fun if you learn all the special moves and finishers... It's good fun if you can get it for a low price IMO.
Yeah, my list wasn't meant to be an exhaustive list of all good 3DO or Jaguar games. I was going along with the OP and discussing whether or not I might prefer the Jaguar to the 3DO based on games I enjoy playing. If we are going to get too far into multiplatform comparisons and pissing contests for total library including the PS1 and Saturn negates the entire discussion (in volume, not necessarily quality).
That said, I haven't played about half of the 38 3DO games you listed, nor have I played most of the exclusive (between 3DO and Jaguar) Jaguar games that Sonic Retard listed. At this juncture though, my leaning would be pretty solidly toward the 3DO due to the type and quality of the games I actually own and have played. My Jaguar-32X comparison videos left me feeling let down in regard to the Jaguar library in general and even in comparison to the 32X's tiny library.
No, that's what the OP said:Quote:
Originally Posted by sheath
"That said, if you're willing to throw a lot of money at the Atari Jaguar, I find that you wind up with a better system than the 3DO. Here's a list of games worth playing by my approximation:"
I just listed the 3DO worth playing games IMO since 13 titles sounded like a unfairly short list to be put against the Jaguar's one.
ABF set that direction, I just pointed the "contradictions" I've seen in this thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by sheath
To compare with the other platforms doesn't negate the entire discussion IMO, at least when you know what you're doing and clearly show your arguments. Minded people should not expect the Jaguar games to look better than the PS1's or SAT's since those were fairly more advanced and expensive machines. Even the 3DO's comparison should be taken with a pill if we consider the then actual retail prices.
Also, we are talking about platforms released something like just a year after the Jaguar (PS1 and SAT), it's not like throwing a ton of PS3 shitty emulated compilation into the discussion (which usually happens here thanks to some "rough" members).
Thing is some people seem to need to rage against a console to express its likeness for another due to their lack of good arguments or knowledge about the platforms being discussed. And it always lead to a derailed and inflamed discussion that pass far away from the nice approach set by the OP, in which we could rationally talk about the Jaguar and its games without the usual "failed-console" comments.
Right, bringing emulated compilations and games released five or more years later is what I would prefer to avoid. How does Alone in the Dark compare to the Saturn version of One Eye'd Jack's Revenge? Man I am pretty sure the Saturn game is unplayable.
Also, my list didn't duplicate what the OP already listed between the two systems. So it wasn't just 13 games total, gads I'm pretty sure I own more than that. I own both of the Shock Wave games and an expansion disk of some sort but have hardly played them. They seem a lot like the Scavenger demo for the 32X, but very similar in gameplay style to Cybermorph. Also, if anything simulates Mode 7 on 3DO it'd be Shock Wave. ;)
The Jaguar version has saving, which isn't present in any other version.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barone
The graphics in the PS1 release are in no way superior to the Jaguar version. the Jaguar version runs at a higher resolution, and has more layers of parallax. The people at atari age claim the Jaguar version displays 65,000 colors at once while the PSX version displays 32,000 colors, but I dunno if that's true. In any case, the PSX version is visually inferior.Quote:
-Rayman: The game is available both in the Saturn and PS1 with superior graphics and sounds. Nothing to rejoice about the Jag IMO.
The Saturn version is a bit of a push compared to the jaguar version because the lots of the art is different (exclusive to the saturn). They're displayed at the same resolution, so it comes down to which art you prefer.
The Jaguar version also has a few areas that are very different from their Saturn/PSX version, and band land is way better on the Jaguar because you don't slip and slide around. It's much less frustrating and better designed.
I'd say the 3DO version is actually on par with the Jag CD version. Both feature smaller characters, but they play similarly. The Jaguar version is based on a slightly newer revision, though, so a few moves have had their commands changed. The Jaguar version has a weird parallax bug where certain layers aren't lined up correctly - I never see anybody comment on this. But, for example, in Armadon's level, if you walk all the way to the left, you can see an area in the back most parallax layer where the background has "ended" and a black void is visible behind the spikes. The jaguar version is the ONLY version with this bug.Quote:
-Primal Rage: The 3DO version is superior to the Jaguar CD version, and both versions are still clearly inferior to the Saturn one (framerate, colors, sprites size, etc). The PS1 version has annoying loadings and worse colors when compared to the SAT's.
The saturn version is indeed better than both, but still noticeably inferior to the arcade port. Primal Rage never got a good home port, even the MT2 collection's port is poor. No port, for example, has characters as big as the arcade version (which were enormous for 1995), save the MT2 port, although that has it's own share of problems.
Oh, there is a very good reason to get the Jag version over the 3DO and Sega CD versions - they replaced the original, cool vector cutscenes with poorly rendered, (in the sega CD version) grainy early 90's FMVs. The vast number of players who have played the CD versions and any cart or floppy disk versions of flashback prefer the original vector animations. The CGI animations look pretty bad.Quote:
-Flashback: Surely better than the slow and cut SNES version, but the sfx are nothing spectacular as the Jag fans want to make it appear to be... IMO, the sfx are just as good on the Genesis version, with the Genesis music being better IMO.
The graphics are on par with the 3DO version. The cutscenes are the original ones, so a direct comparison with the 3DO version is a bit bizarre IMO, but compared to the Genesis version, it has nothing but a few on screen colors more AFAIK. The HUD is also very simplistic when compared to the 3DO version IMO.
The Sega CD version has voices for the dialogues and great music during the stages.
I really don't feel like the Jag version is adding something really special among the many versions of this game.
Best graphics? You'd be the first person I've ever seen online who actually prefers the photographed backgrounds to the tiled backgrounds of the Amiga original (which is what the Jaguar version also uses). It's worth noting, however, that all versions of Soccer Kid are wildly different from one another. The Amiga, SNES, and Jaguar versions are most similar, while the 3DO, GBA, and CD32 versions all seem based on different versions. But no two versions are identical.Quote:
Soccer Kid: Best graphics, sfx and one of the few version with all levels despite have been released in many other platforms. Far superior to the Jag version.
Well to put my 2 cents in... I've owned both consoles. My 3DO gets more play than the Atari Jaguar. But that has a lot to do with the expense I would say. I really wanted the Jaguar CD addon. But just could never afford it. I owned 13 Atari Jaguar games. And all were disappointing!
The big push for me to get one was to see how good Doom really was and to play the Alien game. Doom was okay for the time for sure, but lack of save and no music really takes it's toll. The Alien game was like a textured Wolfenstein 3D. And I wish it would of lost the textures because that framerate was horrid.
The ONLY reason I got a 3DO was to play the "enhanced" version of Another World/Out of this World. And it is great!! New soundtrack, smoother gameplay, updated backgrounds. Killer!!
And then expanding on the library, I found all sorts of gems that you guys have already listed. But you know what was crazy stupid fun for the WHOLE FAMILY?? Twisted: The Game Show!! - All you need is 1 controller, pass it around, and it was fun for hours and hours!
Now for the gamer on a budget, 3DO is the way to go for the simple fact that you system isn't copy protected. So for even those really rare games, you can enjoy them.
Now if you got tons of cash to blow, go for the Atari Jaguar. But I think it would be well worth your money to just buy Thirteen 3DO consoles...
I agree about the exposed PCB - it's not a problem to me, and I understand why they did it. However, I've seen people complain about that online numerous times, and I was attempting to address the commonly repeated problems about the presentation of the Jaguar. A catbox sitting behind a jaguar really looks nice, anyways. It would have been disingenuous for me to pretend like most people are fine with the aesthetics of the jaguar, even if that matters little to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by kool kitty89
As for the cart slot, I just keep a memory track in there when I'm not using it to keep dust out :D
You really should try the controller pro, it's a big improvement. I think most people who complain about the original jaguar controller go for superficial problems (olol number pad!!1!) but I think the original controller had a bunch of problems that you have glossed over. Here's a post from a few weeks ago on the subject:
Now, apparently, after speaking with many people about controller woes, it seems like Atari had two revisions of the original 3 button controller. In the second revision, they changed the rocker mechanism in the d-pad so it's not as flat and mushy as in the original, at least according to several people at Atari Age. There is a chance you might have one of these newer controllers and thats why it seems fine to you. In my case, the original controller had no depth to the d-pad, and the buttons had no throw. It was too mushy to be useable, and the pro controller is a huge improvement.Quote:
The original jaguar controller is awful for a number of reasons, but they're not immediately apparent. The size and shape of the controller isn't a problem actually - it has two grips on the back that your fingers fall into and it actually isn't that much different from a Saturn 3D pad or a Dreamcast controller, or even an Xbox 360 controller with the chatpad attached. The number pad also isn't a huge detriment - to the contrary, in a number of games that support it well, it's quite handy. It's way better to be able to select any weapon at a button press in doom than to have to cycle through them all.
The problems with the controller are three-fold. First, this was released during the fight gaming craze, when 6-button setups were neigh required. I've already explained how Primal Rage suffers because of the button arrangement.
Second, the actual placement of the 3 action buttons is horrid - they're more vertically oriented than horizonatally. Thus, to slide between buttons, you need to move your fingers up and down rather than left to right like on most controllers. It also makes hitting two buttons by simply extending the reach of your thumb cumbersome.
Finally, and most problematic is how shallow every button (save the number pad) is. The d-pad especially suffers from this. The buttons and d-pad don't feel like they depress, there is no motion in them. It feels like you're mashing against a mushy solid object. There's no tactile feedback to tell you that you actually pressed the button, and you find yourself wearing your fingers out by over compensating and slamming on the buttons. The d-pad is unresponsive on top of all this, which makes the mushiness feel even more noticable.
The Pro Controller (the 6-button one I posted above) is miles better. It's not a good or great controller, but it's serviceable. Your fingers don't tire using it, and the button placement is more in common with the standard sega 6-button placement. The additional buttons (3 above the normal buttons, plus 2 shoulders) actually map to the number pad (I can't remember which numbers off the top of my head -- I want to say 4, 5, 6, with 1 and 3 being the shoulders) which means it's actually compatible with loads of Jaguar games beyond the ones created especially for it (namely Primal Rage). You can strafe in Alien vs Predator, for example, by using the shoulder buttons.
The problem with the pro controller is how uncommon and expensive they are. Expect to pay well over $100 for one. Still, if you want to try your damndest to actually enjoy a jaguar, price not withstanding, it's essential. Atari really, really screwed up with the normal pad, even though, again, the most often cited complaints are actually superficial and don't touch on the real problems with it.
Yeah, I have a 2 MB release, and I couldn't understand why Skylar repeated herself so much in the AVGN review until I realized there was a 1 MB release. I still don't think the 2 MB release is anything exciting, but that particular complaint about repetitive speech doesn't apply to it. The sequel battlemorph is a huge step up in every area, though, and renders the original obsolete save a historical curiosity.Quote:
Skyler's also not as annoying (or boring) in the original 2 MB release either. (TBH, with the amount of speech they cut out in the 1 MB version, they should have just used text instead)
Battlemorph has a few on-rails FPS portions in these detailed tunnels. Like the normal game, you can control your speed, either forward or reverse, and you don't have to steer, as you'll glide along all the twists and turns. They look very impressive for the system, quite comparable to the tunnels in Panzer Dragoon Saga on the saturn. They're always short and feature some unique enemies that climb the ceilings as well as doors with keys. They're actually a welcome addition in battlemorph because, along with the underwater segments, they break up the scenery regularly and keep the game from looking repetitive.Quote:
Personally, I like the feel of the Jaguar's game library more . . . I mean aside from the technical curiosity aspect (really interesting hardware design), there's just some interesting quirky original games for the system. Some games are genuinely good and fun to play, some more mediocre and an acquired taste (I had fun with Cybermorph, but I'm already predisposed to roaming 3D shooters -TBH a railshooter would have been a lot more marketable and probably more graphically impressive due to the simplicity)
I got my Jaguar in... 1996 (?) when it was being liquidated from Kay B Toys for $30. I had been reading magazine ads and reviews for the thing for a while and knew that AvP was supposed to be THE game. So, aside from cybermorph, the only other game I got was AvP. I got home, tore into it, and was promptly disappointed. I think AvP is probably the most overrated game on the system. The 3 characters play differently, sure, and it looks superb, but the gameplay is awful. Aside from the wicked graphics, it has all the complexity of a third-rate Wolfenstein 3D. Just lots of wandering vast, empty rooms, scattered about without rhyme or reason, looking for keys to open doors. Everything is flat, everything is so wide and open. It's very boring, especially since I'd already played doom on my 486 prior.Quote:
And some of the commonly cited "good" games aren't so good IMO . . . AvP kind of sucks really . . . simpler game design and crappy framerate compared to Doom. (I really don't understand why they didn't just halve the horizontal res like Doom did -doubles the framerate for a ray casting engine- then again, the same thing happened with 3DO Doom)
The 1-2 punch of cybermorph and AvP probably did more to sour my opinion on the system for decades than anything else. I did get one more game from Kay B Toys a week later - Tempest 2000 for $5, and it redeemed my entire purchase, but my first impression stuck for a loooong time. I see people say all the time that AvP was impressive "back in the day." Well I played it when it should have been impressive and found it to be dull as hell.
Zero5 has some very impressive graphics, but its prohibitively expensive. It's probably a toss up between Phase Zero, Zero5, and Iron Soldier 2 for the best 3D graphics crown.Quote:
The most graphically impressive game on the system would easily be Phase Zero IMO . . . though that wasn't actually completed or commercially released (released as freeware by the developers after the system died, and typically only playable via flash cart).
I think the 2D games look better, though. NBA Jam, Doom, and Rayman are probably kings of 2D on the Jaguar.
Your version of Doom must be borked, because Doom saves your progress. All Atari Jaguar games do, it was required that the carts include some SRAM to save your settings. It was a part of the cartridge spec. It's a feature I really like about the jaguar - not only do games usually save progress, but they'll all save your music and button configurations.Quote:
Originally Posted by mrbigreddog
Even games which have no use for sram and don't use it to save progress feature the ability to save your configurations. Like Zool 2.
Yeah I don't recall that at all... The Atari Jaguar Doom cart I had where you could skip to ANY LEVEL. So you could technically continue your progress, but I didn't see a save feature.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSonicRetard
Edit:
Skip to 3:28 - That's all I remember...
lol, that means you bought a used copy of doom that somebody already beat. Doom saves your progress and you can freely select any level prior to the one you've reached.
Press option, #, and * all at the same time on the title screen. You'll see a message asking if you want to reset your saves. Once you do that, you'll only be able to select the highest level you've reached.
EDIT: From a text writeup of the jaguar doom manual:
Quote:
Memory Save
-----------
Volume and controls information, as well as the last level completed are
retained in the cartridge even if you have turned off your JAGUAR 64-Bit
Interactive Multimedia System. The cartridge will store up to 100,000 changes.
After 100,000 changes have been recorded, no more changes will be retained. To
clear the currently saved changes and restore the factory defaults, press *,
Option and # while on the DOOM Title Screen. A message will then be displayed,
"Defaults Restored."
Well ain't that some shit! - Oh well... Sold my Atari Jaguar lot last year anyways...Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSonicRetard
Edit: Because of your "EDIT"
You know what, I had the damn manual too... And never read it! I just assumed you couldn't save it...
Ha, it's a neat if woefully undocumented feature about the Jaguar. I didn't realize every cart saved until I changed my Zool 2 controller settings one day. I played a bit, then turned off the console and came back later to play some more, and noticed that my controller options had saved. Went online and read up a bit and discovered every game has such a feature. It's even mentioned in the manuals.
It's actually a great idea, I wish other cart-based systems had something similar.
My problem with the Jag is that even its good exclusive titles aren't that special for me. Take AVP for instance. Its a decent game yes. Especially compared to other exclusives for the console. But i'm sorry im going to say this, Doom wipes the floor with it. And im talking about the Jaguar version which was a great port. So basically, a multiplatform title was better than its supposed AAA exclusive.
Again, i'm not saying that AVP isn't a good game. It does have some nice atmosphere and some great scaling effects. But Doom is better. AVP's engine looks more like the aging wolfenstein's engine. There are no complex rooms at all, only some straight corridors and some boxy rooms. The only difference from Wolf 3D is that the ceiling and floors are texture mapped. The level design is not interesting at the least. 10 minutes in the game and you saw almost the whole game. Only at the end you will see some new textures but again, only corridors and boxy rooms.
The gameplay isn't bad and each race is different and interesting but it becomes tiresome not only because of the boring level design but from the slow frame rate as well. Even though this one should be as smooth as Wolf3D, given its simple engine, in reality its far jerkier than JagDoom, despite the fact that Doom has far more complex level design. And despite the fact than AVP even has pop-up, masked by a dark fog. I want to believe that the fog is there to create atmosphere but it should help with frame rates too and it doesn't.
And then there's Tempest 2000. Ok, its stylish. It has great music. But what else is there except the Jeff Minter effects and techno music? An ancient game that people played on arcades a decade before and older consoles like the 5200 or 7800. A good game maybe, but is that what we want to play with our "64 bit next-gen monster"? If the best game of a powerful console is a retro game with some added effects, then something is wrong. I really do enjoy the acid trip and the music but this one should be more like a "bonus" game in your collection, not the main event for the console.
For me Jaguar's best games are Doom (for a while it was the only way to play a good port this game without having to buy an expensive PC) and Rayman, the only worthy exclusive (well for a while) that at least showed off Jaguar's 2D capabilities. Imo, they missed the opportunity to keep this as an exclusive and make Rayman their mascot as he was a pretty likeable and marketable character and his game was good, or at least pretty enough to stand against a Mario or Sonic platformer. The Wolfenstein 3D port is also pretty good with improved sprites compared to the PC version.
Anything else was either bad/mediocre games or some decent 2D games that could be done/already done on 16bit consoles.
well we agree about AvP, but I don't see your point about Tempest 2000. You've actually highlighted a complaint about the jaguar that I see repeated often - The games aren't "64-bit" enough. It's measuring what the system actually is, against some sort of expectations you have based on the 64-bit marketing campaign. I think people get too caught up in what the system is supposed to be, rather than taking objective looks at what the system is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulis
Personally, Tempest 2000 is the perfect kind of game for me. Like you said, crazy aesthetics, stylish music, and classic gameplay. I don't care that the gameplay was 20 years old at that point, because to me, it was simply tried and tested. I've sunk thousands of hours into Super Stardust HD on the PS3, for example. Fun gameplay will always be fun gameplay to me.
I think you've sold the library quite short, however. Even taking into account your skepticism about overhyped jaguar games from atari fans, I'd say Iron Soldier 2, Battlemorph, Missile Command 3D, Super Burnout, and World Tour Racing CD are all high quality exclusives that are on par with games like Rayman.
Yes but i don't remember Tempest being THAT popular before it got a good reputation as one of the few good Jaguar games. I guess the trippy effects added so much in the game and basically completed it, so i guess i will agree on that. Besides i enjoyed the game even though i didn't care that much about its gameplay.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSonicRetard
Most of the other games you mention are Jaguar CD games that i never played because they won't play on the Jaguar by its own. Its an addon, but also a different console that costs extra money. I guess it has some good games but you wouldn't mention Sega CD games if someone told you that Genesis/MegaDrive has a weak library.
Of the 5 games I mentioned, 2 are Jaguar CD games.
And I absolutely list games like Snatcher, Lunar, Shining Force CD, Sonic CD, and Popful Mail if I'm discussing Sega's 16-bit library.
And tempest was the killer app on the vectrex before it was a jaguar classic. My local arcade also had a tempest machine, which I used to play when my money got low because it was $0.25 a pop rather than $0.50
I wish Atari would have done a better job keeping series and titles that were on the lynx and jaguar in sync. A conversion of stun runner to the jaguar would have been amazing, or perhaps games like Ninja Gaiden 3 or Xybots. Likewise, despite being so down on the game, I'd kill to try the Lynx port of AvP. Together, the lynx and jaguar have a pretty solid line up of titles. If they could have produced one system with that entire library, they would have had a cult classic.
Yeah, i always forget that Iron Soldier 2 was also released as a cart.
Yes but not if you are discussing Genesis games. Unless you mean both Jaguar CD and the original Jaguar when you mention "Jaguar".Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSonicRetard
from the OP:Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulis
So indeed I do :DQuote:
(Note: I'm counting the Jaguar and Jaguar CD as one system here)
Well ok. It just seems a little bit unfair for the 3DO since on one corner we have 2 different consoles and their separate libraries as one and on the other just one console and its own library.
I don't really see it that way. The Jaguar CD is just a storage medium, it's not it's own console like you claim. It didn't add anything to the jaguar, it has no video hardware of its own. Compared to the Sega CD, or 32X, or Turbo Duo, or even CD32, the jaguar CD doesn't really do anything other than provide larger space compared to a cartridge. To me, it's more like the difference between MSX cartridges, and MSX floppy disks. You wouldn't classify those as two different consoles, just two different storage mediums.
Hmmm, i don't know, considering the price its not something like the N64 expansion pack, yes you can't play some games without it (only 3 games actually if i remember correctly) but that was also cheap and you could get it even cheaper bundled with DK64. It wasn't much different than buying a memory card or something. Jaguar CDs price however puts it on a different league closer to the Sega CD/32X territory imo.
Anyway, i don't have a Jaguar CD so i can't really comment on its games. I only have a Jaguar so my comments are about what the standalone Jaguar can play.
Awesome thread. :)
I'm not sure which system I like more. While I'm very familiar with the releases these machines had back in the day, I haven't followed the homebrew scene that closely.
Impulse X looks like a cool version; the soundtrack is excellent. Protector is a much better version of Defender than Defender 2000 is, definitely a late release gem of the Jag library.
It's a real shame the Jaguar is so poorly emulated after all these years. I would love to play some Jag CD games again but can't justify the cost.
The Jaguar carts all have some flash memory on them, not battery-backed SRAM.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSonicRetard
I wasn't sure if it was eeprom or SRAM, I figured they would have gone with SRAM for cost reasons. If they went with a writable eeprom, then that's even more amazing.Quote:
Originally Posted by A Black Falcon
Yeah, Atari was the first company to use flash memory for saving in a videogame system, I believe. Impressive stuff for 1993.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSonicRetard
(Unless there was one on the Genesis before then? There may have been, but Atari was the first company to have that as a mandated standard for all titles on the system that saved.)
Fun Fact: Jaguar CDs aren't ISO-9000. They actually aren't any known format. The people who developed the jaguar came up with their own data format loosely based on the redbook standard. As such, Jaguar CDs can hold 790 mb, which is slightly bigger than the traditional retail CD.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoZeedeater
Wit your saying I got to spend over $1000 to fully enjoy a Jaguar.
Well HEY! THERE Mr.emulator, lovely day ay?
I'm pretty sure Neo Geo memory cards use flash memory.Quote:
Originally Posted by A Black Falcon
star control 2 >>>>> anything on jaguar. jaguar has some good games. I agree, but no real AAA game like star control 2. in fact I rate road rash pretty near that rating as well and no jaguar game comes close to that either.
that pretty much nails it. jaguar somehow has the most fanatical and ignorant fanboys I've ever seen. I think it comes from being the last atari console and that they feel special to have a console almost nobody else has, but really no game on it makes it a system seller. not one. and here in netherlands jaguar, like all atari things, like lynx, sold well and was easily aivailable, but you hear nobody about it anymore. because it's less rare and special here.Quote:
Originally Posted by j_factor
Great read. http://i56.tinypic.com/10qlwdl.jpg
To be honest I don't really have much of a preference either way over the two systems.
The way I initially got interested in the Jag was way back through the Atari Karts game. Funnily enough it was one of the first games I owned for the system (I actually had it before I even bought the console itself) and since I thought I was in for some great Mario Kart similar type gameplay, I couldn't wait to get the system itself and try it out. It didn't exactly leave me with the greatest impression. But I persevered, and the system has kinda grown on me since then. Using the pro controller has also made it a better experience.
Still, the iffy framerate/scrolling is much more pronounced than the saving feature, which is not all that necessary in this case since the game is pretty short.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSonicRetard
Well, in some ways they are, even when compared to the Saturn version... There are spots with transparencies and an extra layer of parallax not present in the other versions, to begin with.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSonicRetard
I highly doubt any claim made in Atari Age forums, even if it's something like: "the sun will rise by tomorrow morning"...Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSonicRetard
Well, I'll let you have your artistic preference but IMO both Saturn and PS1 versions feel more polished than the Jaguar's.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSonicRetard
Also, the music/sfx is a no contest IMO, especially the Saturn version.
No, it's not on par by any stretch of imagination. You're comparing an unfinished version with a solid, polished one.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSonicRetard
Blizzard's sprites are clearly smaller on the Jaguar version.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSonicRetard
This is new info to me, interesting, thanks. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSonicRetard
Like I said, the Jaguar version seems to be a unfinished product IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSonicRetard
Also, the 3DO version has shadows for the fighters, as the PS1 and Saturn versions also have. The Jaguar CD version doesn't have them, like the SNES, Genesis and 32X versions.
At first you may say that shadows mean almost nothing in terms of graphics, but the characters feel a lot more "connected" to the scenarios with them IMO.
Considering it's a Probe product, the Saturn version is unbelievably good, hehe.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSonicRetard
I take the Saturn version over the emulated half-unlocked MT2 version any day of the week.
Well, I mentioned the cutscenes in my previous post. I also prefer the rotoscoped scenes, by a large margin. I just think it makes more sense to compare the 3DO version with the Sega CD's one, but, yes, I would take the Jaguar's over the 3DO's. The 3DO's offer less sfx than the Genesis version, doesn't have the voiced dialogues nor the good CD soundtrack of the Sega CD's.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSonicRetard
You're probably talking about very few people since this game is hardly mentioned and, I'd bet, you read those comments in Amiga and Atari fan sites, so I'm really not surprised.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSonicRetard
The backgrounds aren't photographed on the 3DO, but they have a cleaner design, yes. I'd also prefer the original design but the 3DO's version colors and animation (like that rain effect on the background) are superb IMO and leagues better than the rough looking original Amiga version. In the same fashion, I like the PS1's Robocod graphics better than any other version of that game. I think those games really needed brighter colors, especially Robocod.
There's a lot of talking about this version, but I really don't see anything special in it, quite the opposite. The "new" backgrounds few disjoint mixed with the original art concept and the new soundtrack has nothing to do with the original soul of the game. The loading times are also kinda annoying IMO and the sfx aren't on par with the Sega CD's version, which I consider the truly enhanced one. The original art is there, but the game runs much better than the SNES version and also clearly better than the Genesis one. The controls are perfect, the loading time is minimal and the music was composed by the original crew who worked in the original version, unlike the funky 3DO compositions.Quote:
Originally Posted by mrbigreddog
The upcoming Jaguar version has a good chance to be the definitive one, since people say it's based on the later PC revisions and that is has far superior graphics when compared to the 16-bit ones but retaining the original art. I just can't wait to listen to the music/sfx and see what they managed to extract from the Jaguar in such aspect...
The Jaguar is a very interesting platform IMO, it just suffered with some nasty SDK bugs and ill-marketing due to the then Atari's "health" condition. I really can see it surviving to the PS1 vs SAT war if it had been pushed by a financially healthy Atari and managed to get better 3rd party support (some JP partners wouldn't hurt, really).
Also, I'd include Myst, International Sensible Soccer and Fever Pitch Soccer as worth playing Jaguar games.
Ha, the Saturn version of Alone in the Dark 2 is the best console port of that game by far. I first played Alone in the Dark 2 on the 3DO way back in the day and the framerate is horrendous. It frequently drops to well below 1 frame per second.Quote:
Originally Posted by sheath
Alone in the Dark 1 on the 3DO runs OK though, but not as smoothly as the Saturn version of AitD2 if I remember correctly.
Nope, Neo-Geo memory cards have batteries in them. The system actually uses fairly standard PCMCIA SRAM cards, so you can buy modern replacements, though. Any JEIDA 3 compatible PCMCIA SRAM (ie, battery-backed) memory card works with the Neo-Geo. See this: http://www.neo-geo.com/forums/archiv.../t-170452.htmlQuote:
Originally Posted by j_factor
There are three different Jaguar emulators, but not all games work with any of them. Emulation is fine for, say, Tempest 2000, but if you want to play everything in the library, you'll need the actual system, unfortunately. Jaguar emulator compatibility is only mediocre for things other than T2K.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunderblaze16
I disagree, I think T2K is a great, great game... though yes, the PS1/Saturn ports are very good as well, the original version is better in some ways than the ports. And T2K is hugely improved over the original Tempest, it's a much better game... but Jeff Minter makes great games, so that's no surprise.Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulis
I need to give it a better shot on the Saturn then. I really wanted to enjoy it, but man it's like a complete gamble whether I'll get through a segment without attempting to make the same climb or whatever. Maybe I just don't know what to do. I remember watching a buddy play the first game on PC back in the day and it looked good, and years ahead of Resident Evil.Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamL
Yeah, I remember some of the puzzles in Alone in the Dark 2 being pretty obtuse. It's just one of those games that requires a lot of trial and error to get through it. I still enjoyed it a lot back in the day though.Quote:
Originally Posted by sheath
Alone in the Dark 1 was far more straightforward IIRC.
Some Genesis games use EEPROM, mostly sports games and only from Acclaim. http://www.sega-16.com/forum/archive...hp/t-5965.htmlQuote:
Originally Posted by A Black Falcon
It's not flash memory either, in the sense of common and cheap NAND flash (PSX was the first to use that commonly iirc, though I've seen some references to that being EEPROM too), but the older and more limited (and costly) EEPROMs. NAND flash wasn't quite available as commodity yet, and small EEPROMs would potentially have been cheaper than SRAM+battery, but only in very limited capacities. (not sure if the Memory Track cart's 128 kB is traditional floating-gate EEPROM or NAND Flash)
Again, AvP should have just dropped to "low detail" (halved the horizontal res) like Doom does. The framerate should have nearly doubled doing that.Quote:
Originally Posted by mrbigreddog
3DO Doom makes the same mistake. (32x would run about 1/2 as fast if it wasn't low detail)
That looks like something Joe Redifer wrote . . . I've seen similar comments from him before and I've responded to them iirc.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSonicRetard
I mentioned the one big common complaint of lacking face/action buttons (again, a problem on the Genesis keeping 3 buttons standard too and arguably on 3DO), but I don't agree about the "steep" button alignment. Maybe it's just because I've got long fingers, but it really doesn't seem like a problem at all. TBH, I think it's more to do with the way I hold the controller than my hand size . . . choking up and angling your hands to allow easily sliding your thumb between the 3 works fine. IIRC Joe made the same complaint about the Neo Geo controller . . . and even the Neo Geo CD gamepad.
The bigger button argument is one that's sometimes leveled against the MD pad as well, and that's the more limited way to do button combos (holding 2 buttons at once and rocking to switch -think holding down B in Mario games) compared to the SNES's diamond layout. TBH though, this is more an issue with button mapping, since most games only have a few specific actions that merit that sort of combo usage. (on a 3 button pad, you'd just map that commonly used action to the middle one and switch between the outer 2 buttons -same thing you have to do on the SNES pad anyway, typically with B being that "common" button) The problem with the Genesis and (more so) jaguar pads is that the buttons are large and far enough apart to potentially cause more difficulty doing this. (still not a problem in my experience -especially on the MD)
I've seen similar complaints about MD Dpads, but I've tried most of the common revisions on the 3 button pad and they're all decent IMO and better than the NES or SNES for the most part. (and SMS, obviously -SMS buttons are really nice though, especially the smooth gliding depression action)Quote:
Now, apparently, after speaking with many people about controller woes, it seems like Atari had two revisions of the original 3 button controller. In the second revision, they changed the rocker mechanism in the d-pad so it's not as flat and mushy as in the original, at least according to several people at Atari Age. There is a chance you might have one of these newer controllers and thats why it seems fine to you. In my case, the original controller had no depth to the d-pad, and the buttons had no throw. It was too mushy to be useable, and the pro controller is a huge improvement.
Historical curiosity and MUCH easier to find. (even if you burn it, you'll need a jag CD ;))Quote:
Yeah, I have a 2 MB release, and I couldn't understand why Skylar repeated herself so much in the AVGN review until I realized there was a 1 MB release. I still don't think the 2 MB release is anything exciting, but that particular complaint about repetitive speech doesn't apply to it. The sequel battlemorph is a huge step up in every area, though, and renders the original obsolete save a historical curiosity.
Even without the gameplay improvements of Battlemorph, the art design alone makes a massive difference . . . CD music is nice too, but decent synth music on the cart should have been reasonable too. (I really don't get why Cybermorph doesn't do in-game music of any sort . . . maybe they slaved the DSP for geometry, but for 1 it's not that polygon intensive and 2, the DSP has super nasty bus bottlenecks that make it really bad for that role compared to the GPU -a decent 8 channel sample synth driver would take a miniscule amount of bus time too, and even with compression and interpolation by the DSP it shouldn't be very taxing, let alone plain PCM mixed sample synth -ie MOD player music)
Hoverstrike is interesting too (or the sequel more so) . . . poly counts aren't high, but it's got lots of textures and relatively detailed and colorful too (in terms of unique colors and shades, not high contrast bright color), and it shows off the silky smooth (256 shade) gouraud shaded texture mapping.Quote:
Zero5 has some very impressive graphics, but its prohibitively expensive. It's probably a toss up between Phase Zero, Zero5, and Iron Soldier 2 for the best 3D graphics crown.
Too bad there's not many good examples using the scaling capabilities (blitter based texture -scaling/rotation- effects are more limited, but sprite scaling -object processor sprites- can be even more impressive). Better-than-PC versions of Wing Commander 1 and 2 would have been interesting to see.Quote:
I think the 2D games look better, though. NBA Jam, Doom, and Rayman are probably kings of 2D on the Jaguar.
Funnily enough, Joe and I often respectfully disagree, so I'm kind of surprised that Joe has a similar opinion to me. I assure you those thoughts are mine after owning a Jaguar and a Pro Controller for so long. My fingers aren't too small or too long - average I'd guess - but the button orientation still bothers me. By contrast, I feel like the duke controller for the xbox was decently sized, and that the N64 controller is actually too small for me to grip the middle handle (which wasn't a problem when I was a kid). Perhaps it's one of those things that just got ingrained into my head at an early age due to constant sega use.Quote:
Originally Posted by kool kitty89
I adore the Neo Geo joystick and gamepads, though. Definitely disagree with Joe there.
The size of the buttons don't bother me too much - I'd prefer buttons being larger and closer together so that I can hit multiple buttons at once by just shifting my thumb around. It's really the distance they travel which bothers me. Again, it might vary from gamepad to gamepad, but my buttons were extremely mushy. It felt like I was pressing on a mousepad. There was very little to give me feed back that I had actually pressed a button. With games like Ultra Vortek, which have a natural bit of lag to them and buffers inputs, the inability to tell when a button registers can be frustrating.Quote:
The bigger button argument is one that's sometimes leveled against the MD pad as well, and that's the more limited way to do button combos (holding 2 buttons at once and rocking to switch -think holding down B in Mario games) compared to the SNES's diamond layout. TBH though, this is more an issue with button mapping, since most games only have a few specific actions that merit that sort of combo usage. (on a 3 button pad, you'd just map that commonly used action to the middle one and switch between the outer 2 buttons -same thing you have to do on the SNES pad anyway, typically with B being that "common" button) The problem with the Genesis and (more so) jaguar pads is that the buttons are large and far enough apart to potentially cause more difficulty doing this. (still not a problem in my experience -especially on the MD)
I've tried tons of gamepads and I'd say the only one that is similarly bad to the Jaguar one is the original Amiga CD32 controller, albeit for different reasons. The d-pad on the Mega Drive has the cardinal buttons jutting out quite a bit, unlike the jaguar pad. The jag pad is just a bit too flat for me. And, like the buttons, my pad was very mushy, again comparing it to pressing your thumb down on a mouse pad. I do think the 1st model Panasonic 3DO controller has more problems than the jaguar pad, though, mainly because it can't seem to register diagonals consistently without a bit of modding.Quote:
I've seen similar complaints about MD Dpads, but I've tried most of the common revisions on the 3 button pad and they're all decent IMO and better than the NES or SNES for the most part. (and SMS, obviously -SMS buttons are really nice though, especially the smooth gliding depression action)
I agree, I think Battlemorph has some pretty good art direction. The underwater bits are visually stimulating, as are the tunnel segments, and the way the backgrounds change so often because the level progression is more streamlined keeps the game from getting stale.Quote:
Historical curiosity and MUCH easier to find. (even if you burn it, you'll need a jag CD ;))
Even without the gameplay improvements of Battlemorph, the art design alone makes a massive difference . . . CD music is nice too, but decent synth music on the cart should have been reasonable too. (I really don't get why Cybermorph doesn't do in-game music of any sort . . . maybe they slaved the DSP for geometry, but for 1 it's not that polygon intensive and 2, the DSP has super nasty bus bottlenecks that make it really bad for that role compared to the GPU -a decent 8 channel sample synth driver would take a miniscule amount of bus time too, and even with compression and interpolation by the DSP it shouldn't be very taxing, let alone plain PCM mixed sample synth -ie MOD player music)
I also dig the Sean connory knock off who narrates the thing.
Hoverstrike CD is great to look at, especially in 3rd person mode. My only complaint would be that 3rd person mode runs in a small window rather than fullscreen. I haven't gotten too far into it, but I was watching the Jaguar 95 E3 video a few days ago and they show some beta footage from Hoverstrike that displays very impressive lightsourcing. I'm guessing the video was from the cart version, because it was all Goraud-shaded untextured polygons, but the level was a pitch black maze where you had to fire your gun to light the way. Any idea if that level made it into the final game?Quote:
Hoverstrike is interesting too (or the sequel more so) . . . poly counts aren't high, but it's got lots of textures and relatively detailed and colorful too (in terms of unique colors and shades, not high contrast bright color), and it shows off the silky smooth (256 shade) gouraud shaded texture mapping.
Super Burnout is an excellent example of the scaling capabilities of the Jaguar. That game moves at such a smooth and fast framerate, and it looks quite a bit like any of Sega's Super Scaler arcade games from the 80's.Quote:
Too bad there's not many good examples using the scaling capabilities (blitter based texture -scaling/rotation- effects are more limited, but sprite scaling -object processor sprites- can be even more impressive). Better-than-PC versions of Wing Commander 1 and 2 would have been interesting to see.
I know I mentioned Checkered Flag and Club Drive, but I should explain why I'm interested in those (and Atari Karts somewhat (so expensive!), and definitely Super Burnout of course) more so than most of the 3DO's racing games. The main reason is that the two best 3DO racing games, Road Rash and The Need for Speed, are both multiplatform games that are just as good on other systems. I have both of those games for the PC, and NFS1 for Saturn too. Other than the additional bad FMVs in NFS, there's really no good reason to want the 3DO versions as well. It's not like I love either of those games anyway, they're just okay to good.
Other than those, the 3DO's racing game library is very thin, like the Jaguar's. For Western releases, the 3DO has Crash 'n Burn, an okay but bland-looking FMV-backdrops futuristic racing game (I want to play it, but don't want to spend the money for a 3DO for it...), BC Racers (also on SCD and 32X, and mediocre on all of them), MegaRace and Off-World Interceptor, if you count those action/"racing" games (actually I think that OWI is more of a racing game than Mega Race, given that at least in that game you're driving to a goal, while in MegaRace all you do is drive around until you kill the other cars, pretty much... also OWI is actually kind of fun, while I've always hated Mega Race.). Plus of course both of those games are on other system too, even if the 3DO versions are slightly different from the other releases.
There are also five Japan-only 3DO racing games. Autobahn Tokio is another one of those incredibly bland mid '90s racing games with three tracks, walled courses, no multiplayer, and really boring realistic-cars gameplay. There's also a driving simulator/tutor thing, forget that. F-1 GP's nothing that interests me at all either. Lastly are the two Wacky Races games, Chiki Chiki Machine Mou Race, and Chiki Chiki Machine Mou Race 2: In Space. These games have lots of FMV videos with the Wacky Races cast (all in Japanese, but you can make a little sense out of it, so it's somewhat entertaining), and some bland racing gameplay. At least they're playable though, and if I had the system, sure, I'd probably want to play them a little. It's too bad neither one released in the West.
So yeah, the 3DO has a couple more racing games than the Jaguar, but if you look at exclusives, the Jaguar holds its own, particularly if you include World Tour Racing and not just the cart releases.
Hah, linking my own thread are you? My excuse is that as soon as I remembered that yes, some Genesis games do use EEPROM and FeRAM saving, I didn't want to go look up the release dates for those games right then, so I qualified it with a "maybe some of the Genesis games are from before the Jaguar released" instead. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by kool kitty89
Looking it up, yeah, some of those are from before the Jaguar, and others after. But it is true that the Jaguar was the first console with non-battery saving for all games that saved, and that was an important change from what other systems had done, and would do in years after that too (Saturn, N64, GBC, GBA, PC-FX, etc...).
I was using "flash memory" as a catchall term there for any chip-based save systems which don't use a battery. I know that technically flash RAM, FeRAM, and EEPROM are all different things. But they have inherent similarities that separate them from SRAM (battery-backed chip saving), so there should be some term that refers to them all in general...Quote:
It's not flash memory either, in the sense of common and cheap NAND flash (PSX was the first to use that commonly iirc, though I've seen some references to that being EEPROM too), but the older and more limited (and costly) EEPROMs. NAND flash wasn't quite available as commodity yet, and small EEPROMs would potentially have been cheaper than SRAM+battery, but only in very limited capacities. (not sure if the Memory Track cart's 128 kB is traditional floating-gate EEPROM or NAND Flash)
The duke is great, except for the shape (and to lesser extent) position of the face buttons . . . I still like it more than any standard controller since then. (maybe the WiiU pro controller, but I haven't tried it yet)Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSonicRetard
TBH, the grips are a bit short for my liking on the N64, but it's still the most comfortable standard controller of that generation IMO. (on a separate note, it sucks that Sony didn't keep the form factor of the original dual analog controller around at least as an option . . . the longer grips make a huge difference confort-wise -it didn't fix eveything, bit it was an improvement)
The Saturn 3D pad (granded non-standard) is nice too, but the grips are too short also . . . dreamcast just made things worse though.
Huh, that sounds like some PSX pads I've used (stiff and mushy buttons without obvious "contact" feedback). Honestly, I'd prefer slightly soft/loose mushy buttons to super stiff (and still mushy) ones unless the throw was ridiculously long, but it really depends.Quote:
The size of the buttons don't bother me too much - I'd prefer buttons being larger and closer together so that I can hit multiple buttons at once by just shifting my thumb around. It's really the distance they travel which bothers me. Again, it might vary from gamepad to gamepad, but my buttons were extremely mushy. It felt like I was pressing on a mousepad. There was very little to give me feed back that I had actually pressed a button. With games like Ultra Vortek, which have a natural bit of lag to them and buffers inputs, the inability to tell when a button registers can be frustrating.
The buttons on any 1st party genesis pad are better than the Jag pad I used, but OTOH I feel Sega's buttons were well above average across the board. (the one edge the SMS had too -and I prefer concave buttons too, but the size/shape and action of the SMS buttons make up for that)
I only really played platformers, racing games, and shooters (scrolling, 3D, and T2K) on the Jaguar . . . well I tried Kasumi ninja for the hell of it, but I haven't tried playing any fighting games "seriously" on the system. (and I'm not a fighting game fan anyway)
I don't recall any of the platformers I played having a ton of multi-button stuff either, so I may have simply avoided the problem entirely. (I remember more that the button erconomics and pressing action was acceptable, including for rapid mashing)
Personally, I have no problems with mushy d-pads . . . or stiff ones for that matter (like early model Genesis pads).Quote:
I've tried tons of gamepads and I'd say the only one that is similarly bad to the Jaguar one is the original Amiga CD32 controller, albeit for different reasons. The d-pad on the Mega Drive has the cardinal buttons jutting out quite a bit, unlike the jaguar pad. The jag pad is just a bit too flat for me. And, like the buttons, my pad was very mushy, again comparing it to pressing your thumb down on a mouse pad. I do think the 1st model Panasonic 3DO controller has more problems than the jaguar pad, though, mainly because it can't seem to register diagonals consistently without a bit of modding.
It's more a matter of the d-pad shape itself and how it cups my thumb along with the actual consistency/accuracy of the contacts. I can get use to different contact/pivot feels pretty easily, though TBH I'm not super fond of microswitch based d-pads with long throw and low tension centering springs/boots (like Neo Geo CD -similar problems with certain joysticks, but that's another story).
In the MD, there's a huge range of D-pad tactile feedback from the various 3 button pads, smaller range of "normal" 6-button pads, and the model 3 6-button (mushier and taller d-pad, still works great though -don't like the slightly smaller controller size though).
-I should note that I'm the pivot/rock or jam-thumb-into-dpad type of player and not the slide-thumb-around-dpad type. (settle my thumb in there and then shift pressure in the direction I want, moving my thumb only as far as the d-pad itself travels)
I don't prefer the Jag pad in general over most contemporaries (SNES and MD fare are better at the very least), but I'd take it over the PSX d-pad any day of the week. (the way I use a d-pad means I bottom out on that overlapping plastic on the PSX and get my thumb sore way faster than most others -can't even think of a worse one aside from super cheap clone controllers . . . at least on controlers where the d-pad is a primary input method)
Compared to Michael Dorn doing Stellar Fire (and the 3DO Stellar 7 game). ;) (and random drmatic Brittish guy doing SoulStar)Quote:
I also dig the Sean connory knock off who narrates the thing.
Sorry, no idea . . . I haven't seen full playthroughs of these games and I haven't seen this one in person either.Quote:
Hoverstrike CD is great to look at, especially in 3rd person mode. My only complaint would be that 3rd person mode runs in a small window rather than fullscreen. I haven't gotten too far into it, but I was watching the Jaguar 95 E3 video a few days ago and they show some beta footage from Hoverstrike that displays very impressive lightsourcing. I'm guessing the video was from the cart version, because it was all Goraud-shaded untextured polygons, but the level was a pitch black maze where you had to fire your gun to light the way. Any idea if that level made it into the final game?
Yeah, but it's a pretty basic game overall . . . aside from PC games, something pushing detail closer to the level of Galaxy Force or Thunder Blade would have been really interesting. ;) (Blue Lightning was kind of lame in that respect . . . )Quote:
Super Burnout is an excellent example of the scaling capabilities of the Jaguar. That game moves at such a smooth and fast framerate, and it looks quite a bit like any of Sega's Super Scaler arcade games from the 80's.
Super Burnout is closer to something the Panther probably could have handled . . . well with less color and perhaps less animation (depending on the ROM size). It seems simple enough to be feasible with what Atari's planned configuration was for that machine in 1989.
Hail to the King Baby!
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...Controller.jpg