After that incredible intro, it's disappointing how awful the song is. "Do the math muthafucka" is badass. Rhyming "Jaguar" with "Swag hard" for 3 minutes... isn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulis
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After that incredible intro, it's disappointing how awful the song is. "Do the math muthafucka" is badass. Rhyming "Jaguar" with "Swag hard" for 3 minutes... isn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulis
Atari had gotten too used during the 7800 period to making money despite only making super low budget games... the company was in no shape to compete with the bigger console manufacturers, particularly with how uninterested they seemed to be in pursuing much in the way of third party developer relationships. They needed one or the other, preferably both, but chose neither, and the results... well, the Lynx and Jaguar stand for themselves. But with so few games, and such low budgets in general, that isn't too surprising.
Some people have said that part of the problem is that Atari didn't release a 4th gen console, only a handheld, so they weren't even able to begin that scaling-up process until the Jaguar when suddenly they were quite overwhelmed, and that is something which you can make a quite strong case for. But regardless, I don't know how much Atari could really have done, by 1989, to change their trajectory... it kind of feels like it was already locked in. Though sure, there was an audience of several million people who had owned 7800s but then moved on to the SNES or Genesis because Atari didn't release a console that next generation, so if they had, maybe it would have helped. But with how the Lynx went, I can't hgelp but think that they would have been overwhelmed anyway.
And their computer business was going the same way, too.
(Oh yeah, and weren't the last new 7800 games released in 1990? I know the system technically wasn't discontinued until January 1992, but as far as I've ever seen, in North America, no games were released for either system after 1990. The only 1991-1992 releases I know of for either one are a couple of third party, European-only-released 2600 games. Atari had a small company, really, they couldn't support two systems at once... so after the Lynx released in '89 they phased out the 7800/2600, and after the Jaguar released they phased out the Lynx.
But even considering all that, the Jaguar's 250,000 sold (half on clearance) is of course really, really low. The 3DO sold a couple million, but I do think that another major factor for both of them was that most people just weren't interested in the nmext generation yet in 1993-1994. It was too early -- the SNES and Genesis were plenty for most people. And by the time they did start getting interested in the next generation, between 1995 and 1997, it was obvious that the 3DO and Jaguar were not the future. Both companies bet that the generation would start early, but it didn't, and they failed because of it. In comparison, the TG16 did well in Japan despite its early release because that market was ready for a new system. I know that the TG16 was four years after the NES in Japan, and the Jag/3DO were four years after the TG16 and Genesis in the US, but most people didn't get 4th gen consoles until 1991 and beyond (Sonic and Super Mario World really pushed it), and the new systems were just 2 1/2 years or less after that. It was way too soon.
The point that most 5200 games were 2600 ports, while people wanted actual new games, is a good one, though, and you can't blame that all on that 1984 shutdown, that's for sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by kool kitty89
That's a rather broad statement to make . . . in Katz's tenure at Atari Corp (early 1985 to early 1989) he made a huge effort in trying to establish relationships with 3rd party developers (though Atari themselves handled most of the publishing and distribution). After discovering Nintendo's lock on vertially all Japanese console/arcade developers, Katz took the route of pursuing American computer game developers and especially establishing a bond with Epix (which he was formerly president of).Quote:
Originally Posted by A Black Falcon
Given their very limited funding in the early 7800 days and the very stiff competition, I think Katz did a pretty bang-up job. Their success certainly made enough of an impression on Sega to be offered the rights for Mega Drive distribution in North America.
Still, there's the oddness of what happened with the 7800 in Europe: not being released until 1989 and not pushing for support from the various European computer game developers in general. (pretty much ideal for the low budget target with the 7800, and games not generally seen on consoles in the US)
If Atari wanted relatively low-cost and (proportionally) high quality software development without Nintendo lock-out, then Europe was an exceptional option at the time.
Granted, there's other weird things that were going on, like mixed support for the 8-bit computers, the whole strangeness that was the XEGS (including the fact that it cost 2x as much as the 65XE) and separate goings-on with the ST end of things. Overall, though, things were going rather well up to 1988, and 1989 should have been the year to push further, but management fell out that year along with the ST hitting its own set of problems and the aging 7800 declining in sales considerably (and much more so in 1990). 1989 was a time where they really needed a new, reasonably competitive hardware platform (personally, I think the Panther probably could have been OK, though far from ideal)
With US console game publishers getting fed up with Nintendo's antics at this point, Atari would have had a much better chance to expand their 3rd party relations in that region. (and hopefully expand into Europe developer support on top of that)
1989 was the start of their decline, with the loss of Katz and Jack Tramiel, and problems both with their computer and game console platforms. Hell, 1989 wasn't just the ripe time for a new console, but also high time for a comprehensive successor to the Atari ST. (and, honestly, with the relatively streamlined and simplistic hardware of the ST, there was a ton of different routes to an efficient, powerful successor to cater to the same range of market it had proven itself in 1986-88 -ie the market segments covered by the bottom end 520ST up though the Mega4- and that was a major technical advantage over the Amiga design, or even PC in some respects -the ST's hardware was simpler, more streamlined, and highly standardized compared to PC . . . an elegant and logical application of off the shelf and minimalistic custom hardware, too bad they followed it up so inconsistently)Quote:
I don't know how much Atari could really have done, by 1989, to change their trajectory...
And with a decline in management on top of the onset of new problems, you've got a vicious cycle of management and market problems feeding into each other into a nasty downward spiral from 1993 to 1996.
Totally agree, without sustained (let along improved) management from 1989 onward, things would have been just as bad.Quote:
But with how the Lynx went, I can't hgelp but think that they would have been overwhelmed anyway.
Really, management decisions are what led to there being no 7800 successor either. (and I don't mean turing down Mega Drive distribution, since that at least made some sense given the mid-1988 context and conflicts of interest over Europe . . . though it's worth noting that Mike Kats was a proponent of Sega's offer)
Same thing with the computers too . . . management decisions played a big role in the evolution path of the ST (or lack thereof). The DRAM shortage of 1988 (and sustained high prices following) certainly hurt them and led to CBM price matching the 520ST with the Amiga 500 (during 1988 the ST went from 299 GBP to 399 while the A500 went from 499 to 399, and Atari still couldn't keep up with demand in spite of that). They needed to take rapid action in 1988 to push beyond the hits they took that year, but it didn't happen. (instead you got the mediocre STe in '89 and the still mediocre and way too expensive TT in 1990) CBM was doing just about as bad in producing new Amiga models, but they had the issue of more complex hardware to deal with. (so the same thing that put the ST at a performance disadvantage really should have allowed for cleaner and more efficient evolution of the design)
Conversely though, if they'd at least gotten a few things right at that point, an upturn on the market could have catalyzed improvements in other areas, including management. (potentially breaking that cycle)
Marty Goldberg made a good summary of the situation though:
http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic...2#entry1823912
Truthfully, Leonard didn't have much to do with the daily operations, he was more involved with the products themselves. And I'm not sure that Sam would have been able to change things if he didn't have the heart attack. Every since he had taken over, the company itself was on a downward spiral. When Jack turned the company over to him, he had mananged to bring the company out of the red and in to the black - shedding all the debt they took on from Warner in the purchase. That was his dream after all, to be able to hand something solid over to his sons and retire. Sam managed to take it from a multi-division multi-product company to a single product company by the time Jack came back in. If they would have fought to the last $$$, there would have been nothing left of a legacy for his kids, hence the reverse merger to get out while they still could. Truthfully, I would rather have had Jack not retire back in the late 80's and have him stick around for the oncoming Wintel onslaught to see how he would have dealt with that. I can't picture just turning tail and closing down the computer division like that.
1991 was the last year the 7800 saw any releases of significance, and hardware sales were dead in the US by that point (1990 saw under 100k units sold), though it's possibly software sales held on a bit longer.Quote:
(Oh yeah, and weren't the last new 7800 games released in 1990? I know the system technically wasn't discontinued until January 1992, but as far as I've ever seen, in North America, no games were released for either system after 1990. The only 1991-1992 releases I know of for either one are a couple of third party, European-only-released 2600 games. Atari had a small company, really, they couldn't support two systems at once... so after the Lynx released in '89 they phased out the 7800/2600, and after the Jaguar released they phased out the Lynx.
Some of the more notable original games on the system didn't appear until late in the system's life. Like Midnight Mutants (1991), Ninja Golf (1990), Alien Brigade (1991), and Scrapyard Dog (1991) among a few others. Some of their better arcade ports were very late too, like Commando in 1990.
Actually, the vast majority of original Atari 7800 titles came out from 1989-1991 and also showed a marked increase in quality and quantity of 3rd party game development collaboration. (though I'll bet a fair amount of those projects were already in the works before Katz left . . . particularly since several of those companies are ones that SoA began collaborating with after Katz came onboard)
Take a look at rfgeneration's archives: http://www.rfgeneration.com/cgi-bin/search.pl
Also Atari had very, very limited resources at that point, even with the investment funds infused following the PR push in late 1993. (which, in and of itself meant that Jaguar software development didn't hit full force until mid 1994)Quote:
But even considering all that, the Jaguar's 250,000 sold (half on clearance) is of course really, really low. The 3DO sold a couple million, but I do think that another major factor for both of them was that most people just weren't interested in the nmext generation yet in 1993-1994. It was too early -- the SNES and Genesis were plenty for most people. And by the time they did start getting interested in the next generation, between 1995 and 1997, it was obvious that the 3DO and Jaguar were not the future. Both companies bet that the generation would start early, but it didn't, and they failed because of it. In comparison, the TG16 did well in Japan despite its early release because that market was ready for a new system. I know that the TG16 was four years after the NES in Japan, and the Jag/3DO were four years after the TG16 and Genesis in the US, but most people didn't get 4th gen consoles until 1991 and beyond (Sonic and Super Mario World really pushed it), and the new systems were just 2 1/2 years or less after that. It was way too soon.
They didn't have the advertising budget, they didn't have the brand name or market confidence (retail or publisher wise), they didn't have the right management, they didn't have distribution right, etc, etc. They could have sold a hell of a lot more Jaguars in 1993-1995 if they'd gotten that right.
The thing simply wasn't widely available, so even if people knew about it and wanted one, they might not be able to find one locally.
No 5200 games were 2600 ports, though many were 8-bit computer ports. Software on the 5200 was not the big problem . . . well not more than software production/distribution was the problem for the industry as a whole at that point (ie massively inflated market that hit problems in '82 and burst in 1983).Quote:
The point that most 5200 games were 2600 ports, while people wanted actual new games, is a good one, though, and you can't blame that all on that 1984 shutdown, that's for sure.
In terms of the platform itself though, compared to the main competition (Colecovision), the 5200 was more expensive, had problematic controllers (for a number of reasons), and was positioned rather oddly compared to the 2600. (rather than a successor it was targeted as a high-end deluxe complement with the 2600 still being the main effort)
As a platform itself though, the 5200 made very little sense. There was nothing in the design that made it a good idea to pursue over a directly compatible A8 computer derivative (especially with the low-cost Atari 600 board design of 1982), and including a minimalistic keypad as standard (including the handful of keys used by most games) would have worked fine. (allow it to be expanded as a full computer separately)
If the 5200 had included lockout hardware to allow better control over publication (and royalties on 3rd parties), it would have at least made more sense, but they didn't do that at all. (the 7800 did, but it kind of ended up moot in the way the 7800 ended up on the market)
Perhaps most important is the 3200 design http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic...ss1000-sylvia/
http://www.atarimuseum.com/videogame...ia/sylvia.html
And more details on the whole thing in Retrogamer issue 80.
In hardware terms, it seems to be a hybrid VCS and 8-bit chipset, with an updated TIA (STIA, super TIA) replacing GTIA and being driven by ANTIC (or FRANTIC in this case). It also looks like sound and analog polling would still be included by STIA in place of POKEY (presumably updated, unlike the 7800 -perhaps very similar sound to POKEY, but no keyboard polling and only 1/2 the analog ports). Likewise, RIOT (6532) would be retained in place of PIA, Sally (6502) in place of the 6507, and there'd be 2 kB of SRAM instead of 8-32 kB DRAM. (so you weren't going to see framebuffer style rendering as in some A8/5200 games without adding RAM to cart -like Summer and Winter games on 7800) There's some indication that the graphical abilities would have been better than the A8 too, but that's mostly speculation AFIK. (Crazyace made some interesting comments on the topic, though)
It looks like that machine would have been ready prior to the 5200 too, but ended up shelved and then cancelled in favor of the 5200. (I haven't read the Retrogamer article yet, but apparently there's some details on this there -I think it was mostly bureaucratic issues that led to that mess)
In hardware terms, that's almost certainly one of the biggest mistakes Atari Inc made . . . perhaps the biggest of Atari Inc and Corp in general. (a console cheaper to mass produce than the 5200, ready for market earlier, fully 2600 compatible, and potentially more powerful than the 5200 graphically as well)
Hell yeah, my rotary controller finally arrived. The first 64 bit analog controller :p
Makes tempest 2000 lightyesrs better. In fact, I just posted a new high score - on top of 42 levels on a single credit. Beat mode.
i am a huge fan of both, that said though there are a few really good games on the jag, the 3DO really blows it away.
Jaguar has some great games, don't get me wrong. Rayman, theme park, iron soldier, doom, wolfenstein, cannon fodder. (not including the jag cd because of higher price point)
the 3DO may not have a great library, but with samurai shodown, theme park (best version),flashback, super street fighter 2, and wing commander just to start, there were just more games to choose from.
but hey both are cheap enough to own, i picked up my 3DO for dirt cheap with a ton of games.
I hope people who point this out grasp the immense ironyQuote:
Originally Posted by cabear
Yeah, and that's when the talent they had became more like US Gold, with their home computer versions of arcade games. They also centered a lot of development around the ultra crappy Real Sports titles. I'm pretty sure the people that were involved with those projects weren't looking to stick around to do arcade conversions and crappy sports titles.Quote:
Originally Posted by kool kitty89
The most talented guy they had left, Warshaw, got torched by Atari when they asked him to make the E.T. game in a matter of weeks. I don't think the guy ever returned to making games after that.
Activision was making arcade style games like Beamrider for all of the systems, including the 5200. They also made games like The Dreadnaught Factor, Hacker and Ghost Busters. A good company will do more than make one style of game. If EA stuck with just sports games, they might not be around today either.Quote:
Activision and Imagic OTOH didn't really deal with producing arcade licenses, and even Coleco and Mattel dealt with considerably fewer in-house licensed arcade games than Atari. (though there were a fair number of imitations too) And, hell, a big chunk of Atari's arcade licenses were their own IPs from the coin-op division. (of course, most of those console/computer ports still had to be programmed completely from scratch . . . there wouldn't be much overlap between arcade hardware coding and the console/computer stuff and it wouldn't normally involve the same programmers either)
You can list them, but beyond the quality of the work, it doesn't say much about the talent of the person as a game designer.Quote:
So, IMO, arcade ports MUST be included in the list. However, the actual quality of the arcade ports in question could certainly be contended. (the extreme mediocrity of Pac Man on the VCS would be a prime example . . . )
I think they had good programmers, but I didn't see many in-house games for their own consoles/hardware that said they had good game designers. Obviously, they didn't seem to appreciate what a good game designer could do.Quote:
I will agree that the in-house software development environment changed somewhat in the early 80s, but I will disagree completely that it was anywhere near the overall situation with the 7800 at Atari Corp or that Atari Inc no longer had considerable in-house talent in 1981-1984.
I do believe if Atari had just stuck with software publishing (sure worked for Activision) for the computers and stayed out of the console market, they could still be around today. You'd think someone would have got the hint after the failures of the 5200, 7800 and Lynx, but they insisted on shooting themselves with the wasted expenses on the Jag to seal the deal to oblivion. Aircars, really?Quote:
It was a lack of funding for the most part . . . the company was very limited in the mid 80s, and for the short period of relative prosperity in ~1987-1989, the 7800 was still a niche/budget platform and Atari was just starting to build up actual in-house software resources.
how so? buying a jaguar system plus the jag cd easily outprices the 3do. not sure what irony there is, especially when 3do games are cheap and pretty plentiful. at least they were when i purchased.
Really? What if you bought them day one? A $259 jaguar with a $159 Jaguar CD is still $400 less than a $799 3DO. You could have bought a Jaguar with a Jaguar CD and 10 games for the price of a 3DO without a single game.Quote:
Originally Posted by cabear
The irony is the number of times this argument gets played out when the 3DO launched as the most expensive gaming system of all time (and still holds that record to this day).
Why talk of day one when it's years later? i bought the jag new and a few games, never bought more because the quality wasn't there. True enough, the price kept me from buying a 3do, but initial price also kept me from purchasing a neo geo, which to me had a way better library than either the jag or 3DO.
I'm speaking on used market today. To purchase the jag, the cd and some games would cost a lot more than finding a 3do variant with some games. Whether that speaks to the quality of the jag and it's accessories over the 3do, i have no idea, all i do know is that you could get alot more game for 200 bucks going the 3do route than you could the jaguar, but the prices may have changed and i could be wrong.
By the time the Jaguar CD was on the market the price of the 3DO was less than $400, it might have even been dropped to $300 by September of 1995 judging by EGM and Gamepro mail order catalogs anyway. The combined cost of a Jaguar and Jaguar CD would not have been less than a 3DO by that point. Original retail sure, but we are talking about the most expensive for profit 3DO running on a totally different business model than any other console has ever attempted as well.
Similarly, by then a Genesis and 32X could be had for ~$180 and a Saturn or PS1 for $300.
Why talk of price when this thread is explicitly irrespective of price?Quote:
Originally Posted by cabear
Also, did you miss the bit on page 1 where I said I've owned a Jaguar for 17 years?
The Jaguar wasn't $249 when the Jaguar CD launched. I'm holding an EGM from the month the Jaguar CD launched in my hand right now advertising the thing for $159. In the same issue of EGM, chips and bits is selling a "NEW LOW PRICE" 3DO for $399.99Quote:
Originally Posted by sheath
$159 + $159 < $399
Do the math?
EDIT: In fact, the same chips and bits ad is advertising a special for the jaguar - "the atari jaguar power pack" with a Jaguar console discounted to $139.99 when you buy a Jaguar CD for $159.99
EDIT AGAIN: And lessie, the same ad... sony playstation: $429.99
Sega Saturn: $499.99
Sega Genesis: $99
32X: $99
you were close with the Genesis + 32X but pretty far off with everything else. Atari's entire campaign for like 2/3 of the jaguar's life was how cheap the console was.
I spoke of price for those who maybe were reading the thread and wondering about buying, as most look for bundles or cheap systems. Your owning a system for 17 years doesn't negate my opinion that the 3DO is the better system. You like the jag, that's great. You can't be blind to its faults though,and the lack of quality software is definitely a fault. The 3DO may not have much better software, but it is indeed better (at least to me).Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSonicRetard
The 3DO had madden, road rash, need for speed, another world, gex, escape from monster manor, those D&D games, fifa, and crash n burn. Both systems had idiotic controllers (the jag was different, just needed better layout and worked well with certain games like theme park, or syndicate. The 3DO... 5 buttons with the stop button being the 6th? Wow just dumb.) and out of the box the 3do had s-video and stereo output.
Not taking anything away from the jag, but the 3do had better support which led to better titles. Both failed though so it's really subjective that one is better than the other. i like one, you like the other.
The more you reply, the more it's obvious that you didn't really read this thread or even the opening post. At all.Quote:
Originally Posted by cabear
What country was that in? The Playstation launch price was announced at E3, with the infamous "$299!"Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSonicRetard
That must be an earlier issue. The October issue included the Chips N Bits catalog, magazines were published a month in advance.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSonicRetard
http://www.gamepilgrimage.com/sites/...ue_075_081.jpg
That shows Panasonic and Goldstar 3DOs at $300. I'm not sure if the "Jaguar Power Pack" is the base console, but it and the CD are $149 each there. Since this particular listing shows the PS1 at $319 and the Saturn at $399, along with the non-existent "Ultra 64" at $249 we would have to average costs before declaring any sort of actual retail price for the month of September.
-edit-
Here is Chips N Bits for EGMs November (October) 1995 issue. The Jaguar + CD and 3DO comparison remains the same if the "Power kit" is the base Jag console. It doesn't look like Chips N Bits was selling Genesis consoles outside of a bundle, or 32X and Sega CDs at all by September of 1995.
http://www.gamepilgrimage.com/sites/...95_nov_113.jpg
I just like to remember that the Jaguar CD is very fail-prone, especially when compared to the FZ-10 model which was widely available in 1995.
Chips & Bits is not a good indicator of price. They were always more expensive.
I'm pretty sure the Jag was dropped to $100 in late 1995.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSonicRetard
http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic...ine-1991-2008/
Quote:
December 16, 1995 - The Atari Jaguar 64-bit Power Kit system package is reduced in price from $150 to $100.
Had Atari Inc stuck around a longer, you might have seen some real, unique in-house releases appearing again . . . as it was, there's an extremely narrow period to compare, and a ton of Atari's in-house (non-arcade) programming/development resources were going into arcade conversions during that same period. With the mess of things as they were (from a number of perspectives) in 1982-1984, it only made that situation worse. James Morgan was a huge improvement over Kassar and was even working hard to cut away the dual management conflict with Warner executives . . . it's just really unfortunate that he came in when he did (mid 1983) given how that impacted their holiday sales season that year on top of it being generally a bigger mess for him to try and resolve. (when the problems really started manifesting seriously in mid 1982, that's when they really needed the management change) Of course, all his efforts went to pot anyway with the way Warner liquidated Atari in 1984.Quote:
Originally Posted by gamevet
Hell, the 7800 itself had even been part of the Warner management conflict situation, given how it was developed without much/any direct contact with Atari Inc, to the extent that Atari Inc engineers (and management/marketing) continued working hard on improving the problems with the 5200 during 1983 (redesigned controllers and lower cost models being prototyped), only to have that entire project shut down in 1984 anyway.
Then there's the whole separate issue (in the 1982 software context) that Atari (among others) was already putting out more games than they should have at all (both in number of releases and quantity manufactured). Granted, Atari itself was largely responsible for the heavily inflated market demand the industry was perceiving at the time, but that doesn't change the fact that the industry itself was growing faster than the consumer end of the market was.
And, had they had realistic market growth and demand figures, the smartest thing to have done would have been scaling back on most operations in general to account for that . . . Atari was spending way too much money on basically everything back then, and that's the main thing Morgan was working to fix in '83 and '84. (overspending on R&D -and doing so in less than useful areas- was a big part of that too, including both software and hardware R&D, yet they still managed to be horribly inefficient in some R&D areas that were really important . . . nearly all problems relating to growing too fast from not having proper moderation from good management across the board -division infighting was related to that too)
Now, with that in mind, whether or not such scaled back development would have included any more unique console/computer games is still a separate issue. It very well may have meant less intense software development (quite possibly less staff and/or shorter hours being worked/paid), and some additional longer-term projects perhaps being facilitated, but overall quantity of new releases would still decrease. (average quality would likely increase, and while a majority of games would still probably have been arcade conversions, they too would have been fewer and more selective of the most deserving . . . and higher quality on top of that)
The Pac Man license would obviously have been handled better, and Atari probably never would have licensed ET at all. (or rather, Warner wouldn't have gone in and licensed it without their approval . . . in fact, Kassar had already attempted to license ET earlier and dropped the idea when Spielberg/Universal asked way too much money and had unreasonable conditions on the license . . . the same things that made Warner's later contract for ET so horrible -granted, actually trying to make money of ET sales was a mistake on Kassar's part, they'd have been better off cutting their losses and producing a few hundred thousand tops, that was the huge problem with Pac Man too, from a business standpoint)
What software? What time are you talking?Quote:
I do believe if Atari had just stuck with software publishing (sure worked for Activision) for the computers and stayed out of the console market, they could still be around today.
Well, in the Atari Corp perspective, I suppose being a publisher would have made sense in the mid 90s given the situation they were already in. They didn't have good management or in-house development resources, but the brand was still useful and they had a lot of IP to work with too.
So yeah, from a 1993 perspective, shifting towards a publishing only stance (maybe keeping the Lynx going), and writing off the Jaguar (or, better, trying to sell the design) probably would have been the best business move for them in general.
I can definitely agree with this in general.
OTOH, this was the very thing that had been suggested slightly later when new management/business consultants had been brought in, but Sam Tramiel refused to take that direction.
Of course, had they had the sense to do the smart thing there, that would also imply they'd have had better sense earlier on . . . and if you follow that all the way back to 1988/1989 when things started turning sour for Atari Corp, then they'd almost certainly never have gotten into the Situation they were in in 1993-1995.
I'm going to agree in part here (as above), but content the "failure" of those consoles. 5200 only failed because Atari cancelled it and started planning around the 7800. The 5200 itself hadn't been executed well in general (especially considering the 3200 and 8-bit as alternative platforms), but after the fact of its release it made far more sense to continue with it and attempt to address its shortcomings than to scrap it entirely in favor of another new platform.Quote:
You'd think someone would have got the hint after the failures of the 5200, 7800 and Lynx, but they insisted on shooting themselves with the wasted expenses on the Jag to seal the deal to oblivion. Aircars, really?
--I will say, if they wanted to drop the 5200 at all, it would have made a lot more sense to drop it and not release any new platforms for a time. (shifting 5200 development and marketing towards the 8-bit line instead, along with the 2600 as the budget platform) Not to mention how much more sense that made in hindsight in the context of computers being more popular than consoles in Europe and also immune to Nintendo's licensing policies. (further, focusing on low-cost, gaming-capable computing platforms in general would have been a really interesting route to pursue for the long run . . . their license on the Amiga chipset -and maybe some of the in house alternatives from Atari Inc- would have been interesting in that context too)
The 7800 in general wasn't a failure . . . it sold relatively well and was profitable. Given Atari Corp's situation at the time, it wasn't bad at all, but they didn't continue improving things from 1989 onward on the console or computer fronts. (again, I personally don't think the 7800 was a good idea ever for Atari Inc or Atari Corp . . . and I understand even less why Atari Corp continued with it rather than sticking with the A8 as the mid/low-end games platform -the 64k A8 models weren't priced much higher than the 7800 at the same time, so a 16k or 32k model with some other packaging/design cost-cuts probably could have matched the 7800's price in general too) Then again, the XEGS didn't make much sense either. (especially the price point)
Lynx was interesting, but I'll agree as a business failure in most regions . . . not a bad idea for the most part, but crap management to go along with it and a much tougher niche to compete in (as Sega discovered as well). From that context though, the Panther probably would have been a bit of a mess management-wise too, though it at least probably would have been easier to get interest/support for than the Lynx. (handhelds, again, being rather difficult)
I think it, along with other sources of course, is a good indicator of price comparison but not actual MSRP. We can tell that in September-October they were selling the Saturn for 20% more than the PS1 for example. I'll rummage through my Gamepros to see what I can find today. I didn't realize I stopped my price comparison chart in August of 1995.Quote:
Originally Posted by j_factor
Not only that, they showed AND priced hardware/software that didn't exist! Jaguar VR headsets available to the public? Casper for the Mars 32x? Crazy.Quote:
Originally Posted by j_factor
Hey guys just picked up a 3do and didn't want to start a new thread.
Is there anyway for the 3do to product RGB out? Like with a Scart cable? Or the best possible picture is the s-video out?
RGB out requires modding and it's not one of the easiest cases AFAIK. But, seriously, even composite on the 3DO already looks good (much better than the PS1's IMO); you can't really go all that wrong with its S-Video. You'll see little interest in RGB modding for the 3DO in its specific forums, 'cause its standard output options are already great IMO (unlike the Mega Drive, for an example).
Wow , you weren't kidding I turned on the system for the first time last night. I was completely surprised how great it looked with standard cables, I only have one game, and that's super street fighter. But wow this system has impressed me, and looks fantastic!.
S-Video and Component or RGB for the same resolutions are just a matter of white level differences from what I have seen. Introducing modern conversion mods alters the original colors and white/black levels more than is necessary in my opinion. With only minor adjustements even SD resolution VGA output can be recorded just fine with S-Video output.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RPimF-WNIk&list=UUu4faGQpaag-3t-HXDoM9ug&index=6
I'll take both
Speaking of the Jaguar,
Any hardcore collectors on here with cash to spare?
http://i48.tinypic.com/csrjs.jpg
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Atari-Jaguar.../221208069034?
Very cool.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thierry Henry
Sonic, post 1 was a great read and cool pictures. I saw a Jaguar and 3DO at a local shop and might buy them, what top 5 games for each do you (or others) recommend out of the ones posted ?
I played SSF2T on 3DO and AvP, Rayman, Tempest2000 and Doom on Jaguar in past but what else is great to good to fill out a top 5 ? I like a variety of games. Even a great homebrew would be cool.
3DO
01 SSF2T
02
03
04
05
Jag
01 AvP
02 Tempest2000
03 Doom
04
05
For 3DO, Wing Commander III, Road Rash, Need for Speed, Starfighter, Star Control 2, Super Wing Commander, Total Eclipse, Samurai Shodown and Star Wars Rebel Assault are all must haves. For Jaguar see the OP again, but Rayman and Super Burnout would also be must haves.
Thanks sheath. I'll pick some of those up for 3DO. Yeah I saw a giant list in op but wanted to know top 5, so thanks, I'll check out Super Bun Out for Jag.Quote:
Originally Posted by sheath
Jag has a lot more than that too, it just isn't in popular genres. You were around in the 80s, remember when games didn't have to be AAA to be fun?Quote:
Originally Posted by djvectorman
Yeah, I didn't mean AAA, just what is your personal top 5 for each so I could try them out.
Well, AAA is somewhat synonymous with "best of" lists. Sorry for the confusion. I don't think Cybermorph is bad, it just isn't great, also that mech game is certainly not bad either despite the graphics. Dang what is it called? Doom is great despite the lack of music. Wolf 3D and Flashback run as well or better as most versions. Eh, I'd have to re-read the OP to come up with more, or watch one of my comparison videos again, meh.
Yeah I'll be interested in hearing what you think are the best for a top 5 iyo. I have Wolf on 32x, and Flashback on MD, but the games you listed so far will fill out my top 5. But if you think something is better than Rayman or Super Burnout let me know iyo.
You will be waiting a very long time. I can't even make a top list for consoles I've played since I was a kid.Quote:
Originally Posted by djvectorman
Ha ha.
Just a little aside: I got a 3DO not long after the Game Sack special and I am so happy with it. I only have 12 games, but I've had a lot of fun with it which makes me sad that it couldn't really get off the ground bitd.