I'm just gonna leave this for Genesis fans to see.
http://www.nintendoage.com/forum/mes...threadid=97434
And that mindset is why Nintendo dominates mainstream retro gaming and Genesis is a relic.
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I'm just gonna leave this for Genesis fans to see.
http://www.nintendoage.com/forum/mes...threadid=97434
And that mindset is why Nintendo dominates mainstream retro gaming and Genesis is a relic.
Oh nintendo fanboys...
Arguing with them is not a whole lot different from arguing with TA I suppose
I don't want to hear about Nintendo fans until someone does something about Sonic fags.
Chris Chan has a higher IQ than Failtain1
HAHAHAHA agreed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamahl
Oh look, someone said something negative about Sega on a Nintendo-themed board, never seen that before.
I'm more interested in that thread; is the OP actually planning to make a homebrew port or is it just all hypothetical?
Not surprising, since the Nintendo Age forums are a pale rip off of Atari Age.
The difference between Atari Age and Nintendo Age is that Atari Age has been around much longer, the site is more professional and organized, there are more adults around, it's an actual resource to the video game community, not just for Atari, etc.
I was happy to play the Game Boy and its revisions throughout my childhood along with the NES, SNES, and N64, but I missed out on a lot of other products from Sega. I regret that about my past, so I'm making up for it! All these years later, I appreciate the Sega systems more (Game Boy and NES have a slight edge over Game Gear and Master System). My N64 should've been replaced with a Saturn and Dreamcast! And I've played a LOT of N64.
And I disagree that the Genesis is a "relic". I'm playing it a hell of a lot more than the SNES! No bias included!
I can appreciate customer loyalty but this just becomes a case of "cutting your nose off to spite your face." It's a childish pissing contest which was appropriate in the 90's because most parents could only afford one or the other, so it's natural as a kid to knock what you don't have; but this is 2013, you aren't going to break the bank buying a Genesis and a few quality titles today - so why bust your ass to emulate one game? For some macho-chis mo, bleeding-heart fan syndrome? I'm itching my head on this since my buddies and I usually envied the rich kids who owned both a Genesis and SNES.
This thread should not have been made, it will only start forum wars and childish bickering,
OH NOES SOMEONE SAID SOMETHING ABOUT SOMETHING I LIKE, EVERYBODY MUST KNOOOOOOOOOOOW!
They are just people like us, everybody has the right to think what they want, okay so that person hates the Genesis, some here hate the Snes,
I for one love both, and like to see the plus points of both.
What's even funnier than that is that Gunstar Heroes would never run on the SNES as is without severely limiting the number of sprite objects on screen. Higher limit or no, the SNES can't move that many sprites around and it probably can't do some of the special effects either. Not as a port anyway.
It only gets worse as time goes by. I remember the arguments as a kid but we ended up playing each others systems. No one was going to say the SOR was crap and I wasn't going to bash SFII on the SNES. As time went by though and Sega continued to shot itself in the foot over and over most people have forgotten that. Many people who bash it never have even played one. I have called more then a few especially when I was working with lots of kiddies 10 years younger than me. Also a surprising amount of people look the two systems like Coke and Pepsi.
I echo this opinion. Flame wars are pointless. Especially for those of us that own a wide spectrum of video games. Like you, I own both the Genesis and SNES. I wish I had a Turbografx/PC Engine, but they tend to be more expensive.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoVamp
Now that these systems are cheaper than they used to be, there shouldn't be any issue in owning multiple systems from different companies and keeping an open mind.
I'm not sure they even look at it that evenly, it seems like people look at it like Coke/Pepsi versus Fanta or Big K. It is as though they have been so convinced they found the name brand item and anything else is obviously generic and is worse in every way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Lizard
Its not the majority but I have meet a lot of people that say, "they were like the same thing"
That's a funny opinion, but I'd guess those people think that way since there were a number of games ported to both the Genesis and SNES. I can see how that would be confusing to someone looking from the outside in.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Lizard
I think most people that say that were/are casual gamers. They also often say things when I bring up old games like "You know what game I really liked?- Sonic!" or "DKC!"
Man, if I got that most of the time I wouldn't have ever been motivated to make comparisons of any kind. Really, most comparisons I have made have left me feeling more like both platforms were equal with trade offs than anything else.
It's like a forum full of TA's....but much less entertaining versions of him.Quote:
Originally Posted by TmEE
I don't even mind that someone favors the SNES over the Genesis I just hate when they act like the Sega was a joke. Its like saying the Germans occupying most of Europe was only a small feat.Quote:
Originally Posted by sheath
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Lizard
Hah, good comparison. But you know, Sega was run by a bunch of monkeys that never had a collective thought between them. I mean it's obvious, just look at the add-ons. God bless that Dreamcast though.
It's revisionist history and stupidity gone viral. Anyone who was there and halfway paid attention knows what a fierce competitor the Genesis was for the SNES, but after Sega's failure with the Saturn and canceling of the DC everyone want's to believe that everything they did was complete shit. The truth is exactly the opposite, even for the Saturn which was a really good console despite being a flop.
Atariage and Sega-16 are the only platform-specific sites I really know of like this . . . maybe aside from some home computers (AtariForum is pretty good too iirc). Digitalpress is OK for some things, but that's more of a general forum anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by FuturePrimitive
I do find it funny though that Guntz got that sort of idiotic/trollish comment (from failtrain1) rather than a legitimate/critical/technical response on the issue. The OP seemed to be interested in actually working on some sort of homebrew project and/or a hypothetical tech discussion on the issue, and that iself would be a good counter to Guntz's comment. :p (granted, that thread is very short as it is . . . and there's the possibility that it'll end up inundated with trolling/flaming instead of a real discussion on the original topic too, but, yeah)
It's like arguing why Chilly Willy bothered with Wolf3D on the 32x (or plans for the Sega CD) . . . it's neat and a useful tech demo and introduction for further development (contributed to Chilly Willy's toolset among other things).
It would be a different game in some areas (if really optimized for the SNES), but technically speaking, there's really no reason that it couldn't be done with virtually the same level design/sprites/bosses, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by sheath
The SNES can move a similar number of sprites around . . . it's just an issue of doing that (with collision detection) in a way that avoids slowdown (not nearly as bad on games with 3.58 MHz ROM -remember, a huge number of SNES games run at 2.68 MHz).
If you were willing to really push for an optimized sprite collision detection engine (perhaps still with more slowdown than the MD), you'd still have some bigger problems to deal with:
-there's the more problematic DMA bandwidth constraints for animation (VRAM updates) on the SNES and greater difficulty in using ROM space due to compression issues. (albeit, with no CPU overhead going to decompression -and just relying on more ROM- that should alleviate some of the issues with CPU resource in general)
-Then there's the issue of the SNES's sprite engine in general being much more limited than the MD when you need a variety of different sizes, and the MD is exceptional in this respect (sprites of any size from 8, 16, 23, or 32 pixels wide or tall for a total of 16 different sprite sizes) and the SNES is limited to only 2 sprite sizes on-screen and always squares of 8, 16, 32, or 64 pixels, so much more limited in efficient sprite bandwidth usage as well as VRAM space consumption (and DMA bandwidth for animation). Having 128 vs 80 sprites on-screen helps this somewhat, but it also means you're likely going to hit the per-line sprite bandwidth limits sooner (272 pixels or 32 sprites per line -the latter doesn't even matter unless you're using 8x8, since 16x16 will limit to 17 sprites per line, and larger sprites will hit that sooner).
Both the DMA bandwidth constraint and sprite usage issues could be helped partially by resizing all sprites to the native aspect ratio of the SNES (redrawing everything to be 4/5 the width of the MD graphics), but that alone will only solve a handful of cases where those resized sprites fit to convenient SNES sprite size parameters.
The real challenge would be optimizing graphics around the SNES's sprite limitations . . . it's a MD game already built around the MD's advantages in flexibility, so you're going to have to modify sprites quite a bit just to get efficient use of sprites and VRAM space and animation bandwidth. CPU usage aside, you want sprites to be as small as possible, otherwise you'll get problems with flicker, run out of VRAM space, and/or hit bottlenecks for animation.
You need to be able to select only 2 sprite sizes to optimize around (from the 4 sizes available), and after figuring out which 2 sizes are least problematic, you'll need to optimize all art around that and make sure to stay within VRAM/DMA constraints while also minimizing filcker/tearing issues. (tearing and slowdown are detriments, but won't keep a game from working . . . VRAM space and DMA bandwidth are hard limits though) Cutting down on some animation frames could help too, but that's only going to help the DMA bandwdith issue. (and ROM size)
With the SNES's 32 sprites per line and 128 on-screen on top of the large number of small projectiles/sprites in Gunstar Heroes, 8x8 may be one of the 2 sizes being most useful for the SNES . . . beyond that you'd probably want either 16x16 or 32x32. (thus meaning all objects must be able to be constructed by a mix of 8x8 and 16x16 or 8x8 and 32x32)
You could opt to use larger sprites exclusively, and that shouldn't be a problem with VRAM usage or DMA bandwidth (sprites are still composed of 8x8 tiles, so you don't waste memory on "empty" tiles in large sprites), and you won't hit the on-screen limit as quickly, but you'll hit the per-line bandwidth limit much faster. (and you've only got 272 pixels per line before tearing)
Using any 64x64 sprites is probably a bad idea, but 16x16 and 32x32 might be a useful option. (there's a lot of areas where most projectiles would be mostly 16x16 anyway, so that's probably a better trade-off than 8x8 and 32x32 . . . and 8x8 and 16x16 would hit the 128 sprite limit way too easily . . . using lots of 8x8 sprites for bullet hell style shooters would be a good option: too bad the SNES sucks for those sort of games :p )
The Genesis VDP's sprite size flexibility is the biggest problem the SNES can't overcome last I checked. They would have to completely redesign Gunstar Heroes around only two sprite sizes per screen. This affects a lot more than people realize even given the SNES' relatively huge sprites per scanline/screen limitation.
I've never heard of that... I'd like to see that game run on the 32X! Where can I get a cartridge?Quote:
It's like arguing why Chilly Willy bothered with Wolf3D on the 32x (or plans for the Sega CD) . . . it's neat and a useful tech demo and introduction for further development (contributed to Chilly Willy's toolset among other things).
It's open source freeware available for download and discussion:Quote:
Originally Posted by FuturePrimitive
http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthr...inally-in-beta!
It's even a problem compared to the PC Engine sometimes (for games not eating up sprites in the BG scenery) since there's a lot more flexibility there too since you can use any of the sprite sizes on-screen at once. (16 or 32 wide and 16, 32, or 64 tall iirc . . . and since it's limited to 16 sprites per line and 256 pixels per line, the lack of 8 pixel wide sprites doesn't really limit anything . . . though the use of 16x16 cells for sprites rather than 8x8 tiles makes efficient use of VRAM -and animation bandwidth- more difficult than the 8x8 cells on SNES and MD -MD can also share tiles between sprites and BG graphics, not sure if SNES does that)Quote:
Originally Posted by sheath
And even if the SNES was allowed to use all 4 sprite sizes at once, that's still a big limit compared to the 16 sizes available on the MD. If the SNES had a higher per-line pixel limitation, it wouldn't be nearly as bad though, and 64x64 sprites in particular could have been used a lot more freely.
The x68000 had some different bad limits on sprites too . . . you get 128 on screen, 32 per line, and 512 pixels per line, but have 16x16 as the only size. FM Towns also only has 16x16, but having 1024 on-screen make a huge difference there. (enough sprites to build 4 solid BG layers at 320x200)
Gunstar Heroes could probably be done with the SA-1, or maybe even the Super FX like how Yoshi's Island used it. But a stock SNES? Impossible.
I'd like to find some way to make this run on real hardware. I wish I could make it run on an EverDrive cartridge or something.Quote:
It's open source freeware available for download and discussion:
http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthr...inally-in-beta!
*Edit*
Found this:
I like how nobody even tried to address the OP's question.
Nintendo fanboys may not realise the awesomeness that is the Genesis, but at least the Sega fan base is mostly level-headed people who have a real genuine interest in a wide variety of games rather than mario fanatics on the latest retro gaming fad.
Umm, Super FX wouldn't really help at all . . . and the way Yoshi's Island used it wouldn't be helpful either except in terms of keeping ROM size small (compression). The scaling/rotation/polygon effects wouldn't be useful for doing the effects in Gunstar Heroes (it's pretty much a normal MD game with normal sprite and BG effects, no special software rendering effects)Quote:
Originally Posted by Guntz
OTOH, the SA-1 could definitely help out with the 10.74 MHz 65816 onboard (basically acting in place of the main CPU) and tile/sprite decompression hardware. SA-1 was also cheap and easy to include on-cart (plus made piracy more difficult), so more attractive than Super FX in general. I'm not sure how much RAM was typically included with the SA1, but I'd assume it'd at least be enough to be useful for the variable code/data of a typical game. (a single 32kx8-bit SRAM chip would make sense -which is also what the Super FX typically used too)
Still, that wouldn't address the biggest problems with converting that sort of game (or any heavily optimized MD title for that matter) to the SNES. The big issues are the limitations of the SNES's sprite engine and DMA bandwidth for VRAM updates. (ironic that the SNES's sprite engine is often cited as one of the areas it's superior to the MD, when it's actually more limited in a large number of cases)
Someone should link them to this thread, I think we've had more useful responses here so far. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by j_factor
Chilly uses a Neo Myth cart, but I think the Everdrive works fine too. You can't flash the EverDrive on a 32x, but you can flash a 32x ROM with the Everdrive on a Genesis and then pop that into the 32x and it should work iirc.Quote:
Originally Posted by FuturePrimitive
. . . I wish there was a Neo Myth style cart that used SD Cards though . . . or even something less cheap/common like CF or XD (it uses GBA flash cards unless I'm mistaken). The use of SRAM instead of flash makes things much faster and more reliable. (Everdrives will wear out relatively quickly due to the limited lifespan of flash)
SNES sprite system is more limited in all the cases that matter.
*Looks at thread title*
Hey now ;).
there is.Quote:
Originally Posted by kool kitty89
Alternatively you could get a Mega Everdrive.
I'm pretty sure I can flash ROMs to my Everdrive with the 32X attached no problem.
I don't get why some people feel the need to keep waving nintendo's flag 16 years after the fact. Stupid mindsets from ignorant teenagers. Sega anything is shit on, PCE is ignored, Atari are barely video games, and the Neo Geo is ok. The Neo is like the only pre-5th gen non-nintendo console that gets any credit.
Fan boys for any company are one of the worst things to materialize on the internet.
If you don't think both SNES and Genesis are awesome, really not sure what to tell you.
Someone should just quote koolkitty's post on page 2 over into that NintendoAge thread. It would be interesting to see how they react to a technical post like that.
They'll just deny any technical post that doesn't make the SNES out to be god in the machine. That's assuming any of them will understand it, which most probably won't.Quote:
Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118