Sega Genesis Fatal Fury MOTW Port

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Originally Posted by Da_Shocker

now I would like to see what the 32X was fully capable of.

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Check Mortal Kombat II for 32X, that's all the 32X was good for when it came to 2D games,
32X might be interesting if you do ports of 3D games like Wolf3D or Doom or Quake, but 2D games.. it all boils down to this :

A 256 color background and 16 color sprites.

MOTW's on 32X? backgrounds that are lower in res then the original game but colorwise do not lose much,
sprites that are still 16 colors so you'd still be playing it on the Genesis, except with more colorful backgrounds.

and to get these colorful backgrounds you need a bigass setup of cables, just.. for.. those.. backgrounds.

I don't know guys, 32X just never seemed worth it to me.. so much work for some extra colors, might as well just jump to another system.

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Originally Posted by NeoVamp

Check Mortal Kombat II for 32X, that's all the 32X was good for when it came to 2D games,
32X might be interesting if you do ports of 3D games like Wolf3D or Doom or Quake, but 2D games.. it all boils down to this :

A 256 color background and 16 color sprites.

MOTW's on 32X? backgrounds that are lower in res then the original game but colorwise do not lose much,
sprites that are still 16 colors so you'd still be playing it on the Genesis, except with more colorful backgrounds.

and to get these colorful backgrounds you need a bigass setup of cables, just.. for.. those.. backgrounds.

I don't know guys, 32X just never seemed worth it to me.. so much work for some extra colors, might as well just jump to another system.

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The 32X can only render the BG or the sprites, not both? There's no way to get it to do everything on the screen? If that's true, then it's a dumb setup.

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Originally Posted by zetastrike

The 32X can only render the BG or the sprites, not both? There's no way to get it to do everything on the screen? If that's true, then it's a dumb setup.

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It can render both, you just hit a performance issue I think. I remember Chilly or koolkitty mentioning this.

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Originally Posted by NeoVamp

Check Mortal Kombat II for 32X, that's all the 32X was good for when it came to 2D games,
32X might be interesting if you do ports of 3D games like Wolf3D or Doom or Quake, but 2D games.. it all boils down to this :

A 256 color background and 16 color sprites.

MOTW's on 32X? backgrounds that are lower in res then the original game but colorwise do not lose much,
sprites that are still 16 colors so you'd still be playing it on the Genesis, except with more colorful backgrounds.

and to get these colorful backgrounds you need a bigass setup of cables, just.. for.. those.. backgrounds.

I don't know guys, 32X just never seemed worth it to me.. so much work for some extra colors, might as well just jump to another system.

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That's a terrible example as Probe botched every single Sega port there was. Could we get a 4 player beat em on the Genesis that looked as good as say Revenge of Death Adder? Nope. Could we get it on the 32X? It's possible. With the Genesis there was just a whole gang of great shit that was released and tons of it pushed the Genesis to the limit. Alien Soldier looks great damn shame dumbass SoA made it a Sega Channel exclusive.

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Originally Posted by NeoVamp

Check Mortal Kombat II for 32X, that's all the 32X was good for when it came to 2D games,
32X might be interesting if you do ports of 3D games like Wolf3D or Doom or Quake, but 2D games.. it all boils down to this :

A 256 color background and 16 color sprites.

MOTW's on 32X? backgrounds that are lower in res then the original game but colorwise do not lose much,
sprites that are still 16 colors so you'd still be playing it on the Genesis, except with more colorful backgrounds.

and to get these colorful backgrounds you need a bigass setup of cables, just.. for.. those.. backgrounds.

I don't know guys, 32X just never seemed worth it to me.. so much work for some extra colors, might as well just jump to another system.

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lol, the Neo Geo uses 16 color sprites, tech expert! :p


http://superpcenginegrafx.net/img/ngsp1.png


I guess that the Neo Geo can't do MOTW either. ;)

The Neo Geo also only runs at <320 x 224, so a 32X or Genesis version would be the exact same resolution (MOTW is a 320 pixel wide game).

If you're going to dismiss a console based on tech specs alone, you should at least glance at them first.

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Originally Posted by Black_Tiger

lol, the Neo Geo uses 16 color sprites, tech expert! :p

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That's just the main character, you are aware that he has specials and extra's right?

Check out his sprite sheet (I did) he has lots of extra stuff going on that would require extra palette entries.

I checked his sprite sheet, I counted 201 colors, I'm sure it can be brought down a bit but never enough to fit it all into 16 colors.
now lets say i remove the avatars from that, and maybe the colorful logo's people paste into there, it still comes down to 101 colors,
how about the kid that gets on screen with him when he wins? lets cut him, there we go 88 colors.

whats that? your image only shows a STATIC CHARACTER NOT DOING ANYTHING SO OMG 16 COLORS IS ALL WE EVER SEE?

Wrong.


Backround Resolution wide you got me, I made a mistake, but even then the game would suffer because of the lack of layers.

So the game would look like Garou, till you played it.. then you get cut frames and inferior audio,
static looking backgrounds with (again) cut stuff, missing audio samples, missing art everywhere.

So I'm saying, if you're gonna accept such an inferior product then you might as well play it on a stock Genesis.

Instead of hooking up all that 32X crap, just to play a horrible inferior copy.

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Originally Posted by NeoVamp

That's just the main character, you are aware that he has specials and extra's right?

Check out his sprite sheet (I did) he has lots of extra stuff going on that would require extra palette entries.

I checked his sprite sheet, I counted 201 colors, I'm sure it can be brought down a bit but never enough to fit it all into 16 colors.
now lets say i remove the avatars from that, and maybe the colorful logo's people paste into there, it still comes down to 101 colors,
how about the kid that gets on screen with him when he wins? lets cut him, there we go 88 colors.

whats that? your image only shows a STATIC CHARACTER NOT DOING ANYTHING SO OMG 16 COLORS IS ALL WE EVER SEE?

Wrong.


Backround Resolution wide you got me, I made a mistake, but even then the game would suffer because of the lack of layers.

So the game would look like Garou, till you played it.. then you get cut frames and inferior audio,
static looking backgrounds with (again) cut stuff, missing audio samples, missing art everywhere.

So I'm saying, if you're gonna accept such an inferior product then you might as well play it on a stock Genesis.

Instead of hooking up all that 32X crap, just to play a horrible inferior copy.

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Couldn't you just change the palette in CRAM when you iterate to that frame of animation? Since you'd be making that animation update in VBLANK anyways, I don't see why you couldn't just load in a new palette for that sprite for that frame. If you can do mid-frame palette swaps I'd imagine changing palettes during VBLANK should be easy.

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

Couldn't you just change the palette in CRAM when you iterate to that frame of animation? Since you'd be making that animation update in VBLANK anyways, I don't see why you couldn't just load in a new palette for that sprite for that frame. If you can do mid-frame palette swaps I'd imagine changing palettes during VBLANK should be easy.

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I'm no programmer and I'm not gonna pretend that I know much about this stuff, so i'm just gonna explain the way I see it.

Character = 16 colors

Fireball = ..5 colors?

Both are seen at the same time, how would it be possible to eat away palette entries from a character who doesn't leave
the screen when you do the special attack? For example, remember Terry Bogard in Real Bout? he has a kid show up
when he wins, that too eats extra colors, same in Garou with Kevin Ryan and the kid that shows up, same with Bonne Jennet
and her pirate crew, always seen at the same time, there's no way to swap palette's since the chars never leave the screen
during the special move or win pose.

Unless you go the NES way, where the sprite will flicker between animations, first you see the character, then the special,
then the character, then the special. etc.

but would you accept that on the 32X?

and maybe, maybe the 32X is capable of also displaying sprites with more colors, but I've never seen or heard of it,
and maybe you're right, maybe Garou would be a nice way of showing the 32X's "real powers" but I fear it would
be so much work for so little payoff.

and that's what its ultimately all about, you buy it on a stock genesis cart, and you're done,
you buy it on a dreamcast disc, you're done, ps2 disc? done!

you want to play it on a 32X? hmm just hook it all up first, then flash it on your (expensive) Mega-Everdrive because
its 10Megs big, and don't forget to burn the music disc with music directly recorded from the NeoGeo so you can listen
to the accurate arcade tunes with your 32X/CD setup.

and then? well.. then not only are you consuming quite a bit of power, but you're playing a watered down port,

but hey! its on 32X right?!

The 32X can display sprites with more colors. You can set the priority for 32X graphics individually. So for example MK2 uses the Genesis for backgrounds and the 32X for sprites.

You could also use the 32X for backgrounds and draw the sprites on the Genesis. Use 1 palette for each character, then use the other 2 palettes for specials. So that fireball would become it's own separate sprite. There are ways to get around it.

For audio you could probably do some nice renditions using Chillys DMA audio engines or doing some combinations of PWM and FM.

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

You could also use the 32X for backgrounds and draw the sprites on the Genesis.
Use 1 palette for each character, then use the other 2 palettes for specials.
So that fireball would become it's own separate sprite.

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That might be the best way to solve it, you'd get a 256 color background and fighters that used 2x 16 colors.

32 colors (actually 31) still is an enormous difference compared to the 200 colors of the NeoGeo though.

but doable.

So again, you'd end up with Genesis Garou but with 32X rendered backgrounds, kind of like those old consoles like the Vectrex or whatever it was.

Makes you wonder about how MKII 32X though, what if the backgrounds were done by the 32X and the sprites used this method..
it really depends on what you prefer, shiny characters or shiny backgrounds, MKII speaking I would have preferred the backgrounds to have all the colors.

Just buy a Neo Geo folks. Bite the bullet. The Neo Geo X may get a revision so it's display is better so it may become an option as well.

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Originally Posted by NeoVamp

That might be the best way to solve it, you'd get a 256 color background and fighters that used 2x 16 colors.

32 colors (actually 31) still is an enormous difference compared to the 200 colors of the NeoGeo though.

but doable.

So again, you'd end up with Genesis Garou but with 32X rendered backgrounds, kind of like those old consoles like the Vectrex or whatever it was.

Makes you wonder about how MKII 32X though, what if the backgrounds were done by the 32X and the sprites used this method..
it really depends on what you prefer, shiny characters or shiny backgrounds, MKII speaking I would have preferred the backgrounds to have all the colors.

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As long as there's never a point where your sprites per frame would need more than 61 colors you should be fine. Just because the sprite sheet needs 200 colors doesn't mean you need an entire 200 color palette for that particular sprite.

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

Just because the sprite sheet needs 200 colors doesn't mean you need an entire 200 color palette for that particular sprite.

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oh yeah there's always ways to bring that number down, just because a character sprite has blue eyes (1 pixel duh)
doesn't mean it cant be purple like his fireball. ;)

That or make his fireball blue, whatever floats your boat.

If the fireball and the character use different sprites you shouldn't need to worry about that if both fit in the 16 color limit per palette.

Let me try to make this more clear.

Let's say Character 1's standard palette is 15 colors. So that uses one 16 color palette.

Now let's say a frame of Character 1's power up animation changes his colors needing 16 new colors. Since we are updating that frame already in VBLANK we can just update that palette entry to match that frame. So now that next frame uses 16 new colors without needing a new palette of colors, it just uses the same palette the last frame used but with updated entries.

Now let's say Character 1 throws a fireball. Character 1 still uses his standard 16 color palette, but his fireball now needs 16 colors of it's own. Instead of making them use the same palette we make the fireball a separate sprite and give it it's own palette. Now we have character 1 and his fireball in the same frame using 32 colors individual colors.

So as long as each individual sprite does not need more than 16 individual colors or you don't get more than 4 sprites per frame needing their own 16 color palette you should be able to get by with minimal color compromises if the 32X is handling all the backgrounds.

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Originally Posted by NeoVamp

Ehm, I agree that its surprising that nobody on the Internet ever bothered to make an open source fighter with adjustable importable parameters.

I guess Mugen is to blame, nobody wants to bother because Mugen is good enough for most,

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Okay.

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As for the 32X, I don't care about the 32X, to me its.. its not a Genesis, and most of the joy I get from converting art is trying to get the most out of the limitations of the Genesis.

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Okay.

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I find the 32X a big ugly mushroom that takes away from the beauty that is my Mega Drive, it requires an additional adapter and messing with cables,
even when its fully hooked up you'll encounter problems with Genesis games and flashcarts, forcing you to take it apart again.

all for what? some extra colors? might as well hook up a Playstation then.

So I don't see the point in porting Garou or SFA or SF3 or KOF to the 32X, its too much work and too little a payoff.

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Okay. I can respect your opinion, but mine is different because I put my 32 x (15 + years old) inside my genesis so its not a mushroom. I have 1 power cable to power both. My mega everdrive always works. My genesis games work, I plug my genesis games , 32x games and everdrive in the same 32 x cart slot. Never had any issues.

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A port to the Genesis I could understand, at least then one day you check ebay and see that some Asian pirate made a cart of it,
which he'd never do if it was a 32X game that needed an extra ram cart to get the game working.

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Well Chillys Wolf didnt need extra Ram did it ? What 32 x game would require more ram ? A 2d fighter we speak of ? I like that chilly ported wolf to 32x, it wouldn't be as good on md. I know you like md limits and stuff so do I , like that star fox md demo, bad apple all that stuff is neat, but it'll be nice to have more than 1 neat thing for 32 x (chilly wolfenstein 3d).

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To me the joy is trying to see what a stock Genesis can do, trying to get it to run Garou MOTW and making it look good,
so I think back to whathisface said about MOTW's being impossible to port because it had so many frames, so what? just cut frames,
do you think MKII had all its frames? SF2? UMK3? Fatal Fury? all had frames cut.

aah but then it won't be as fluid as the arcade game and combo's will be different and and and..

SO WHAT? its a fucking port to an inferior system, you'll always end up losing shit, but that didn't stop us from playing the games back then.

Like anyone would bring their Genesis to a tournament and say "hey lets play MOTW on it on a competitive level!"

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I agree. But genesis doing backgrounds and 32x doing characters or whatever could have an advantage. It will be nice playing it on my homebrew neptune.

Edit. I don't have much money either but I like both mugen and ports to actual consoles. I never stopped playing my md/32x/sega cd. I use both emulators and hardware, but I like playing games off my "neptune" better.