CGR
Classic Game Room : SOULSTAR review for Sega CD
IMO very impressive for 1994, sort of looks like a 32 bit game most of time.
CGR
Classic Game Room : SOULSTAR review for Sega CD
IMO very impressive for 1994, sort of looks like a 32 bit game most of time.
Lately I've found myself on a Classic Game Room kick also. Do I dare say that I find Mark's sense of humor and 90's cultural plugins seductive? Anyways,
It looks like a very clean game and certainly draws many similarities to SNES' Star Fox, but for me when you have a quality game backed by a shallow story, it just becomes monotonous arcade-play. I use to wish Shadow Squadron 32x was more of an epic: characters, relationships, plot twists, etc. Perhaps I was being a bit too romantic at 12, but I think some novel/rpg attributes would give a game like this some more depth and longevity.
Cool. Do you think Sega CD COULD do even better more 32 bit like graphics better than that ?
I forgot link ha :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qv-t_cO15p0
Soul Star is what the standard Sega CD game should have looked like. Considering that Batman Returns' driving scenes are faster and has hills and potentially polygonal building sides it probably is a bit more on the hardware intensive side. I personally see the Sega CD's 2D scaling capabilities as much closer to System 32 type games than what we actually got for the system.
Really though, it depends on what you mean by "maxing out" the hardware. Silpheed isn't rendering the backgrounds, but the relatively artifact free full screen video is almost definitely pushing the system to its limits.
I'm looking to pick up Soul Star. The developers must have put so much love into that game, even the title on the cover! Such an awesome logo.
I'm surprised when some people say that Silpheed is overrated. I have much more fun playing Silpheed than the original Star Fox. Silpheed almost looks like the spiritual successor to Zaxxon. I think that Star Fox hit its peak with Star Fox 64.
Shadow Squadron made me "ooh" and "aah" like a little kid when I first saw the gameplay. Love that opening sequence that catapults the ship. Yet another game I'd like to get.
Yeah like the Silpheeds "32 bit like" polygon cut scenes but gameplay like Soulstar but way better with scaling rotation everything the Sega CD can do...I know it's tiring hearing "do you think this has been pushed to full potential/limits" but with Sega CD or 32 x, I feel like we only got to see like 50% of what they can actually do. Soulstar scene with fans on floor with leg mech in that video really impressed me.
I think that is what is wanting in these type of games: A game that intertwines a compelling/quirky story with plot twists, interesting characters, and relationships along with arcade driven gameplay ... now that would have been an epic game especially if you were a fan of the 1970s, 80s, or 90s (campy) television series such as "Buck Rogers in the 25th Century", "Star Trek: The Next Generation", "Quantum Leap", "Star Trek: Deep Space Nine", "SeaQuest DSV", "Babylon 5", etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lync
To be honest my favorite sega CD games are just regular 2D games with better audio like MK, Final fight, Sonic CD, Earthworm Jim SE, etc. If that had been the focus of the sega cd marketing campaign instead of the lameFMV games, it would have done alot better.
Some games may show what they system could be pushed to do in specific areas, but there's a lot of other things that simply weren't pushed in general. It would have been nice to see more games pushing scaled/rotated texture effects in general (to varying extents depending on genre -and on tiles and/or sprites). But it also would have been nice to see some use of realtime 3D engines (with or without texture effects mixed in), not to mention well optimized "tranditional" 2D games (like what the Super CD got, except better due to the added processing power, sound, and RAM capacity). And on top of all that, a broader sampling with experimental use of multimedia to expand on existing PC/console/arcade game styles along with the laserdisc arcade inspired or other styles of "interactive cinema." (PC developers did a better job with that . . . and a few other japanese platforms with multimedia capabilities -computer or PCE CD-)Quote:
Originally Posted by sheath
Actually pushing more for ports of some PC games might have been a better idea than investing as much in-house for some games. (lots of FMV stuff on PC was as good or better, and at least as valid to be on the platform -including several FMV adventure games in the early 90s that never made it to the MCD) Then some early 90s 3D/pseudo 3D stuff that the Sega CD should have handled well or reasonably well. (Wing Commander did come out, but rather late, Wolf 3D never did, among some other interesting ones . . . or some very interesting Japanese computer stuff -Geograph Seal instantly comes to mind -except that was quite late on the x68000 too, in 1994)
The CORE and Clockwork games did make occasional use of texture mapped polygon effects too, namely with some foreground objects (especially bosses) and textured terrain for the Batman examples.
And for the buildings in Batman Returns, I'm now convinced that those are just plain scaling effects (possibly combined with some animation) rather than any sort of 3D projected warped quads. (there are other examples that really do look like textured polygons, but that really just looks like scaling -or probably shrinking specifically, something a Neo Geo game could easily do in hardware without even eating up tons of ROM space with animation :p )
Artifact free video isn't pushing a system to its limits in terms of performance, it could just mean using very limited source material already custom tailored to the system's color limits as well as being well suited to relatively simple compression methods (like tile sorting and RLE). The use of scaled sprites at least makes some use of the added hardware features, and the music is pretty well optimized for the overall sound capabilities.Quote:
Really though, it depends on what you mean by "maxing out" the hardware. Silpheed isn't rendering the backgrounds, but the relatively artifact free full screen video is almost definitely pushing the system to its limits.
Cinepak (or some other FMV formats) may indeed be pushing the system harder in general . . . and I'd argue they definitely are, either in terms of actual work they're pulling off and/or in the actual quality they achieved. Silpheed's video format would probably look absolutely horrible for most of the video Cinepak was used for, albeit it probably would have been significantly better than the various uncompressed super posterized 16 (or rarely 31) color FMV examples for most Japanese stuff . . . or Terminator's FMV.
-Plus, Cinepak was just a format, and there's a ton more it could have been used for than the styles of compressed video shows. By styles I don't just mean live action, but the encoding techniques typically used -the super heavy dithering for one . . . I'm not a fan of super posterized stuff either, but a compromise like limiting the dither threshold to mostly or only checkerboard dither -or pixel pair columns/bars- that blend easily -and could potentially use h-scroll blur- would have been really interesting to see used. (as it was, it looks like Cinepak video seemed to dry to use dither to approximate something higher than 15-bit RGB, while older Sega Film formats -like most Digital Pictures games- seem to use 15-bit RGB images then posterized/dithered down to paletted 9-bit . . . and it seems like posterizing to 12-bit and then dithering to tiled/paletted 9-bit -and using only checkerboard dither- would have been a really interesting compromise for a lot of animation styles -cartoon, CGI, stop motion, or live action- though it probably wouldn't be better in all cases -they didn't ever try that really, though a few uncompressed Japanese games did something similar, like Keio Flying Squadron and some Wolf Team games) Cinepak could be used for the heavily posterized 16 color stuff too, from Wolf Team's video to Sonic CD, and allow significantly higher framerates (and/or screen sizes) without any added artifacting. (or more so if you allowed for some artifacting . . . more so if you optimized for multiple palettes -to get the best color usage, you have to accept occasional tile boarder artifacts)
But on Silpheed in particular again: It's a very nice game and shows a good balance of multimedia usage as well (one of the better uses of in-game sound design on the CD for immersion IMO), and it makes relatively good use of the hardware overall.
I don't think you're alone about that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lync
I think most of us find Mark to be a very attractive lad.
the classic game room is the best video gaming related thing on youtube, the best ones are the old ones though with dave
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUmH3hhTDd0
one of their best imo :)
Hah, what is it with Sega GT's music and people? I have the PC game in my car's CD player right now and listen to it all the time. And oh yeah, they are flat wrong about the cars handling better in Gran Turismo than Sega GT.Quote:
Originally Posted by bultje112
Oh Dave is other guy that used to do videos with Mark ha okay. Yeah Marks CGR rocks. Sheath do you think we could have seen graphics better than this (which looked pseudo 32 bit) :
http://www.gamingsanctuary.com/SoulStar6.jpg
http://www.digitpress.com/dpsightz/segacd/soulstar.jpg
http://www.mobygames.com/images/shot...ion-intros.png
http://www.joeredifer.com/reviews/soulstar3.bmp
Nope, I think Soul Star is nearly perfect color and detail wise for the Genesis VDP's color limitations. It is flipping awesome.
Okay.
Was that what you were looking for then? I mean, performance wise I suppose Soul Star pushes the Graphics CoProcessor pretty well all things considered. What I really would have liked though would be polygons mixed in with the scaling objects, or just faster segments, along with Ricoh + YM2612 + PSG music and sound effects rather than simple CDA.Quote:
Originally Posted by djvectorman
Yes, thank you.
How did people recently figure out how to use Genesis AND Sega CD together on Piers Solar ? I mean Sega never did it (or couldn't?).
It's funny you mention this as just yesterday I received the Pier Solar OST set, and thought to myself how innovative Watermelon was in implementing the Sega CD's audio in conjunction with Genesis game play. Really quite brilliant.Quote:
Originally Posted by djvectorman
Sega did venture down that avenue when looking at the five or six 32x/CD games they had produced (although I'm still uncertain why it was necessary), perhaps it wasn't in their interest to explore this feature as the 16bit era was phasing out and investing further into this market would be nonsensical. Who knows. As cool as it would be to have remastered CD audio game tracks to correspond with my old carts, I think it would under-mind the novelty of video game music during this time.
Nice post Lync.
I have a question, were (guy who composed) SOR studio mastered recordings wavs used on 4 (or 5) in 1 Sega CD compilation, or did they just dub the raw audio (gym or w/e) off the cart and slap that on that compilation. Hope I explained that right, I'm curious of those things.
Like nobody can really hear the difference in audio on ISO (Sega CD games uploaded) are mp3 (or w/e) instead of wav or mpeg-4, but I can.
I think all of the info I could possibly come up with is in the buried Sega CD Mode 1 thread. Basically I can only guess that Sega didn't include soundtrack disks with cartridges due to a combination of potential consumer confusion and wanting to sell two different versions of the same game in cases where the Sega CD version was mostly just a soundtrack upgrade.
Wait why would they need audio CDs for "Sega CD 32 x" games or do you mean the 32 x would be graphics and has audio on CD rom off Sega CD that would come with 32 x carts ? SNES cart had Killer Instinct that came with audio CD but yeah I guess it'll be confusing seeing a Sega CD audio only package cased just like a Sega CD VG case.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lync
There were a couple of 32X CD / Sega CD dual releases that had both disks in the same case. So if you had a 32X you could load up the 32X CD disk or if you just had a Sega CD you'd use that. I wish they made more of those.
Okay thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by sheath
http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:A...Iu8iygpgm8-MDw
Were these going to be an actual releases ?
http://lparchive.org/Sonic-2-Special...ages/cover.jpg
http://i55.tinypic.com/vnjrma.jpg
http://www.unseen64.net/wp-content/g...tis-32x-12.jpg
Edit :
Hmmm
http://www.unseen64.net/2009/09/05/s...32x-cancelled/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=aPqY_2f8Pbw
Also was it true Night Trap 32 x CD had the bathroom scene or any scene removed compared to Sega CD version ?
As far as I know Night Trap 32X CD is the same as the original, only the second Sega CD release with the blue hard box was edited.
The sides of the buildings are simply objects rotated on the Y axis 90 degrees and placed against the object that is not rotated at all. The Sega CD can do this pretty easily. Not a polygon at all, but still "true 3D" if you will, at least in the sense of the perspective gained by rotating it 90 degrees on the Y axis. There is a mech level in Soul Star that also does this with walls that surround the entire underground area. Nothing special, no polygons, just plain scaling and rotating effects like you say.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kool Kitty
Hmm, you must be a musician like my brother and have "absolute pitch," that's hereditary you know.Quote:
Originally Posted by djvectorman
If I understand correctly you are comparing an original cartridge's audio to that of a CD compilation - such as the Dreamcast's "Smash Pack" or an emulation ISO? I'm sure any significant differences you hear depends on how the audio was integrated, perhaps the track was compromised to save space or even considering the hardware as a medium and what its audio specs are effects how sounds are produced.
In the field of music the technique of remastering deals with a hierarchical layering of instruments and sound effects to modernize what was recorded through analog and then reformatting it for digital use. I'm on a small tangent here but since audio is information, how a master track is pressed and transferred determines the complexity of the process and the integrity of the result.
With GYM's being obsolete, I'm sure a composer would restore a video game track in a similar manner to this but it is probably just easier to just recreate the track altogether.
Lastly, the 32X/CD games experimented in favor of trying to utilize and illustrate the 32x's superior graphics capabilities, you'll noticed all of the games are FMV games already available for the CD. I never bothered to look and see if there is a remarkable difference as I didn't find the games terribly interesting to begin with. In the grand scheme, cool idea just not fully executed.
I can hear the difference too. MP3 sounds terrible compared to Redbook.Quote:
Originally Posted by djvectorman
Yes, I used to reggae dj at a radio station, run a recording studio and engineer songs for close to 2 decades. But like somebody said recently when I mentioned that, "who gives a fuck". Does your brother still do music ? That is cool, I recently had to get rid of everything so I'm off to another phase in my life.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lync
Yeah cart audio of SOR Genesis Cart vs SOR version on the Sega CD 5 in 1 compilation. I'm just curious if they just dubbed the audio from the cart or used (at least for music) the composers studio recording masters (wavs). Many Sega CD ISO now a days use mp3 audio instead of (wav/mpeg-4/etc) the original CD audio because uploading a zip with the original CD audio would take longer because of size of file.Quote:
If I understand correctly you are comparing an original cartridge's audio to that of a CD compilation - such as the Dreamcast's "Smash Pack" or an emulation ISO?
I'm just curious if Sega just dubbed the audio from the cart or used (at least for music) the composers studio recording masters (wavs).Quote:
I'm sure any significant differences you hear depends on how the audio was integrated, perhaps the track was compromised to save space or even considering the hardware as a medium and what its audio specs are effects how sounds are produced.
Okay.Quote:
In the field of music the technique of remastering deals with a hierarchical layering of instruments and sound effects to modernize what was recorded through analog and then reformatting it for digital use. I'm on a small tangent here but since audio is information, how a master track is pressed and transferred determines the complexity of the process and the integrity of the result.
With GYM's being obsolete, I'm sure a composer would restore a video game track in a similar manner to this but it is probably just easier to just recreate the track altogether.
Lastly, the 32X/CD games experimented in favor of trying to utilize and illustrate the 32x's superior graphics capabilities, you'll noticed all of the games are FMV games already available for the CD. I never bothered to look and see if there is a remarkable difference as I didn't find the games terribly interesting to begin with. In the grand scheme, cool idea just not fully executed.
Yeah Alec, some these Sega CD ISO sound like crap.
Thanks sheath.Quote:
Originally Posted by sheath
You should probably learn how to edit your posts instead :Y ... so many posts in a row.
But yeah, Soul Star has some pretty darn tootin' graphics.
Just love the way they used the colors, so many hues :)
I do know how to edit (look at bottom of this post). But so what if I post 2 or 3 things in a row especially in my thread? Big fucking deal. Is there anything people here don't complain about ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Robotwo
Hell yeah.Quote:
But yeah, Soul Star has some pretty darn tootin' graphics.
Just love the way they used the colors, so many hues :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJQr3tnjHlg
You know sometimes I let myself be fooled that CGR's guy is a Sega fan because he was one of the few video reviewers that could say anything positive about Sega console libraries. Then he says something like "I've never heard of Soul Star before..." and I remember how much he loves the PS2 and PS3.
Color optimization is nice, on a similar level to Batman and Robin except also making use of multiple palettes on the scaled sections thanks to rendering to sprites as well as one of the BG layers. That and it seems to take advantage of tile mirroring in some areas too. So it's doing a lot of things that cater to the specific hardware that even other good examples of ASIC rendered Sega CD games don't do. (no others render to sprites AFIK, and don't generally make use of tile tricks either -Toy Story and Battle Frenzy do the tile mirroring thing for software rendering though)Quote:
Originally Posted by sheath
All the other ASIC games seem to render to 1 or 2 pseudo framebuffers on 1 or both BG layers (BC Racers and BattleCorps do 2 layers, which is probably part of the reason for the low framerate while still having a large boarder)
I'm pretty sure there are actual texture mapped polygon effects in Soulstar, or at least in Battle Corps. Warped texture mapped quad surfaces were mostly used iirc. (similar to what Joe Montana NFL does)Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Redifer
The building sides in Batman Returns just look like horizontal scaling maybe with a few added frames of animation. There's no rotation at all (in the sense of texture rotation), though I assume you mean the "rotation" animation effect like with a door opening and closing or such. (nothing to do with texture rotation, mind you)
There's also no visible distortion in the textures on the buildings, which you'd expect to see if they were texture mapped polygons (affine texture rendering perspective artifacts), while you do see that sort of distortion in other polygon (or polygon-like) texture effects. (save for the rotated perspective scaled ground and ceilings or similar surfaces where there's a fixed PoV and perspective can be set using raster effects Mode 7 style) Both Batman games seem to use textured polygon effects in other areas.
I'd never head of Soulstar until 2009 when I started looking into the Sega CD in general. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by sheath
OTOH . . . Mark Bussler most definitely is a Sega console fan, and I'm pretty sure he's had his Sega CD since the 90s as well. Not being immediately familiar with that game probably has more to do with marketing than anything else . . . that or commonality at used game stores. (it's not tough to expensive to find online)
I think the only Sega console Mark didn't own until recently is the 32x. (not counting the Japan-only ones)
We discussed the Sega CD vs SNES CD once and posted many pictures but not sure where it was and I didn't want to make a thread about this, so I'll post this here.
http://img128.imageshack.us/img128/3...714x9583tj.jpg
http://www.segabits.com/wp-content/u.../12/SEGAcd.jpg
http://img82.imageshack.us/img82/986...032crop668.jpg
http://img82.imageshack.us/img82/183...rop686x916.jpg
Yeah, there's an old digitalpress thread with a bunch of SNES CD stuff on it.
Boy that takes me back!! I had that issue of EGM. I had an SNES and my friends had Genesis's's's (Genisi?) at the time and couldn't wait to throw it in their faces!! Thanks Nintendo!! Or should I say... Thanks SONY for screwing that up! ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by djvectorman
So of course I got my parents to buy me a Genesis and a Sega Cd... Which I love, but really wanted to play Star Trek TNG - SnesCD game!!
Edit: I'm guessing if they went through with the SNESCD addon... We probably would of gotten a finished and completed Mario FX!
http://www.unseen64.net/wp-content/g...a/MARIO001.JPG
Which I know we did on N64.. but still would have been cool to see it running on SNES.
Wow, so that is a 32 bit Mario running on 32 bit SNES CD add on attached to 16 bit SNES? Impressive. Ha Mario32. No Mario32 or Sonic Xtreme, damn.Quote:
Originally Posted by mrbigreddog
Okay if your interested I found where we posted more pictures and articles in SNES CD discussion that time. Post 167 , 169 and others :
http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthr...Genesis/page12
If you were a Sega/Mega CD fan in the day, then would have known all about Core and the likes of Soul Star not just in the UK but also the USA. Gamefan alone used to be massive CORE fans and do huge specials about their Mega CD games . With regurads to the Mega CD/SEGA CD many people came late to it and before they owned the system fell for the same rubbish that they was only a handful of good games and only Sonic CD and Final Fight were any good.Quote:
Not being immediately familiar with that game probably has more to do with marketing than anything else
Soul Star must have pushed the Mega CD more than most, but I still say Cliffhanger, Batman Returns look the better games (even if they aren't handling as much)