Dragonforce kicks ass. What are we talking about again?
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Dragonforce kicks ass. What are we talking about again?
I think some people confuse "bland" with "tinny" . . . not to mention "bright" and "tinny" (or grating sounds that are more an aesthetic preference -like some of the TFIV instruments :p ).Quote:
Originally Posted by Robotwo
Like GEMS based games (and similar) with very bland sounding instruments (regardless of composition) with no life to them . . . lack of decent use of vibrato and/or harmonization with other channels, and/or other modulation or volume effects, or echo/reverb simulation via paired channels (a big one for most good sounding MD music). Similar problem with some older chiptunes and, of course, FM synth in DOS games. (and mediocre YM2151 use in US arcade games)
I know it's kind of funny to mention that right next to the SNES's overuse of reverb, but the actual tactful and GOOD use of echo and reverb in chiptunes makes a big difference . . . most MD music that sounds better than SNES music does that. :p (along with cleaner, brighter sounding instruments, stronger bass, and -in some cases- good sampled percussion -Vapor Trail and Mega Turrican are the top examples for me . . . and pretty much anything from Furniss)
Agree . . . more the grating guatar than the high freq screaming power metal guitar riffs though. (the guitar at the beginning of the song is the "grating" one)Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamahl
That said, it's at least not bland like GEMS stuff. :p (the bad GEMS stuff, of course)
Actually I find this remix of Metal Storm more tolerable in some ways:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mU34_VngstI
Oh, and to clear the air of that in general:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdY4EKAcW4Q
Ahh, there we go. ;)
Oh, and a GOOD TFIV tune:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJE-iAE1Mt8
Well, the ending theme is probably the most awesome in general, but stage 1 is the most obvious/iconic.
Edit:
Might as well add Vapor Trail:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XG1c2U4ld2Y (gotta cover my bases for top 10 stuff)
Emulators, Gens/GS specifically. You can't test this on real hardware unless you cut the audio lines on the 32x itself. The 32x mixes sound through the cart slot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vector
And to be specific on VR, the engine zoom by sound at the SEGA logo is stereo PWM on the 32x, but everything else is through the Genesis DAC. (along with PSG and FM) It's also only doing 1 sound channel, so speech and SFX are mutually exclusive, as are drums. (they do a good job optimizing for that though)
Don't forget looping and pitch shifting for some sounds. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Black_Tiger
They both sound like crap in their own ways . . . though with a better playback engine and better preprocessing (even if still 4 kHz 8-bit linear PCM), the MD version could have sounded a lot better too. (still more muffled than the PCE version though . . . )
I'm also assuming they ripped things straight from the ~7.5 kHz 4-bit ADPCM arcade samples, which aren't stellar in the first place:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWXCTt6KRbU (so you have ADPCM artifacting compromising both the MD and PCE versions) Had they had uncompressed sources to work with, that would have been great, of course.
And in that case, putting some fairly heavy filtering onto those samples before converting them down to 4 kHz 8-bit PCM probably would have been better. (that and normalizing audio and boosting volume to improve SNR for 8-bit PCM)
The Turbo beta still has those problems, though the playback is more even at least.
Had they used SMPS, they could have opted for 4-bit DPCM at 2x the sample rate . . . that probably would have been better even without much better preprocessing.
Don't forget "don't bother with preprocessing to optimize with filtering and normalize sound when converting"Quote:
Take a sound clip, no matter how long and drawn out.
Do not edit it or mess up the speed/pitch or distort it in any way.
Lower the quality
and "use a crappy playback engine that introduces additional distortion"
It's the same as the difference between these two pic-
http://superpcenginegrafx.net/misc/mdsound1.pnghttp://superpcenginegrafx.net/misc/snessound1.png
Quote:
Unfortunately, most people will champion the beauty of the pic on the right, while trashing the quality of the pic to the left. Most unfortunate of all though, is that those who make up the majority honestly believe that popular opinion is the only true measure of anything and fact based discussion is for "fanboys".
If muffling was the only difference, I'd tend to agree (which is why I argued heavier filtering in preprocessing could have been better for the MD samples), but that's not even the main issue here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vector
The issue is how horribly hacked up and garbled the samples are on WW/Turbo, they're absolutely butchered. You must be able to notice that, at very least by comparing side by side. (as in the superpcenginegrafx comparison)
And again, with better preprocessing on those 4 kHz 8-bit PCM samples, and even playback, the MD should have had significantly BETTER sounding samples than the SNES. Even (non garbled/distorted) playback alone would have put it in the lead IMO, but more optimized encoding would have helped a lot more. Using 4-bit DPCM or PCM at 2x the sample rate would have been interesting too, though with the low quality source material, filtered 4 kHz 8-bit samples probably would be better. (filter out the artifacting from the 7.5 kHz ADPCM)
Unlike the SNES where there's nothing they could have done beyond using more ROM, and streaming samples on the fly to update SPC RAM (not trivial either). They managed things better in SSFII on the SNES. (still muffled and low quality, but not hacked up . . . MD samples were better prefiltered too, but playback was still crap . . . and the cut out all sampled drums too)
If you argued Super SFII's speech was better on the SNES than MD, I'd totalyl understand that argument . . . it's a LOT more straightforward. (muffled and low quality vs muffled, low quality, and distorted/garbled)
You also know that optimization of the samples can make a world of difference too, right? Well optimized 8-bit PCM can easily sound better than non-optimized 16-bit PCM. Now, for realtime mixing, that's another story, since that sort of optimization isn't really practical . . . so an 8-bit output mixing multiple 8-bit PCM channels will sound worse than a 12-bit or 16-bit output, since you're limited to less than 8-bit resolution per channel. (even then, if you used fixed volume and only mixed 2 channels, it could be pretty close -well optimized 7-bit samples can sound great too -TmEE's TMSE driver on the MD uses 22 kHz 7-bit PCM samples specifically . . . well, technically unpacked 7-bit samples stored as 8-bits, allowing the driver to mix them to 8-bit output with no loss in quality)Quote:
Originally Posted by Vector
So yes or no, VF voices like VR tire sound comes from Genesis ? I guess you are saying no ?
Yes. Exactly what I was talking about the entire time.Quote:
Originally Posted by kool kitty89
Yes. But for drums I prefer gritty and fatty 12 bit to the more digity sounding 16 bit or flat styled 8 bit. That is me though. For sampling instruments like pianos, I prefer 16 bit. I then midi the 2 machines, because I like 12 bit sounding drums with more clear pianos during sequencing/song making. Sample source is included in convo of course, playback levels, as you stated or equalization or other things. I like the drums on snes games more than genesis games, from what I heard. The snes drums actually sound like kicks snares and open hi hats instead of toms claps and closed hats on md. SNES has nice bass for drums imo. I'm not sure what is all involved with vg stuff. I don't even know how the programmers take the compositions and sound effects and code it so it plays off the cart at certain levels or times and other stuff then chip outputs that digital signal or if there are filters inside MD idk. I'm only going by music machines I had, which was a lot.Quote:
You also know that optimization of the samples can make a world of difference too, right?
It could.Quote:
Well optimized 8-bit PCM can easily sound better than non-optimized 16-bit PCM. Now, for realtime mixing, that's another story, since that sort of optimization isn't really practical . . . so an 8-bit output mixing multiple 8-bit PCM channels will sound worse than a 12-bit or 16-bit output, since you're limited to less than 8-bit resolution per channel. (even then, if you used fixed volume and only mixed 2 channels, it could be pretty close -well optimized 7-bit samples can sound great too -TmEE's TMSE driver on the MD uses 22 kHz 7-bit PCM samples specifically . . . well, technically unpacked 7-bit samples stored as 8-bits, allowing the driver to mix them to 8-bit output with no loss in quality)
Edit :
Taking something at those numbers from Arcade all from that time, I understand. But you could take cd quality audio and sample it in a 8 bit linn9000 and have it sound way clearer than the md, which was released 5 years later. So why didn't they record the voices and master it at 44.100 then lower the bit rate to even 4 bit so it can be a manageable size cart to play samples from ? Or did they take the lower quality samples from Arcade, then lower bit rate them more ?
One more thing. I don't care if the snes sf2 voices are chopped and sf2 md voices are not chopped. It's not like the snes sf2 goes "fffff--iiiii--ggghhhh----tttttt" it goes "fight". You can play a piano for 4 seconds, and if I just sample it straight for 4 seconds on a bank on a 8 bit or 12 bit sampler or have limited sampling of 1 second per bank on a 8 bit or 12 bit sampler, and I can still precisely time the sampling so when I play it back the 4 banks it sounds just as smooth as 4 second one with just bank. It's all how you do it. And none of this matters, the only thing that matters is how they sound outputted, not should of would of, the snes sf2 voices win. It's obvious.
Again, I'd say "grating" more than screeching . . . though TBH, some of Tiido's SMFPlay demo tunes have a similar quality. :p (like the guitar in guilty gear remix . . . and rusty sawtooth . . . the buzzy guitar in Ken's theme -NOT Guiles theme, that Xmas theme thing and such)Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamahl
Sheath forgot to mention Gauntlet IV and Master of Monsters . . . especially the latter. ;)Quote:
Yeah, there's a reason Yuzo Koshiro's work is so adored.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFSF6RhFJak
Yeah . . . not the worst of the GEMS games by any means, but not great. (it fares OK)Quote:
It's barely noticeable, really weak sounding instruments (note: not bad sounding, weak). The options tune is pretty much the only standout.
Earthworm Jim 1 and 2, and Comix Zone are the only "good" GEMS soundtracks IMO. (Toy Story is probably above average)
Oh, and as far as GEMS goes, at least we can say it wasn't responsible for the train wreck of a soundtrack that Fantasia got . . . well I guess fitting for the game in general. :p
You can still download the videos off there site if you look for the stuff:Quote:
Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118
http://www.superpcenginegrafx.net/sf...omp_sound.html
(the text/graphic icons/pannels are the links . . . the YT links are dead of course) Those full downloads are the better quality options anyway. :p (and not a big deal unless you have terrible internet bandwidth)
MD SFII Beta is the closest to the arcade music overall . . . not always in instrumentation, but in overall composition at least. (and unlike other console versions, the beta has the frantic tracks switch in rather than just speeding up the normal themes)Quote:
For example Vega's Theme:
The Arcade sounds the best, then the Genesis Beta sounds the closest to that. Then it's downhill from there with the SNES version sounding absolutely nothing like it's supposed to.
I get the feeling that that beta was better optimized overall than SCE. (remember it's just a 2 MB ROM too)
Now that's a good point too. I think you'll still find a decent number of "even" sounding SNES speech and perhaps better in-game speech on average, but also nothing to match the best sounding speech on the MD. (particularly the sound bites in some splash screens and such)Quote:
Originally Posted by Black_Tiger
Earthworm Jim 2 comes to mind for having decent speech used in-game on the SNES . . . that and there's actually semi-decent percussion in that game too. The MD version has even PCM playback, but it's very coarse . . . the specific artifacting seen there is common in GEMS based games, and I'm going to bet they're using 4-bit PCM samples (GEMS only supporting 4-bit and 8-bit linear PCM). Same things for the voices/SFX in MK3 and most other coarse/staticky sounding samples in GEMS games. (even playback is mostly avoided by the polling-timer based playback method)
Given the preference for muffled over gritty and bright, I wonder if some of those would have been better off with 8-bit PCM at 1/2 the sample rate and heavy filtering applied in preprocessing. (or optimizing things on a per-sound basis, since some would favor different amounts of filtering and 4-bit over 8-bit) That of course, being aside from sacrificing ROM space to allow higher quality 8-bit samples.
That also goes for the drums used in Earthworm Jim 2. (they're pretty coarse/gritty sounding too . . . seems to use the same source sample as the SNES version's drums too and -gasp- sounds weaker on the MD -I'm still guessing, but it really sounds more like 4-bit PCM than low sample rate 8-bit)
I wonder how Matt Furniss felt about his work. I think Tallarico seemed seemed OK with his work too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamahl
I used that Master of Monsters song as my YM3438 on model 1 Genesis mod as an example..
It's such a great song to hear.
Ha post 208 below, we all agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by evildragon
http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthr...nd-32-x/page14
I also mentioned it in post 99 of this thread.
Already did that. Whoever wants to finish it up or alter the voice list or make a music comparison list can too.Quote:
Originally Posted by kool kitty89
I'll add, it's nice playing some md games hearing that nice sounding "Seeeegggaaa" greeting. Do snes games on snes start up have nintendoooo, noooooo, it nintendon't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vector
The closest you'll get for SNES is a slurred "JALECO!".Quote:
Originally Posted by Vector
Not it doesn't do that, but it does do this:Quote:
Originally Posted by Vector
"FINL.ROND.FYTE!"
Where as the Genesis, Arcade and PC-Engien versions do this:
"FINAL ROUND, FIGHT!"
Or where the SNES goes:
"TA-TA-MA-KE SE-PU-KI-KU!"
And all other versions go:
"TATSUMAKI SENPUKYAKU!"
Virtua Fighter uses multi-channel PWM sample mixing with music samples and speech/sfx samples through the 32x.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vector
Virtua Racing does all samples (and all sound generation and music) on the MD end. (save that one sample at the SEGA screen)
OK, and I agree there. That's Super Street Fighter II though, and the SNES (and MD) got new samples for that. (SNES might be a little hacked up, but it's a lot better moderated in any case) I think a few SFX are better sounding on the MD version though. (speech would be really competitive too if not for the garbled playback . . . low quality but heavily filtered, so similar overall muffled but not artifacted sound otherwise) From a technical standpoint, SSFII also came from much higher quality sources for samples, so the MD version could have packed much better quality samples in there in general. (had they used a decent PCM driver and put that added MB of ROM into SFX, drums, and speech samples, it could have been kick ass -the MD's graphics format and CPU resource also should have meant compressing more into the other 4 MB than the SNES did in its 4 MB . . . given the only moderately better detail/animation on the current MD version, I'll assume Capcom didn't optimize that well for compression -and it's a vanilla SNES cart, so no serious decompression going on there either, and given the lack of long load times, not decompressing/buffering at the beginning of a fight either)Quote:
Yes. Exactly what I was talking about the entire time.
Or, of course, the other side of that "better optimization" thing would have been similar graphics/sound quality crammed into less ROM than the SNES version used.
Some MD games use synth drums (of widely varying quality), others use samples (again, of varying quality). SFII SCE has really crappy quality drum samples, while SSFII uses no samples at all and relatively poorly implemented FM percussion. (there might be some PSG percussion too)Quote:
Yes. But for drums I prefer gritty and fatty 12 bit to the more digity sounding 16 bit or flat styled 8 bit. That is me though. For sampling instruments like pianos, I prefer 16 bit. I then midi the 2 machines, because I like 12 bit sounding drums with more clear pianos during sequencing/song making. Sample source is included in convo of course, playback levels, as you stated or equalization or other things. I like the drums on snes games more than genesis games, from what I heard. The snes drums actually sound like kicks snares and open hi hats instead of toms claps and closed hats on md. SNES has nice bass for drums imo. I'm not sure what is all involved with vg stuff. I don't even know how the programmers take the compositions and sound effects and code it so it plays off the cart at certain levels or times and other stuff then chip outputs that digital signal or if there are filters inside MD idk. I'm only going by music machines I had, which was a lot.
Ignoring further (good or bad) examples of synth percussion, here's some of the best sampled percussion examples on the system:
Vapor Trail (basically all the tracks)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XG1c2U4ld2Y
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SupS_1ZnFTA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mxdZz7tGhI
(the recording quality of the latter 2 kind of sucks, so Joe Redifer's upload of the first video is the best example ;))
Atomic Runner (again, pretty much anything, but there's a broader selection there)
Same sound engine as Vapor Trail, actually.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCLYUZ1_HqE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1I-RAeIV68
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBK6EFrz5g8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YL2ZHJdp6tU
Mega Turrican (the whole soundtrack)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AM0IAW7QRtU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdY4EKAcW4Q
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59TfMJfS5XY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atDWfoglyg4
Madden '96
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9AYz6CIq2E (not the streaming sample, the music after that)
Various games with Music from Mat Furniss using the Krysalis sound engine
http://gdri.smspower.org/wiki/index....nd_Engine_List (see here for Krysalis based games -and a general reference)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnHQJxZug0w
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_rygtw1egk (skip to 1:10)
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...25610F325AA050
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ji58ttBzEDc
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...F0B6727BDC9BC6
And then there's Tiido's (TmEE) TMSE sound engine and the TMFPlay music demos he has:
http://www.fileden.com/files/2008/4/...MFPLAY1234.BIN (play in Kega Fusion 3.6x . . . assuming you're using a PC)
Galaxy Force II and Zero Wing are pretty decent, but not super good:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8X6gtAsoL8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gb_TFrpU7GI (actually a mix of synth and sampled percussion there)
For music, FM instruments save a lot of space over using samples for everything, that and not having the constraint of 64 kB of sample RAM and a fixed compressed sample format allows for drum samples on the MD to be considerably better for any games allotting a decent amount of space for music. (AND using a sound engine with decent PCM support)
Actually, you have relatively early gen games (Vapor Trail from 1990) pushing sample quality that's technically better than the best the SNES can output even if you allotted a lot of space for drums. (16 kHz uncompressed 8-bit PCM)
Percussion samples also fit relatively well with the MD's sound hardware (and typical Z80 driven sample playback), since you don't have to worry about pitch shifting and you can make do pretty well with 1 or 2 simultaneous sample channels. (it's also probably the single weakest area for producing synth based instruments, so good synth music backed up with good sampled percussion is pretty much the ideal set-up)
I agree. I can hear voices chopped but it's not enough to bother me because it's clearer. Esp the "fight !" (sounds smooth) or others. Plus when it announces "Japan" and has plane flight sound it sounds good, not "jekplaaannn" and what sounds like a plane dragging it's wings on ground kkkkcccckkkkwwwweeeeeewwwwwwwww.Quote:
Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118
Okay, I'll take your word on it. I believe the guy in video said the sounds, voices, clouds and ground are from the genesis while the 3d polygon and some music parts are from 32 x. But okay.Quote:
Originally Posted by kool kitty89
Okay, more can be done in fm on md because it doesn't have to worry about storing a sample like snes for audio all the time sort of like the md is a synthesizer and it can play samples if it can sample but snes only uses samples yes ? But where I'm lost is, md is FM/synth. So how does it play samples, from the ti chip or sms z80 chip ? How does yamaha chip playback both, and the md sample storage is less than snes yes ?Quote:
For music, FM instruments save a lot of space over using samples for everything, that and not having the constraint of 64 kB of sample RAM and a fixed compressed sample format allows for drum samples on the MD to be considerably better for any games allotting a decent amount of space for music.
Do you mean coded so the sound info goes through yamaha correctly with analog to digital output ? Sorry I'm lost on vg stuff.Quote:
(AND using a sound engine with decent PCM support)
How when md is 8 bit and snes is 12 bit ? I thought yamaha was fm. Can you explain how it can play samples and is the fm/synth 8 bit output and sample pcm 8 bit or 4 bit to save space like what stef does. Or simply explain the md audio process to me from info out of cart to yamaha chip and what it does to the max quality output of md either just for fm or fm and samples.Quote:
Actually, you have relatively early gen games (Vapor Trail from 1990) pushing sample quality that's technically better than the best the SNES can output
Okay. What is the typical snes game audio sample hz and bitrate to the typical md audio fm/sample hz and bitrate ?Quote:
even if you allotted a lot of space for drums. (16 kHz uncompressed 8-bit PCM)
Percussion samples also fit relatively well with the MD's sound hardware (and typical Z80 driven sample playback), since you don't have to worry about pitch shifting and you can make do pretty well with 1 or 2 simultaneous sample channels. (it's also probably the single weakest area for producing synth based instruments, so good synth music backed up with good sampled percussion is pretty much the ideal set-up)
Just so it's known, I'm listening to all this off hardware, not emulators. I've noticed the frequencies in Kega for instance sound off sometimes. Virtua Racing D sounds better on my hardware than my Kega. I can just tell some games have different keys or something, plus the orange bridge is lighter but more dark on hardware, it's not totally perfect but that is nitpicking as Kega is a great overall emulator.
The MD has a "DAC" (Digital to Analog Converter) mode that can be used on the 6th channel. When you do, it ignores all the FM data it has, and, instead, you can write 8 bits of data there directly, which are played back immediately. Now let's say you have some drum sample that you want to play. You store it at 8 bits of quality (basically a series of 8 bit numbers), at a certain sample rate (like 16KHz). That means for each 1 second of audio you have 16000 8bit numbers.
What you now do is, using the Z80 processor, count CPU cycles (or poll timers), so that every 1/16000 of a second, you write the appropriate 8bit number to the DAC. By doing this, you get sample playback on the genesis.
Low quality samples means instead of something good like 16KHz 8bit, you have something like 8KHz 4bit, which sounds very grainy.
Uneven playback means the Z80 code sucks and delays writes to the DAC, so there's kind of a "wavy" effect done on the sound, making it garbly (barely noticeable at 16KHz, very noticeable at 8KHz)
Street Fighter 2 CE has both problems.
Thanks Kamahl.
The Fight sample on the SNES version is speed up and cut off at the end. The country samples sound ok on the Genesis, it most certainly doesn't sound like "jekplannnnn". It clearly says "Japan", there's just some scratchiness to it. The SNES version does speed up the country samples though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vector
Did you even listen to the comparison video that's been linked numerous times?
Vector, I can confirm that the VF samples are played by the 32X. The guy in the video made a mistake, the Genesis will output 32X audio because the sound is mixed through the cartridge port, only video is mixed through the pass through cable. They probably needed PWM because in addition to the voices and hit sounds there are several sampled instruments in the music, it goes way beyond what even Street Fighter 2 SCE attempted with Genesis sound alone.
It sounds FINE, and better then MD. Next.Quote:
Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118
No they don't, it's cringe worthy. Next.Quote:
The country samples sound ok on the Genesis,
It's scratched VERY bad and it sounds bad. The SNES country announcements are better. Next.Quote:
it most certainly doesn't sound like "jekplannnnn". It clearly says "Japan", there's just some scratchiness to it.
It's clearer.Quote:
The SNES version does speed up the country samples though.
Did you even read my posts ? If so, you'll realize yes and I repeated the link. But let me keep repeating myself, just listening to them both 20 years ago or the link Kam provided days ago is enough to tell. Post 70 or many others.Quote:
Did you even listen to the comparison video that's been linked numerous times?
http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthr...y-Thread/page5
"Vector, I can confirm that the VF samples are played by the 32X. The guy in the video made a mistake, the Genesis will output 32X audio because the sound is mixed through the cartridge port, only video is mixed through the pass through cable. They probably needed PWM because in addition to the voices and hit sounds there are several sampled instruments in the music, it goes way beyond what even Street Fighter 2 SCE attempted with Genesis sound alone. "
Thanks sheath.