Help me get my head around this:

TG16 and MSX sound hardware - How are they the same? How are they different? Am I correct to assume they are built on the same basic hardware technology (WSGPSG)? I understand the TG16 sound hardware to a point (a lesser point than I understand NES, SMS, SNES, and Genesis sound), but I don't really know much of anything about the MSX.

However, MSX to me sounds very "TG16ish", and believe I have even heard it said that just as Genesis and most Arcade games from the mid 80's to the mid 90's, though different, are built on the same basic technology as each other (FM), and NES and SMS, though different are also built on the same basic technology as each other (PSG), so it is that the TG16, and MSX, though clearly not identical to each other are at least still built upon the same general underlying audio producing technologies as each other (WSGPSG).

Am I correct that far on MSX? If not, please start me from scratch on MSX hardware. If, on the other hand, I at least have that much right, then please explain how it is the same as TG16, and how it is different. In your opinion, which has the superior, more capable audio hardware of the two over all, and if it's not a matter of cut and dry superiority (like it almost never is), then explain where the one excels, and where the other excels, their greatest strengths, their greatest weaknesses, etc.

Thanks guys!

-J

The MSX does not have WSG. Its primary sound chip is a General Instrument AY-3-8910 or can also be a Yamaha YM2149, both PSG chips with 3 audio channels. However, there were several other audio chips that could be added on to the MSX's stock PSG chip:

-YM2413 (OPLL FM Synthesis, 9 channels)
-Konami SCC and SCC+ (wavetable sound chip, 5 channels)
-Y8950 (modified YM3526 with additional PCM capabilities, so OPL and PCM combined)

I've also seen people get YM3812s, YMF262s and YMF271s working on the MSX, so there's quite a bit of variety of audio types on the MSX. However, you cannot get a similar sound to a TurboGrafx 16 out of an MSX without extra audio hardware. Unless I missed something, in which case, I would like people to correct this.

The MSX and TG-16 PSG/WSG sound might somehow be related as you described, the same way that Genesis sound and misc hardware is also related to hardware found in various arcade games. But you have to realize that still means radically different. Only the Genesis sounds like a Genesis, FM is a broad format and FM chips made by the same company still vary quite a bit. Just as the fact that the SMS and NES having the same type of sound doesn't make them the same. The MSX FM sound does use the same basic FM chip as the Sega Mark III FM, so the FM portions of that sound do sound the same.

Now, no matter how related or not they are, they might still sound the same or similar to you, but if that's the case you probably just haven't heard much TG-16/PCE sound. The MSX PSG sounds very similar to SMS PSG. Maybe you actually heard MSX FM and it reminded you of TG-16?

Okay, no that is very helpful! Now that you say that, all the msx games I've played that sounded like TG16 games have been konami (metal gear, contra etc). So, yeah, this totally answers my question. Thanks! :-)

Sounds like I was right, and wrong. I was right in that what I was hearing was built on the same core technology as TG16...but wrong in that I then deduced that that technology was simply the technology that was built into the system. It sounds like it was not technology that was built into the system, but rather, technology that was built into the game a la the VRC6 in Akumajou Densetsu (JP Castlevania III) This still means that now I have to go and retract some comments I've made elsewhere. :-/

A couple followup questions:

1) The PSG system that actually is in the MSX: This is the same General Instruments technology the Neo Geo AES uses for its SSG/PSG channels, right? That chip's performance is pretty comparable to the TI SN76489 PSG that's in the Mastersystem, et al, right?

2) These WSG chips that were in the Konami MSX games...how do they compare with the TG16 hardware (strengths/weaknesses/overall capabilities, etc)?

Thanks! :-)

Oh, and to clarify, I never thought that genesis and FM based arcade games sounded the same...nor NES and SMS....nor TG16 and the Konami MSX, simply that they sounded like there was the kind of strong family resemblances you'd get from being underpinned by the same core audio production technologies.

Yeah, I wasn't saying anything more than that....but, I wasn't saying anything less than that either.

On the one hand, I don't think I'd ever confuse an NES track with an SMS track, for instance, but on the other hand, the sound of the one is strongly reminiscent of the other. Well, same with the Genesis and most of those arcade games, and same with the TG16 and the Konami MSX games I've heard that brought all this up.

Like the looks, and mannerisms and vocalisms of two brothers......not the same.....but familial...sometimes strongly familial...sometimes faintly familial....but familial. That's what I'm picking up on with these various platform pairings. :-)

But again, I think the in-hardware vs in-cart distinction really pretty much clears it all up for me.

The PSG on the MSX is slightly better than the one on the Master System. Not a big difference though.

And yeah, the SCC chip used in a bunch of Konamy MSX games (not all) uses the same method of sound generation that the PCE uses. Some arcade boards used it too. The SCC has 1 less channel, 2 fewer instruments (only 4 different instruments at the same time) and it can't do PCM, but the quality of the instruments is higher (8bit WSG vs 5bit WSG, listen to salamander).

Still, no game uses the PCE soundchip as well as Metal Gear 2 used the SCC. The PSG is only used for drums on Metal Gear, so it would be the equivalent of the 6th channel on the PCE.

Okay, thanks Kamahl! That's very useful! So, one less total channel, two less simultaneous voice usable channels, but higher bit rate WSG. Otherwise, they're essentially the same. Thanks!

Is it fair to say that overall, you prefer the SCC over the PCE? Or am I over-reading you there?

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Originally Posted by Jay See Double You

Is it fair to say that overall, you prefer the SCC over the PCE? Or am I over-reading you there?

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Yes and no, the PCE hardware was incredibly underused. The most advanced thing done on it is the bass instrument on batman.

Yeah, those Batman tracks are great! I have a facebook page called Nerd Noise Radio (hoping to start a podcast soon), that I run in conjunction with Rob and Landon of the Retro Junkies, and a couple other friends. We actually just had a bit of a focus on PCE Batman, including a face off between TG16 Batman stage 2 vs NES Batman stage 1. You oughta check it out!

Hey Kamahl, I sent you a private message, but it's not showing in my outbox. please PM me and let me know whether you got that or not.

What's interesting is the tg16 and the nes use the same cpu, at drastically different speeds.

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Originally Posted by Drakon

What's interesting is the tg16 and the nes use the same cpu, at drastically different speeds.

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Almost, the PCE cpu also has block move instructions.