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A great thread for those that missed it. It was orignally a versus thread yet X-Perts stole the show. Here is also a great video I found on the subject.
http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthr...KC-Series(SNES)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pNBG5X20dM
I revisited this game once. Figured I'd sit down and play it and maybe find some redeeming qualities that people miss.... Lost 2 hours of my life and then the fucking thing froze to add even more insult to the injury.
X-Perts is a hemorrhoid on the ass-end of life. It's a turd floating in a punch bowl filled with urine. It's a game that can take a frown, and turn it into a teeth-grinding fit of rage that's fueled by the knowledge that money has been lost, and that the one who sold it to you is making a YouTube video to let the world watch them laughing at your ass.
X-Perts can make even the worst situation worse, by simply being in your presence.
X-Pricks
X-Turds
X-Shit
That sounds about right.
Heh, one of the programmers on this game is now a co-worker of mine. Apart from convincing Sega to have Shadow kick "the Sega logo in the S", he's not particularly proud of it though.
Watching the gameplay clip makes me sad, because it was obvious they had the skills to make a great game,
I mean.. the Genesis lack of colors hardly shows here, they really managed to make the rendered sprites look nice, (though the big guy walks like a monkey)
the backgrounds look nice, the "infiltration spy thingy" gameplay seems like a good idea,
yet.. there's no gameplay.
This pretty much sums up what I think about it. It's a great tech demo that shows how nice cgi can look on Genesis and how smoothly it can animate it.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoVamp
This is where the thread should of ended. Crap game not worthy of anyone's time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cornholio857
http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthr...492#post570492Quote:
Originally Posted by Vector
never heard of the game
after seeing the video im glad i never heard off it
Agree. If that sort of color optimization was used for Blackthorne, it probably could have had a decent looking vanilla MD version too. (Toy Story did a pretty decent job with color too . . . and Earthworm Jim 1 and 2, though the actual CG stuff is more limited in those)Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoVamp
Doom Troopers looked worse colorwise on the MD, but more so that it didn't really look CGI-ish so much (the conversion used made it look more like normal pixel art), so I'm not sure how good or bad that is. Another mediocre game of that style though . . . at least a good deal better than X-Perts. :p
So in this game I walk all the way to the left and that's it. Game over. I don't die or anything, I just can't make any progress. I can't get through the door. There is no clue as to what I'm supposed to do. I walk all the way back to the right. Nothing. I use all of the computers. Nothing. I would feature this on a bad game episode if I could get past this.
What else did he have to say about the game's development. Do tell......or I'll send you a copy of "Super Thunder Blade"....please don't make me do that. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Mask of Destiny
I remember reading about this in EGM and Gamepro. Man that game looked great ant it was 32 MEGAPOWER and it turned out like a real turd. Looks nice tho.
that would be all the megapower pumped in the graphicsQuote:
Originally Posted by Da_Shocker
there isnt enough left over for the gameplay
He mentioned that there was supposed to be a 4th character, but Sega didn't want to pay for a larger mask ROM/mapper so it got cut. He also mentioned that the characters were rendered on an SGI Onyx (though he was a bit fuzzy on that, so that may not be exactly the right model of workstation).Quote:
Originally Posted by Aarzak
If there's anything in particular you want to know, I can ask.
I actually have a copy of Super Thunder Blade. Not a physical copy though. Bought a bunch of the Sega Classics collections off of Amazon as semi-legal a source of ROMs and it was in one of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aarzak
Can he hack the game with stuff I said in previous post ? Would be cool if Shadow had the gun, more enemies, eternal champions music, you know a good hack. Graphically it looks great (ignoring xpret title screen) the green vector graphics on monitors, the color use, you know great graphics but maybe someone can take the 1% of rest of game not focused on graphics and add music, better controls and more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mask of Destiny
I'm not going to ask him that, sorry. Trying to understand code you wrote 17 years ago is hard enough when you have the source code, but I'm pretty sure he's not in possession of that. Hacking the game without access to the source is certainly doable (just look at the Sonic hacking community), but he's not necessarily better equipped to do that than any other programmer that knows a bit about the Genesis.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vector
Was just a thought. I wonder how tec toy made a sf engine and stuff, did somebody at capcom help tec toy with sf2 on sms ? Thats what xperts plays like. Wonky punches, people die then zap away. No zapping away but more enemies would be better. Better controls, Shadow with Eternal Champions moves would be crazy. A good hack by somebody could turn this turd into gold.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mask of Destiny
What if Vector offers him $500? ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Mask of Destiny
You activate the elevator by walking up to the panel next to it and hitting "Y" (it's a 6-button game). However, the first objective is for Zach to open the air locks (accessing the first computer you come across on-screen -pressing Y next to it).Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Redifer
Once you've activated/freed all the characters, you can direct them to go places (including using the elevator) through the menu/map screen, though they suck at combat, so it's important to switch to them for that (especially if they're already weakened). Health regenerates slowly, but automatically while not in combat.
The menu screen shows current objectives on the map.
It's kind of a complex realtime action/strategy sort of game. If you can understand that element of the game, the clunky combat becomes the main problem. (albeit I sound some of the objectives somewhat confusing and I got stuck for a while)
Different characters have different sills as well (faster at combat, repairs, hacking, etc) . . . it's kind of like Zero Tolerance in that respect, except you manage 3 characters in realtime rather than swapping between them. (additionally, none of the 3 characters can be in the same zone at the same time)
It could have been a lot more polished . . . though I'd still imagine it not appealing to many people due to its specific set of gameplay elements. (even if done well, it's not going to be one of those broadly appealing games . . . more of a niche thing)
This playthrough gives some perspective on the game overall, and the description for the video overviews the character attributes as well:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvDNsmXTatc
The comments also address the issue of interrogating the terrorists for information. You've got to use certain "torture" combo attacks, but it's so clumsy and inconsistent (and often the dialog won't even be what you need) that it's much better to just kill them and manually hack the computers and such.
I also take back what I said about color optimization . . . it only looks decent in certain poses and animations. In most stills, the posterization is really obvious. Sonic 3D Blast and Toy Story do a better job.
Put in that perspective, X-Perts doesn't seem like a terrible game. it's just that the animation looks terrible! :p I always assumed it was poor beat em up. But if it's core gameplay has more to do with strategy game than action, it's quite understandable why the fighting mechanics are somewhat lacking. Based on your summarization of the game, the game sounds similar to "The Lost Vikings" in which you are required to use the various characters to pass through the levels. The difference here is that each of the characters are located on different floors of ths station. It sounds like one gigantic puzzle! :p
The concept behind X-Perts was a pretty intriguing one, and if they had pulled it off it could have been a gem in the late life of the Genesis. It's a shame that it sucked. The last producer of this game spoke about it on his homepage (I think it was the last producer, not Tony Van, and I can't find their homepage anymore) and it sounds as if it had a troubled development: two previous producers, the graphics were too much for the Genesis, the cart size wasn't really big enough but couldn't be increased, the designers had little experience with fighting games yet didn't properly research them, the battery save was removed, and he wanted to cancel the game but Sega wouldn't let him due to the investment already made. Tony Van's interview here says pretty much the same thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by SEGA.GENESIS1989
Bribe Alert ! :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by Black_Tiger
Ha. That goes to anybody who can add all the stuff I suggested. (But guy probably still knows code so...nothing will happen if nobody asks).
1) Shadow X Pert but with Shadow Eternal Champion moves (+ mode button for Shadow X Pert gun, only Vam Dam guy has gun I think)
2) Eternal Champion Bio music and other EC music (X Perts is a spin off after all) playing at least in X Pert levels instead of humming fart noises
3) Better fight sequences like more enemies and more of a SOR feel or FF and sound when fighting, instead of cheesy cheap sound fx wonky punches and kicks
4) Keep the strategy of course.
5) Skip the enemy death zapping away part (or at least have it 1 out of 5 times like just end guy on level nobody wants to see that after every enemy death)
6) Redo title screen.
7) No need for battery, hack rom will be on my EverDrive.
Not asking too much.
All that would make the game avg or at least more entertaining. Turning turds into gold nuggets.
From what I've read on old usenet posts (I'm about to make a thread on that :D), SoA was touting this game and "Vectorman" as "DKC Killers" back in E3 1995....naturally. :)
I too think that, if executed right, X-Perts could've been a much-needed solid game released on what was a very dry year for Genesis games (1996).
I love my Mega Drive, but SOA was way out of touch with what was considered impressive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aarzak
Personally I think a game like Ristar done in the DKC way would have been more impressive, more colors and nicer to look at,
that's the problem I have with Vectorman and X-Perts, there's detail but its so.. boring.
That's what I liked so much about DKC, it was a colorful fun to play bigass platformer, the Genesis could have done it too,
but instead we got pew pew pew robots in a drab surrounding.
To previous post, yes Sega Visions Mag hyped Vectorman and X Perts as answers to DKC. I remember reading all about X Perts then, but go on wiki on you'll see many supposed DKC answers (who in a ad suggested keeping SNES because it does 32 bit looking games like DKC ha they had to do it I guess it was end of 6 bit era basically). Some say Toy Story on Genesis was a shot too.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoVamp
" X Perts
Development
This game was made as an answer from Sega to Nintendo's Donkey Kong Country.As such the graphics were pre-rendered in 3D then converted into sprite form which is similar to the method used in that game."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-Perts
Vectorman
Vectorman uses pre-rendered 3D models in its level and character designs. This gives the game a smooth, computer-generated feel. The original name of the villain, Warhead, was Raster (as in raster graphics, the opposite of vector graphics). Vectorman was considered the answer to Nintendo's Donkey Kong Country at the time, as they both used graphical tricks to show graphics beyond what the console was thought capable of.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vectorman
Toy Story
The Sega Genesis version in particular was met with positive reception due to the game's 3D-rendered visuals which were a rarity for the platform.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toy_Story_(video_game) "
Maybe there were others, but DKC was on Segas mind for sure.
To Neo, okay your opinion. But I like Vectorman (original character at time) better than DKC, it had a darker more serious feeling and I like the changing levels and such. I'd rather play Vectorman than slow ass DKC. Wow more colors. Meh. DKC looked great, but like Mario was a slower paced kind of game. I find DK kind of boring (like Toy Story). Did DKC and sequels have a chip ? I found Vectorman smoother. Genesis seemed to have smoother animations more fluid type of feel from Vectorman to sports games.
Anyway like I said if someone does the 7 or 8 updates in a X Pert hack the game would be way better. Did Genesis limited color make it so some games were darker more serious, sure. But that doesn't mean Vectorman wasn't the answer to DKC, a colorful but slow 3d rendered game on SNES.
IIRC from magazines at the time, it was pulled from being displayed at E3 at the last minute. That really should have been seen as a sign that Sega knew that X-Perts sucked.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aarzak
My comments are just based on some brief looks on the youtube playthrough and playing the game myself for about 20 minutes. I didn't get nearly far enough to even make a proper summary of the first mission, but I got an idea of the gameplay style at least. (definitely not a beat 'em up, which it looked like for me too initially)Quote:
Originally Posted by SEGA.GENESIS1989
After actually playing the game, I'll definitely agree the aesthetics are lacking . . . the color scheme, several of the model designs (Shadow is OK -then again, ripped from Eternal Champions- and some of the enemy designs are decent at least), and the animation (while smooth) is really hit and miss in quality. Then there's the grating SFX (both synth and PCM) and general lack of music.
If you can get over that, and you actually like the mission based action-RTS/tactics/puzzle sort of gameplay, you could probably have some fun with it. Or a more modest set of improvements across the board. (a few of the combat mechanics are really annoying, especially the guns not letting you move while equipped -and the lack of a jump -it does have isometric/2.5D style movement though, so you can maneuver around enemies/obstacles)
Honestly, I could see getting into it if not for the off-putting aesthetics. (better sound/visual design on top of tighter gameplay would have been best, obviously)
More like a turd nugget. No amount of hacking could salvage this trainwreck; it would take a clean wipe to rescue it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vector
I do like how the graphical rendering style alone makes something a viable direct competitor. Having games in entirely different genres/niches within the market . . . not to mention totally different aesthetic aspects (sound/music/art).Quote:
Originally Posted by Vector
There never really was a game (or series) on the MD that directly competed with DKC in all its major attributes IMO. A sonic spinoff or sequel done (tactfully) in CG like that might have fit the bill, and one using a more mainstream established game design model than 3D Blast did (as well as being released at least a year earlier) . . . perhaps something that would have reworked well into an enhanced 2.5D derivative on the Saturn as well. (and, of course, I mean heavier and more advanced CG usage than Sonic 3 and S&K saw already)
That or a new IP building on a derivative of a popular Sega format, or another one of their established IPs.
And as neat as I think Sonic 3D Blast is, I can also clearly see why it wasn't super popular with many and not nearly as universally liked as the mainstream 2D Sonic titles.
X-Perts, even if more polished in general (aesthetically and gameplay wise), was nowhere near DKC in terms of mainstream appeal at the very least, while even something like Vector Man was a bit weak in comparison in general. The DKC series pushed both relatively compelling game design (not stellar, perhaps, but at least good) on top of the visual/sound design. There were better 2D platformers on both the MD and Genesis in terms of overall gameplay quality IMO (though that varies by personal preference, of course), but I really don't think that any of the Sega published "competitors" to DKC were in the same class gameplay/quality/appeal wise. (and even in their sub-genres, DKC competed more directly with other good quality run and jump platformers than Vectorman did with run and gun platformers)
Now, Toy Story was definitely a game with some more mainstream appeal, but it wasn't a Sega developed/commissioned/collaborated title in general, and the SNES version was hardly inferior overall. (I'd say the average person would probably prefer the SNES game, though they're pretty close overall) I still wouldn't rank it next to the DKC games though. (let alone something like Sonic 3&K or Yoshi's Island)
DKC had no chip, but was a 32Mbit game, while DKC 2 and 3 both used the SA-1. (which, aside from added processing resource, meant more animation could be compressed in ROM thanks to the graphics decompression engine onboard the SA-1)Quote:
To Neo, okay your opinion. But I like Vectorman (original character at time) better than DKC, it had a darker more serious feeling and I like the changing levels and such. I'd rather play Vectorman than slow ass DKC. Wow more colors. Meh. DKC looked great, but like Mario was a slower paced kind of game. I find DK kind of boring (like Toy Story). Did DKC and sequels have a chip ? I found Vectorman smoother. Genesis seemed to have smoother animations more fluid type of feel from Vectorman to sports games.
Limited color didn't really have much to do with that, just art design. The color limit just made specific styles necessary to make things look better . . . or just stuff from not stylizing things. (be it excessive dithering or heavy postetization, there's plenty of examples of not meeting a happy medium between those 2 things -along with careful color usage to avoid either problem)Quote:
Anyway like I said if someone does the 7 or 8 updates in a X Pert hack the game would be way better. Did Genesis limited color make it so some games were darker more serious, sure. But that doesn't mean Vectorman wasn't the answer to DKC, a colorful but slow 3d rendered game on SNES.
The color limitation is also why you see relatively stylized "bright" high-contrast colorful games too, including typical Sonic color usage. (and that goes both for the subpalette limit and the 9-bit RGB constraint -having just those 512 colors to pull from limits doing smooth gradients and such with many colors without dithering, on top of additional limits from working with 4 15 color palettes)
Quote:
Originally Posted by kool kitty89
Got a source for that information? I never heard of that, and I've been playing DKC2/3 on backup devices since they were released.
I can hear giggles and see quotes and bolded for this post ha, but why did games with circles, spheres or balls have more fluid 3d like animation on MD ? The answer for Vectorman is here http://www.racketboy.com/retro/sega/...graphics-sound but what about Ballz 3D like where you kill opponent and balls separate and bounce next gen like and stuff ? Why do circles creating 3D effect help 16 bit systems ? It's like that was the polygons (32 bit mainly) of 16 bit era.
About colors, there are plenty of colorful MD games like Sonics, P Cotton, Dynamite Headdy, Comix Zone, Beyond Oasis, Ristar and others that is something I don't much care about. I'm surprised many think Donkey Kong Country is better than Vectorman here.
Sorry forgot another.
"Ranger-X
Release Date: 1993
Key Techincal Features:
Maximized color capabilities
Expert use of parallax scrolling
Psuedo 3D effects
Again with the huge bosses
What Makes The Game Special: This is one of the earliest Sega Genesis games on this list, so it’s graphical effects are especially worthy of praise. The most notable accomplishment is the developer’s use of the Genesis’s limit of 64 colors. There is a rumor that Gau was able to exceed the Genny’s color limit, but I haven’t seen confirmation other than the results on the screen."
Ha ha what game on md didn't have programmers using magical color tricks or top secret codes to "get more than 64 colors" or other rumors.
Great Video imo about md colors.
Neo, check out all the colors Vectorman has on MD.
Edit. He did a Ranger X count too.
A sphere looks more or less the same from any direction (ignoring lighting anyway) so rendering them in "3D" simply becomes a matter of position and size. The former is rather easy on the Genesis as you have lots of sprites to work with and so each sphere can be a sprite. Then you just have to deal with scaling the spheres. Since the Genesis doesn't have any scaling hardware, the simplest approach is just to store multiple copies of the sprite at different sizes. If you have lots of different sprites at lots of different sizes this can get impractical, but one sphere looks pretty much like any other (apart from color). As a result, the VRAM requirements of storing the spheres is quite manageable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vector
Thanks Mask of Destiny.
You misunderstood what I meant/I wrote it incorrectly, Whatever pick one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vector
What I meant to say was Vectorman has a horrible collection of colors, everything is purplish/lightblueish, its.. horrible to look at.
imo the game is way overrated, its just a pew pew pew robot shooter with bad colors, but it has some nifty programming effects
so people heralded it as the best genesis game ever.
http://www.blogcdn.com/www.joystiq.c...an_vcmm_lg.jpg
Without trying to sound like a hater, the color use.. makes me wanna puke, and actually keeps me from playing it.
Okay cool. Yeah VectorMans colors, some you mentioned, all had a metallic tone to them imo. Maybe I'm not explaining that right but maybe you agree. I still enjoy the game better than DKC though.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoVamp
I could have sworn I'd read that before on wikipedia's enhancement chip game list, but it's not there now, and it certainly looks to be a plain ROM cart by the PCB screenshots. (both 2 and 3) Just 1 or 2 ROM chips plus a couple logic chips and the SRAM and battery.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoVamp
2 issues: technical on-screen color count, and overall art aesthetics (including color/shading usage). you can have an ugly game with lots of color that doesn't look "colorful" in general, but still technically have more colors/shades on-screen (for that matter a 256 shade black and white display has more "colors" than any MD game uses :p ). So in this context, you have to remember it's colors and SHADES that are important . . . that 256 shade example could end up really showing off some awesome looking smooth shaded art design. (think 24/32-bit color quality shading)Quote:
Originally Posted by Vector
This is the main area SNES games show off: better shading. (for similarly optimized games with good/decent art design and color usage) Albeit, the MD's higher resolution opens things up a little bit for somewhat finer dithering, but that's not nearly enough to make things up there compared to the SNES's default color capabilities. (or the PC Engine's color for that matter -PC engine is a great example of showing the specific limits behind 9-bit RGB without the additional bottleneck of having so few palettes as on the MD -32 palettes of 15 colors vs 4 of 15 colors, both from 512 colors of 9-bit RGB)
Vector Man 2 looks a bit nicer IMO, and both are OK looking at least -the added "color" is only from effects though, not really adding to better art design or color usage at all -Novotrade actually did use shadow/hilight to some extent for added art shading detail though, at least in Lost World.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoVamp
Regardless of aesthetics, there's still the issue of Vector man being a relatively average quality run and gun platformer at best, while the DKC games (or at least one or 2 of them) were above average quality overall (sound/music and art aesthetics as well as game design) though perhaps not top tier overall.
There's something about the Vectorman games in general that makes them feel lower budget, less polished, and less professional . . . and not in the charming small studio sort of way either.
X-perts is hand down the worst game I have ever played. A complete and total piece of shit. There is nothing redeeming about this game, and nothing fun about it.
I am right there with you NeoVamp. Vectorman is a glorified tech demo with awful gameplay. It's way too slow for a run-n-gun, Vectorman moves like a tank on some levels. The graphics keep you from being able to see anything because of all of the bizarre shading, it takes forever to kill enemies, and overall it's just not that fun to play when I can play Contra, Gunstar Heroes, or Metal Slug, games that are superior in all aspects. IMHO one of the most overrated Genesis gamesQuote:
Originally Posted by NeoVamp