Controversial gaming opinions you have

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Originally Posted by sheath

As for US only, I think an argument can be made for the Saturn's US library in certain genres even past 1998. Not any sort of one-sided advantage, but the argument can be made for why one would prefer the US Saturn library over the US PS1 library on a game by game preference and genre preference basis.

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When I say a system is greater than the other it's a personal opinion about the overall good/great games in each library.
Saturn probably has a few genres over the PS1 even in my book, as some people can ignore the tons of JP-only PS1 racers and say that Daytona USA is better than the entire PS1 racing library (not a very minded statement IMO, but...).
I'm still waiting for the day when any of the Saturn defenders in this forum will accept the challenge to do a genre-per-genre worldwide comparison of both libraries with me... The same people who say the Saturn has many more quality games are the ones who run from this comparison like the plague. And it's a bummer 'cause, even if I was proven stupidly wrong in the end, it could be awesome to identify many "hidden" good games in both sides (since I own both systems, it would be always fine with me).

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Originally Posted by sheath

Huh, I haven't noticed the sound effects though I think we've talked about this game before. Does the Saturn game not support the racing wheel, or are you referring to analog gas and brake as well.

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Yes, I'm referring to analog gas and brake.
Also, about the sfx, I think they sound "tiny" on the Saturn (something that is not so uncommon in these comparisons).

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Originally Posted by sheath

* Sales and positive review scores say absolutely nothing about the quality of a product.

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I wouldn't be so radical... It always say something...

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Originally Posted by sheath

* Sega's decisions are only regarded as mistakes because they didn't dominate any hardware generation.

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Maybe not all but many of them were, in fact, huge mistakes. Like the 32X :p.

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Originally Posted by sheath

A mouse and keyboard are not legitimate gaming devices no matter how good some gamers are with them.

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They are the best ones when you want to smoke and/or drink while playing... So they are badass in my book and I don't mind if they are legitimate or not.

Late era PS2 games look really nice (Shadow of the Colossus, God of War, Metal Gear Solid 3, etc...). Shame we never got to see what the Dreamcast could do given a few more years.

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Originally Posted by Barone

When I say a system is greater than the other it's a personal opinion about the overall good/great games in each library.
Saturn probably has a few genres over the PS1 even in my book, as some people can ignore the tons of JP-only PS1 racers and say that Daytona USA is better than the entire PS1 racing library (not a very minded statement IMO, but...).
I'm still waiting for the day when any of the Saturn defenders in this forum will accept the challenge to do a genre-per-genre worldwide comparison of both libraries with me... The same people who say the Saturn has many more quality games are the ones who run from this comparison like the plague. And it's a bummer 'cause, even if I was proven stupidly wrong in the end, it could be awesome to identify many "hidden" good games in both sides (since I own both systems, it would be always fine with me).

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As with anything in these discussion subjectivity dominates any discussion past numbers. The PS1 has more games in all genres, I'm pretty confident in that. Beyond that most of us can't even agree on what genres are, much less what games represent the "best of" each genre. Obviously Racing is a genre, but the scale from "Arcadey" to "Sim" is entirely subjective. "Good controls" typically mean the player didn't struggle with them, it doesn't even matter whether they are a good driver in real life.

Whether I would rather play Daytona USA/CE, Sega Rally and Sega Touring Car Championship than any other Racer ever made is just a matter of personal preference. I can categorically state what these games have that other games do not, or at least what they have in spades that other games have less of. That doesn't make them quantitatively better than other Racers, it just means they have distinct characteristics.

I wouldn't argue the US Saturn versus the US PS1 library based solely on Arcade Racers though, I would include Sega's entire offering and then Capcom's and then Game Art's. Even still, the PS1 has more games that are subjectively "like" these games, and review scores can be polled to prove they are of equal or better quality. I have told you before that the biggest deal for me has always been the absolute garbage stock Sony controllers, you have helped me out considerably with peripherals for each of my favorite genres.

Now I just need to learn the controls and their seemingly random button assignments on all of these unfamiliar controllers. ;)

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Originally Posted by Barone

Yes, I'm referring to analog gas and brake.
Also, about the sfx, I think they sound "tiny" on the Saturn (something that is not so uncommon in these comparisons).

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Yup, that hardware supported ADPCM issue will probably creep up more often than not. I didn't compress the audio in this video though and I have a hard time pegging any significant deficiency in the Audio of any version.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xft12va2iLo

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Originally Posted by Barone

I wouldn't be so radical... It always say something...

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Currently I'd put what sales says about a product something like this:
70% Brand Loyalty
15% Effective Marketing
10% Identification w/ Consumers' felt needs
4% Product Placement at Retail
1% Measurable Product Quality

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Originally Posted by Barone

Maybe not all but many of them were, in fact, huge mistakes. Like the 32X :p.

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You've seen my endless debate on this topic, I think the marketing and case design of the 32X was a mistake and that canceling less than two years after its launch was a mistake. I don't think the hardware itself or its entirely first gen library is "bad" in any way. An argument can be made for most of the third party offerings being mediocre, but that is standard operation especially for launch games I think. ;)

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Originally Posted by Barone

They are the best ones when you want to smoke and/or drink while playing... So they are badass in my book and I don't mind if they are legitimate or not.

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I don't see it, I have to keep my hand on the mouse and keys pretty much no matter what I'm doing in game. I guess a Point and Click Adventure doesn't need that much attention, but an FPS certainly does.

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Originally Posted by sheath

As with anything in these discussion subjectivity dominates any discussion past numbers. The PS1 has more games in all genres, I'm pretty confident in that. Beyond that most of us can't even agree on what genres are, much less what games represent the "best of" each genre. Obviously Racing is a genre, but the scale from "Arcadey" to "Sim" is entirely subjective. "Good controls" typically mean the player didn't struggle with them, it doesn't even matter whether they are a good driver in real life.

Whether I would rather play Daytona USA/CE, Sega Rally and Sega Touring Car Championship than any other Racer ever made is just a matter of personal preference. I can categorically state what these games have that other games do not, or at least what they have in spades that other games have less of. That doesn't make them quantitatively better than other Racers, it just means they have distinct characteristics.

I wouldn't argue the US Saturn versus the US PS1 library based solely on Arcade Racers though, I would include Sega's entire offering and then Capcom's and then Game Art's. Even still, the PS1 has more games that are subjectively "like" these games, and review scores can be polled to prove they are of equal or better quality. I have told you before that the biggest deal for me has always been the absolute garbage stock Sony controllers, you have helped me out considerably with peripherals for each of my favorite genres.

Now I just need to learn the controls and their seemingly random button assignments on all of these unfamiliar controllers. ;)

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Sure. It wasn't target at you specifically just a general comment...
You also don't claim undisputed superiority of this or that console as some people do. My point was just: if it was so easy to see the Saturn superiority as some people suggest, they shouldn't be afraid about a more in-depth game library comparison. But I think I know why they avoid it...

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Originally Posted by sheath

Yup, that hardware supported ADPCM issue will probably creep up more often than not. I didn't compress the audio in this video though and I have a hard time pegging any significant deficiency in the Audio of any version.
[video]

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The part you posted barely has any "footage" of the PS1 sound, it's mostly the Saturn version. And, like I complain about most of the comparison video makers, there's no indication when it's outputting Saturn sound and when it's outputting PS1 sound (however, I know that you covered it in your last videos, thanks for that 'cause no one seem to understand that the audio info should be as important and the visual one). But, in the brief segment when I can hear the PS1 sound, it's wider and stronger IMO. You can't hear the other cars sfx properly on the Saturn.

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Originally Posted by sheath

Currently I'd put what sales says about a product something like this:
70% Brand Loyalty
15% Effective Marketing
10% Identification w/ Consumers' felt needs
4% Product Placement at Retail
1% Measurable Product Quality

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Again, you're being radical. Wii U is bombing hard, despite being from the magical awesome best ever company called Nintendo.

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Originally Posted by sheath

You've seen my endless debate on this topic, I think the marketing and case design of the 32X was a mistake and that canceling less than two years after its launch was a mistake. I don't think the hardware itself or its entirely first gen library is "bad" in any way. An argument can be made for most of the third party offerings being mediocre, but that is standard operation especially for launch games I think. ;)

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The 32X in its own existence isn't the problem, the hardware was actually good I think. The decision to invest time and money on it and its marketing campaign, especially considering the Sega's financial situation, wasn't wise though. It was an unnecessary risk from a business point of view and, unlike you said many times, the boost in sales was really just a holiday season short breath, like the sales numbers posted in the last discussion pointed. So it served no good purpose to the company.

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Originally Posted by sheath

I don't see it, I have to keep my hand on the mouse and keys pretty much no matter what I'm doing in game. I guess a Point and Click Adventure doesn't need that much attention, but an FPS certainly does.

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No, no... You can smoke while playing very easily and drink when you die or while loading the next level. My time doing that has passed though...

Mouse and Keyboard (separately too), Touchscreens, Gamepads, Joysticks, Paddles, etc... Are all valid gaming controls. They just work better for different kinds of games.
Cannon Fodder for example is fully playable with just a mouse and absolutely painful to play with a Pad or Joystick, so I really don't share sheath's opinion on this.

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Originally Posted by Barone

When I say a system is greater than the other it's a personal opinion about the overall good/great games in each library.
Saturn probably has a few genres over the PS1 even in my book, as some people can ignore the tons of JP-only PS1 racers and say that Daytona USA is better than the entire PS1 racing library (not a very minded statement IMO, but...).
I'm still waiting for the day when any of the Saturn defenders in this forum will accept the challenge to do a genre-per-genre worldwide comparison of both libraries with me... The same people who say the Saturn has many more quality games are the ones who run from this comparison like the plague. And it's a bummer 'cause, even if I was proven stupidly wrong in the end, it could be awesome to identify many "hidden" good games in both sides (since I own both systems, it would be always fine with me).

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No one is stopping you from doing the comparison. No one is debating that the PS1 has more games in most genres, because it's a fact that it does have more games. The point many of us Saturn defenders try to make which get's ignored is that what the Saturn offers in those genres in many cases can stand toe to toe with what the PS1 has. And I don't think anyone actually said the Saturn had more quality games than the PS1. That would be stupid as the PS1 has a substantially larger library.

I think what got said that you misunderstood was the percentage. The Saturn's library is smaller at roughly 700 games where as the PS1 has about 2,400 games. So while the PS1 has more games and more quality games, it also has a lot more shovelware and crap games than the Saturn too. So lets say there are about 200-250 games worth owning for the Saturn, and the PS1 has about 500 games worth owning. When we look at the percentage in relation to their libraries the Saturn comes out with 35% of it's library worth owning where as the PS1 comes out with about 20% worth owning. Now obviously these are ballpark guesses but you can still get the general idea.

But since racing games seems to be your main focus here is a list of every Racing game for the Saturn for every region. It even includes average user ratings:
http://www.satakore.com/saturndb.php...ting=1&order=1

But I'm all for the comparison if you want to do it.

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

No one is stopping you from doing the comparison. No one is debating that the PS1 has more games in most genres, because it's a fact that it does have more games. The point many of us Saturn defenders try to make which get's ignored is that what the Saturn offers in those genres in many cases can stand toe to toe with what the PS1 has. And I don't think anyone actually said the Saturn had more quality games than the PS1. That would be stupid as the PS1 has a substantially larger library.

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Man, you really didn't read my previosu posts and you're getting the wrong boat.
I *NEVER* talked about quantity as the measure to anything. NEVER.

About "no one is stopping you" part, well, I'd prefer to have some people with better knowledge than mine helping me with the Saturn side, just that. The PS1 side is way easier for me to do. That's why I don't want to do it all by myself, it would be painful and it would reveal no new games to me since it would be me talking to myself, not very cool, eh?
It's not about "I'm right and you're wrong", but people seem to struggle to understand it.

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

I think what got said that you misunderstood was the percentage.

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Again, I never said "percentage". I don't care about percentage, I care about good/great games. It's a very simple concept.

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

So lets say there are about 200-250 games worth owning for the Saturn, and the PS1 has about 500 games worth owning. When we look at the percentage in relation to their libraries the Saturn comes out with 35% of it's library worth owning where as the PS1 comes out with about 20% worth owning. Now obviously these are ballpark guesses but you can still get the general idea.

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I'm pretty sure you're right about percentages, but who cares about it? People enjoy good games, not percentages.

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

But since racing games seems to be your main focus here is a list of every Racing game for the Saturn for every region. It even includes average user ratings:
http://www.satakore.com/saturndb.php...ting=1&order=1

But I'm all for the comparison if you want to do it.

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I know where to find lists, man, I'm not an idiot. The thing is that I need someone who have actually played most of those games, especially the lesser known ones.

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Originally Posted by sheath

Both should play better with a good flight stick, a light gun with some buttons on it for directions and weapons, motion controls, or a touch screen. ;)

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All those things are legitimate but mouse/keyboard gets singled out as not being legitimate? I don't follow the logic. Gaming on keyboard has been around a lot longer than motion controls or touch screens. How it not the ideal input for a text adventure, a genre where you type in commands. And light guns with directional buttons are cumbersome in their current form for FPS, for example Dino Stalker.

My favourite game is Deus Ex but I would never recommend anyone get the PS2 version primarily because it's best with mouse/keyboard. The console controls bring it down a lot.

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Originally Posted by gamevet

but there was also crap like Heavy Nova, Rise of the Robots, Bubsy, Atomic Runner and Super Thunder Blade.

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I think Atomic Runner is quite good: a unique, overlooked game in the Genesis library. And better than the arcade version.

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Originally Posted by j_factor

I still haven't played Skyrim. (I know that's not an opinion.) Why should I play this game, again?

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You might not get into the series but I recommend trying Morrowind first. What makes the variety of stuff to do compelling is that many of them are survival choices. You're constantly presented with areas too dangerous to go in so the fun is in exploring the world to find ways of advancing your character. Skyrim, by contrast, has a similar big world to explore but with enemies scaling in difficulty and fast travelling anywhere, it's not as challenging or rewarding to explore and gain levels. The combat is flashier and more satisfying in Skyrim, though.

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Originally Posted by Kamahl

I was exaggerating a bit due to the super popularity of both systems.

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Commodore computers have super popularity? Not in all regions, and certainly not on this forum. They're way underrated in North America. Very few people here owned Amigas here, and mostly only people in their late 30's and older remember the C64. The NES hogs all the 1980s attention nowadays.

Magician Lord is better than Ghouls 'n Ghosts.

Well if you want help Barone I'd be willing to throw in my two cents about the Saturn and some PS1 titles. Go ahead and start a topic for it if you want.

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Originally Posted by Kamahl

Mouse and Keyboard (separately too), Touchscreens, Gamepads, Joysticks, Paddles, etc... Are all valid gaming controls. They just work better for different kinds of games.
Cannon Fodder for example is fully playable with just a mouse and absolutely painful to play with a Pad or Joystick, so I really don't share sheath's opinion on this.

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Wait, what...I found Cannon Fodder to be quite playable on the Mega Drive with the six button pad. Are you talking about the Amiga version?

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Originally Posted by AlecRob

Magician Lord is better than Ghouls 'n Ghosts.

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Now that's one I've never played before. What's it like? Is is hard as hell like Ghouls 'N Ghosts?

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

Well if you want help Barone I'd be willing to throw in my two cents about the Saturn and some PS1 titles. Go ahead and start a topic for it if you want.

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Here we go:
http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthr...155#post583155
Thanks! ;)

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Originally Posted by Barone

The part you posted barely has any "footage" of the PS1 sound, it's mostly the Saturn version. And, like I complain about most of the comparison video makers, there's no indication when it's outputting Saturn sound and when it's outputting PS1 sound (however, I know that you covered it in your last videos, thanks for that 'cause no one seem to understand that the audio info should be as important and the visual one). But, in the brief segment when I can hear the PS1 sound, it's wider and stronger IMO. You can't hear the other cars sfx properly on the Saturn.

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I meant to mention that, I obviously didn't think to compare the audio because I didn't notice any differences. I think one of the other videos is better, but I spent too much time on the scrolling transitions before switching the audio. Back then I was trying not to confuse people, and people got REALLY confused when I switched the audio during a transition, they liked it only after the transition finished.

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Originally Posted by Barone

Again, you're being radical. Wii U is bombing hard, despite being from the magical awesome best ever company called Nintendo.

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That is a good point, but I would argue that Wii U failed at successfully marketing itself (15%), Identifying with Consumer Felt Needs (10%), and Measurable Product Quality (%1) :0. So, let's assume that with all of those there would be a 26% increase in sales plus the synergistic relationship between brand loyalty and these aspects. I do think that 70% for Brand loyalty is very high, I just couldn't decide if it was only 50% or more. ;)

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Originally Posted by Barone

The 32X in its own existence isn't the problem, the hardware was actually good I think. The decision to invest time and money on it and its marketing campaign, especially considering the Sega's financial situation, wasn't wise though. It was an unnecessary risk from a business point of view and, unlike you said many times, the boost in sales was really just a holiday season short breath, like the sales numbers posted in the last discussion pointed. So it served no good purpose to the company.

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Not with what they did to it and with the Saturn, I agree.

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Originally Posted by Barone

No, no... You can smoke while playing very easily and drink when you die or while loading the next level. My time doing that has passed though...

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I always have a drink of some sort with me when I game, I'm still not seeing how a mouse and keyboard facilitates this more than a controller.

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Originally Posted by Kamahl

Mouse and Keyboard (separately too), Touchscreens, Gamepads, Joysticks, Paddles, etc... Are all valid gaming controls. They just work better for different kinds of games.
Cannon Fodder for example is fully playable with just a mouse and absolutely painful to play with a Pad or Joystick, so I really don't share sheath's opinion on this.

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My opinion isn't based on whether or not certain kinds of games can be played with a keyboard, mouse, or both. One of my first games was Ladder on the Kaypro and I used the number pad just fine to play that game. That isn't the point of my opinion statement though. If somebody figured out a way to make a fax machine, or rotary phone, or type writer let you play a game, these would not become legitimate gaming devices all of a sudden. Their original design is not for games. An Oscilloscope isn't a game device just because the first game was made on one is it?

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Originally Posted by NeoZeedeater

All those things are legitimate but mouse/keyboard gets singled out as not being legitimate? I don't follow the logic. Gaming on keyboard has been around a lot longer than motion controls or touch screens. How it not the ideal input for a text adventure, a genre where you type in commands. And light guns with directional buttons are cumbersome in their current form for FPS, for example Dino Stalker.

My favourite game is Deus Ex but I would never recommend anyone get the PS2 version primarily because it's best with mouse/keyboard. The console controls bring it down a lot.

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I had a Marine buddy suck me into Battlefield 2 on the PC and I ended up using a Dreamcast pad with a keyboard nearby for weapon changes. I played just as well, that is mediocre compared to seasoned players, regardless of whether I used a trackball, mouse, 360 Gamepad or Dreamcast pad. Actually, because of the Dreamcast analog stick's sensitivity I could play and aim a little bit better with it than I could with my mouse or trackball. The same thing happened when I played Quake 2 on PC back in the day. I got the same rankings online regardless of device, middle of the road scores. I spent a lot less time fumbling with controls with a gamepad though.

I love a regular control pad for gaming. NES dog bone / snes style ftw!

I hate touchscreens, keyboard + mouse combo, the n64 controlpad, analog sticks, joysticks that aren't on an arcade stick.