https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsmB82oDZ-0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xx9uLg6pYc0
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The thing that makes console vs arcade so difficult, or perhaps so much fun (or both) is that with the arcade, you're shooting at a moving target. Different arcade games use different chips. Now, from the mid 80's through the early 80's just about every one of those games involved some kind of FM chip, but there were several in use, and they all produced somewhat different results.Quote:
Originally Posted by OverDrone
You saw earlier how I made the mistake of just assuming midnight resistance used the most commonly used arcade FM chip (OPM), when in fact it mostly used the OPL2 (widely regarded as a significantly inferior chip. (Think Sharp X68000 vs Ad-Lib). The good news/bad news of the FM chips is that for as different as they are, and for as different as the sound they produce, they're also all similar enough in their output that the kind of mistake I made is not impossible to make if you're not paying attention, even if you have some level of knowledge on the individual chips and how they spec.
As far as where the OPN2, aka YM2612 - the FM chip in the Genesis ranks, it's up there, but probably not the top (I think most everyone would agree OPM is better (and OPM was the most frequently used). But where the Genesis really loses ground to the Arcade is not in its FM, but in its sampling abilities: with Genesis, you had to sacrifice an FM channel (leaving you with only 5 free) in order to get lo-fi, mostly gritty samples (worked fine for drums, though). Whereas with the Arcade, those FM chips were almost always paired with a discrete sampler chip which had one or more channels of much higher quality samples.
True, Genesis also had the PSG chip, which you did not often find paired to the FM in the arcade, but FM can fake a "square wave" with at least pretty convincing results really easily using two sine waves on one channel, and with 8 FM channels on the OPM, and sampling being done by a different chip, you could get pretty close to the same results without having to have the PSG.
But you're absolutely right in that the Genesis is a real contender against the arcade and wins as often, or at least, nearly as often as it loses. And you're also right that the comparisons are fascinating and fun!
What's interesting is when you have Arcade vs Genesis vs PC Engine, and the PC Engine arguably sounds more like the Arcade version than the Genesis, even when Arcade and Genesis are both FM, and PCE is Wavetable (compleeeeeeeeeatly different method of sound production).
Case in point: Truxton/Tatsujin. Maybe it's stretching it to say that the PCE sounds MORE like the Arcade than the Genesis....but maybe it's not - you decide! (I for one think the PCE version sounds much better than the Genesis, relation to the Arcade aside...actually, to be honest, I even like it better than the Arcade):
part 1 (runs track-by-track in Arcade, Genesis, PC Engine order):
part 2:
part 3:
part 4:
As far as the Neo Geo goes, what makes it interesting is that while Genesis is FM/PSG, and SNES is multi-channel PCM, Neo Geo is all of the above. While this isn't 100% precise, neither is it too much of a stretch to call Neo Geo an SNES/Genesis duet...at least in the early games, where the FM was still prominently used, and the PCM samples were still relatively small.
Here are some examples:
Later games gunned for CD-Rom, marginalizing the FM, and resorting to massive CD-Rom-Like PCM samples, rather than the small SNES-Like ones.
Here are just a couple examples:
Of course, there are transitional ones that meet these two schools somewhere in the middle, where the samples are quite a bit higher grade than the SNES, but the FM is still very much present, and something of an SNES/Genesis duet effect can still be appreciated...such as:
PSG was not prominently used in Neo Geo in either era, but you can find it showing up from time to time.
On this first one, I think I hear it in the background earlier than this, but it is crystal clear at 1:13 (the faint droning in the background) On the second one, the PSG is obvious from the word go, and stays that way for all or most of the track:
As far as the actual FM capabilities of the Neo Geo, they are actually less than the Genesis. On an individual channel-per-channel basis, they're pretty much identical. But the Neo Geo only has 4 FM channels, where the Genesis has 6. It's just the Neo Geo has 7 ADPCM channels that don't require any sacrifice to the FM.
The Sega Master System is discriminated because sms sound chip. We cannot forget that sms will complete 30th anniversary in next year. My tribute goes to these musics:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_gjQHAG_ws
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXDVIOeyERs
The star wars version for sms had some compositions better than nes like as prision theme (without sound chip) but not disponible in youtube.
To be continued...
Who knows i will have the happiness in see a sms post icon.
Good examples of that early Neo sound with Cyberlip and Magician Lord. Last Resort as well, and I was especially impressed when I first heard Fatal Fury in the arcade, though Art of Fighting set a new benchmark when it dropped, stuff like CPS1 seemed dated in comparison.
In fact CPS2 couldn't touch the Neo Geo either IMO.
The later era games that used those massive PCM files weren't quite as interesting on the sound front although admittedly there was still some classic stuff anyway.
Oh, I totally agree that the early Neo stuff is a lot more interesting, and by and large, more enjoyable. Really the only thing the Neo is missing is some sort of Wavetable hardware. Man, then it would've had it all!
The best example imho would be Knights of the round. the SNES version is simply epic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay See Double You
Magic sword is also a good example.
So is U.N Squadron
And possible King of dragons. Not sure about this one though as the arcade version is pretty damn good too.
Lets compare the first level theme:
Arcade:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7v-vohVNoQ&list=PL084B7978C5F51B30&index=3
SNES ( I do not like this much as it seems to be recorded with too much gain out of an emulator but could not find a better version )
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gzIuqLUFUo
I'd say I like these two about equally. Then again, as you say, the SNES seems to be recorded a little hot. But to be honest, one of the biggest turns offs for me when it comes to the SNES is that always sounds muffly, and often sounds mushy. In the case of this track, I'd wager the extra edge is actually making me like it a little bit more than I normally would.
Still, this is undeniably a good rendition on the SNES.
As far as Magic Sword, UN Squadron and Street Fighter II, those all sorta serve as negative examples for me. Those are probably the ones I feel most strongly pro-arcade. I will say this: when comparing the CPS1 arcade vs the Genesis vs the PCE vs the SNES SFII soundtrack, I did indeed find SNES OVERALL to be my least favorite - HOWEVER, my favorite INDIVIDUAL track of the whole lot was Sagat from the SNES. Fantastic rendition! SNES's Dhalsim is really, really good too, as is Blanka, E. Honda, and Zangief. With the exception of Blanka (Genesis), I liked all these tracks better on SNES than on any other system. But then there are the Balrog, Ken, and Guile themes (etc) where I can barely endure the SNES versions.
So there are exceptional tracks in the SNES renditions, no doubt, it's just speaking big picture, I tend to be less fond of them than I am the Arcade (and others).
Different strokes, right? :)
Okay, I've got another face-off, but this one is not two different versions of the same track, but two completely different tracks with similar vibes...or at least I think they have similar vibes.
So, the two questions: 1) Do you think this is a valid or invalid "vibe off" (in other words, do you think I'm right that these two tracks have a similar vibe, or do you think I'm wrong?) and 2) Which one do you like better and why? The Jury's still out for me.
This is also a cross-generational vibe off. We have one 4th gen track....and one 7th.
Our 4th gen track is BGM 2 from Arnold Palmer Tournament Golf for the Sega Genesis:
And our 7th gen track is "Contest Results Parade" from the Check Mii Out Channel (RIP) on the Nintendo Wii:
DISCUSS! :D
Kamahl, I just listened to that Genesis cover of the DKC track! That's incredible! At certain points it's almost indistinguishable from the SNES original, only a bit crisper and punchier! It retains its Genesis advantages and yet very nearly matches the SNES' advantages. Then again, to be fair, though still a little mufflier, that is an uncharacteristically clean sounding SNES track. So they're both quite impressive given the respective limitations of the systems they're on.
I love that bass in the remix, by the way!
And the Spider-Man/X Men track? Holy Crap! That's phenomenal too! You can clearly tell the difference between the sampled ("canned") synth on the SNES, and the "live" synthesis happening on the Genny (not only the higher fidelity on the genny, but the greater flexibility and mutability there as well. Also, this track makes brilliant use of the PSG, where the DKC track's use of it is a little more iffy. There are a few exceptions to this, but for the most part, I like the individual voices better on the Genesis. The ONLY reason I'm saying I still like the SNES version better is because the balancing levels of the voices are just perfect, where some voices are too strong or not strong enough on the remix. If they had matched that too, then my vote totally would've gone the other way.
Thank you a bazillion for sharing these! They're both awesome! +1000!
Yeah he pulled them off really nicely. Unlike most covers on youtube he tried to get as close as possible to the SNES originals. Pretty much puts to rest the question of "how close could the genesis sound in a proper port".Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay See Double You
The only thing that's not very accurate are the drums (they'd be more noisy on the genesis).
He also did a pretty much perfect rendition of Simon's Theme (on a another note, it's ultra hard to find SNES videos with the sound correctly emulated):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEGZEDgLHCk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tuUQEh2OSxM
I dunno, SNES9X always sounded like that when I heard it. Then again, there are enough meatheads that use ZSNES still, so who knows?
Personally, I'd rather hear the tracks the make the Genesis what it is, rather than covers, like there's something that needs to be proven.