Challenge vs Experience in regards to 'replay value'

Recently after thinking it through, I've realized that there are very few games with tremendous replay value in terms of challenge. Every game with linear AI can eventually be mastered, and without the element of challenge, a game becomes more of an experience.

Now I want to know, is replay value for you more about the experience of simply playing through the game regardless of whether you know you've mastered it and will win, or is it about how many challenges are left for you to master in it, such as placing certain conditions on it under which to win (i.e., finish FF1 with weakest party, beat SMB1 without powerups or losing a life, etc.)?

I'd say that most decent Action games have nearly infinite replay value. If you feel like you've mastered the game to the best of your ability put it down for a year or two, when you come back you will no doubt have to relearn some skills to play as well as you were. That's not even getting into OCD speed run glitch hunts, just regular play on all difficulties in an attempt to finish the game without getting hit or without dieing.

I am totally about the challenge when doing replays. No challenge, no game.
I am nowhere near a pro gamer but then I am also likely above average and will usually set myself goals like using no more than 1 continue or 1 live, Not looking at walkthroughs or no reloading after failures in pc games.

I am currently working a Megaman 2, possibly my favorite of the originals. It is usually considered the easiest and I can 1cc it but I want to do it on one life, ideally on hard without e-tanks.

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Originally Posted by MaxWar

I am totally about the challenge when doing replays. No challenge, no game.
I am nowhere near a pro gamer but then I am also likely above average and will usually set myself goals like using no more than 1 continue or 1 live, Not looking at walkthroughs or no reloading after failures in pc games.

I am currently working a Megaman 2, possibly my favorite of the originals. It is usually considered the easiest and I can 1cc it but I want to do it on one life, ideally on hard without e-tanks.

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I've only done that with one game, Super-C on the NES. I challenged myself to finish the game without any continues and succeeded in doing so. There are very few arcade games like that, where I would ever consider attempting it.

Replay value is really difficult to objectively define. It's more of a personal thing. My definition of replay value comes down to each individual game, whether it's "fun" to play, or it brings back fond memories, or has lots to see and do, or similar things.

As for challenge vs. experience, I definitely prefer experience in most instances. Challenge often turns into frustration for me. I end up getting more fun from games I'm familiar with, as strange as it sounds.

If by experience you mean familiarity - then I'm more inclined to replay a game for a sense of sentimentality rather than challenge.

I'll gladly admit I have absolutely no ambition of playing through the more hard-lining games on its most difficult setting in any efforts to challenge myself; I would suspect I'd just be inviting myself to observe how much of a good game I can tolerate before being completely blinded by sheer resentment.

Set it on easy and let me pretend I'm bad ass.

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Originally Posted by Guntz

Replay value is really difficult to objectively define. It's more of a personal thing. My definition of replay value comes down to each individual game, whether it's "fun" to play, or it brings back fond memories, or has lots to see and do, or similar things.

As for challenge vs. experience, I definitely prefer experience in most instances. Challenge often turns into frustration for me. I end up getting more fun from games I'm familiar with, as strange as it sounds.

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I agree with guntz on this one.

Ketsui xbox 360, goooood luck.

Of course replay value is all about the experience not the challenge. Yesterday I ran through tmnt 3: the manhatten project on the famicom like it's nothing. Did I enjoy it? Every d@mn second I was lovin' it!

http://cdn.ebaumsworld.com/mediaFile...4/81905415.jpg

In terms of challenge I managed to clear (and record) castlevania dracula x on the snes without dieing once and getting the good ending....that's never happening again. Would I want to do this again? F#ck no! Would I play the game again for fun allowing myself to die? Yes!

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Originally Posted by MaxWar

I am totally about the challenge when doing replays. No challenge, no game.
I am nowhere near a pro gamer but then I am also likely above average and will usually set myself goals like using no more than 1 continue or 1 live, Not looking at walkthroughs or no reloading after failures in pc games.

I am currently working a Megaman 2, possibly my favorite of the originals. It is usually considered the easiest and I can 1cc it but I want to do it on one life, ideally on hard without e-tanks.

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Without e-tanks the first wily is d@mn near impossible. The rest of the game is a joke.

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Originally Posted by robotscandance

I agree with guntz on this one.

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I second that. It really depends on what you enjoy personally. I could never play roleplaying games more than once but some people can play their favorites dozens of times.

There are certain games that I play at least once a year between new games/games I haven't played before. They're practically second nature to me now but I still get the same amount of enjoyment out of them as I always have. Sometimes I see something new or get even better at something and my appreciation for the game grows.

There's nothing wrong with challenge but if I'm not enjoying the game in the first place I'm just going to find it frustrating.

To me, replay is about fun, and this can be because of different reasons like Guntz mentioned. Mostly though, I find games that are very much video games to be fun. What I mean is that I don't replay games as much for stories or an interactive experience, but for the game itself. This is kind hard to explain. It's like tetris. It's a game and you play it in a very direct fashion. Because it's a lot of fun you go back to it. Then you have something like Final Fantasy(watever). It's fun, but it's more of an interactive experience. Interactive experiences, in most cases, seem to be a one trick pony. Like watching a move, once you've experienced it, it's over. There's very little reason to go back and go through the same thing again. A game like tetris is different because even though it's the same, it also new each time. Modern video games, and I guess board games too, seem to straddle a line between these.

In short the more a game is on the "game" side of the line, the more replay value I think it has at least for me. Sorry if none of this made sense.

I'm for the opinion that a great game doesn't need a bunch of extras, unlockables and such to make you come back for it. Sure, a great game with a lot to do is a great bonus but it's not indispensable.
That's why i like to take the time with the games that i play, to really get into the gameplay and beat it on hard, very hard and so for.

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m9...ouxno1_500.gif

Except i would choose the first option.

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Originally Posted by Drakon

Without e-tanks the first wily is d@mn near impossible. The rest of the game is a joke.

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The trick Is to not get hit in the first part, which is actually not so bad. Then spamming Metal blades at 45 degree from the ground like crazy and hope he dies before you do. This also implies you get there with full health and a good supply of metal blades. Its doable but I agree its easier said than done.
I can 1cc the game easy but i have yet to do it on one life as i always miss a jump somewhere or get hit by those damned lasers in Quickman stage. I cannot beat quickman without using either a E-tank or the full Flashman charge. I suppose i should watch some youtube there to learn a better trick.

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Originally Posted by Bottino

I'm for the opinion that a great game doesn't need a bunch of extras, unlockables and such to make you come back for it. Sure, a great game with a lot to do is a great bonus but it's not indispensable.
That's why i like to take the time with the games that i play, to really get into the gameplay and beat it on hard, very hard and so for.

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I agree and I think too many games rely heavily on unlock systems to artificially lengthen themselves and keep people playing them long after the gameplay itself has become boring. It's especially prevalent in Free to Play model games where they taunt you with cash options to get to the unlock you're trying to earn faster. This is literally using the player's own boredom with your game to try and get them to give you money.

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Originally Posted by MaxWar

The trick Is to not get hit in the first part, which is actually not so bad. Then spamming Metal blades at 45 degree from the ground like crazy and hope he dies before you do. This also implies you get there with full health and a good supply of metal blades. Its doable but I agree its easier said than done.
I can 1cc the game easy but i have yet to do it on one life as i always miss a jump somewhere or get hit by those damned lasers in Quickman stage. I cannot beat quickman without using either a E-tank or the full Flashman charge. I suppose i should watch some youtube there to learn a better trick.

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It's sad. When I was a kid I could beat Quick Man with just the mega buster, and barely take a hit. Sometimes not at all. Now, that's impossible.

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Originally Posted by 5233

Recently after thinking it through, I've realized that there are very few games with tremendous replay value in terms of challenge. Every game with linear AI can eventually be mastered, and without the element of challenge, a game becomes more of an experience.

Now I want to know, is replay value for you more about the experience of simply playing through the game regardless of whether you know you've mastered it and will win, or is it about how many challenges are left for you to master in it, such as placing certain conditions on it under which to win (i.e., finish FF1 with weakest party, beat SMB1 without powerups or losing a life, etc.)?

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I like my games with experience based difficulty. Get my ass kicked 60 times but once i finally learn the right strategies and approach? I can win.

Even if future playthroughs are easy as hell because i already know all the strategies and how to get around obstacles? Hey, I've EARNED that. Now i can actually enjoy playing the game in a more casual sense if i want, and have that layer of the appreciation, as opposed to constantly being under fire.

Challenge-based where its just tossing shit tons of crap at you? That feels a lot more "artificial" and not very creative on the part of the developers. Any fool can make a game like that where the odds are always against you, and its just hard for the sake of being hard.

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Originally Posted by MaxWar

The trick Is to not get hit in the first part, which is actually not so bad. Then spamming Metal blades at 45 degree from the ground like crazy and hope he dies before you do. This also implies you get there with full health and a good supply of metal blades. Its doable but I agree its easier said than done.
I can 1cc the game easy but i have yet to do it on one life as i always miss a jump somewhere or get hit by those damned lasers in Quickman stage. I cannot beat quickman without using either a E-tank or the full Flashman charge. I suppose i should watch some youtube there to learn a better trick.

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I always get hit a lot by wily in both forms. I really don't find his shots easy to dodge. My idea of a fun challenge is beating quickman without getting hit once. I've done this once or twice but godd@mn is it tough. I did this playing him in his stage where the terrain is rigid not the boss rush version with a flat room. It's really fun trying to judge when to jump to avoid both quickman and his boomerangs, it's darn near impossible to do it without getting hit though.

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Originally Posted by old man

To me, replay is about fun, and this can be because of different reasons like Guntz mentioned. Mostly though, I find games that are very much video games to be fun. What I mean is that I don't replay games as much for stories or an interactive experience, but for the game itself. This is kind hard to explain. It's like tetris. It's a game and you play it in a very direct fashion. Because it's a lot of fun you go back to it. Then you have something like Final Fantasy(watever). It's fun, but it's more of an interactive experience. Interactive experiences, in most cases, seem to be a one trick pony. Like watching a move, once you've experienced it, it's over. There's very little reason to go back and go through the same thing again. A game like tetris is different because even though it's the same, it also new each time. Modern video games, and I guess board games too, seem to straddle a line between these.

In short the more a game is on the "game" side of the line, the more replay value I think it has at least for me. Sorry if none of this made sense.

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I keep going back to chrono trigger and final fantasy 6. Good stories and fun battle systems.

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Originally Posted by Drakon

I always get hit a lot by wily in both forms. I really don't find his shots easy to dodge. My idea of a fun challenge is beating quickman without getting hit once. I've done this once or twice but godd@mn is it tough. I did this playing him in his stage where the terrain is rigid not the boss rush version with a flat room. It's really fun trying to judge when to jump to avoid both quickman and his boomerangs, it's darn near impossible to do it without getting hit though.

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There is actually a cheesy trick for the first form of Willy. I used to get hit alot before I found that out. You just stick to the left side of the screen and dont move. When he shoots his ball you time yourself and jump over it while gunning him with the blaster. Wherever he is on the screen you can always jump over his ball if you time yourself right. You dont have much margin though, the jump must be right on time.

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Originally Posted by MaxWar

There is actually a cheesy trick for the first form of Willy. I used to get hit alot before I found that out. You just stick to the left side of the screen and dont move. When he shoots his ball you time yourself and jump over it while gunning him with the blaster. Wherever he is on the screen you can always jump over his ball if you time yourself right. You dont have much margin though, the jump must be right on time.

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Yeah it's just the timing is too difficult for me to bother figuring out when I have e-e-e-e-tanks!

i am generally not interested in the "challenge"
i play video games for my enjoyment and relaxation not to rage quite or drive my blood pressure up

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Originally Posted by KitsuneNight

...not to rage quite or drive my blood pressure up

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Haha. That is why I stopped playing Starcraft II ladders. This was a bit too much in term of stress.

It depends on the game for me, if I want a challenge I generally play beat em ups or racing games (im not very good at beat em ups, and i've never completed any of the micro machine games) but experience wise I like desert strike, i can complete it without losing a life, but i love the game mechanics.

What I left unsaid about the whole Challenge vs. Experience, Is that while I love the challenge and will seek to impose myself objectives, I will still play games that give me a good experience to begin with. I wont play a game that I do not like playing simply because it offers challenge. I am still kind of picky about the gameplay, Music, ambiance and art style.

The opposite scenario Is a game that I may like for Gameplay, ambiance, style etc, but is so easy that I wont even finish it once.
This is the Case with Grandia II on the dreamcast. I got pretty far in the game but I eventually quit because it was too easy. You dont even need to grind and its already easy. I actually liked the story and all but I was literally falling asleep playing it.

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Originally Posted by old man

It's sad. When I was a kid I could beat Quick Man with just the mega buster, and barely take a hit. Sometimes not at all. Now, that's impossible.

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I miss this, that's seriously difficult. Were you playing on "normal" perhaps?

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Originally Posted by KitsuneNight

i am generally not interested in the "challenge"
i play video games for my enjoyment and relaxation not to rage quite or drive my blood pressure up

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*high five*

Yeah, I'm sure it was on normal. That's hard enough for Quick Man.

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Originally Posted by MaxWar

What I left unsaid about the whole Challenge vs. Experience, Is that while I love the challenge and will seek to impose myself objectives, I will still play games that give me a good experience to begin with. I wont play a game that I do not like playing simply because it offers challenge. I am still kind of picky about the gameplay, Music, ambiance and art style.

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Oh hell yeah, if I don't like a game I don't feel obliged to "beat" it, I only play games for the joy of it, when it starts getting serious it just seems like hard work. Which kind of defeats the object of games..... Doesn't it? Or am I just not competitive? I used to be indecisive, but now I'm not sure :-)