One vote for "making it up".Quote:
Originally Posted by parallaxscroll
One vote for "making it up".Quote:
Originally Posted by parallaxscroll
Quote:
Originally Posted by parallaxscroll
Mars,Jupiter and Saturn were all System 32 based and designed chipsets. The difference was is that Jupiter used a single 3D processor based off of Model 1 technology. And Jupiter and Saturn are Completely different from each other. Jupiter had a completely different setup design than Saturn. It only used SH-1 and a single VDP, while the Saturn uses SH-2 and not one BUT 2 VDPs, both customized to run Model 2 games. And FYI, both the Jupiter and Saturn were designed with Lockheed Martin graphical technology, Saturn had lower resolution and lower end CPU power than Model 2. Nonetheless, its hardware was designed to run Model 2 games at lower power.
And just to let you know, Saturn was originally going to be cartridge based:http://www.trademarkia.com/segasaturn-74469937.html
The CD-ROM was added as an afterthought.
It would be utterly impossible for the setup you claim for Saturn to get Model 2 ports like VF2,Daytona USA, Sega Rally(Originally a Model 1 game) and Virtua Cop.
The VDPs were customized to run these games. The mostly 2D games are because System 32 hardware by itself is 2D at heart.
And spare me the details. Don't troll with"Orbi" speculation material you have zero knowledge on unless your intentionally trying to bait me into trouble.
Not going to work at all.
System 32 Specs:
Main CPU : NEC V60 @ 16.107950 MHz (32 bits RISC CPU)
Sound CPU : Z80 @ 8.053975 MHz
Sound chip : 2 x YM3438 @ 8.053975 MHz + Ricoh RF5c68 @ 12.5 MHz (8 Channel PCM chip remarked as Sega custom 315-*)
Max Colour's : 16384 (8bpp - 16 colour's per sprite)
Goes through a 16->512 indirection table, then selects which 512 color bank to take from 4096. This is used to do colour rotations (the red-yellow rotation of the lava sprites from Galaxy force for instance) without changing the color palette, also allows it to have sprites that rotate colors and sprites that don't on the same screen, and to get different levels of luminosity as well
Sprite Structure : Sprites follow each other in memory except when you stumble on a "go to "
Video resolution : 320 x 224
Board composition : Main board + Rom board
Sega STV:
Main CPUs : 2 x Hitachi SH-2 @ 28.6364 MHz
Sound CPU : MC68000 @ 11.45456 MHz
Sound chip : SCSP/YMF292-F (315-5687)/"LAKE" @ 11.3MHz, 32 PCM (Pulse Code Modulation) Channels, 44.1 khz Sampling Rate
Secondary CPUs;
SCU DSP : fixed point maths coprocessor, up to 4 parallel instructions.
VDP 1 : 32-bit video display processor : sprite and polygon, dual 256KB frame buffers for rotation and scaling effects, Texture Mapping, Goraud Shading, 512KB cache for textures
VDP 2 : 32-bit background and scroll plane video display processor, 2 Windows for special calculations, transparency, shadowing, background engine, 5 simulataneous scrolling backgrounds, 2 simultaneous rotating playfields, up to 60 frames per second animation
Main RAM : 2 Megabytes (16 megabits)
VRAM : 1.54 Megabytes (12 megabits)
Audio RAM : 512 Kilobytes (4 megabits)
Rendering Speed : 200,000 Texture Mapped Polygons/Second, 500,000 Flat Shaded Polygons/Second
Colours : 24-bit true color graphics, 16. Million Available Colors
Resolution : 320x224, 640x224, and 720x576 horizontal and 240, 448, and 480 vertical
Board composition : Main board + Game cartridge (one or more in the same time)
Game Cartridge Size : Max size = 384mbit (48meg)
Other infos : This board is Jamma and uses a standard resolution monitor
System Pictures : STV Mother Board - Lot of Carts - Unit - One Cart - Video Board - STV Manual
Sega Saturn:
CPU: Two 28.6 MHz, SH-2 32-bit RISC
CO-PROCESSORS: 20 Mhz SH-1
SCU (DMA and Control Processor)
Motorola 68EC000:
32 PCM Channels
8 FM Channels
Audio RAM: 512KB
VIDEO: VDP1, VDP2, DSP (geometry)
RAM: 2 MBytes
Video RAM: 1.5MBytes
RESOLUTION: Non-interlaced NTSC: 320X224, 320X240, 352X224, 352X240, 352X256, 640X224, 640X240, 640X256, 704X224, 704X240, 704X256 Interlaced: 320X448, 320X480, 352X448, 352X480, 640X448, 640X480, 704X448, 704X480
POLYGONS: 500,000 flat-shaded quads per second; 200,000, 8-bit (256 colors) texture-mapped (non-lighted)
CD RAM: 512 KB
Max Color Palette: 24-bit, or 16,777,216
Marketing performance: 50 MIPS (w/o DSP)
32X Specs:
CPU: Two 23 MHz 32-bit RISC (Hitachi SH-2)
Optional overlay of Genesis graphics:
CO-PROCESSORS:
7.6 MHz 68000
3.58 MHz Z80 (Sound or Graphics)
TI 76489 (PSG)
Yamaha YM 2612 (FM):
10 Channels + 2 Digital channels (32X)
RESOLUTION: 320x224
RAM: 512 KB plus Genesis or Sega CD RAM
POLYGONS:
25,000 texture mapped per second
50,000 theoretical (box specs)
Max Colors On Screen: 32,768
Color Palette: 32,768
Storage: Cart 16 Mbits to 32 Mbits, or 1X CD-ROM
Marketing performance: 23 MIPS per SH-2
I say the Saturn and 32X, and therefore the Neptune and Jupiter and Mars, have more in common with the Model 2 and Model 1 hardware limitations than they do with the Sprite only System 32.
Model 1 Specs:
Main CPU : 32bits RISC NEC V60 uPD-70616 @ 16 MHz (2.5 MIPS)
Graphics Co-Processor : Fujitsu TGP MB86233 FPU 32bits 16M flops
Sound CPU : 68000 @ 12Mhz
Sound chip : 2 x Sega MultiPCM Custom 28 channel PCM chips @ 8 MHz, 1 for Music and 1 for Effects. Each can access up to 8meg sample rom *per chip*
Sound Timing Chip : YM3834 @ 8MHz (only used for its timers)
Co-Processor Abilities : Floating decimal point operation function, Axis rotation operation function, 3D matrix operation function
Geometry : 180,000 polygons/sec, 540,000 vectors/sec
Rendering : 1,200,000 pixels/sec
Video : Shading Flat Shading, Diffuse Reflection, Specula Reflection, 2 Layers of Background Scrolling, Alpha Channel
Video resolution : 496x384 in 65536 colors
Model 2 Specs:
Main CPU : Intel i960-KB @ 25 MHz 32bits RISC
Graphics Co-Processor : Fujitsu TGP MB86234 FPU 32bits 16M flops
Co-Processor Abilities : Floating decimal point operation function, Axis rotation operation function, 3D matrix operation function
Sound CPU : 16bits 68000 @ 10Mhz
Sound chip : 2 x Custom 28 channel PCM chips, 1 for Music and 1 for Effects (Can access up to 8meg sample rom *per chip*)
Sound Timing Chip : YM3834 @ 8MHz (only used for its timers)
Audio RAM : 540 Kilobytes (4 megabits)
Video resolution : 496x384 in 65536 colors
Geometry : 300,000 polygons/s. 900,000 vectors/s
Rendering : 1,200,000 pixels/s
Video : Shading Flat Shading, Perspective Texture, Micro Texture, Multi Window, Diffuse Reflection, Specula Reflection.
---------------------------------------------------------
The only thing the 32X shares in common with System 32 is the resolution and the Z80, though System 32's Z80 is almost triple the speed. Both 32X and Saturn are significantly more powerful and capable in color palette, objects on screen, and especially 3D rendering. It is historically known that the 32X was created to compete with the Atari Jaguar, so any speculation about it being designed to handle Model 1 ports will remain secondary to its primary function. The Saturn seems to be designed to handle Model 2 ports in every way except pure vertex/polygon processing, in every other way Saturn is comparable to Model 2. In fact, if the Saturn had a beefier VDP1 alone it would have bested the Model 2 handily.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sheath
Bingo. Flawless post and assesment of SEGA's 32-bit line that fully explains how each design is customized to run the Model 1 and 2 games.
Its obvious that the Sega Neptune build used extra components from Jupiter which shows that had 32X been stand alone, it would have been a very powerful system by itself. This shows that the 32X attachment design was a complete mishap and blunder. The setup on not using its internal processor and harnessing data from the aging Genesis limited the silicon's capabilities to just System 32 style sprites and visuals. So Jupiter and Sega Neptune were as close to each other as you can get.
Which means the Sega Neptune design would have worked out better.
"mrsega", that is a brain fart if I have ever seen one. I usually stop typing when stuff that makes no sense starts flowing. Neptune = All-in-One Genesis + 32X, Jupiter = Cartridge Based Saturn. Besides those facts, the Genesis' "aging" silicon was more than capable of running audio, backgrounds, IO and AI even through the Saturn's lifetime.Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSega
The Genesis' 68k, VDP, Z80, YM2612 and PSG in no way made the 32X more like the System 32. The 32X is a couple of frame buffers with two SH-2s attached if you want to consider it alone. With the Genesis the 32X is basically in the same generation as the 3DO and Jaguar.
Kalinske lies way to much.
What in the world are you talking about? Did you read that recent interview here with one of the guys who designed the 32X? He made it clear that he was working on the design along with someone from Sega of Japan. The 32X was not "designed in secret by Sega of America". It didn't happen like that at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSega
http://www.sega-16.com/2013/02/interview-joe-miller/
Quote:
Sega-16: That leads us to the question that has to be asked. There’s been great debate, great drama, about the origins of the 32X, so let’s settle it once and for all. Was the 32X something that began at SOJ, or was it SOA’s response to an order from Japan. There’s that famous story about you, Marty Franz, Scot Bayless and others in a hotel suite, coming up with the design for the 32X on a napkin. There’s the whole story about how SOJ basically wanted a Genesis 2, which was basically the same machine with a larger color palette, and you convinced them to go with the infamous mushroom add-on design instead. What’s truth and what’s urban legend?
Joe Miller: It’s not as dramatic at all as it’s been made out to seem. There was no palace revolt, and I don’t think there were any napkins involved, though we did have large stacks of sticky, white paper… easel paper all over the place. We were drawing pictures and diagrams (system diagrams) and doing lots of other things during those meetings which took place at all hours in rooms at our Las Vegas hotel.
Hideki Sato was right there with us, and I don’t want to rehash history – I certainly don’t want to rewrite it either, because there has been a lot said about it, about what exactly transpired there. Let me just put it this way. At CES (Consumer Electronics Show) – and perhaps we even had a little warning before CES – it became clear that there was a desire for us to take a product that was in the early design stages in Japan. It was a new platform (nobody was codenaming things “Jupiter” then, or even “Mars” at that point), and there was certainly an awareness that Japan had an idea of what they wanted to do with a Genesis platform that had more colors and was able to do 3D… take some of what we learned on the SVP chip – the polygon-pusher chip – and integrate something that was more capable and build a new platform. It was still going to be a 16-bit machine with some limited 32-bit capabilities.
When CES began, we started having discussions about the timeframe for this because there was a strong desire for it. It was January (this was winter CES), and there was a strong desire for whatever it was we were going to build to be available in the marketplace by Christmas of that year. That’s a tall order for a start-from-scratch machine. Nothing exists; no boards exist, no chipsets… a tall order for anybody at any organization to say “let’s design hardware; let’s build it; let’s get development systems, and let’s have titles that are compelling enough to actually gain the attention of our customers… not alienate them but actually cause them to be excited about it,” in basically a six to nine-month timeframe.
So, given all of that, we collectively – those of us on the technical side at SOA and the senior technical representatives that were at the show from Sega of Japan – said “let’s at least talk about alternatives. Let’s at least spend some time exploring the art of the possible,” and we did that. We had several designs, several architectures… several choices. Some were simpler than others, and some were more complex, but they were all generally in the same category of what SOJ wanted to do with the new platform.
One of them was to see if we could leverage the existing Genesis as a base and then add capability to it. Frankly, we had done as much with the Sega CD, an add-on that had started, literally, as a sit-underneath platform, and that added new capability. It added a color layer; it added audio and a bunch of other capabilities, and we sold around six million of those. The installed base for the Genesis at that time was something less than 40 million, so we felt that model had some merit, because it kept our customers from having to discard an existing platform that they had made an investment in already. Certainly, our core customers had made an investment in several titles, several games on that platform.
So we were looking for a way to leverage the best of what we had done and add that capability to something new, and the 32X evolved out of that. It certainly wasn’t a revolt, and it wasn’t a matter of us or me standing up and saying “no, that’s a bad idea.” I don’t think I ever said that… [Laughs]… I don’t believe I ever said to anyone from SOJ who came over with the original idea that it was bad idea because that wasn’t the kind of relationship we had. I had more respect for all of them than that. But, by the end of CES, we collectively came up with something we thought would work better. They thought it was pretty cool and said “this is great. Why don’t you guys help us run with it? Help us figure out how to pull this off.”
It was the first time we had been invited to do that, to be in on the ground floor discussion of a platform as it was evolving. More importantly, they were inviting us to help them design it, to lead some of the process of getting that done, and we did it. Of course, for better or for worse we did ship it in November of that year, so we met our timing objectives.
One of the reasons I didn’t want to go here in the interview is because I think the 32X actually was an interesting, viable platform. The timing was wrong, and certainly our ability to stick with it, given what we did with Saturn, was severely limited. There were a whole bunch of reasons why we couldn’t ultimately do what we had to do with that platform, without third party support and with the timing of Saturn, but I still think the project was a success for a bunch of other reasons. In hindsight, it was not a great idea for a whole bunch of other reasons. You know, we could look back and quarterback the whole process and determine what part of that made sense and what didn’t, but I like to think that if you take the 32X as a product, as a design, as a meaningful stepwise improvement that allowed existing core Genesis customers to take their box, add some pretty interesting capabilities on top of that, and do it all under $150 at launch… there was no one thinking that there would be a 32-bit platform out there at anything less than $300, so we were essentially able to build a high performance platform for half the price of what our customers were expecting to have to shell out. I still think it was a worthwhile exercise.
First, did you read the article in the OP? It's pretty good and interesting. This reply doesn't really sound like you read it.Quote:
Originally Posted by sheath
Beyond that, regardless of what you think of the mainstream sites, it is true that Sega was offered the video chip that would be in the N64. It was of course just the video chip and not the whole N64, but it certainly happened; I'm not sure what you're sayin here about that, are you implying that it didn't happen or something? Joe Miller confirms that they were offered the SGI chip in the interview above of course. And as for Sony, what, if you read it, you think that this new article (in the OP) is all lies? Why would Kalinske lie about that? I don't know if it exactly makes him look good... but anyway, the article makes it clear that the potential Sony-Sega deal wasn't at E3 '95, but was before that. It says "“Sony came to us after they had been rebuffed by Nintendo,” remembers Kalinske.". That wouldn't be E3 '95, but well before that. Sometime while Sega and Sony started working together a bit on the Sega CD (in '92-'94). The article describes how Sega and Sony each backed some Digital Pictures titles in '92; that happened, of course. The two did have a relationship then. And Sony had been rejected by Nintendo, so isn't it natural that they'd consider looking to the other big hardware manufacturer? In like '93 or something I don't think Sony was set on making its own hardware yet. But after Sega rejected them too, then they did make their own console. I think it all makes sense to me.
And if that makes Sega of Japan look bad... well, their insistence on the Saturn's hardware WAS a bad idea.
Overall great post Falcon.
Kalinske is the same guy that berated Nintendo for going with carts for the N64 then in the same interview saying how great the cart based 32X was. Kalinske was nothing more that a used car salesman.Quote:
Originally Posted by A Black Falcon
Emphasis on "System 32 style". The controllers on System 32 hardware were completely different from 32X's.Quote:
Originally Posted by sheath
Hence, "System 32 style or System 32-like". Designed to look similar to S32 using the Genesis hardware.
You took my words out of context.
@A Black Falcon. During early 1993, the only output SEGA of America had for Genesis' successor was. the "GigaDrive" project. Nakayama had put SOA in charge of the Genesis successor codenamed" Mars" that summer and Hideki Sato had been sent over from Japan to oversee the project. While Away27 had been developing the chipsets for Mars and Jupiter since the first half of 1992, Project Aurora didn't start design development until February 1993.(Saturn's design actually came later that year) The chipsets did not get their codenames until January 1994 when PSX was announced. So Miller is referring to what communication SOA was. getting from Japan during '93.
The 32X attachment design or "Genesis 32" which they were calling it obviously was a result of miscommunication and mis translation of what they heard Nakayama wanted and a response to the Jaguar. I reinterate that 32X's design was unnecessary and that judging by the date all the prototype designs got trademarked(February 1994), Away27 had already designed a stand alone build of the hardware which shows this is what Nakayama had meant. The Sega Neptune design.
Well, the 32X wasn't meant to be a "real" next-gen console, and wasn't supposed to last through the whole generation. That is a bit hypocritical, but the two did have different concepts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Da_Shocker
Yes they are but at the end of the day it was still cart based. Have you actually read any of Kalinske's interviews in the Next Generation magazines?Quote:
Originally Posted by A Black Falcon
*edit*
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=422270
http://www.goodcowfilms.com/web/next...erview_pg2.jpg
32 x peripheral, ADD ON.
"Initially, the 32X began as "Project Jupiter", an entirely new independent console concept being developed by Sega of Japan. Project Jupiter was initially slated to be a new version of the Genesis, with an upgraded color palette and a lower cost than the upcoming Saturn. However, the concept did not go over well with executives at Sega of America. When presented with a demonstration of Project Jupiter, Sega of America research and development head Joe Miller said, "Oh, that's just a horrible idea. If all you're going to do is enhance the system, you should make it an add-on. If it's a new system with legitimate new software, great. But if the only thing it does is double the colors..."[3] At his suggestion, Sega reformatted the 32X into a peripheral for the existing Genesis, which became Project Mars, and expanded its power with two 32-bit processors. Although the new unit was a stronger console than was originally proposed, it was not compatible with Saturn games.[3] This was justified by Sega's statement that both platforms would run at the same time, and that the 32X would be aimed at players who could not afford the more expensive Saturn.[6]
The 32X was released in November 1994, in time for the holiday season that year. Demand among retailers was high, and Sega could not keep up orders for the system.[3] Over 1,000,000 orders had been placed for 32X units, but Sega had only managed to ship 600,000 units by January 1995.[6]"
32X was a stop gap console. Much like Virtual Boy or what Nintendo was considering for Atlantis (VB's stand alone console variant).Quote:
Originally Posted by A Black Falcon
The reason why 32X bombed so badly was because 1. The attachment was poorly designed and rushed. 2. SOA didn't sent out development kits until March which caused a severe half baked rushed lineup. And 3. The design created a huge setback in making sure everything was polished. The hardware and software failed to impress because most of the games looked no different from their Genesis counterparts.
What a pitiful waste of design of what could have been be a neat console.
If SEGA had just stuck with the Sega Jupiter or Sega Neptune design, none of this would have happened.
Seriously why do people keep calling it a console or system when it was just an upgrade/add on/peripheral ? (We know the origins but it is what it is, a peripheral).