Can People Have Nostalgia For Early 3D Games?

This was a question brought up by one of the members of 4chan's new Retro Games board (which I'm proud to say that I'm a member of) and I thought I might import it over here. I'm sure most of you are aware of the constant barrage of indie titles that use sprite based graphics to create the illusion of an early 8-bit game, they're everywhere. It's obvious that people have a lot of love for the look, but why is there no love for early 3D games?

For some reason I've just always loved the artistry of it, same goes for early CG, where the have to work in a limited environment to create the most accurate representation of the object as possible. But unfortunately, I'm in the minority because a lot of people think that PS1, Saturn, and N64 games are either incredibly dated or look like absolute horseshit

So, will we ever seen an appreciation of this polygonal art form?

I miss the early 3D arcade styled racers, like Daytona and Ridge Racer, it had a certain simple look to it.

can't say I miss the cube 3D of Resident Evil though.

imo they were so close to mastering 2D, and then they jumped ship to bad 3D.

that's why I don't really feel nostalgic for that era, it was a rather ugly era in gaming.

The only early 3d that I think still has some charm is the flat shaded polygon look of Star Fox and Virtua Racing and such. It's just so simple, and makes you use your imagination, a lot like 2600 games. A lot of PSX and N64 games just look muddy and ugly. I used to love Star Fox 64, but the graphics are too blocky and the textures too low res and muddy. I got SF64 3D today, and it's amazing what a single generation in 3d console tech brought to the table.

I actually wouldn't've minded if graphics had generally stayed at about PS2-Wii level, with more focus on shaders and bigger worlds with greater draw distances.

It will just take more time. I have heard plenty younger kids call the N64 "old school" and I think plenty of people have found memories of the early 3d Zelda and Mario Games.

I think the Early 3D looking terrible is less about the actual polygons, and more about the blocky textures.

Considering that Playstation is my favorite console of all time and the one I have the most games for, I would say yes. For example, I adore Spryo 1-3 and have strong feelings for them. I havent played them in years so I dont know how badly they have aged in terms of blockiness and textures but I highly doubt they are gonna make me cringe if I play them again.

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Originally Posted by negative chill

For some reason I've just always loved the artistry of it, same goes for early CG, where the have to work in a limited environment to create the most accurate representation of the object as possible. But unfortunately, I'm in the minority because a lot of people think that PS1, Saturn, and N64 games are either incredibly dated or look like absolute horseshit

So, will we ever seen an appreciation of this polygonal art form?

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Panzer Dragoon Saga is the game that always comes to mind when thinking of pure art from low capabilities.

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Originally Posted by Iron Lizard

It will just take more time. I have heard plenty younger kids call the N64 "old school" and I think plenty of people have found memories of the early 3d Zelda and Mario Games.

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This. I've heard the GameCube described like that too.

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Originally Posted by Rusty Venture

I think the Early 3D looking terrible is less about the actual polygons, and more about the blocky textures.

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^
VERY MUCH THIS. I enjoy the look of smooth polygons like Virtua Racing or whatnot. But I can't tell you how much worse the same game would look with Playstation-like blocky, warped and grainy textures on it.

Think of all of the kids who grew up with the N64. Of course they can...!

I still love psone games, blocky and muddy textures in all.....

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Originally Posted by Iron Lizard

and I think plenty of people have found memories of the early 3d Zelda and Mario Games.

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Can you tell me where they found them? I'd like some early 3D memories too!

I was born about when the Saturn and PS1 were being released in the USA. So yes, I have plenty of nostalgia for those games.

I think it's difficult to have nostalgia for them because the majority of games today are still produced in the same style. Granted the Zeldas, Marios, Metal Gears, FPS games, et cetera, look vastly superior today than they did in the mid-90s, but the core gameplay and artistic style is still the same. As opposed to early console games on Atari systems, 8-bit, 16-bit systems where the games are completely unlike the games being produced today. This isn't to say that some people don't have nostalgia for the early 3d games, as nostalgia is completely subjective. However, because the new Zelda games and CoD games are quite comparable to Ocarina or GoldenEye (for example)in graphical style and gameplay, I think that makes it difficult for the average gamer who played those games in the 90s to be nostalgic for them today.

Like already said here, if there's people today that like the ugly 2D nes graphics, eventually there will be people who also like the ugly 3D from PSX/SS/N64 asking for games with that style.
It is only a matter of time before we see people asking things like a new Zelda using OoT graphics, because "all that they released after was a lot worse", and so.

It's possible to have nostalgia for anything.

As others have said, its the textures that ruin early 3D games. most PS1 games are pretty ugly. Saturn is a bit better in places but not by much. The N64 may be blurry but it's better than super low res textures stretched on to big objects with no filtering. It's like playing an early Atari 2600 game, but mapped onto polygons.

Something a lot of people don't realize though, partly because they had to watch quality 2D convert over to bad 3D, is the early 3D capable consoles with those blocky textures are very much like the early 2D consoles, the Channel F, the Atari 2600, Intellivision and so on. They both have their qualities but are obviously not favored by most vintage game goers.

It really depends on the game. For example there's games like Virtua Fighter 2, Nights, Burning Rangers, Panzer Dragoon, Sonic R, Resident Evil, Final Fantasy VII/VIII/IX, etc. that still look acceptable to be playable today. Then there's games like Tomb Raider or Twisted Metal, or even the first Metal Gear Solid that look pretty bad. The N64 I'd say has aged a little better due to it using less texture maping in most games and the filtering helps a little too. But I'd say it's aged better more so with the fact that few games have clipping and flickering polygon issues. The Blurriness though does make it a bit of a toss up.

Honestly I'd rate those three consoles as follows:

-The absolute best of the Saturn will trump the best on the PS1 and N64 as far as visual clarity and acceptability goes. I'm talking about games like VF2, DoA, Grandia, etc.
-The best on the N64 will trump the Average Saturn game and most if not all PS1 games as far as clarity and acceptability goes. I'm talking about games like Star Fox 64 vs Panzer Dragoon, Mario 64 vs Sonic R and Tomb Raider, etc.
-PS1 is going to trump the Saturn in special effects like Lighting and Transparency, but in overall picture clarity it looks like complete ass most of the time due to lots of full screen dithering in most games. This is extremely apparent when using component or RGB.

So basically the N64 and the Saturn will flip between spots 1 and 2 depending on the game. The PS1 for the most part is going to be in last and maybe swapping with the Saturn if there's a game that uses lots of transparencies or lighting.

I dunno about "Final Fantasy 7". Someone posted a screen shot of the (3D) characters, and they looked pretty fugly.

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Originally Posted by Rusty Venture

I dunno about "Final Fantasy 7". Someone posted a screen shot of the (3D) characters, and they looked pretty fugly.

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I was thinking of the battle scene characters. The Map characters are laughably bad.

In battle though they look like this:

http://www.mobygames.com/images/shot...in-a-rocky.png

Which I'd categorize as acceptable.

Yes. Absolutely. @ OP

Im nostalgic to games like DooM and duke3d, not console 3d though.

Yes!

Now I feel like playing Hard Drivin'.

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Originally Posted by maxi

It is only a matter of time before we see people asking things like a new Zelda using OoT graphics,
because "all that they released after was a lot worse", and so.

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http://www.galaxys4-kopen.nl/wp-cont...al-reality.jpg

Yeah this enormous high res virtual world is pretty nice,
but I still feel nostalgic for those ugly PS4 graphics!

When watching or playing early 3D games, I tend to place my mind within the time period in which they were released, in look for the good qualities in their graphics. Take the original "Virtua Fighter" for example. The gaming media were knocking it for its blocky, "dated" graphics as early as 1995. Despite that, I still marvel at the game's fluid animation and decently constructed character models (the coin-op that is, not so much the Saturn version), and could see why this game blew people away 20 years ago. "Metal Gear Solid" may have jagged, pixelly and warped textures out the ass, but I can appreciate how Konami tried working within the PS1's 3D limitations to construct detailed enviroments, and how they stretched the hardware to its limits doing so.

Rep me dammit, you know I make a good argument. ;)

Just to clarify, I still enjoy quite a few early 3D games on the PSX and N64, it's just I have no desire to return to 32-64 bit graphics (unlike 8-bit - 32 bit 2D graphics), and don't really have special memories of those specific graphics. It's more about the games themselves to me. I thought the graphics were good when I was a kid, but as time goes on I see they've aged worse and worse, unlike 8-bit - 32 bit 2D, which I think still looks very nice.

It's a shame too, because I have fond memories of games like Super Mario 64 and such, but if I hadn't played those games since I was a kid, I'd have been very disappointed in the graphics because I'd remember them looking better than they actually did.

On the other hand, my older brother says he never thought early PSX-N64 games looked as good as the stuff that came before it.

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Originally Posted by maxi

ugly 2D nes graphics

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Wut.

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

I was thinking of the battle scene characters. The Map characters are laughably bad.

In battle though they look like this:

http://www.mobygames.com/images/shot...in-a-rocky.png

Which I'd categorize as acceptable.

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The map characters must have been the ones posted.

The small image does make those characters look acceptable though. ;)

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Originally Posted by NeoVamp

Can you tell me where they found them? I'd like some early 3D memories too!

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Hey! It's not nice to pick on retards!

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Originally Posted by Rusty Venture

The map characters must have been the ones posted.

The small image does make those characters look acceptable though. ;)

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The game pretty much uses really low polygon super deformed models for the map segments and then switches to higher quality more realistic proportioned models for the battles.

This video does it a bit more justice than that screen shot:



Basically if you ever hear someone ramble on about how revolutionary and great FF7's graphics were, you should assume they are talking about the battle graphics and then punch them in the face.

Oh, gotta go check that new board :D

I guess why there's not much love for early-3D is because they didn't look quite appealing. Some NES games looked better than some early-polygonal games.
It's just like the Atari 2600, it was like the ''beta'' of the era.

Short answer: YES!

Long answer: PSX/Saturn/N64 era stuff isn't even "early" 3D, it's just early mainstream mass-market popularized 3D. Early 3D is stuff from 1993 and earlier, when it was either totally niche and obscure (ie 80s) or starting to creep into the mainstream (early 90s), with 1993/94 being the threshold years of it really pushing into mainstream. (which, incedentally, also marked the preiod of multimedia-heavy games pushing into the mainstream . . . Wing Commander III is kind of monumental in both respects: a truly high quality game with texture mapped polygonal 3D action/combat -space sim- gameplay with high-end multimedia elements worked in as dynamic interactive cutscenes, a branching storyline, good writing and directing for an amazing cast of actors, etc)

Just on the other end of that 3D game threshold you have the likes of Star Fox, Doom, and X-Wing in 1993 (and a smattering of very early Jaguar and 3DO titles), and before that a lot of more obscure and/or less compelling 3D or pseudo 3D on consoles and computers going back to the 8-bit days. (including pseudo 3D, you've got stuff back to the VCS, but actual wireframe/polygonal 3D would be more to

Then there's the parallel developments in the Arcade scene from Atari's Hard Drivin' board games, shortly followed by Namco's high-end System 21, then Sega's Model 1, then Namco's System 22 and Sega's Model 2. (and then the handful of early 80s vector based 3D games, plus I Robot and the cancelled Last Starfighter and Air Racer games -one of the victims's of Atari Inc's collapse and the arcade market crash of the early 80s -would have been REALLY interesting if high-end 3D arcade hardware had come on the scene that much earlier though)
http://www.system16.com/hardware.php?id=921
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvYLCsmNKfE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghjjeZpoKLI




Technically, I can only say I have nostalgia for a very few early 3D games, and those were all at the tail end of the above defined "early" period (X-Wing being the foremost of those games). That said though, in terms of enjoyment and appreciation, there's a LOT of other early 3D games (and some really old ones) that I'm rather fond of, including quite a few that haven't aged that wel. :p


IMO, it's kind of like the situation for liking/enjoying early/primitive 2D arcade/console/computer games too. I love a lot of the old 70s/80s era arcade and console games (especially the multiplayer stuff), and have been facinated with it since discovering it as a little kid (got my mom's 2600 set up around 1999 or 2000 ;)). Actually, I was a bit more forgiving of the faults of those games (including some really medicore stuff like Apollo made) then do now . . . I just thought they were all pretty neat at the time.

Nintendo 64 thread? :D

http://www.zeldadungeon.net/Zelda06/...DeitysMask.jpg

I still can't get used to Playstation, Saturn, and N64 being referred to as "early 3D". "Early 3D" makes me think of Hard Drivin', Hunter for Amiga, and old PC flight sims that ran at about 5 frames per second.

That said, I definitely have some genuine fondness for 3D games on the Playstation and Saturn (N64 less so). Today, virtually all games are done the same way, only varying in precise poly count, texture quality, shaders, etc. But back then, there were all kinds of different things going on. You had your fully 3D games, but then you had 2.5D games (Pandemonium), raycasting (Doom), portal rendering (Descent), 3D models on top of bitmaps (Resident Evil), 3D models on top of FMV backgrounds (Fear Effect), 2D sprites on top of fixed polygonal backgrounds (Grandia), scaling 2D sprites in 3D environments (lots of sports games), games that were fully 3D but on rails (Panzer Dragoon), games that weren't quite on rails but on fixed pathways (Crash Bandicoot), 3D objects on top of a flat plane with a fixed overhead view (Mass Destruction), a collection of 3D objects in empty space (Colony Wars), 2D games with "3D" visual effects (Skeleton Warriors), games that take place in a fixed tube (Nanotek Warrior), games that used the isometric 3/4 overhead view but with polygons (Dark Savior)... and then there are some games that do more than one of these things. Plus games like Guardian Heroes that aren't exactly 3D, but certainly have some depth.

I guess my point is, it's easy to dismiss something that looks like a really really primitive version of a new game, but when there is no modern equivalent, not so much. I still have a fondness for those "partly 3D" looks. (And I still have a fondness for many of those games regardless of looks -- graphics aren't everything.)

I say yes, and I say yes because there are times where I'm nostalgic for early 3D console graphics. Not all of them, mind you, just the ones that worked well enough.

For example: when Conker's Bad Fur Day was ported to the original XBox (and retitled Conker: Live and Uncut, iirc), the "better" graphics weren't better, IMO. Sure, there was "fur shading" on Conker, everything was higher res with much higher poly counts and better lighting effects, etc., but part of what worked for the N64 Conker, IMO, was the more jagged and simpler look. It was a parody of N64 platformer games, really, and it still works best, oddly enough, if it looks like an N64 era platformer, simpler polys and textures, and blurrier textures at that.

On PS1, I still think the Crash Bandicoot games look pretty good, and it doesn't hurt that although things have gotten "clearer" in the newer Crash games, they still retain a similar art style and gameplay design. Mega Man Legends still looks pretty good, as do Spyro and something like Fear Effect. Heck, I think the more "cartoony", the better such games hold up. I don't need ultra high res or spectacular effects for cartoony or anime style game graphics. Maybe that's why I'm not as interested in Wind Waker HD. Stuff like Metal Gear Solid, though, I really have no real nostalgia for, as they just didn't look all that great to me even back then.

It's a bit different on Saturn, I suppose. Something like, say, Burning Rangers I think oddly intriguing, graphics and art direction-wise, even though it kinda errs toward that gritty "realistic" territory (albeit more colorful than the ones on PS1), but I find myself having more nostalgia for stuff that looks like NiGHTS and even something like Bug! and the Panzer Dragoon games (it's the segmented, almost centipede-like way the dragons look that pique my interest).

I have some odd nostalgia for Jaguar 3D games, specifically Iron Soldier, with it's block builder graphics, and Missile Command 3D (that VR mode!). Also Tempest 2K, I suppose.

3DO as well. Big time. I have more nostalgia for the first Alone in the Dark games on DOS and 3DO than I do for the original Resident Evil (the game that borrowed HEAVILY from AitD). I still break out Star Fighter every now and again because everything is so delightully tiled and cartoony and the music is aces, and destroying the environment is such fun.

I guess it's all about the games not attempting to look "realistic", look more "cartoony" instead, and just being good games overall. That's probably why I don't have much nostalgia for the SNES SFX 3D poly games (even Star Fox) - those just weren't very good games at all. I dig Virtua Racing Genesis as a tech demo for SVP, but it really doesn't control well (thank goodness for the reintroduction of analog control to consoles the next gen). I don't really like any of the 32X 3D polygon driven titles because they weren't very good and not cartoony enough for me.

Still, I have way more nostalgia for older 2D games. Way more. Even going as far back as the 2600 era. Stack the duck looking dragons from 2600's Adventure next to any character or vehicle from the games I listed, and I'll probably gravitate toward the ducks...I mean dragons (...they really do look like ducks. Or seahorses. yeah...duck billed seahorses).

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

Basically if you ever hear someone ramble on about how revolutionary and great FF7's graphics were, you should assume they are talking about the battle graphics and then punch them in the face.

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To be honest, just mentioning "Final Fantasy 7" usually has my fist is locked and loaded.

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Originally Posted by Rusty Venture

To be honest, just mentioning "Final Fantasy 7" usually has my fist is locked and loaded.

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Same here.

I played a lot of N64/PS/SAT in my friends houses back in the day.I think that was the second best generation of gaming, only losing to the previous one.I'm a big admirer of "retro" videogames, not only because i think they're better, but also i love to see what kind of stuff the developers can pull out of their hats despite the limitations of the hardware that they are working on.
So my answer to your thread is yes.

I've been playing Panzer Dragoon for quite some time now, i absolutely love that game, including those early 3D blocky visuals; the art direction of that game is just superb. The same thing applies to the first Resident Evil( the best RE along with Code Veronica ):i think those early 3D graphics only adds up to the creepy atmosphere of the game.

ff 7 aged rather badly
last time i tried to play it i noticed the poor colors the heavy dithering and artifacting and the annoying random battles i was bored with in 30 minutes and felt no desire what so ever to continue playing

but yes i can not only be nostalgic towards early 3D gaming i can also activley still play them
ps 1 and saturn mostly ( well i would if my saturn had not died ) n64 less so

I remember a lot of early 3d PS1 games, and still think of them fondly. So yeah, I have lots of nostalgia for them.

It's possibly to have nostalgia for almost anything, I can't see why "Early 3D" games can't fit the shoe, some people that may of lived in the country when they were younger then moved to the city and for the first time in years saw some rabbit shit may get nostalgia from it. Sounds silly but it's possible. ;p
Anyway I still get very nostalgic from playing "early 3D" games such as Spyro the Dragon, for such a limited amount of polygons I believe the game still looks really good looking to this day,same goes to other games of that time such as crash bandicoot, and the later Tomb raiders. Games that went for a more cartoony and bright look still hold up nicely today, but I still get nostalgic over the not so aged well 3D graphics.

The blurry N64, the quadrilateral Saturn, the pixelated PS1.

Talk about the 5th generation graphics not being early 3D is the same that say this about the nes graphics also not being early 2D because of the 2600.
Also, the problem is that they already aged bad for today. The 4th-gen 2D (and some games from the Turbografx plus a few of the MS) are nice, and so the 3D from some games of the DC plus the rest of the 6th-gen.
2D graphics are harder to get ugly than the 3D ones, but no one knows until when.