PS2 vs Dreamcast Graphics

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09-21-2019, 10:03 PM
Cloofoofoo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yharnamresident

"41985 vertices" "13995 polygons" that ratio is not right. That screenshot is likely 38,000-40,000 polygons. There must be tons of seams missing in that mesh capture.

feel free to check it out. This was done by the emulator itself and not an external tool. Iam pretty sure its right,besides the clipping theres no holes. Another way to text is find it on the gamecube and compare. ITs also on that system. Its most likely based off dynamite baseball which pretty much looks identical.
09-21-2019, 10:12 PM
gamevet

Quote:

Originally Posted by SegaAMD

I asked because I really don't remember playing a grass game on DC (I'll check later).

This is part of my texture research, DC uses many green textures that represent grass, but in ps2 / gcn they use detailed grass instead of textures. This somehow counts as an advantage for ps2 in the texture department.

The Forest area in PSO has large tropical plants that are drawn with polygons and sway in the wind. There is tall grass that you have to walk through to find hidden crates, as well. I was more impressed with the area that has a transpatent floor with lava flowing below you. Those were some nice looking textures.

Quote:

I don't think PSO looks anything like Dinasty Warriors 2, In some points, PSO even looks nicer.

I'm saying that the game that you had posted appears to be Dynasty Warriors.

*Edit* It looks like you've just changed to video to the North American version.
09-21-2019, 10:16 PM
Yharnamresident

Quote:

Originally Posted by gamevet

The Forest area in PSU has large tropical plants that are drawn with polygons and sway in the wind. There is tall grass that you have to walk through to find hidden crates, as well. I was more impressed with the area that has a transpatent floor with lava flowing below you. Those were some nice looking textures.

Could you find a video and time stamp for those of us who never played the game?
09-21-2019, 10:22 PM
SegaAMD

Quote:

Originally Posted by gamevet

I'm saying that the game that you had posted appears to be Dynasty Warriors.

*Edit* It looks like you've just changed to video to the North American version.

my fault, that game was Samurai Warriors 2 from 2005, I edited there and put Dynasty Warriors 2, 2000.
09-21-2019, 10:30 PM
Yharnamresident

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cloofoofoo

feel free to check it out. This was done by the emulator itself and not an external tool. Iam pretty sure its right,besides the clipping theres no holes. Another way to text is find it on the gamecube and compare. ITs also on that system. Its most likely based off dynamite baseball which pretty much looks identical.

If you look closely at the character, you see hes made of quads and triangles. Either the developer used a mix of quads and triangles, or the seams are missing. So yes looking at the GameCube version could help us determine. Personally I got no Dolphin on my computer yet.
09-21-2019, 10:41 PM
Cloofoofoo

Quote:

. If you look closely at the character, you see hes made of quads and triangles. Either the developer used a mix of quads and triangles, or the seams are missing. So yes looking at the GameCube version could help us determine. Personally I got no Dolphin on my computer yet.

It's all triangles. This is just object mode in blender. Not sure if you're familiar with it. It's pure triangles when I look at the wireframe. Pcsx2 always outputs pure triangles. You should know that. I use object mode plus shading to get a better look.
09-21-2019, 10:51 PM
SegaAMD

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cloofoofoo

But making grass could have been/was one of its strength/touted feature set. It doesnt waste time/bandwidth with punch through polygons and treats it almost the same as opaque. It just seems like this strength was not thoroughly exploited(dreamcast may have had unique features not used at all). Thats what i was trying to explain using the tech demos. The second screenshot tech demo can have upto 81,000 polygons worth of trees in the frame @ 11 fps. Iam pretty sure that could have been adjusted to be used in a real game situation.

I have already posted this argument on previous pages; hardware has capabilities, anti aliasing, bump mapping, grass, nice polygons count, these are individual features of the hardware.
I believe things change when it comes to a full game, because choices must be made to balance resources.
for example: Dreamcast has more than 100 AAA games, few used AA, Bump Mapping was only seen in those shenmue coins, and the grass appears in Skies of Arcadia in a limited scene.
if my thesis is correct, so that explain why Namco used grass on that stage of the Tekken Tag as a ps2 feature showcase.

https://i.imgur.com/GxA2Zhx.jpg
09-21-2019, 10:58 PM
gamevet

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yharnamresident

Could you find a video and time stamp for those of us who never played the game?

There's like 4 levels to the forest area. It would take some time to find the area with the crates hidden behind the grass. This 1st area showcases shrubery that you can walk through and it will cover your lower legs. It has large tropical plants that casts shadows as they sway, and large trees overhead that cast shadows. There's even moments where you'll see God Rays coming through the trees.
09-21-2019, 11:00 PM
Yharnamresident

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cloofoofoo

It's all triangles. This is just object mode in blender. Not sure if you're familiar with it. It's pure triangles when I look at the wireframe. Pcsx2 always outputs pure triangles. You should know that. I use object mode plus shading to get a better look.

Look at his right thigh, you can see quads unless its some kind of illusion.

Anyways I'll be back in a couple days, I feel super sick and lack the focus for forum posting.
09-21-2019, 11:01 PM
Cloofoofoo

Quote:

Originally Posted by SegaAMD

I have already posted this argument on previous pages; hardware has capabilities, anti aliasing, bump mapping, grass, nice polygons count, these are individual features of the hardware.
I believe things change when it comes to a full game, because choices must be made to balance resources.for example: Dreamcast's more than 100 AAA games, few used AA, Bump Mapping was only seen in those shenmue coins very limited use, and the grass appears in Skies of Arcadia in a limited scene.
if my thesis is correct, so that explain why Namco used grass on that stage of the Tekken Tag as a ps2 feature showcase.

Actually... bump mapping was used for the stages in rayman 2 and on the wall in the last revelation. Its not very visible because the light sources dont move. So it was used in more than just the coins. Redream made a big deal of this being supported on the emulator. your theses might need revision lol. It might just be down to lack of experience in bump mapping/normal mapping back in 1999.

no bumpping:
https://redream.io/img/progress-repo..._nobumpmap.jpg

bumpmapping:
https://redream.io/img/progress-repo...an_bumpmap.jpg
09-21-2019, 11:04 PM
Cloofoofoo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yharnamresident

Look at his right thigh, you can see quads unless its some kind of illusion.

Anyways I'll be back in a couple days, I feel super sick and lack the focus for forum posting.

I hope you feel better. Get well soon.

Also look. its all triangulated.
https://i.ibb.co/GF3Dmdk/triangles.jpg
09-22-2019, 01:22 AM
Leynos

https://i.imgur.com/cuc0SnF.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/IKZbZzh.png
https://i.imgur.com/xdQGRch.png
09-22-2019, 01:40 AM
Cloofoofoo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yharnamresident

Look at his right thigh, you can see quads unless its some kind of illusion.

Anyways I'll be back in a couple days, I feel super sick and lack the focus for forum posting.

While Theres no holes seems you were right about the polygon count being screwy. Well half right. Its no where near 40ks.Its pretty much 20- 30k less triangles than homerun kings. Home runkings just tramples it(goes over 85K tris per frame @ peak.) In any case I apologize and concede this one to you.

gekitou GC - primitive 29,131 + 2,798 = 31,929 tris per frame x 60 fps = 1.9 million polygons.

https://i.ibb.co/VJbZvBH/gekitougc.jpg
09-22-2019, 06:29 AM
Team Andromeda

Quote:

Originally Posted by SegaAMD

man i miss these days, searching here for textures, I found a ps2 release game, locked 60fps, high polygonal count, lots of flicker and almost no jaggies (compared to Ridge Racer V and the PS2 version of Grandia 2) Does any Dreamcast game have grass?

I don't know why you ask me, much less using Dynasty Warriors 2 - which for me didn't look great. It may be using more polygons that a DC game and some of the special attack effects you can forget on the DC. But the game runs in the PS Trademark usual low Res mode and features the typcial blurry PS2 textures, seems to have a lack of AA and so gives you that PS2 washed outlook. I was more impressed with Bujingai on the PS2 which to me, not only looked amazing, but was amazing to play thanks to its stunning combat

About Grass Its been a long time, But I'm sure there were some blades in Sword of the Berserk, there was the odd bit of grass in Soul Fighter (looks amazing, but plays like crap) and also Rayman II and quite a bit in Sonic Adv II and even the odd bit in Sonic Adv and also in D2, Grandia II, Skies of Arcdia and most prob quite a lot more.
09-22-2019, 06:36 AM
Team Andromeda

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cloofoofoo

It may play better than sega wow's game( debatable, I prefer the 2k1 arcade roots as its far more fun.

I don't agree. I was so looking forward to WSB 2k1 on the DC given it was coming from AM#1 who made the fantastic WSB games on the Saturn and the game looked stunning too. When I got the game I just felt it was too much the Arcade. I didn't feel in control and the game felt too simplified for me. 2K2 featured a much better fielding system imo and I thought it looked better.

I have to say mind, Am#1/Wow was awesome on the DC with some amazing look games and lot fun

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