PS2 vs Dreamcast Graphics

Not like Kojima-san to talk out of his Ass.

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Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

Not like Kojima-san to talk out of his Ass.

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Yes, i dislike all the trash kojima says. But in this case iam inclined to believe him in fhis specific case.

Metal gear solid had a slew of post process effects ranging from depth of field, motion blur, radial blur, environment mapped refraction, Gaussian blur and usually all of them on in one frame during cutscenes.

All this on a machine from 1994 , let us not forget the dc never layered all those in one go despite being infinitely power compared to it. And pc didnt do the refractive effect till embossed environment bump mapping close to the 2000.

So while hes a blowhard and mgs probably doesnt do more polys than tobal 2 it still pushes the psx to max in a different way.

I was looking at the mechanics of the games in 1996 and Crash, Mario 64 and Tomb Raider launched trends, but speaking only of Crash and Mario 64, Crash used a level design that was very innovative and very copied throughout the fifth generation, Lilo and Stitch , Pepsiman, Donald Duck Goin Quake are '' Crash Bandicoot-Like ''.

So, Super Mario 64, I could see that the scenarios on the Nintendo 64 are bigger than those on the PS1 due to some features of the N64 hardware, the memory and ironically the cartridge that reads up to 100x faster than the CD-rom.

On PS1 there are many 3D platform games but they have a smaller scope than those seen in Banjo, Mario and Conker.

Thinking about it I decided to look in the sixth generation for a game that reminded me of N64 games, I looked for Kao the Kangaroo and he uses Crash-style mechanics, I looked for Sonic and it has his own characteristics, that's when I found Evil Twin Cypriens chronicles PS2 / DC it's the closest thing to Banjo Kazooi and Conker in terms of scope.

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Originally Posted by Cloofoofoo

Yes, i dislike all the trash kojima says. But in this case iam inclined to believe him in fhis specific case..

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Don't get me wrong, I've always said that 2 of the PS games, I would have hated to see on the Saturn, would have been Vagrant Story and MGS Since they just looked on another level. I was quite impressed with Last Bronx motion blur and some of the Saturn games that used the VDP2 to fake environment mapping mind. But 115%? Just a little bit of kojima-san crap.

The most impressive PS games I saw were Ridge Racer 4 ( A stunning technical achievement) and Vagrant Story. And to be fair to Ken, MGS was not out at the time of the Edge feature

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Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

Don't get me wrong, I've always said that 2 of the PS games, I would have hated to see on the Saturn, would have been Vagrant Story and MGS Since they just looked on another level. I was quite impressed with Last Bronx motion blur and some of the Saturn games that used the VDP2 to fake environment mapping mind. But 115%? Just a little bit of kojima-san crap.

The most impressive PS games I saw were Ridge Racer 4 ( A stunning technical achievement) and Vagrant Story. And to be fair to Ken, MGS was not out at the time of the Edge feature

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Yeah of course. Percentage of use thing is bullshit. Devs use all available tools, technically it's always 100 percent. Tools can improves allowing more room for graphics.

I am just saying polygons isnt always the defining thing of system power. With such limited fillrate iam surprise they were able to do depth of field, motion blur, radial blur, refraction while maintaining a good polygon count games like mgs.

I always thought Tekken 3 looked amazing on the PSX. Feel that arcade to home conversion anticipation is lost on new gamers.

Since this is the last 1.5 months of me posting in this thread, I really gotta start working on my backlog.


So I'm working on Ready 2 Rumble Boxing: Round 2 PS2 Vs. Dreamcast Full Comparison. Its gonna have fancy post-processed logos.

https://i.imgur.com/0OKYNnv.png

https://i.imgur.com/UU1TRHS.png


So Cloofoofoo and SegaAMD, let me know what I should look for while doing the comparison. Also perhaps TA and Segata.

Also Cloofoofoo I already found that framebuffer effect.

I like for you to compare

Dead Or Alive 2
Maken X
Rayman 2
Alone in the Dark IV
Code Veronica

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Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

I like for you to compare

Dead Or Alive 2
Maken X
Rayman 2
Alone in the Dark IV
Code Veronica

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I could do a couple of those. Also the problem with comparing Dead or Alive 2, is thats been done already a huge amount of times. Its probably the most compared PS2-Dreamcast multiplat.

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Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

I like for you to compare

Dead Or Alive 2
Maken X
Rayman 2
Alone in the Dark IV
Code Veronica

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Maken x should be a cool comparison. The character (third person) models arent that much higher than the first person models. The first person arms range from 700 tris to about 2200 tris. The full body rabge from 1000 to close to 3000 tris. Extracted those off the disc, was surprised to see how close it was.

The ps2 cutscenes appear more dynamic but they are pre recorded and not real time odd enough while the dc cutscenes are all real time.

Another game one could compare is roommania 203 ps2 vs dc. That would be interesting.

Evil twin Cypriens chronicles (N64 style like)
Maken x
Head Hunter
Quake 3 arena
Federation vs Zeon
Le mans 24 hours
Fyr fighters
Gunbird 2
Trizeal
Silent scope
psyvariar 2
conflict zone
Death Crimson ox
Castle of shikigami
Radirgy
Chaos filed
typing of Dead

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Originally Posted by Cloofoofoo

Maken x should be a cool comparison. The character (third person) models arent that much higher than the first person models. The first person arms range from 700 tris to about 2200 tris. The full body rabge from 1000 to close to 3000 tris. Extracted those off the disc, was surprised to see how close it was.

The ps2 cutscenes appear more dynamic but they are pre recorded and not real time odd enough while the dc cutscenes are all real time.

Another game one could compare is roommania 203 ps2 vs dc. That would be interesting.

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Originally Posted by SegaAMD

Evil twin Cypriens chronicles (N64 style like)
Maken x
Head Hunter
Quake 3 arena
Federation vs Zeon
Le mans 24 hours
Fyr fighters
Gunbird 2
Trizeal
Silent scope
psyvariar 2
conflict zone
Death Crimson ox
Castle of shikigami
Radirgy
Chaos filed
typing of Dead

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Guys I still gotta finish my first comparison, Ready 2 Rumble Boxing: Round 2. Its 66% done. Do you have any suggestions for what I should look for?

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Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

All I will say is games like Sonic Adv, Rally II getting pushed back, NEC having issues with the Power VR line, the DC launch should have been pushed back till Feb or March 1999. When SEGA had more titles read and more importantly 500,000 DC systems ready for the launch. That's to look over how SEGA GT and Sega Rally II needed to be so much more better and also use online head to head gameplay

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And also considering the Saturn had a small amount of life left in Japan.

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Originally Posted by SegaAMD

I'm sorry but it's not; 80-90k it's a standard game on PS1, see Tobal N1 and you'll find 120k, the fighting game Iron Blood claims to have 225k. they are to be congratulated for getting 3k polygons per frame as it is an early game.

but I would like to measure PS1 games although it has a limit of 3k per scene at 30fps 2k at 60fps. I only know of a game that reaches 4k polygons per scene (MGS cutscene) the N64 makes from 1K to 7K per scene, but in contrast the frame rate drops to less than 20fps, which at the end much more the same.
Sega Saturn has a limit of 2k quads per frame which generates a maximum of 60k, it seems little but if we convert to triangles it gives 2x, 120k, I think that only Sonic R can handle this count with a stable frame rate.

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I doubt 80,000-90,000 PPS is average, but to be fair I haven't looked at many PS1 games yet. This will be one of my side tasks.

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Originally Posted by Cloofoofoo

Well these are the models straight off the files and not tampered by things that could affect it like being use in a game and capturing it in vram like 3dxripper does.

You might not like it but these are the real assets just like they were exported to game format by the devs. It doesn't get more direct than this and I DARE say your results with the ripper is wrong, period. The average main chracter model for the dreamcast is around 1,500 to 2,000. As a matter of fact alot of dc games made exclusively have main character models of 1000 to 1200 ( skies of arcadia, illbleed, the ring , tri colore crise and alot alot more). Its the exceptional games or games who focus more on characters than anything else that make characters 2500 tris and up. ( d2, carrier, toukon retsuden 4, blue stinger, seventh cross, spiderman 2000 and many more). Ove done alot of file extractions over the years.

3d ripper is horribly glitch and does not reflect what the asssets held in geometry accurately, which is all i care about, not crying if the dreamcast figures are too low.

What makes it even more obvious its wrong is how easy it is to extract dreamcast geometry assets from the files on the discs and do a simple check. You should seriously try it and stop relying on emulator abd simply use tools to dig through the discs and extract files.

Also your relying on an old ass review as opposed to hacks made specifically to modify gamecode like physics and frame rate and camera fov? Theres just no way to get through to you so we will have to let it go.

Btw 400 to 800 tris for the main focus character on ps1 isnt unheard of despite the tight polygon budget. Not only fighting game went this high.

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I will reply to this with future posts.

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Originally Posted by zyrobs

But most importantly: it was a LAUNCH TITLE. It's so early, that the executable on the CD is even lacking the SLPS serial code in it. It was something like the first or second released game on the console.

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I remember seeing "January 1995", even if its a launch game or not its still very early.

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Originally Posted by zyrobs

And the game had plenty of charisma, they just screwed it all up in the English ports by changing all the voice actors. In the original version the characters all sounded bad ass. Also, the game had kick ass music (it still used CD Audio too).

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It just felt slow pace and clunky. But I didn't spend too much time with it.

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Originally Posted by stu

You're actually quoting a moron like ABF as proof of something?? WT actual fuck!:fail::fail::bs:

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I was hoping you guys wouldn't notice that, consider this an inside joke.

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Originally Posted by Virtua Hunter

Since we are in topic, have you ever tried to compare the poly count of VF3 on DC and the Model 3 version? It could be interesting.

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I tried with Model 3 before, but theres really no way of getting polycounts.

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Originally Posted by Virtua Hunter

Sega should've choose a defensive strategy, the first time they were excused because everyone understimated Sony during the 32bit, but the second time you already knew your enemy...

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Yes Sony had tons of momentum going for them.

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Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

I expected it does well, but I thought with SEGA and Nintendo upping their game, it would have hard a harder time, but even with MS in the battle. SONY went on to sell even more

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This is what you gotta do,

Dreamcast/GameCube/Xbox combined sales(55 million) x 3 = PS2 sales(160 million).

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Originally Posted by Cloofoofoo

Yes, i dislike all the trash kojima says. But in this case iam inclined to believe him in fhis specific case.

Metal gear solid had a slew of post process effects ranging from depth of field, motion blur, radial blur, environment mapped refraction, Gaussian blur and usually all of them on in one frame during cutscenes.

All this on a machine from 1994 , let us not forget the dc never layered all those in one go despite being infinitely power compared to it. And pc didnt do the refractive effect till embossed environment bump mapping close to the 2000.

So while hes a blowhard and mgs probably doesnt do more polys than tobal 2 it still pushes the psx to max in a different way.

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Yes its like the Burnout 3 of the PS1. Burnout 3 has average polycounts but its absolutely loaded with effects.

PS2 sold 155 million. Your point is solid but a minor correction.

EDIT on further inspection. No one fucking knows. Some sources say 155. Others say 158. So fuck me. Ignore this post.