PS2 vs Dreamcast Graphics

A very underrated PS2 game is Crash Bandicoot 2001 is underrated in the recognition of the technical qualities because in sales the game was a relative success, the game runs in high resolution, the details, colors and textures are above average, loading times are a bit long. Traveller's tales managed to maintain and evolve the series. I measured the terrible GCN version and the game run at an average of 100k polygons per frame in the early stages, it seems that even with simpler graphics the version runs at low fps. It's a game I recommend.

it's the 5th best selling platform game on the PS2 behind the first Jak game and the three Ratchet and Clank games. Crash warped and Crash bandicoot are the 5th 6th best selling on PS1 with about 7M each.

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Originally Posted by SegaAMD

A game having individual fingers rendered is a sign of detailing and high polygonal counting, cartoonish games really manage to make separate fingers using 700 polygons, looking at the characters in The Ring I thought it had more than 700-1k polygons, so they with 800 polygons is very impressive.

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Ehh not really, tee off golf on the dc they have sphere hands and the highest character model for that game is 6,000 triangles by itself! The ring, skies of arcadia ,illbleed have characters that around 1000 triangles despite the wildly different art styles. You cant simply go off on fingers then bark dreamcast sux. In alot of games they actually used considerable amount of polygons but seriously misused them... badly. It really is how well they wanted to define their models. Heres a few examples( extracted assets off disc):

for maken x kei cutscene models is one of the highest in the game(3k tris), this model is usually 2-3 other characters on the scene keep in mind:
https://i.ibb.co/kg4MpYc/makenxkei.jpg

Also from maken x hakke brown. Hes around 1.9k tris for his boss model and 1.3k tris for his player model. Its very close:
https://i.ibb.co/cX6xFLy/makenxbrownboss.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/YT35XDK/makenxbrownplayer.jpg

The final boss, geist is close to 7K tris :
https://i.ibb.co/dP381HH/makenxgeist.jpg

From the ring the player character is 1.1k tris despite how nice the model looks:
https://i.ibb.co/NxjX9nh/theringplayer.jpg

Also from the ring sadako is only 800 tris:
https://i.ibb.co/hgM5qWb/theringsadako.jpg

Laura from d2 2K for the game play model and close to 4K for the cutscene model. Because of good modeling they look nearly indistinguishable as the both have the face and hands modeled well :
https://i.ibb.co/WVgt9VR/d2-lauragame.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/nL7h227/d2-laurahi1.jpg

Gameplay model is the same as cutscene models in blue stinger, here is elliot in his mutated form which is 3k tris:
https://i.ibb.co/tB0yC0Z/bluesting-mutantelliot.png

I could go on and on but my point is dont confuse art style for the actual modeling. You will most likely be wrong. Also alot of the game were early from 1999, imagine is the dc had gone on to reap the benefit of improved skills the artist gained later down the line. A slight comparison gameplay of characters from the bouncer are 3k tris and if I remember right( foggy memory on ffx) final fantasy 10 gameplay models for the battle field were also 3k.

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Originally Posted by SegaAMD

A very underrated PS2 game is Crash Bandicoot 2001 is underrated in the recognition of the technical qualities because in sales the game was a relative success, the game runs in high resolution, the details, colors and textures are above average, loading times are a bit long. Traveller's tales managed to maintain and evolve the series.

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Yes its a very underrated game and it makes great use of the Hardware. Just the screen res and blurry look let the game down. Devil May Cry also looks amazing on the system, that was one of the 1st games to show the power and polygon advantage over the DC (for me) along with ESPN Track and Field (shame about the jaggies).

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Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

Yes its a very underrated game and it makes great use of the Hardware. Just the screen res and blurry look let the game down. Devil May Cry also looks amazing on the system, that was one of the 1st games to show the power and polygon advantage over the DC (for me) along with ESPN Track and Field (shame about the jaggies).

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I looked it over on pcsx2, crash bandicoot is definitely beyond what the Dreamcast can do at 60 fps. But it's not 100k like he claims . it seems to top out at 60k Tris per frame which is around 4 mpps at 60 fps. Technically at 30 fps it would be doable on the DC if you cut back on the effects. Kinda like those 30 fps platforming PSP games.

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Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

Yes its a very underrated game and it makes great use of the Hardware. Just the screen res and blurry look let the game down.).

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yes, but it doesn’t have low resolution, it’s the same resolution as Dreamcast without the vga box, 480i, what made you weird is the quality of the textures, I’m almost sure that the PS2 textures use some kind of PBR technique and in the Dreamcast doesn't have this, I am not saying that it is PBR I am saying that there is some effect applied on the textures creating this blurry look.


@Cloofoofoo I measured here at GCN and it was 60k to 100k I don't remember the point but it was between 6:30 and 6:50.

https://youtu.be/9dfALIAY54s

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Originally Posted by SegaAMD

yes, but it doesn’t have low resolution, it’s the same resolution as Dreamcast without the vga box, 480i, what made you weird is the quality of the textures, I’m almost sure that the PS2 textures use some kind of PBR technique and in the Dreamcast doesn't have this, I am not saying that it is PBR I am saying that there is some effect applied on the textures creating this blurry look.


@Cloofoofoo I measured here at GCN and it was 60k to 100k I don't remember the point but it was between 6:30 and 6:50.

https://youtu.be/9dfALIAY54s

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60k wasnt the minimum on the ps2, 8k tris was for the frame. On average it runs 55k tris per frame spiking up to 60k. Iam not on the pc otherwise i would show my screen captures.

Pbr? Physically based rendering? No. The walls/floors are modeled in pretty high detail so that you can see cracks tiles. Pretty crazy.

The blurryness seems to come from the fact the depth of field seems erratic, its very close to the camera to the point it even blurs past the player character at times.

480i is still very much half the verticle resolution.

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Originally Posted by Cloofoofoo

Pbr? Physically based rendering? No. The walls/floors are modeled in pretty high detail so that you can see cracks tiles. Pretty crazy.

The blurryness seems to come from the fact the depth of field seems erratic, its very close to the camera to the point it even blurs past the player character at times.

480i is still very much half the verticle resolution.

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I have two questions, which Dreamcast games use depth of field?

Which great PS2 games don't use depth of field? I ask because I will make some comparatives later.

crash resolution is 640x448i full PS2 Buffer Dreamcast games are 640x480i, only 32 vertical lines 16 on top 16 on bottom, insignificant difference, Dreamcast 480p need a vga box, extra equipment.

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Originally Posted by SegaAMD

I have two questions, which Dreamcast games use depth of field?

Which great PS2 games don't use depth of field? I ask because I will make some comparatives later.

crash resolution is 640x448i full PS2 Buffer Dreamcast games are 640x480i, only 32 vertical lines 16 on top 16 on bottom, insignificant difference, Dreamcast 480p need a vga box, extra equipment.

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Yeah? Then you do know that the framebuffer for 448i is 224p pretty much right? Not full like you claim but half frame. While 95% of dc games that do 480i also do 480p. Its the standard for dc while ps2 is pretty much always half frame with the exception of a handful of games that even try to real 448p. Admit it and let it go. Resolution wasnt really the ps2 forte. Just like textures.

No dreamcast game does depth of field, they faked it for sports jam during the shoot the hoops section i suspect by using mipmaps in a strange way.
Depth of field on sega naomi was spikers battle during the intro at 60fps.

Ps2 had a bunch of games from early to late gen that didbt use depth of field. Youre gonna have to do research on that. Should be easy enough.

I see you ignored the model comparison to show you to differentiate between art style and actual polygon count, you only mention things when it suits your dc sux narrative.

I'm gonna aim for March 12th for my Ready 2 Rumble Boxing: Round 2 comparison. 90% done.

Also I'll be doing my multiquotes in this thread in a few moments.

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Originally Posted by Cloofoofoo

Yeah? Then you do know that the framebuffer for 448i is 224p pretty much right? Not full like you claim but half frame. While 95% of dc games that do 480i also do 480p. Its the standard for dc while ps2 is pretty much always half frame with the exception of a handful of games that even try to real 448p. Admit it and let it go. Resolution wasnt really the ps2 forte. Just like textures.

No dreamcast game does depth of field, they faked it for sports jam during the shoot the hoops section i suspect by using mipmaps in a strange way.
Depth of field on sega naomi was spikers battle during the intro at 60fps.

Ps2 had a bunch of games from early to late gen that didbt use depth of field. Youre gonna have to do research on that. Should be easy enough.

I see you ignored the model comparison to show you to differentiate between art style and actual polygon count, you only mention things when it suits your dc sux narrative.

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Gran Turismo 4 runs at 720p/1080i. I believe Tourist Trophy might as well.

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Originally Posted by gamevet

Gran Turismo 4 runs at 720p/1080i. I believe Tourist Trophy might as well.

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Yes iam aware of that but its more of hack if i remember right. I ma not sure of how its done but it might be an upscaled resolution and not truly 720p/1080i natively.

Might be upscaled 540p upscaled by software or some sort half frame thing.

1080i on PS2 GT4, Tourist Trophy, Valkyrei Profile 2, NHL 2004, Jackass But that res is fake just a upscaling.

So we can throw that narrative out of a blurry PS2, since this visual blurry is generated by the advanced filters of the system, Depth of Field, film grain, and I imagine there must be others.

I have already posted on this topic that the PS2 can generate clean visuals in a significant number of games, clean visuals depends a lot on the art of the game too.

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Originally Posted by SegaAMD

1080i on PS2 GT4, Tourist Trophy, Valkyrei Profile 2, NHL 2004, Jackass But that res is fake just a upscaling.

So we can throw that narrative out of a blurry PS2, since this visual blurry is generated by the advanced filters of the system, Depth of Field, film grain, and I imagine there must be others.

I have already posted on this topic that the PS2 can generate clean visuals in a significant number of games, clean visuals depends a lot on the art of the game too.

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While i agree with you there we disagree on whats better higher rez vs better color depth of textures. Maken shao vs maken x illustrates this , ps2 the textures stand out more but you can literally the pixel blocking on the texture due to lack of color depth vs the slightly blurry dc version but smoother looking texture. Also the texture filtering plus mimap ( which ps2 usually dosnt do) can lead to that.

Film grain, motion blur and others was done on the dc aswell, only depth of field was lacking.

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Originally Posted by Cloofoofoo

You must really dislike skies of arcadia then. In its generation its always remembered fondly with good reason too,good game, great effects. Konami had no real intent to support the dc plain and simple. Air force delta was the most serious game they did on the dc. They cancelled this game and zone of the enders on the dc.

This game while amusing its still pretty low tier for an rpg i would say, probably time stalkers is better.

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I haven't even tried Skies of Arcadia. But I already know its not gonna be that graphically impressive because of all the streaming it has to do.

Also it just doesn't make much sense because Konami did PS2/Dreamcast multiplats after this RPG game was released.

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Originally Posted by SegaAMD

I would like you to measure the polygonal count of Street Fighter ex3 on Boss stage, temple stage and canyon stage with 4 chars on the screen at the same time, it must exceed 2M pps.

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It hits 2 million PPS but doesn't exceed it.

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Originally Posted by SegaAMD

Ephemeral Fantasia is beyond the capabilities of Dreamcast, despite being weak by PS2 standards the game features very detailed models, nice textures, separate fingers and great stages. Yes, Skies of arcadia is more beautiful but each game is a game not to be directly compared.

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Are you serious, this game was designed for the Dreamcast and it still looks like it. This is like saying the Dreamcast couldn't handle Grandia II.

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Originally Posted by Cloofoofoo

Have you even played the game? Random points of the maps black out to load the rest , characters animation that make sword of the berzerk look like Hollywood mocap. Speaking of sword of berzerk already looked better than this game and so did evolution 1 and 2 heck maybe even carrier. This game polygon is pretty low for your info barely spikes to 15k Tris per frame and lighting is none existing except for night time.

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I know you're talking to SegaAMD but lets say this is continuing the topic of best RPG graphics on Dreamcast.

Sword of the Berzerk does look a lot better than this game, but its hack and slash not RPG.

The Evolution series are technically more impressive than this game, but I hate how the characters look like bobble heads. I feel this game literally would've had the best RPG graphics on Dreamcast in an artistic view.

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Originally Posted by Yharnamresident

I haven't even tried Skies of Arcadia. But I already know its not gonna be that graphically impressive because of all the streaming it has to do.

Also it just doesn't make much sense because Konami did PS2/Dreamcast multiplats after this RPG game was released.


It hits 2 million PPS but doesn't exceed it.

Are you serious, this game was designed for the Dreamcast and it still looks like it. This is like saying the Dreamcast couldn't handle Grandia II.

I know you're talking to SegaAMD but lets say this is continuing the topic of best RPG graphics on Dreamcast.

Sword of the Berzerk does look a lot better than this game, but its hack and slash not RPG.

The Evolution series are technically more impressive than this game, but I hate how the characters look like bobble heads. I feel this game literally would've had the best RPG graphics on Dreamcast in an artistic view.

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Which is why i brought up sword of the berserk. As an action game you cant always control where the players is at all times, while in turn based rpgs you can. You would think ephemeral fantasia would look better. Not to mention it isnt even a top notch dc game.

About the art style i guess i dont see it. Its looks ultra generic and not even impressive. Thats n64 port the ps2 had from konami lookd better cant remember the exact name but Its like winspector or something. N64 levels with high poly characters lol!

Edit: i think it was operation winback by koei