PS2 vs Dreamcast Graphics

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Originally Posted by Valkeerie

I just went through most pages in this thread, and I have some things to say:

- The controller debate is fair, but I seriously don't think the Dreamcast needed a dual analog controller. Looking at most top games in the PS2 and Gamecube, they still played like PS1 classics with added features and probably a new camera angle. Silent Hill 3 had tank controls and cinematic camera angles, Metal Gear Solid 3 had a top down view camera resembling 2D games, Resident Evil 4 had tank controls and stop and shoot gameplay, Metroid Prime had lock-on strafing and not your typical FPS scheme, etc. Dual analog only became a thing with Halo and other First Person Shooters, the Dreamcast had a mouse and keyboard.

- Fighters shouldn't be a reason to include 6 buttons when they only remind people of the Saturn and Genesis, and SEGA wanted the Dreamcast to assume the company's role by name, just like the Wii. If fighters were the only reason, then SEGA should have included SNK's Neo Geo click pad as well, because while the Saturn D-pad worked fine, it was by no means the optimal solution. The Dreamcast d-pad sufficed by how serviceable and aesthetically fitting it was, and it was still better than the PS2, Gamecube and Xbox entries. Last, but not the least, you have the arcade stick for competitive purposes.

- Building from the last point is peripheral gameplay that SEGA pushed. If Gunvalkyrie was meant to be played on the Dreamcast with a Light Gun on one hand, then perhaps we would get the SEGA equivalent of Wii's nunchuck, only it would be plugged to one of the 4 ports (no wireless yet). It would be awkward at first, but in my opinion no controller is unified enough to become the norm. The Wii may handle Samba de Amigo, House of the Dead and Fishing games, but it lacks options for traditional games, and because traditional gaming was the norm, offering an escape through peripherals as an option would give SEGA some distinction.

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It isn't fair how Quake 3 is unplayable without a keyboard and mouse. No matter how you look at it, a second analog stick would always do more good than harm.

Or how you gotta control Ryo in Shenmue using the d-pad.

And everyone especially thinks it should've had six buttons. That could've been Sega's trademark design of controllers. The Genesis had six buttons(works awesome in Beyond Oasis), the Saturn had six buttons, even the Saturn 3D controller still had six buttons. But then once the Dreamcast came out, they're like "eh fuck it, lets make it so developers have to use awkward control schemes for the lack of buttons".

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Originally Posted by Kogen

Dreamcast is 480p PC gaming, PS2 is a kid's DVD player with hentai games.

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Yea most people don't realize that the Dreamcast was never intended to be played on HDTVs. Its just a good coincidence that its possible.

I think Sega was like, "okay we gotta make the Dreamcast support a better resolution than what the Saturn is capable of. Even though 480i TVs are all that exist. Oh yeah, with a computer monitor you can get 480p!!!".

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Originally Posted by azonicrider

It isn't fair how Quake 3 is unplayable without a keyboard and mouse. No matter how you look at it, a second analog stick would always do more good than harm.

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That has more to do with developers programming vertical aiming without an auto-centering function, among other things that weren't a problem in Unreal Tournament. If one can play games like MDK2 on the Dreamcast, or MGS Peace Walker on the PSP, then a limited controller suffices, but for competitive play you always have the mouse and keyboard set up.

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Or how you gotta control Ryo in Shenmue using the d-pad.

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You controlled Ryo with the d-pad for cohesion's sake, because there's no way you'd constantly switch from analog input to the required precision of digital input whenever in a fight, specially when most combos were left and right variants (imagine tilting the analog pad from one side to another and the delay you'd get).

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And everyone especially thinks it should've had six buttons. That could've been Sega's trademark design of controllers. The Genesis had six buttons(works awesome in Beyond Oasis), the Saturn had six buttons, even the Saturn 3D controller still had six buttons. But then once the Dreamcast came out, they're like "eh fuck it, lets make it so developers have to use awkward control schemes for the lack of buttons".

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Like I said before, SEGA wanted their tainted image to be gone, so they opted for the optimal approach of the SNES and PS1, two of the most iconic systems before the Dreamcast. 2D fighters suffered, yes, but if you could play Street Fighter Alpha 3 on the Gameboy Advance (two face buttons), there's no reason to not assign some Kicks and Punches to face buttons being pressed together. The remaining problem would be the D-pad, which I insist was serviceable, but anyone who wants the optimal experience buys an arcade stick.

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Originally Posted by Valkeerie

Like I said before, SEGA wanted their tainted image to be gone, so they opted for the optimal approach of the SNES and PS1, two of the most iconic systems before the Dreamcast.

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The Playstation controller still has two more buttons than the Dreamcast. If they wanted to copy the diamond face button layout, they should have added bumpers above the triggers like the Xbox 360 controller has.

And a second analog stick should have been obvious. Dual analog control goes back to games like Descent. It also proved quite useful for camera control in 3D platformers. The Sonic Adventure games used the triggers to rotate the camera, which means you can only adjust on one axis, and now the game can't use the triggers for some other function. In an ideal world, camera control by the player is unnecessary, but games are not ideal and controller design needs to take that into account.

The limited nature of the Dreamcast controller would have become more and more of a liability over time had they kept the system going. When I look at my PS2 and Xbox games, there's quite a few that I can't imagine working well on the Dreamcast controller. Halo uses every button on the Xbox controller. Spy Hunter, Katamari Damacy, Voodoo Vince, I could go on.

Spot on analysis by j_factor IMO. Couldn't rep you though. :(

Actually the Playstation controller has five more buttons than the Dreamcast one, or at least the Dual Shock does -- remember Select and the two clickable analog sticks. And yeah, the DC controller needed at least two more buttons, either as six face buttons (what I would strongly prefer!) or as twin shoulder buttons on each side.

However, the Gamecube got through that generation, and it has only one more button on its controller than the Dreamcast does, so the Dreamcast COULD have seen something similar. Look at GC ports of PS2/Xbox games to see the kinds of things they had to do to get around the paucity of buttons. (And yes, the GC controller should also have had six face buttons!)

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Originally Posted by Valkeerie

That has more to do with developers programming vertical aiming without an auto-centering function, among other things that weren't a problem in Unreal Tournament. If one can play games like MDK2 on the Dreamcast, or MGS Peace Walker on the PSP, then a limited controller suffices, but for competitive play you always have the mouse and keyboard set up.



You controlled Ryo with the d-pad for cohesion's sake, because there's no way you'd constantly switch from analog input to the required precision of digital input whenever in a fight, specially when most combos were left and right variants (imagine tilting the analog pad from one side to another and the delay you'd get).



Like I said before, SEGA wanted their tainted image to be gone, so they opted for the optimal approach of the SNES and PS1, two of the most iconic systems before the Dreamcast. 2D fighters suffered, yes, but if you could play Street Fighter Alpha 3 on the Gameboy Advance (two face buttons), there's no reason to not assign some Kicks and Punches to face buttons being pressed together. The remaining problem would be the D-pad, which I insist was serviceable, but anyone who wants the optimal experience buys an arcade stick.

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So people thought, "oh thats the company that puts six buttons on controllers!!! I fucken hate that company!!!". Perhaps stuff like a CEO, would better represent a tainted image.


I don't get the attitude of "don't give in yet!! lets just keep trying to make things work with only 1 analog stick". Its a stubborn attitude.

And six buttons isn't only useful for fighting games. Think of the "C" and "Z" buttons, as the "L1, R1" buttons on a PS controller. So when Rockstar was making GTA III for the Dreamcast, they could've used those buttons for changing weapons.

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Originally Posted by Barone

Spot on analysis by j_factor IMO. Couldn't rep you though. :(

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I can't rape j_factor either

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Originally Posted by azonicrider

I can't rape j_factor either

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Well, I wouldn't go that far. :lol:

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Originally Posted by azonicrider

So people thought, "oh thats the company that puts six buttons on controllers!!! I fucken hate that company!!!". Perhaps stuff like a CEO, would better represent a tainted image.

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We're talking about the average consumer who sees the console on the shelves. Anything that shows is going to be related to past experiences with identical products. It's not about thinking "Oh, six buttons... what a bad company", but instead "Oh, six buttons... This must be a console from that bad company". The diamond shaped distribution and the VMU brought new life to SEGA controllers, in my opinion, and those were things to which attention was due. Giving the VMU a backlight, improving ergonomy to pull the triggers with ease, making the Start button easier to reach, and allowing the cord to come out of the top. God knows what SEGA would be able to ruin if they had to totally remake the controller for it to have a second analog stick. Focusing on small improvements would be better, in my opinion.

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I don't get the attitude of "don't give in yet!! lets just keep trying to make things work with only 1 analog stick". Its a stubborn attitude.

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Well, aren't I entitled to the opposite as well? Why would you design a controller for games whose gameplay is perfectly framed by a Keyboard and Mouse? Or the Fighting Stick, or a combination of the Light Gun and a (possible) nunchuck? Not embracing peripherals of which multiple games spun off is a stubborn attitude. Let's not make them come to a full circle, but instead wipe them out with an (hardly) unified controller.

Couple of things:

Believe Sega went with 4 face buttons and two analogue triggers as a way of simplifying the controller. In some ways they were trying to attract the casual market that Nintendo so successfully cornered with Wii (and it's relatively simple controls in that anyone could instantly get how to play tennis with a Wiimote) The buttons were also sufficient for arcade conversions.

However this is really short sighted as it was already obvious to most people that two analogue sticks was becoming the norm and obviously counted against them in terms of some games and genres.

In some ways controllers almost seem tied to the dominant genre of the time (6 face buttons - fighting craze of the early to mid 90's, dual analogue - rise of the FPS game although good for most 3d games)

As a separate thought on ShenMue while I agree it may have been for consistency (I.e. Movement and fighting all on digital pad) I always assumed it was a hang-over from the Saturn development. If the player was using the standard pad then he would only have the D-pad available. Buttons word remain the same. Press a button to enter first person view for looking around. However if the player had a 3D pad then movement would still be on the D-pad and buttons would remain the same but as a bonus the player could move the camera/look around independently with the analogue stick and also use the analogue triggers for games of Hang On.

Just a theory though.

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Originally Posted by azonicrider

Yea most people don't realize that the Dreamcast was never intended to be played on HDTVs. Its just a good coincidence that its possible.

I think Sega was like, "okay we gotta make the Dreamcast support a better resolution than what the Saturn is capable of. Even though 480i TVs are all that exist. Oh yeah, with a computer monitor you can get 480p!!!".

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It came with a keyboard, mouse, modem, and had Windows CE on it. It was meant for monitors using VGA.

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Originally Posted by Valkeerie

We're talking about the average consumer who sees the console on the shelves. Anything that shows is going to be related to past experiences with identical products. It's not about thinking "Oh, six buttons... what a bad company", but instead "Oh, six buttons... This must be a console from that bad company". The diamond shaped distribution and the VMU brought new life to SEGA controllers, in my opinion, and those were things to which attention was due. Giving the VMU a backlight, improving ergonomy to pull the triggers with ease, making the Start button easier to reach, and allowing the cord to come out of the top. God knows what SEGA would be able to ruin if they had to totally remake the controller for it to have a second analog stick. Focusing on small improvements would be better, in my opinion.



Well, aren't I entitled to the opposite as well? Why would you design a controller for games whose gameplay is perfectly framed by a Keyboard and Mouse? Or the Fighting Stick, or a combination of the Light Gun and a (possible) nunchuck? Not embracing peripherals of which multiple games spun off is a stubborn attitude. Let's not make them come to a full circle, but instead wipe them out with an (hardly) unified controller.

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Fuck controller peripherals. I got 12 consoles, and no controller peripherals. A single unified controller can work, if executed properly.

Well I guess I do have a Wii steering wheel thing, but I think that was bundled with Mario Kart.

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Originally Posted by Kogen

It came with a keyboard, mouse, modem, and had Windows CE on it. It was meant for monitors using VGA.

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I see those elements as just inspiration. That Sega took from PC gaming.

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Originally Posted by o.pwuaioc

Sega-16 doing a Dreamcast game? The DC gets enough love, how about another Genesis game. :)

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For gods sakes, how about a saturn game? There aren't really any good homebrews for the system.

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Originally Posted by AlecRob

For gods sakes, how about a saturn game? There aren't really any good homebrews for the system.

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Making homebrews for systems which can actually play the games without hardware modification is MUCH more popular than making homebrews for systems which do require mods to play them. The Saturn is in the latter category, unlike the Sega CD, Dreamcast, or most cartridge-based consoles.

Not to mention the Saturn is a mess to program for. There's also the issue that the best tools out there are leaked official tools which have questionable legality.

Good point. Thinking about it, the only 5th gen console with any kind of real homebrew dev activity is of course the Jaguar & Jaguar CD; none of the others do. The need for mod chips is one reason, but it's probably not the only one... the 3DO or N64 wouldn't need those, after all. Jaguar aside, people just don't seem as interested in making new games for the 5th gen consoles. The difficulty of developing for them is surely one reason, I agree. The 5th gen systems have limitations which moving up to the DC alleviates.