Narcissus and the Super Nintendo

Sega Bastard wrote an article about the SNES library's reliance on superfluous effects over art, design, gameplay, etc.


http://segabastard.com/rub/narcissus.html


"Sensibility, though, was not often on the list of goals to accomplish with the Super Nintendo's graphics."


Axelay's conveyor belts may not actually be Mode 7, but he still addresses it for what the end result is. A pretty reserved critique considering the source material. Mosaic and transparencies aren't even brought up. But he bottom lines how hardware gimmickry had a negative effect more often than a justifiably positive one.


"The list is, however, a primer for thought. I don't think having hardware assistance with these effects helped anything; rather, I think game developers found it so easy to use them that the results were uninspired, silly, and extraneous."

I hate those stupid rotating top down levels on Contra 3

Its all hindsight. If you were a kid back then and you only had a Genesis and your freind had a SNES you were jealous and pissed that the SNES could do all those crazy effects and your Genesis couldnt.

Wow, segabastard is still around? Haven't been there in years.

I agree that it was kind of tedious at times waiting around for the SNES to do its tricks. I love Super Mario World, but every time I get to Bowser I sigh a little.

While I agree with him on a couple points (if I were ever to make a parody of a SNES game, it would include lots of waiting around for spinning bosses and nausea-inducing rotating backgrounds), the knowledge of how the entire thing worked displayed in the article seems sketchy at best.

Mode 7 didn't scale sprites, but rather a single tile background, while preventing the game from displaying anything but the SNES's sprite layer on top of it (yes, this is why the HUD transparency goes away in many Mode 7 segments of a couple games, and yes, even the rotating bosses in Super Mario World are actually a background graphic).

My guess is that it was originally designed for racing games such as F-Zero and the likes. As a result, some of the things some developers did with it are pretty amazing. The zooming in and out planets in Space Megaforce/Super Aleste most likely aren't using Mode 7, however, as this goes way beyond its capabilities. Other than that, the game did quite a bit of black magic on the whole and I still don't know how it pulls off some of its effects.

However, I still think there are some Mode 7 segments that actually enhance the game and gameplay - I still don't mind the rotating maze level in Super Ghouls'n'Ghosts, for instance -, and some are eye candy that make you feel happy it's there such as the "tube tunnel" or the shrinking golem boss in Super Castlevania IV. Like most "gimmicks" it's best used sparingly in games that aren't built around it.

^That's what I was thinking too. A lot of the zooming looked like it was most likely background layers, instead of sprites as the article calls them. Of course, that could be figured out really easy. Most SNES emulators allow you to disable 4 layers of backgrounds, or sprites. In SNES9X it's the 1-5(5 being the sprites) keys.

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Originally Posted by DarkDragon

Its all hindsight. If you were a kid back then and you only had a Genesis and your freind had a SNES you were jealous and pissed that the SNES could do all those crazy effects and your Genesis couldnt.

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Don't lump me in with that. I was too busy enjoying the games I had to give a shit.

I always thought mode 7 was interesting, but the scaling was too blocky and rotation was rarely used for something useful. (I liked the Castlevania IV useage, though it was rather slow.) Mainly, I was attracted to the extra colors and sound capabilities of the SNES. (I loathe the excessive reverb now-a-days, however.)

Anecdotally, the people I knew in school (elementary through middle) preferred the SNES over the Genesis (I did, too). The Donkey Kong Country and Final Fantasy series were the deciding factors.

As I got older, I started to appreciate the Genesis more.

I honestly cannot for the life of me understand the obsession with DKC. Both the genesis and SNES have substantially better platformers. I guess people fell for the graphics back then and nostalgia goggles keep them from seeing the game for what it is today. A boring, slow, mediocre game that aged like unpasteurised milk.

DKC is overrated but the soundtrack is still killer and the sequels improved on it a lot.

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Originally Posted by DarkDragon

DKC is overrated but the soundtrack is still killer and the sequels improved on it a lot.

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True, but that's just it! People always talk about DKC, not DKC2 (which is actually good, if not great).

I dont even own DKC I just own the Gameboy Advance port which is fine enough for me. The game just seemed very repetitive and shallow. Lack of variety in the enemies and lame boss battles made it boring. The single best thing about DKC is this right here though. It gives me chills just hearing it.

Well, true, that song is excellent, but is it really that good of an idea to have a slow atmospheric song on a platformer about a tie wearing ape called donkey that's already quite boring to play? The game's soundtrack always struck me as pretentious and unfitting.

Well it makes sense to have a slow song when youre underwater moving slow. :)

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Originally Posted by DarkDragon

Well it makes sense to have a slow song when youre underwater moving slow. :)

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That song isn't the only one like that in the soundtrack :p, but yes, I can accept that one.

Back on topic though, yes there were definitely times when I was playing a SNES game and noticed an effect that was totally unnecessary and was just there to "show off." I definitely wont deny that. I was like "come on really?" The rotating room in Super castlevania IV was definitely badass but the ugly blocky sprite scaling seemed unnecessary.

I don't see a problem in the SNES games illustrating its technically graphic prowess even if the implementation of it comes across unmotivated or detrimentally removed from the game play. It is doing something cool for the sake of doing something cool, I can dig that.

We could discuss whether if that "cool" factor then in the 90's is still there today, but arguing its general relevancy seems like sour grapes. Perhaps more simply for me: if graphical hardware tricks hurts the game, then they're bad; if it approves upon the game, then they're good; if it just there for the sake of being there, well, nothing wrong with having a little flair.

Woke up today, felt great, thought: "I bet there's a new Nintendo thread at Sega-16."

You didn't disappoint me internet.

http://a.gifb.in/reverse-39sw2yu48sw.gif

I love the flames in the first stage of Dracula X, that's an effect used well. Rotating shit in CV IV (besides the tunnel)... not so much.

Dracula X is overrated (and that somehow justifies people overcharging for it on eBay). Super Castlevania IV was better in every way and is a cheaper alternative.

Dat 8-directional whip.

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Originally Posted by Ninsega

Dracula X is overrated (and that somehow justifies people overcharging for it on eBay). Super Castlevania IV was better in every way and is a cheaper alternative.

Dat 8-directional whip.

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http://bitchspot.jadedragononline.co...ainst-wall.jpg

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Originally Posted by Ninsega

Dracula X is overrated (and that somehow justifies people overcharging for it on eBay). Super Castlevania IV was better in every way and is a cheaper alternative.

Dat 8-directional whip.

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I agree that CVIV is better in every way. But I didn't realize Dracula X was overrated. I thought everyone hated it across the board.

Got Dracula X for $10 a few years ago. Feels so good.

I think he only means the SNES game.

I hope.

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Originally Posted by Cornelius Spunkwater

I agree that CVIV is better in every way. But I didn't realize Dracula X was overrated. I thought everyone hated it across the board.

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PCE game- A fantastic "classic" Castlevania game. Not flawless, but great from start to finish in pretty much every category.

SNES pseudo-sequel- A good, albeit with issues, game. The hyperbole around how bad the SNES game is, is way overblown. The only real problematic aspect of it is the way you get no second or two of invincibility when you're hit. This leads to moments of being bounced to death if enemies keep hitting you. Otherwise, the graphics, music and gameplay are fine.

Dracula X is okay. Castlevania IV is better.

The PCE version is king.

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Originally Posted by DarkDragon

Its all hindsight. If you were a kid back then and you only had a Genesis and your freind had a SNES you were jealous and pissed that the SNES could do all those crazy effects and your Genesis couldnt.

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Almost nobody that i knew when i was a kid had a Snes. Also, i was still playing the Mega Drive when the Saturn/PSX/N64 were out so there was nothing impressive about those Snes "crazy effects".

About that article, i think it's pretty cool and he definetely has a good point there. Also, it's refreshing to see something a little more light-hearted in contrast with those "cold , serious and unbiased" technical analysis that comes up every now and then.

The only time where I can legitimately recall thinking that "Mode-7" was put to good use was in the final boss stage against Bowser in Yoshi's Island

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Originally Posted by Bottino

Almost nobody that i knew when i was a kid had a Snes. Also, i was still playing the Mega Drive when the Saturn/PSX/N64 were out so there was nothing impressive about those Snes "crazy effects".

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Well, that's Brazil for you. Things were *a lot* different over here in the USA.

I had a theory back in the day that Nintendo was giving the 3rd party developers a break on licensing fees if they used mode 7.

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Originally Posted by Iron Lizard

I had a theory back in the day that Nintendo was giving the 3rd party developers a break on licensing fees if they used mode 7.

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You honestly might be onto something.

Mohawk and Headphone Jack must have had a negative licensing fee then.

I really can't stand that game. It makes me nauseated.

Early Konami games are gimmicky as hell with the tech stuff and it's unfortunately often to the detriment of the games.

I agree with some of this guy's viewpoints (Space Megaforce), but not with others (Axelay, whose overhead stages were proven NOT to have used Mode-7). I never saw Mode-7 as a detriment to my SNES gaming experience, at worst it was just cheesy in games like Space Megaforce, in which the developers seemingly used it for kicks. It was impressive for the time and easy to implement, why wouldn't developers wanna use it?

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In Greek mythology, Narcissus (/nɑrˈsɪsəs/; Greek: Νάρκισσος, Narkissos) was a hunter from the territory of Thespiae in Boeotia who was renowned for his beauty. He was the son of a river god named Cephissus and a nymph named Liriope.[1] He was exceptionally proud of what he did to those who loved him. Nemesis noticed and attracted Narcissus to a pool, wherein he saw his reflection and fell in love with it, not realizing it was merely an image. Unable to leave the beauty of his reflection, Narcissus died.[2] Narcissus is the origin of the term narcissism, a fixation with oneself.

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I hated the overhead stages in Axelay. Lifeforce(Salamander) for the NES was a better game IMO.

While I thought the article had a few good points, overall I was unimpressed as the author seemed biased against the SNES and seemed to be going on a rant. I would not recommend this article to anyone as there are much better resources out there on the subject which are less biased and less selective in presentation of facts.

Nintendo wanted games that showed off their hardware. I wouldn't be at all surprised if they gave a break on games that utilized the SNES' strengths.

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Originally Posted by Cornelius Spunkwater

Nintendo wanted games that showed off their hardware. I wouldn't be at all surprised if they gave a break on games that utilized the SNES' strengths.

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D-Force was potentially given a financial break?


...

Isn't that a violation of civil rights, or some kind of 16-bit war crime?

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Originally Posted by Jesse813

While I thought the article had a few good points, overall I was unimpressed as the author seemed biased against the SNES and seemed to be going on a rant. I would not recommend this article to anyone as there are much better resources out there on the subject which are less biased and less selective in presentation of facts.

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Well, that's Segabastard. Anybody who's been there before is used to it.

I really liked the article there about Beyond Oasis versus Zelda 3, though. I still need to get around to playing Beyond Oasis myself (I know, I know), but I never really got the hype over LttP, and it does a good job outlining some of the reasons why. I did quit when I saw that map he mentions and realized how tedious it was going to be.

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Originally Posted by tim333

Well, that's Segabastard. Anybody who's been there before is used to it.

I really liked the article there about Beyond Oasis versus Zelda 3, though. I still need to get around to playing Beyond Oasis myself (I know, I know), but I never really got the hype over LttP, and it does a good job outlining some of the reasons why. I did quit when I saw that map he mentions and realized how tedious it was going to be.

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but i dont want to play either of them

As much as it's fun to rag on Nintendo, I dunno why Sega fans just can't accept that the SNES is a decent console with some amazing games, and not the most overhyped piece of shit ever.