Micro-64 Feature: Nintendo 64 Vs. Sega Saturn

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Originally Posted by Soulis

Street Fighter Alpha 3 is 45MBs on the arcade board. Considering how they managed to fit 2 CDs in one 64MB cart, i don;t think it would be too hard to fit this game on a 32MB cart, with minor cuts. Or they could use a 64MB cart and even add some content. We are talking about Capcom here, they would be more than capable doing an arcade perfect N64 version, if they really wanted. And there would be no loading ofc, with the standard RAM.

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Again, you're forgetting that the Saturn and PS1 versions have more content than the arcade. They have additional characters, they have more stages, they have a lot more game modes too. That's going to take more space. And if we look at how butchered Mortal Kombat Trilogy was on the N64, I'd be willing to bet we'd see some cuts in the amount of characters and stages, while having drops in audio quality. And you're assuming they'd use a large cart. Those were expensive to produce, which could easily push them into using a smaller one. I'm not saying it couldn't be done, but there would be sacrifices if Capcom didn't decide to use a large enough cart.

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Originally Posted by Soulis

This is maybe a shock for you but really, N64 carts were big enough for games. There are 4 major things that hold it back.

-Price. Obviously carts were more expensive to produce.

-FMVs. Doesn't count as game content IMO. In game cutscenes can still be used as an alternative and even has it's own strengths.

-Sound quality/voice acting. Again, doesn't count as game content. And this may sound biased but i actually prefer good quality midis over orchestral music (not always but most of the time). Most of my favorite soundtracks are Midi anyway. Plus you get dynamic music this way. Voice acting is a huge plus on CDs but it appears that they got around it anyway and many N64 games had fully voiced characters, like in Starfox and Conker.

-Textures. This is the only important thing that CD games could really take advantage of IMO. But i think that it was mostly the texture cache that caused N64 most problems in this aspect, not the size of the carts. I believe that a 32MB cart would be able to fit decent textures, i mean DOOM 64 is only 8MB and it's one of the best looking N64 games texture wise.

Game content/hours of gameplay is something mostly unrelated with the size of the medium.

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Ok now you're just being silly. I'm sorry but for a lot of games that generation, especially RPGs, sound quality, FMVs, and voice acting are pretty damn important. Most of the games I'm bringing up aren't using CD quality audio, but they are using significantly better samples and audio streams than what you would be able to fit into an N64 cart. Show me an N64 game that has this kind of audio quality:













The only games I can think of that even get close to that quality on the N64 are the Castlevania's and F-Zero X, and even that's stretching it. And no, none of those are CD audio. And while Starfox and Conker are impressive for N64 voice acting, the quality is quite muffled and there's a bit less than what we have in the most dialogue heavy PS1 and Saturn games.

Compare Saturn and PS1 RPGs to N64 RPGs. The worlds are typically a lot bigger with longer quests that are further fleshed out with voice acting and FMV. Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask while great games, aren't free from this. In fact they're stunning examples of this. Their worlds are small compared to what we have in the PS1 Final Fantasy games, or Lunar and Grandia on the Saturn. The quests are also significantly shorter.

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Originally Posted by Soulis

And how much RAM does the cart give you? Extra 2 MBs? What if you need more later? Buy a bigger RAM cart?

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It gave you 4MB which when combined with the system RAM gave you a total of 6MB.

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Originally Posted by Soulis

You don't need that much RAM with cartridges, according to what the Factor 5 dev said. Even the extra 4MB (8 in total) N64 RAM wasn't enough for Battle for Naboo (which is much less than what the RAM cart gives you on the Saturn). But the game was possible on the N64 because it could use the cart almost as a RAM. That's what he said. And sorry but i will take his word for it instead of yours:

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I'm not saying that wasn't a nice thing it could do or denying the benefit of cartridge speed. I'm saying that you could get a similar benefit on the Saturn or PS1 with a RAM expansion. The problem was solved on 6th Generation systems by giving the systems significantly more RAM and faster drives.

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Originally Posted by Soulis

This is from Wiki:

The difference in speed is as massive as the difference in storage space between them. It's not just "a few times faster". Even at the lowest rated speed of 5MBs, you still get 15+ times faster, plus you don't have the latency of the actual lens mechanism since you can get data from anywhere in the cart at any given point.

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Again I'm not denying cartridges are fast. I'm saying the cost of producing them as well as the limited amount of space wasn't worth it. If it was we wouldn't have seen companies like Square Enix flocking to disc based systems for their RPGs. And again, as the Saturn and later systems showed, increasing the amount of RAM in the system would help here and be more cost effective than using cartridges.

I'm not a RPG fan (i actually hate Jrpgs) but aren't some SNES/Genesis Jrpgs regarded as the best? Like Chrono Trigger? I wonder how these games were so good, considering they were stored in even smaller than N64 carts? Plus, they use 2D art and sprites which is something you guys seem to love around here. So the N64 would be perfectly capable for such games with even better art. But it seems that FMVs were more important for squaresoft. I'm glad i'm not a fan of RPGs because this would make me very pissed.

Also, by your logic, games on older generations that are stored in a few KBs, would take a few seconds to complete. You don't make any sense. Size is used for assets mostly, not actual gameplay content. There are western PC RPGs that are less than 1MB and can take you forever to complete. Gameplay doesn't equal storage size.

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Originally Posted by Soulis

I'm not a RPG fan (i actually hate Jrpgs) but aren't some SNES/Genesis Jrpgs regarded as the best? Like Chrono Trigger? I wonder how these games were so good, considering they were stored in even smaller than N64 carts? Plus, they use 2D art ans sprites which is something you guys seem to love around here. So the N64 would be perfectly capable for such games with even better art. But it seems that FMVs were more important for squaresoft. I'm glad i'm not a fan of RPGs because this would make me very pissed.

Also, by your logic, games on older generations that are stored in a few KBs, would take a few seconds to complete. You don't make any sense. Size is used for assets mostly, not actual gameplay content. There are western PC RPGs that are less than 1MB and can take you 200+ hours to complete. Gameplay doesn't equal medium size.

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Again you're being silly here. Chrono Trigger and other 16-bit RPGs are great for their time. Some are long too, but we also see the limitations of the smaller storage size. There's a lot of repeated graphics, cutscenes are a lot more simple and basic, etc. It would be silly to claim that CD-ROM space didn't improve the genre. It clearly did as we can see even when comparing Sega CD and PC-Engine CD RPGs to those on the SNES and Genesis. The Lunar games are considered some of the best RPGs of that generation and they make excellent use of the CD medium to give large worlds and very well told stories that are made possible thanks to the use of CDs.

But you are right, Gameplay does not equal storage size. However, a larger storage size can significantly enhance the experience of playing a game. Are simple graphics with simple MIDIs adequate? Sure, but better graphics with better music, voice acting, and cutscenes would probably be better.

Fair enough.

Since i'm not into the genre, i can't appreciate the advantages it seems. Plus, i'm against cinematic gaming in general. It's one of the trends that makes gaming less fun for me. I hate the whole pretentiousness of the cinematic games that take themselves so seriously and end up so cringe worthy. I also hate the hand holding and minimum interactivity/freedom of movement most games of this kind provide.

I also hate voice acting in 99% of cases. Really, the only games where i ever liked the voice acting were Starfox 64, Dungeon Keeper and Portal 1/2. And what these games have in common? They are silly, not taking themselves too seriously. Plus in Portal or Dungeon Keeper your character doesn't really talk, you just hear NPCs talk to you.

When i hear the voice acting in most Jrpgs, it makes me cringe so hard that i might die some day from it. And to all these people who want voice overs in Zelda games. Get the hell out please. Sometimes voice acting ruins games. See Sonic for example. The moment he opened his mouth i hated him. You can't always relate to the character you control when he talks. You can always relate though if he is silent. Because you can put yourself in his shoes. I prefer that in my videogames.

So yeah, as you can see, i'm not really a fan of the things CDs introduce to the gaming world. I still prefer midi over orchestral (with a few exceptions like the Shadow of Colossus) and i still prefer text or no dialog in my games, even today. I suppose i'm the minority.

I didn't have a problem with Sonic's voice. It fit his character perfectly. And the Grandia and Lunar games had good voice acting as well that certainly wasn't cringeworthy. Same with Symphony of the Night.

And while we're on the subject of cartridges, it should probably be pointed out that you could technically do Cartridge based games on the Saturn. Though it would appear most devs felt that CDs or CD+RAM/ROM cart combos were more cost effective.

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

I didn't have a problem with Sonic's voice. It fit his character perfectly. And the Grandia and Lunar games had good voice acting as well that certainly wasn't cringeworthy. Same with Symphony of the Night.

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Well now you are being the minority.

Also Symphony of the Night voice acting is so cringe, it became a meme. 'DIE YOU MONSTER" and "WHAT IS A MAN? A MISERABLE PILE OF SECRETS" are among the most famous. It's not much the writing as it is the delivery of the voice acting that's important here. And it's not trying to be funny. It's just ends up being funny. The game would have been just as good, without the voice acting.

And Sonic would have remained a cool and likeable character, without his "YO mom look how cewl i am, yeah, come on" attitude. Sure he was "cool" on the Genesis games too, but i always thought of him as a cool character that retains some subtlety and isn't a try hard.

And cinematic games is like the definition of "try hard" in my vocabulary.

Also, i forgot to mention OtherM. Here we have a game that pretty much got destroyed after trying to become cinematic and voice acted (while being perfect the way it was before). Even the whole franchise and the main character were ruined beyond repair. Nice work cinematic gaming.

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^ Pretty ironic this quote. "Cartridge saved the day"?? How many times did you hear that back in the day? I remember the flack i was getting when i was trying to point out the advantages the cartridges have. I even wrote to a local games magazine back then and it even got posted, but the answers from PSX fanboys were funny...

I always believed that the cartridge is actually a better medium for the games themselves to function (sans the lower storage that can affect the quality of the games negatively). But with a bit more storage, the medium has many more advantages. I mean, Solid State is the future now right?

You can also go back a bit further, when 8bit/16bit computers were around. Everyone were so jealous about the "plug and play" cartridges the new consoles had. They were more expensive but so much faster than floppy disks (in early days, carts didn't even have much bigger storage size either. They were just faster and more reliable.). And when the CDs came around, they looked like glorified floppy discs to me, bringing back some of the awful things the carts got rid of, like loading times, loud mechanical noises and slow/unreliable mechanical parts.

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I believe that the point of that context was that carts helped devs worked around the bottlenecks of the N64 hardware. If you gave the Saturn and PSX whole cart games, you'd see a big bump in performance. It puts into perspective how much narrower the gap is between the N64 and competing consoles.

Disc based games were better overall for the time (and up until the current generation), since large content, fmv and genres like JRPG were so popular. The N64 could have done epic 3D or 2D RPGs, but it wasn't worth dealing with Nintendo's cart price gouging scam again. They wound up alienating Japanese publishers, who traditionally make games more for their own market. Instead, they stuck to games which appealed more to foreign markets, since the N64 was the least popular console there.

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Originally Posted by Black_Tiger

I believe that the point of that context was that carts helped devs worked around the bottlenecks of the N64 hardware. If you gave the Saturn and PSX whole cart games, you'd see a big bump in performance.

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He talked about a specific game and a specific problem. He said that the RAM wasn't enough for it. So they used the cart to stream data, in the same way it does from RAM. I don't see anything in his words that indicate the situation would be be better on the PS1 or SAT, especially considering both consoles have less RAM anyway.

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BTW, if you ever want to compare the two, take a look at the Saturn and PSX versions of Tomb Raider side-by-side. The Saturn one I believe came out first (and Core weren't slouches when it came to the Saturn) and whilst both systems framerates chug a bit, the framerate and general fidelity of the PSX is higher. Tomb Raider II didn't come out on Saturn (system was all but dead for non-Sega support), but if you compare side-by-side you'll see a massive performance increase in framerate over TR1, whilst poly counts were up.

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That's being a little silly . Any sequel one would expect to see gains with tech and software and we saw this on the Saturn from both 3rd parties and In-House. The leap from VF to VF II was massive. Zwei was handling more polygons looked better and also saw an improved rate to 30fps . Virtual Cop II saw a huge leap in polygons and was asking way more of the Saturn. Gun Griffion II is asking and handling a lot more than GG . King the Spirits 2 is way improved over the 1st game and so on it goes.
And the only reason Tomb Raider II didn't come to the Saturn was because SONY bought the game rights... speaking of Core and other teams thinking the Saturn was more powerful, how the PS had issues with trying to handle VDP II effects read some of these ...

https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5822/...ce423c0e_b.jpg

https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5628/...b5b12bb0_b.jpg

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/591/2...c819d16e_b.jpg

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/595/2...a2ff6e2a_b.jpg

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This is maybe a shock for you but really, N64 carts were big enough for games. There are 4 major things that hold it back.

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So why did both Square and Enix jump to the PS then ... Sorry Carts was a massive cock up by Nintendo and it really hurt the machine

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Sound quality/voice acting. Again, you can have alternative formats of sounds on a cart. And this may sound biased but i actually prefer good quality midis over orchestral music (not always but most of the time). Most of my favorite soundtracks are Midi anyway. Plus you get dynamic music this way. Voice acting is a huge plus on CDs but it appears that they got around it anyway and many N64 games had fully voiced characters, like in Starfox, PD, Shadowman, Conker, etc

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. The lack of CD rom and any sort of soundchip really hurt the N64 and while you can point to Conkers . The fact was that having huge carts was too much of a risk for most 3rd parties and the big carts didn't come much latter in.

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Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

So why did both Square and Enix jump to the PS then ...

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Because it was much cheaper to produce. Doesn't matter which medium is better. Medium capabilities are not the priority. Even if carts had just as much space, they would still go for the cheaper medium. Devs/publishers always aim to what benefits them first and then the games themselves or the consumers/gamers. Like how digital distribution today will soon make physical non existent and if you think about it, digital only is mostly beneficial to publishers and less so to gamers.

I think Sony's Tomb Raider II deal had a lot to do with the short delay of Tomb Raider for the Saturn. I ended up getting Tomb Raider for the PlayStation, because of the delay.

Square had began work on Final Fantasy VII for the the N64 first, and then decided that the carts did not have enough storage space for the game they wanted to make, so they went to the PlayStation. Let's not forget that the early N64 carts did not have a lot of storage space, like those carts made after 1998.

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Because it was much cheaper to produce.

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No . Looking over this was Square one of the biggest software houses in Japan at the time and you look to sell some 2 to 3 millions copies per game, so they wouldn't have issues like other 3rd parties . Square left Nintendo N64 because at the time N64 Carts and N64 DD discs just weren't big enough for what they had planned for FF 7 and they came out and said it , that's why they left Ninetndo and why Nintendo lost Japan.

Speech can really add to the game; I couldn't imagine playing the Drakes series with out the great script and voice acting, playing Metal Gear Solid with out the voice acting . Speech added so much to likes of Wind Commader, Rise of the Dragon and even the likes of Indy and the Fate of Atlantis. In fact it was hard to imagine a LucasArts point and click game with out speeck after CD-Rom . You can bring up the rubbish english Dub of Castlevania SOTN , but the fact is that game had a far better soundtrack than the crap we got with Castlevaina on the N64, never mind how inferior Wipeout music was on the N64 to that of the Saturn and PS and it was in crappy mono. When it game to sound the N64 was bit of letdown and a step backwards.

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I think Sony's Tomb Raider II deal had a lot to do with the short delay of Tomb Raider for the Saturn.

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Tomb Raider came out 1st on the Saturn.

It was launched on the Saturn and PlayStation on November 14th. But, when I went to EB games, there was some sort of delay that kept the Saturn game from reaching their shelves for weeks. It seemed pretty shady to me.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomb...96_video_game)

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Originally Posted by Soulis

Well now you are being the minority.

Also Symphony of the Night voice acting is so cringe, it became a meme. 'DIE YOU MONSTER" and "WHAT IS A MAN? A MISERABLE PILE OF SECRETS" are among the most famous. It's not much the writing as it is the delivery of the voice acting that's important here. And it's not trying to be funny. It's just ends up being funny. The game would have been just as good, without the voice acting.

And Sonic would have remained a cool and likeable character, without his "YO mom look how cewl i am, yeah, come on" attitude. Sure he was "cool" on the Genesis games too, but i always thought of him as a cool character that retains some subtlety and isn't a try hard.

And cinematic games is like the definition of "try hard" in my vocabulary.

Also, i forgot to mention OtherM. Here we have a game that pretty much got destroyed after trying to become cinematic and voice acted (while being perfect the way it was before). Even the whole franchise and the main character were ruined beyond repair. Nice work cinematic gaming.

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Sonic's attidude was established long before Sonic Adventure in the Sonic Cartoons and Movies. Which I'd say Sonic Adventure found a good balance for how it portrayed Sonic. He still had attitude, but it wasn't anywhere near the in your face levels the 90's cartoons and movie had.

And Symphony of the Night's lines are not cringeworthy. The lines aren't delivered badly, they became a meme more because of how memorable they are. If you think Sonic Adventure and Symphony of the Night are examples of bad voice acting, you clearly have never heard any of these:











Next to those, the voice acting in Symphony of the Night and Sonic Adventure freaking Academy Award winning performances. Hell even Burning Rangers sounds like an amazing performance next to those examples.

And Other M was ruined by more than just voice acting. The voices for the characters weren't bad, it was the lines they were given to read and the way they were instructed to read them that made that portion bad. But even with the line delivery and their writing, that's not what ruined Other M. Other M was ruined by Sakamoto's desire to redefine Samus' character into that of a typical Anime Heroine in hopes it would make the series more appealing in Japan. It's not the voice acting that ruined it, it's the scenes portraying Samus as a helpless child having an emotional breakdown in the middle of a battle.

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Originally Posted by Soulis

Because it was much cheaper to produce. Doesn't matter which medium is better. Medium capabilities are not the priority. Even if carts had just as much space, they would still go for the cheaper medium. Devs/publishers always aim to what benefits them first and then the games themselves or the consumers/gamers. Like how digital distribution today will soon make physical non existent and if you think about it, digital only is mostly beneficial to publishers and less so to gamers.

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Yes it was cheaper to produce. It also gave you sigifnicantly more bang for your buck in the space department. You would not have been able to fit all that FMV and good quality music samples onto an N64 cartridge. A cartridge big enough would have been ridiculously expensive to produce and FF7 probably would have probably cost over $200 if it came out on the N64.

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Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

Tomb Raider came out 1st on the Saturn.

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Only in Europe. In the US there was the delay gamevet is talking about.

Yeah, I didn't realize that it was released a couple of weeks earlier in Europe. The North American launch of Tomb Raider had some kind of shady supply issues that kept the Saturn version of Tomb Raider from reaching shelves for weeks after the official launch date.

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

And as the Saturn proved, with a RAM expansion the load times can become a non-issue:

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Even without the cartridge (in Shinning Force 3), thanks to one of the extra CPUs (sound one?) that did the preliminary work before the main CPUs came into the picture to actually start things. (At least that's how I'm remembering reading that interview or something) Course, some of that load time was also hidden while characters were moving and making their selection on the battlefield too.

Still, makes me wonder how this could of been used in other games to help with streaming and what not. Among what other hidden tricks could of been found from the Saturn had it actually lived long enough...

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Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

So why did both Square and Enix jump to the PS then ...

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Choosing the Hardware for Final Fantasy VII

Sakaguchi: It was starting to become clear to us what the memory capacity for the different next-gen consoles would be. Our games were going to need a huge amount of memory. The Final Fantasy VI CG demo we made for the Siggraph exhibition took 20 megs all by itself. We thought that demo had a lot of visual impact, so there really wasn’t much question about which hardware we would use; if we were going to realize the promise of the demo we had shown at Siggraph, nothing but the CD-ROM format would suffice.

Another reason for choosing the CD-ROM was related to price. I think one of the big reasons the first Final Fantasy was favorably received by players, and the later games in the series gained so many fans, was that you could buy those games for around 5000 to 6000 yen. We tried to have the same pricing for Bahamut Lagoon, Gun Hazard, and our other later Super Famicom games, but using cartridge ROM meant those games had to be sold for over 10000 yen. New players did not flock to those games like they had before. If we used CD-ROM for Final Fantasy VII, we’d be able to have a 2-disc game at a price of 5800 yen. I was hoping it would be possible to make a game that could sell several hundred thousand copies.

http://shmuplations.com/ff7/

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

Sonic's attidude was established long before Sonic Adventure in the Sonic Cartoons and Movies.

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I'm a gamer. I don't care about movies or children's cartoons. You know what else? Mortal Kombat also had cartoons. Does that mean a child friendly MK would be a good idea? Robocop also had cartoons and even toys. But have you ever seen the original movie? That's not stuff for kids, that's for sure.

So no. I don't care if Sonic was worse in his cartoon. Because i don't watch it. Different medium for a different audience. I played the games and imagined the character being the way i liked. That's something that silent, subtle characters allow you to do and you basically proved my point.

If you like the obnoxious, bratty, redesigned Sonic, good for you. My problem is that, before all this, both me and you liked him. Did you have a problem with Sonic the way he looked in Genesis games? Right. Now, however, only you like him.

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

And Symphony of the Night's lines are not cringeworthy. The lines aren't delivered badly, they became a meme more because of how memorable they are.

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Oh come on, you can't be serious.

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

And Other M was ruined by more than just voice acting. The voices for the characters weren't bad, it was the lines they were given to read and the way they were instructed to read them that made that portion bad. But even with the line delivery and their writing, that's not what ruined Other M. Other M was ruined by Sakamoto's desire to redefine Samus' character into that of a typical Anime Heroine in hopes it would make the series more appealing in Japan. It's not the voice acting that ruined it, it's the scenes portraying Samus as a helpless child having an emotional breakdown in the middle of a battle.

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Since i hate everything about OtherM, i will agree. Although the voice acting and writing was indeed bad. But my point was about cinematic games. It's pretty obvious that Sakamoto wanted to make the game cinematic because that is the trend. That's how the average joe will buy a niche game like Metroid. Because average joe has more money than you and me. He also wanted to make it more accessible, he said so himself.

Casual and cinematic. The two things that were the complete opposite of what Metroid was all about. Thankfully the game bombed. At least we won't get another piece of shit like that and the franchise will die in peace (unlike Sonic)

But i think that's a bit off topic now.

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

I have 100% completed OOT many times. It does not take 100 hours. Final Fantasy VIII has significantly more content and a much longer quest. That's not to say OOT is a bad game, but it's not really a long game when compared to RPGs on the Saturn and PS1.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZD75QVxMbG8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-pbp9vUe10

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Originally Posted by Soulis

-Sound quality/voice acting. Again, you can have alternative formats of sounds on a cart. And this may sound biased but i actually prefer good quality midis over orchestral music (not always but most of the time). Most of my favorite soundtracks are Midi anyway.

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I prefer music off console hardware over tunes made off it myself too. Even FF7 was done using the PS1 hardware sound over CD quality music. Ditto for Shining Force 3. Lots of PS1 and Saturn games had their music off console hardware VS streamed off the CD.

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Originally Posted by Soulis

If you like the obnoxious, bratty, redesigned Sonic, good for you. My problem is that, before all this, both me and you liked him. Did you have a problem with Sonic the way he looked in Genesis games? Right. Now, however, only you like him.

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Didn't know it was possible for anyone to enjoy the jerk Sonic turned into... I even hate his character model change that started in Sonic Adventure.

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Originally Posted by Soulis

I'm a gamer. I don't care about movies or children's cartoons. You know what else? Mortal Kombat also had cartoons. Does that mean a child friendly MK would be a good idea? Robocop also had cartoons and even toys. But have you ever seen the original movie? That's not stuff for kids, that's for sure.

So no. I don't care if Sonic was worse in his cartoon. Because i don't watch it. Different medium for a different audience. I played the games and imagined the character being the way i liked. That's something that silent, subtle characters allow you to do and you basically proved my point.

If you like the obnoxious, bratty, redesigned Sonic, good for you. My problem is that, before all this, both me and you liked him. Did you have a problem with Sonic the way he looked in Genesis games? Right. Now, however, only you like him.

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The difference though is that some of those Sonic Cartoons (like the Sonic CD OVA) were made with Sega and Sonic Team's approval last I checked. And again Sonic's attitude was always there in the games too. I'm sorry you were too oblivious to see it and envisioned the character completely differently than how it's creators and 99% of the games audience envisioned him. And then we can bring up the old commercials:



Sorry, but he was always bratty and obnoxious.

Also, I am not the only one who liked Sonic's character in Sonic Adventure 1 and 2. Go back and read old reviews from when those games came out on the Dreamcast. There's nothing but praise and good review scores. Both are around 85% on Gamerankings and the 2nd one has an 89 on Metacritic. The "Modern Sonic Sucks" bandwagon is simply something that came about after Sonic 2006.

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Originally Posted by Soulis

Oh come on, you can't be serious.

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Did you look at the examples I gave you of truly bad voice acting? Symphony of the Night is no where near that level. It's actually pretty well done with a good production value for 90's Video Game voice acting. And then there's the fact that quite a few fans were upset when all the voice acting was redone for the PSP release.

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Originally Posted by Soulis

Since i hate everything about OtherM, i will agree. Although the voice acting and writing was indeed bad. But my point was about cinematic games. It's pretty obvious that Sakamoto wanted to make the game cinematic because that is the trend. That's how the average joe will buy a niche game like Metroid. Because average joe has more money than you and me. He also wanted to make it more accessible, he said so himself.

Casual and cinematic. The two things that were the complete opposite of what Metroid was all about. Thankfully the game bombed. At least we won't get another piece of shit like that and the franchise will die in peace (unlike Sonic)

But i think that's a bit off topic now.

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As I said it was him trying to make the series appeal to the Japanese Audience by flooding it with JRPG and Anime tropes. And no one should have been surprised. I saw that one coming since Metroid Fusion on the GBA. The official Metroid Manga released in Japan further pointed to the direction it was going.

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

Did you look at the examples I gave you of truly bad voice acting? Symphony of the Night is no where near that level. It's actually pretty well done with a good production value for 90's Video Game voice acting.

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Yes. SotN voice acting is excellent.

Heck, I'll even go as far to say RE1's voice acting is really great too as it greatly added to the game experience. The B movie experience.

Resident Evil is a special case. It falls into the "It's so bad it's good" category.

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

The difference though is that some of those Sonic Cartoons (like the Sonic CD OVA) were made with Sega and Sonic Team's approval last I checked. And again Sonic's attitude was always there in the games too. I'm sorry you were too oblivious to see it and envisioned the character completely differently than how it's creators and 99% of the games audience envisioned him. And then we can bring up the old commercials:

Also, I am not the only one who liked Sonic's character in Sonic Adventure 1 and 2. Go back and read old reviews from when those games came out on the Dreamcast. There's nothing but praise and good review scores. Both are around 85% on Gamerankings and the 2nd one has an 89 on Metacritic. The "Modern Sonic Sucks" bandwagon is simply something that came about after Sonic 2006.

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Sorry man but Sonic Adventure is BAD. Not terrible, but bad. It was bad when i first played it back then and it's even worse now. The controls are broken, the camera is broken, it's glitchy and unstable and the cutscenes/voice acting are laughable.

The music is nice though. And the graphics probably blinded everyone thinking it's a good game. But it was the beginning of the end for Sonic.

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

Sorry, but he was always bratty and obnoxious.

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Sonic in Genesis wasn't.

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Originally Posted by Soulis

Sorry man but Sonic Adventure is BAD. Not terrible, but bad. It was bad when i first played it back then and it's even worse now. The controls are broken, the camera is broken, it's glitchy and unstable and the cutscenes/voice acting is laughable.

The music is nice though. And the graphics probably blinded everyone thinking it's a goof game. But it was the beginning of the end for Sonic.

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The voice acting was again fine for it's time. There's a reason why so many people were upset when those actors were replaced in Sonic X and future titles.

The controls and Camera are fine on the Dreamcast version, and there's far less glitches in the US Dreamcast version. The game is clearly designed around the Dreamcast Analog stick which has little to no deadzone. When playing with that controller Sonic moves smoothly and tight turns are very easy to maneuver. Later ports on other systems seem to be harder to control due to less accurate and smooth analog sticks. A perfect example of this is in the dock portion of Emerald Coast. On the Dreamcast I can keep my speed up and go through that turn with ease without touching the sides. On the Gamecube and Steam/360 versions I hit the wall and go bouncing around every time.

The true problem with the game is that every time it gets ported to a new platform the few minor issues it had aren't addressed, but a plethora of new issues are introduced with each port.

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Originally Posted by Soulis

Sonic in Genesis wasn't.

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Yet he was in the commercials for said game that were made by Sega using the exact same design he had in the games and on all it's promotional material. Sonic was always bratty and obnoxious. He was designed that way to be the exact opposite of Mario. Your special interpretation doesn't change this.

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

Yet he was in the commercials for said game that were made by Sega using the exact same design he had in the games and on all it's promotional material. Sonic was always bratty and obnoxious. He was designed that way to be the exact opposite of Mario. Your special interpretation doesn't change this.

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I never saw these commercials in my country.

And again, commercials aren't always "canon". I bet that Yuji Naka didn't even have a say in those, am i right?

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

The controls and Camera are fine on the Dreamcast version

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No they are not. They are pretty shit. The camera is one of the worst i ever saw actually.

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

The true problem with the game is that every time it gets ported to a new platform the few minor issues it had aren't addressed, but a plethora of new issues are introduced with each port.

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Good thing i never played any other ports then. The original version was bad enough for me.

I wasn't upset when they changed actors. Sonic Adventure was the last Sonic title I'd bought. I really didn't like SA at all.

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The controls are broken, the camera is broken, it's glitchy and unstable and the cutscenes/voice acting are laughable.

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The controls aren't broken at all . And all this talk of voice acting and what not is laughable in itself. The game was a platform game and a very good one at that , its not like the laughable story and voice acting in the Mario games are any better.

Voice acting adds a lot to a game and really added a lot to those classic LucasArts point and click games and made a world of difference to the Mega CD versions of Wing Commander and Rise of the Dragon or games like Snatcher . Good scipts and voice acting helps draw you into a game . Nintendo don't like to do it, because its more expense really

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And the graphics probably blinded everyone thinking it's a good game. But it was the beginning of the end for Sonic

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No.. That started with Sonic Heroes and where Sonic and indeed the Sonic Team lost his and their way . And imo Sonic Adv wasn't that great a looking game and had lots of issues with clipping . But it played great run at a decent pace and had some lovely textures but at it's heart it was a Saturn game moved up to the DC

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Yes. SotN voice acting is excellent.

Heck, I'll even go as far to say RE1's voice acting is really great too as it greatly added to the game experience. The B movie experience

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RE voice acting is ace adds so much to the game and really gives it that Italian Horror B-Movie feeling . SOTN voice dub inthe west it utter rubbish but the Japanese version doesn't have that issue and of course music and sound effect wise makes the N64 version sound a complete joke

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Sonic in Genesis wasn't.

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He was, just that Sega America tonned it down a lot. Many here made fun of Sonic and Humans even at the start of Sonic he was meant to have a Human girlfriend be part of a rock band and all that . And lots of things chnage with each game and the passing of time. Mario didn't even have a name for his 1st outting.

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Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

The controls aren't broken at all . And all this talk of voice acting and what not is laughable in itself. The game was a platform game and a very good one at that , its not like the laughable story and voice acting in the Mario games are any better.

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No it's not better. Just less annoying. You don't hear Mario go "Yo, Luigi, lets kick some butt, Rock on Dude, yeah" with a voice of a bratty kid. You don't even hear him say much really, just some "yahoo" and "mama mia" quotes. If he starts talking more than he needs to, yeah, i will probably hate him as much as Sonic. And it will happen, i'm sure, Miyamoto won't be around for ever.

It's not so hard to accept than not all games need voice acting. Some are fine the way they are.

And by the way. There are Mario Cartoons too. But i don't see Nintendo making him like this in their games. So that's another case of different mediums offering different things. The cartoons of both Sonic and Mario were catered to little kids. They were not like those classic Looney Toons cartoons that adults can enjoy. They were kid's stuff. The videogames, however weren't like this. But after Sonic Adventure, Sonic became more like the cartoon, thus much more childish and cringy. Mario is also more child friendly today, however they went for a more "cute" approach that doesn't look like the cartoon at all. Which is also bad, don't get me wrong, i usually can't stand it especially in 3DWorld with the cat suits and what not. He looks like a child predator trying to lure little girls. Anyway, for Sonic they went with a "look mom i'm cool" approach, almost like the cartoon, which IMO is even worse.

Personally, i just stick to Mario and Sonic games pre 6th generation.

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Originally Posted by Soulis

I never saw these commercials in my country.

And again, commercials aren't always "canon". I bet that Yuji Naka didn't even have a say in those, am i right?

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If Yuji Naka and Naoto Oshima had their way Sonic would have been in a punk band with a blonde human bimbo for a girlfriend.

And please point out the part in this video where Sonic is being bratty and obnoxious:

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Originally Posted by Soulis

No they are not. They are pretty shit. The camera is one of the worst i ever saw actually.

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Please explain what about them is bad. The camera for the most part is behind you showing you what you need to see most of the time. Only in a few spots is it less than ideal. And yes in those spots it's a royal pain to deal with. But outside of those spots it's fine. The controls are fine on the Dreamcast.

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Originally Posted by Soulis

Good thing i never played any other ports then. The original version was bad enough for me.

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It was a more enjoyable game than spam the same boring sandboxes for stars over and over again.

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Originally Posted by Barone

https://boards.openpandora.org/topic...comment=402824



https://boards.openpandora.org/topic...comment=402849



https://boards.openpandora.org/topic...comment=402980



https://boards.openpandora.org/topic...comment=402980


https://forum.beyond3d.com/posts/1827968/

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https://forum.beyond3d.com/posts/923225/


https://forum.beyond3d.com/posts/923284/

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http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/di...ing-of-wipeout

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About clipping:

https://forum.beyond3d.com/posts/1824447/

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About the lack of sub-pixel accuracy:



https://forum.beyond3d.com/posts/1825474/

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http://psx.rules.org/gte.txt

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https://forum.beyond3d.com/posts/39885/

https://forum.beyond3d.com/posts/39889/

https://forum.beyond3d.com/posts/39892/

https://forum.beyond3d.com/posts/39894/

https://forum.beyond3d.com/posts/39897/

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https://forum.beyond3d.com/posts/1102657/

https://forum.beyond3d.com/posts/1102664/

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https://forum.beyond3d.com/posts/1813181/

https://forum.beyond3d.com/posts/1813293/

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https://forum.beyond3d.com/posts/207911/

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https://forum.beyond3d.com/posts/377393/

https://forum.beyond3d.com/posts/377400/

https://forum.beyond3d.com/posts/377402/


http://www.ign.com/articles/2000/11/...ng-indy-to-n64

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"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Barone again."

That had to take some time! The clipping issue (overdraw) on the Saturn is interesting. I hadn't even considered clipping/overdraw.

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

It was a more enjoyable game than spam the same boring sandboxes for stars over and over again.

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Ah you are talking about Mario 64?

Well, i suppose we agree to disagree. IMO Mario 64 was a infinitely superior game in almost every way, except graphics of course. And it's also rather known that it's controls have yet to be bested, the stuff and acrobatics you can do in Mario 64 are not possible in either Sonic 3D games or later Mario games even (except maybe Sunshine, but even that didn't feel as good IMO). Most people agree on the controls part so i'll take it as a fact. The rest are just opinions.

And modern Sonic is obnoxious, i hate his guts. He is also a different character than old Sonic. Old Sonic didn't have green eyes or long legs and he was fatter. Both Sonics appear in Sonic Generations and you can even see them together. So different characters in my book.

I like the old Sonic.

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Originally Posted by Soulis

No it's not better. Just less annoying. You don't hear Mario go "Yo, Luigi, lets kick some butt, Rock on Dude, yeah" with a voice of a bratty

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Can't really remember any of that in Sonic Ad tbh. Looking over that Mario spoke the Dude word I'm sure

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Originally Posted by Soulis

Ah you are talking about Mario 64?

Well, i suppose we agree to disagree. IMO Mario 64 was a infinitely superior game in almost every way, except graphics of course. And it's also rather known that it's controls have yet to be bested, the stuff and acrobatics you can do in Mario 64 are not possible in either Sonic 3D games or later Mario games even (except maybe Sunshine, but even that didn't feel as good IMO). Most people agree on the controls part so i'll take it as a fact. The rest are just opinions.

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Mario 64 gets boring after about 15 minutes. The game is padded out by making you play the same levels over and over again to get more stars to unlock more levels you can spam over and over again. As a result it's a slow, boring, dull game. I've tried to play through it numerous times and I always end up getting bored after about 15-30 minutes and going "I'm not having fun, this feels more like a chore" and turn it off.

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Originally Posted by Soulis

And modern Sonic is obnoxious, i hate his guts.

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Again please point out in the video where Sonic is being obnoxious and bratty. You keep saying that but fail to bring up actual examples. It's more like you're just regurgitating what you've heard other people say instead of forming your own opinion and argument.

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Originally Posted by Soulis

He is also a different character than old Sonic. Old Sonic didn't have green eyes or long legs and he was fatter. Both Sonics appear in Sonic Generations and you can even see them together. So different characters in my book.

I like the old Sonic.

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Did you recently get caught editing the art on Sonic games at Gamestop to "fix" the issues in Sonic's new design?

No, Sonic was not near as annoying as he is now. Ads or not. (The cartoons don't count, because their interpretation always end up so much more different. ie the trash that was Earthworm Jim cartoon)

But I'll say this, I did enjoy the old Mario 2, 3 and Zelda cartoons very much, even if they were quite different from the game.

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Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

Voice acting adds a lot to a game and really added a lot to those classic LucasArts point and click games and made a world of difference to the Mega CD versions of Wing Commander and Rise of the Dragon or games like Snatcher . Good scipts and voice acting helps draw you into a game . Nintendo don't like to do it, because its more expense really

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No, I'm sorry, but voice acting really makes things worse many times too. Even if an actor is good, I find many times the voice and personality not matching the character. Especially for once voiceless characters like them from our generation a la Sonic, Mario, and the rest. Maybe not so much Mario, but I really wish Sonic never talked.

The other problem with voices is how much time they waste in videogames like RPGs. I can read faster then people talk (anyone can, because while I can read very fast, I can't absorb as fast). And for times I want to read slower or re-read things more carefully more deeper stuff, pause to absorb some crazy revelation, I can too. As in some voice acted dialog, you can't advance and pause the script at you own pace at every point.

Then there's the problem of voice actors of famous and well done characters getting changed. ie. I can't believe they changed the voice of Solid Snake with that actor. Mind. Blown.



And if Nintendo didn't do voice acting because it was more expensive, good. Better they waste their effort and resources on gameplay, graphics and music instead.

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Originally Posted by tomaitheous

That had to take some time! The clipping issue (overdraw) on the Saturn is interesting. I hadn't even considered clipping/overdraw.

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I read about that a long time ago in some gaming magazine(s). Same with the part about Saturn having the tendancy to draw polygons that weren't seen.

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Originally Posted by Soulis

And modern Sonic is obnoxious, i hate his guts. He is also a different character than old Sonic. Old Sonic didn't have green eyes or long legs and he was fatter. Both Sonics appear in Sonic Generations and you can even see them together. So different characters in my book.

I like the old Sonic.

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I agree with you fully. He's so annoying now, uninteresting and looks much lamer. When I seen them side by side in Sonic Generation, I couldn't believe how much worse the new design style really was.

This is also the main reason I wish Sonic Jam version of Sonic Adventure on Saturn got done instead of the Dreamcast version and it's drastic style change. As everything in the Saturn version was just like the good ol' Genesis days. (I think something like 4 levels were developed enough when the Saturn version got scrapped for the Dreamcast?)

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

Mario 64 gets boring after about 15 minutes.

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Get's boring in about 15 min or less these days and in replay. But back in the day, playing that game for the very first time was one heck of an experience. Same with Zelda 64. Just that after I beat both these games I never wanted to return to them anymore up to present day.

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

Again please point out in the video where Sonic is being obnoxious and bratty. You keep saying that but fail to bring up actual examples. It's more like you're just regurgitating what you've heard other people say instead of forming your own opinion and argument.

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Who cares about that. Just look at it from the perspective that he's not near as good, interesting, cool or whatever as he was in the Genesis and Saturn Sonic Jam versions. Even my Nintendo obsessed brother is disgusted and upset by how Sonic turned out in the cringe worthy Sonic Adventure. Because yes, just about every scene is cringe worthy in Sonic Adventure and every Sonic after that. How is this not obvious?

Again, explain why. Just saying "He's annoying, obnoxious, and lame!" doesn't really say a whole lot. Give examples and explain why. Playing Sonic Adventure 1 and 2 I'm not seeing him being anymore obnoxious or bratty than he already was in the older games and all the promotional material. And before you write of the ads and what not as non-canon, remember those were being used by Sega to present Sonic exactly as they wanted him to be presented and how they felt reflected his personality in the games. That behavior was how Sonic was supposed to be seen as far as Sega and Sonic Team were concerned. Your personal interpretation on the matter is irrelevant.

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Originally Posted by Thief

Get's boring in about 15 min or less these days and in replay. But back in the day, playing that game for the very first time was one heck of an experience. Same with Zelda 64. Just that after I beat both these games I never wanted to return to them anymore up to present day.

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I even found it boring back in the 90s. I remember being at my friends who had N64s before I had one and we'd be playing Mario 64 for about 15-30 minutes, getting bored, then throwing in a game like Mariokart or Starfox. Mario 64 is just boring, and it always was boring.

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Originally Posted by Thief

Who cares about that. Just look at it from the perspective that he's not near as good, interesting, cool or whatever as he was in the Genesis and Saturn Sonic Jam versions. Even my Nintendo obsessed brother is disgusted and upset by how Sonic turned out in the cringe worthy Sonic Adventure. Because yes, just about every scene is cringe worthy in Sonic Adventure and every Sonic after that. How is this not obvious?

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I'm watching the cutscenes right now, the lines aren't cringeworthy and he's not being obnoxious or bratty. Please give specific examples otherwise you're argument has no substance and boils down to "it sucks because I said so."

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

Again, explain why. Just saying "He's annoying, obnoxious, and lame!" doesn't really say a whole lot. Give examples and explain why.

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I gringed everytime Sonic spoke in Sonic Adventure back in the day when I bought the game with Dreamcast. I did not gringe at Sonic before.

Thee End.

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

I even found it boring back in the 90s. I remember being at my friends who had N64s before I had one and we'd be playing Mario 64 for about 15-30 minutes, getting bored, then throwing in a game like Mariokart or Starfox. Mario 64 is just boring, and it always was boring.

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Yes, I see this now. But not the first time I played it back in the day when this game was brand new and unlike anything else I've ever played before. But yes, replay took a massive dive after I finally got 120 stars. As in, non-existant.

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

I'm watching the cutscenes right now, the lines aren't cringeworthy and he's not being obnoxious or bratty. Please give specific examples otherwise you're argument has no substance and boils down to "it sucks because I said so."

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I can't. This is just what I remember. But if you're fine with them, then that's fine.

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Originally Posted by Thief

I gringed everytime Sonic spoke in Sonic Adventure back in the day when I bought the game with Dreamcast. I did not gringe at Sonic before.

Thee End.

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Examples? I'm looking at the cutscenes, I'm not seeing anything cringeworthy so far. A little cheesy maybe, but then again we're talking about a game for children. But here, I'll make it easy for you, here's Sonic's entire script:

http://sonic.wikia.com/wiki/Sonic_Ad...pt_%28Sonic%29

Other than some slang here and there I'm not seeing anything that terrible or outrageous. So either you don't really have an argument beyond "It's cringeworthy because I say so" or you were truly cringing at lines like "What's up?" or "Woah, where am I?". If it's the latter, then you must cringe at every freaking movie you watch and every game you play with voice acting.

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

I'm watching the cutscenes right now, the lines aren't cringeworthy and he's not being obnoxious or bratty. Please give specific examples otherwise you're argument has no substance and boils down to "it sucks because I said so."

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He is obnoxious and bratty for me. I don't care that much if you don't agree and i don't have to "prove" it to you. It's my opinion.

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

Mario 64 is just boring, and it always was boring.

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Just in your opinion. A minority opinion too.

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

"It's cringeworthy because I say so"

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Me and many more people. In fact, you are one of the very few people i have seen who think otherwise. It's fine if you like him.

I don't think that the voice acting in Sonic Adventure and many of the games mentioned is good. But game players are very selective with how they judge voice work. I talked to friends about how concerned I was about the acting when Snatcher was announced for Sega-CD. It turned out exactly as I described my worst fear as. But so many people praise it while trashing games with appropriate acting and Working Designs always gets a free pass.


Mario 64 is a lot of fun, much more so than Sonic Adventure. The control isn't great though and the N64 version is gimped by the lack of decent camera control. Mario's voice work is a bad racist stereotype, but again, that what people seem to love. Like Barret's beautifully written dialogue in FFVII that Nick Rox had begged for for years.


Although I still wanted a Sonic "adventure" game after Sonic Adventure completely failed to do so, Sonic Adventure 2 was still fun to play when it came out. Or at least some of the characters were.