Micro-64 Feature: Nintendo 64 Vs. Sega Saturn

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

So about $60. I do wonder though if Nintendo sold that at a loss knowing they'd probably make up the money in the amount it would sell.

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You calling me a liar, boy?

Not my fault if it was more expensive in your country. In my country first party titles were the cheapest ones.

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

Do you honestly think people would by a late N64 port on an expensive large cart with fewer characters and content?

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Yes. It wouldn't be more expensive than the Saturn game + the expansion cart anyway. It would probably be cheaper.

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Do you honestly think people would by a late N64 port on an expensive large cart with fewer characters and content?

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I bought many SNES games for $100 - $150 while TG-16 games were <$60 and Genesis games were $70. Although I played every console, the N64 era in particular is when Nintendo kids bought/received all kinds of crap, like all the Gameboy accessories and memory and rumble packs. The N64 also received several late ports of PSX games that were long since Greatest Hits by then and retailed for 2.5 times the price. This was a new generation of Nintendo kids/parents, along with those who had a SNES, that were accustomed to paying more for games. If Nintendo made a N64 sequel to Mario 64 and retailed it for $100 U.S., it would have been one of the best selling games on the console.

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Originally Posted by Soulis

You calling me a liar, boy?

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No, but I am stating your memory seems off.

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Originally Posted by Soulis

Not my fault if it was more expensive in your country. In my country first party titles were the cheapest ones.

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And what country would that be? This was in the US, probably the most successful region for the N64. Do you have an evidence to back up your claims?

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Originally Posted by Soulis

Yes. It wouldn't be more expensive than the Saturn game + the expansion cart anyway. It would probably be cheaper.

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Wait a minute, that's not quite fair. The RAM cart only needed to be purchased once. And then there's the 2D fighter's that don't use it like Alpha 2. This would be like me bundling the cost of the expansion pak in with every N64 game that used it to say they were more expensive because of it.

The RAM Cart + Game bundles were 7,800 Yen. That's about $73 in late 90's exchange rates. But, again that's a one time purchase. If you already had one of those games that used it, you could buy the standalone release which was 5800 Yen, or about $54. Taking US pricing trends of the time into consideration, I'd bet we'd be looking at $75 for a bundle and $50 for a standalone release if they were released outside of Japan. And again, you're getting a better version with more characters, more game modes, better sound quality, bonus features, etc.

The country is Greece. I bought OOT the first day of it's PAL release for 21.000 drachmas. I remember how the next few days a friend of mine got MK4 for the PS1 for 18.000 drachmas and it wasn't even a new release. Even Starfox was less than 20.000, despite having the ramble pack with it. That was the same for all 1st party games. I didn't have the slightest idea how big the carts were back then. All i knew was that 3rd party releases were more expensive, despite being big releases or not. Some of them were as much as 27.000 to 30.000 dr. No first party or RARE release was that expensive. Ever.

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Originally Posted by Soulis

The country is Greece. I bought OOT the first day of it's PAL release for 21.000 drachmas. I remember how the next few days a friend of mine got MK4 for the PS1 for 18.000 drachmas and it wasn't even a new release. Even Starfox was less than 20.000, despite having the ramble pack with it. That was the same for all 1st party games. I didn't have the slightest idea how big the carts were back then. All i knew was that 3rd party releases were more expensive, despite being big releases or not. Some of them were as much as 27.000 to 30.000 dr. No first party or RARE release was that expensive. Ever.

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Guess what? You paid MORE for Ocarina of Time than we paid for Ocarina of Time and more than what Japan paid for Street Fighter Zero 3 + the RAM cart:

http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m...ps4b6ihp6y.png

Aren't exchange rates fun?

Guess what. We always payed more for videogames. Sucks to be us.

And guess what else. This doesn't change anything in my previous post.

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Originally Posted by Soulis

Guess what. We always payed more for videogames. Sucks to be us.

And guess what else. This doesn't change anything in my previous post.

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Well, when we're talking about the price of N64 games costing a lot due to cartridge costs, and you go "nuh uh! In muh country they were cheaper!" and then it turns out you're prices were in fact higher, it does make you look a bit silly.

And the cost of your MK4 on PS1 was the equivalent of $10 cheaper in the US. Which is right in line with what I posted earlier with that ad. Large N64 games were more expensive. So a large cart N64 release of a 2D Fighter on the N64 with less content than it's Saturn/PS1 counterparts and coming out late would have no chance in hell of selling well.

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

Well, when we're talking about the price of N64 games costing a lot due to cartridge costs, and you go "nuh uh! In muh country FIRST PARTY TITLES they were cheaper THAN 3RD PARTY TITLES!" and then it turns out you're prices were in fact higher, it does make you look a bit silly.

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Seriously. I know my English are not perfect but it shouldn't be that hard to get what i said.

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

Large N64 games were more expensive.

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For you maybe. Not at all where i live.

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Originally Posted by Soulis

I only suggested that the 2D SF games could be ported on the N64, without problems.

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:opa:

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Originally Posted by Chilly Willy

In any case, nothing in that generation was as powerful as the N64. The main limitation was sticking to the Nintendo SDK. The few dev teams that worked on their own "microcode" for the RSP generally got results that were well above anything on any other platform out. Had someone written code for the RSP for 2D, it could have easily equally anything the Saturn VDP2 (the 2D part) was capable of.

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Originally Posted by saturndual32

Chilly, you mention it would easly equal the VDP2, would it also be able to match the VDP1+VDP2 combo for 2d stuff?

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Originally Posted by Chilly Willy

RDP >> VDP1
RSP > VDP2

So yeah, I'd say the N64 could have matched anything the Saturn could have done at it's very best. There's actually nothing magic about the RCP at all, despite all the rhetoric from SGI and Nintendo. It's a simple 32-bit MIPS core (missing multiply and divide instructions) with 4KB of local ram for instructions, and 4KB of local ram for data, paired with a nice block DMA channel, a nice vector unit, and a really nice 3D GPU. The vector unit is optimized towards 3D math and also multi-pixel manipulation. The DMA is geared towards rapid fetch and store of blocks of pixels or geometry data. Running the MIPS core from local ram means it runs all instructions at the full clock rate of the RCP.

SGI/Nintendo's "microcode" was nothing more than a list of commands you put into ram that the RSP MIPS core then DMA'd into it's local ram to execute like interpreted languages. That's why the "microcode" could be changed - it's not really microcode, but an interpreted language with the interpreter loaded into the RSP instruction ram. SGI/Nintendo tried to make the N64 look like Magic to impress people, but it's actually pretty simple once you get past all the bullshit marketing.

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Originally Posted by Chilly Willy

The N64 is capable of 2D done just like on the PS1. You could also write a custom RSP library to do 2D like the Saturn, but damned if Nintendo would let a game like that through. Virtually all "2D" games on the N64 were 3D with a fixed camera. Nintendo went in whole-hog for the 3D craze.

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Originally Posted by Soulis

Seriously. I know my English are not perfect but it shouldn't be that hard to get what i said.

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And I was talking in general. I really don't care if the pricing in your country was pants on head insane. And the fact still remains, your N64 game was about $10 more expensive than a PS1 game that was larger and on a CD. Cartridges were more expensive.

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Originally Posted by Soulis

For you maybe. Not at all where i live.

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And in your country as well, seeing as how it was still $10 more expensive than the PS1 games you brought up.

The argument was that, in my country at least, the SIZE of the carts didn't dictate their price. A 3rd party 12MB game would be more expensive than any 32MB first party or RARE title. And i think the same was in other EU countries as well.

Of course carts were more expensive than CDs. Never claimed the opposite. But we were talking about carts vs carts. Dunno why you change the subject all the time.

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Originally Posted by Soulis

The argument was that, in my country at least, the SIZE of the carts didn't dictate their price. A 3rd party 12MB game would be more expensive than any 32MB first party or RARE title. And i think the same was in other EU countries as well.

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Well when all your games are already stupidly more expensive, I guess they can eat the cost of higher ROM sizes.

In other countries and historically, ROM size has dictated game price for cartridge based games. Look at RPGs on the Genesis and SNES. They were stupidly expensive because of the larger ROM sizes. The same was true for the N64.

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Originally Posted by Barone

:opa:

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Great post. If Nintendo would have allowed a game like that to be released, the real issue it would boil down to I'd imagine would be ROM size.

Well you are wrong. Even your own example proves you wrong.

In that poster, Banjo costs 49.99 and it's a 128Mbit game. WWF Warzone is a 96Mbit game. Yet it costs 59.99.

Busted!


Edit: By the way, is that Turok 2 the one with the expansion pack with it? Because if it is, then either it was too cheap, or that Zelda is terribly overpriced. Here, Zelda was 10.000dr cheaper than Turok 2 + Expansion pack. In fact, both Banjo and Zelda cost about the same. So i'm going to go with that Zelda being overpriced in US.

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Originally Posted by Soulis

Well you are wrong. Even your own example proves you wrong.

In that poster, Banjo costs 49.99 and it's a 128Mbit game. WWF Warzone is a 96Mbit game. Yet it costs 59.99.

Busted!

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Yes, one game proves an entire history of larger ROM sizes costing more wrong. :roll:

Not sure what the deal was with WWF War Zone, but Banjo as you stated was only 16MB, so it didn't cost more than typical games of the time. Turok 2 and Ocarina of Time were both 32MB carts, and both games are listed at a higher price. Resident Evil 2 and Majora's Mask weren't cheap, neither were the Pokemon Stadiums and other 32MB+ games.

The point is, those larger ROM sizes were cost prohibitive. Few developers were willing to take that risk. I highly doubt Capcom would have taken it with Street Fighter. If Mortal Kombat Trilogy wasn't worth it for Midway, what makes you think Street Fighter would be worth it for Capcom?

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

If Mortal Kombat Trilogy wasn't worth it for Midway, what makes you think Street Fighter would be worth it for Capcom?

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UKM3 on the arcades is 25 MB and i assume that Trilogy would be about an extra 1/3 of that, if it had the same graphics quality. Now the N64 version was a 12MB cart but that's because it was a very early game. There were also 8MB carts then, so it seems they just used the biggest cart they could. There weren't 32MB carts available yet so even if they wanted, they couldn't use them. On a 32MB cart there would be enough space for an arcade quality port but that would mean a later release.

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

Yes, one game proves an entire history of larger ROM sizes costing more wrong. :roll:

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It's actually 2 games. In a poster of, what, 7? Pretty sure there are many more examples if you look it up. There are more examples in that poster too.

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Originally Posted by Soulis

UKM3 on the arcades is 25 MB and i assume that Trilogy would be about 1/3 bigger if it had the same graphics quality. Now the N64 version was a 12MB cart but that's because it was a very early game. There were also 8MB carts then, so it seems they just used the biggest cart they could. There weren't 32MB carts available yet so even if they wanted, they couldn't use them. On a 32MB cart there would be enough space for an arcade quality port but that would mean a later release.

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32MB carts were probably available at the time, they were just cost prohibitive. There was nothing really stopping developers from using them at launch other than cost. It's not like they didn't exist and then Nintendo went "Hey guys! We have 32MB carts now!" and developers went "THANK GOD!". The cold hard truth is that no one was willing to go with those because they were too expensive at the time. Which brings us back down to the main point here, Street Fighter Alpha 2 was 27MB as you pointed out to us without all the bonus content the Saturn and PS1 had. What makes you think Capcom would have gone with a 32MB cart for it in 1996 to release alongside the PS1 and Saturn ports?

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Originally Posted by Soulis

I highly doubt it was one game. Pretty sure there are many more examples if you look it up. There are more examples in that poster too.

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Yes because there's a price floor you idiot. We saw it on the Genesis, SNES, NES, Master System, etc. Your typical games didn't go over or under $50. So you're typical smaller games cost about the same. But when they start getting really big the price goes up. Sonic 1 and Sonic 2 cost the same even though Sonic 2 is 2x bigger. But Phantasy Star 4 which was 6x bigger than Sonic 1 cost close to $100 on release. See the difference? 8-16MB isn't that big of a leap, but going to 32MB is 4x the size, so it costs more.

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

What makes you think Capcom would have gone with a 32MB cart for it in 1996 to release alongside the PS1 and Saturn ports?

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What makes you think i ever said that?

I said, a SF Alpha arcade perfect port would be possible as a later release, when 32MB carts were available (or cheap enough to produce if you like).

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Originally Posted by Soulis

What makes you think i ever said that?

I said, a SF Alpha arcade perfect port would be possible as a later release, when 32MB carts were available (or cheap enough to produce if you like).

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And no one would have given a shit and it would have flopped. And it would have still probably cost more than a standard release as Ocarina of Time and Turok 2 show. It would have been a failed venture for Capcom had they done it. And you pretty much just proved my point there saying it would have been a later release. Cart size and prices prohibited Capcom from doing a good release of those 2D Fighters. By the time prices came down, it was too late.

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

Yes because theirs a price floor you idiot.

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Calm down you idiot.

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

And no one would have given a shit and it would have flopped. And it would have still probably cost more than a standard release as Ocarina of Time and Turok 2 show. It would have been a failed venture for Capcom had they done it. And you pretty much just proved my point there saying it would have been a later release. Cart size and prices prohibited Capcom from doing a good release of those 2D Fighters. By the time prices came down, it was too late.

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Okay.

I still can't find anything in there that proves the N64 technically couldn't do an arcade perfect SF Alpha game with the correct sized cart. Which was my original argument.

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Originally Posted by Soulis

I still can't find anything in there that proves the N64 couldn't do an arcade perfect SF Alpha game with the correct sized cart. Which was my original argument. A technical one, you know.

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And no one was ever saying it technically couldn't. We were telling you that cart size was the limiting factor and would have made the games too expensive. And Barone just posted and showed you that it would have probably required custom microcode to pull off Saturn level 2D. So while yes it could, we again fall into the realm of would it be worth it with the extra development costs and the extra cart size costs. You really think Capcom didn't weigh these options? They clearly did which is probably why those ports never happened. They felt it was more worth while to do an SNES port for crying out loud.

Well you said it. They made a SNES version of SF Alpha. Wasn't that cart expensive to produce?

Capcom didn't care for the N64 AT ALL. If the N64 was, somehow, more successful than the PS1 or the PS1 ended up like 3DO or something, maybe these SF games would exist, yes. The N64 was a distant 3rd place in Japan, of course they wouldn't make an expensive to produce game for it. Plus, Nintendo even pushed the console for 3D almost exclusively. As others have told you, they probably didn't want to allow too much 2D stuff in there.

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Originally Posted by Soulis

Well you said it. They made a SNES version of SF Alpha. Wasn't that cart expensive to produce?

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Not really because the cart was under 4MB with all the cuts they made. Yeah there was an expansion chip in there that raised the price, but a larger N64 cart would have still probably cost more. Had they released something like that on the N64 it would have been laughable. Having something close to the Saturn and PS1 would have cost more and been expensive to produce and expensive for customers to buy. Again look at MK Trilogy on the N64. The character animations are choppier, characters are missing, missing voices, the sound is worse, etc.

Think about it, if a 3.5MB SNES cart with an expansion chip cost close to $70 in 1996, what do you think a 32MB N64 cart would have cost?

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Originally Posted by Soulis

Capcom didn't care for the N64 AT ALL.

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Yet the went to the trouble of giving you Resident Evil 2 instead of Saturn owners.

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Originally Posted by Soulis

If the N64 was, somehow, more successful than the PS1 or the PS1 ended up like 3DO or something, maybe these SF games would exist, yes. The N64 was a distant 3rd place in Japan, of course they wouldn't make an expensive to produce game for it.

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So again you're agreeing that carts were expensive and prohibitive to a game like Street Fighter Alpha 2 being ported?

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Originally Posted by Soulis

Plus, Nintendo even pushed the console for 3D almost exclusively. As others have told you, they probably didn't want to allow too much 2D stuff in there.

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But I thought it was big mean Capcom not caring about the N64!

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

Yet the went to the trouble of giving you Resident Evil 2 instead of Saturn owners.

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Saturn got RE1. By the time the N64 RE2 version was out, the Dreamcast existed. Also the N64 port wasn't made by Capcom. And there was also a huge demand for a survival horror game like this on the N64 since it's whole lifespan, so it wasn't a huge risk.

Yes, Capcom didn't care for the N64. You must have lived under a rock (or simply you didn't have any experience with the console in it's day) if you didn't notice that, sorry.

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

So again you're agreeing that carts were expensive and prohibitive to a game like Street Fighter Alpha 2 being ported?

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In 1996 yes, since 32MB carts weren't mass produced yet. In 1998 it would be easy to do though. Heck, they would probably be able to use a 16MB cart and compress the thing (The N64 could decompress on the fly).

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Originally Posted by Soulis

Saturn got RE1. By the time the N64 RE2 version was out, Sega had already killed the Saturn for the Dreamcast. Also the N64 port wasn't made by Capcom. And there was also a huge demand for a survival horror game like this on the N64 since it's whole lifespan, so it wasn't a huge risk.

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Saturn RE1 wasn't done by Capcom either. And RE2 was being worked on but was cancelled it in 1998. You still got your release.

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Originally Posted by Soulis

Yes, Capcom didn't care for the N64. You must have lived under a rock (or simply you didn't have any experience with the console in it's day) if you didn't notice that, sorry.

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Or they didn't care for high cost of carts. Here's some more sobering facts for you. Starfox 64 was $70 on release and is a 12MB cart. Meanwhile Saturn and PS1 games were selling in the $50 range:

http://www.cnn.com/SHOWBIZ/9708/07/cyber.lat/

Still not sobering enough? Here's an IGN article from 1996 that lists prices of N64 games in numerous stores:

http://www.ign.com/articles/1996/12/...es-to-buy-them

Mortal Kombat Trilogy in it's puny 12MB cart was $70-$85 in most stores when it released in 1996. And you wanted Capcom to release a 32MB cart of Street Fighter Alpha 2?

How did those prices stack up against the Saturn and PS1 you say? Well let's take a look at some old flyers in this NeoGAF thread:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthre...1145579&page=2

Saturn and PS1 prices are in the $40-$50 range.

How you got this conversation to carts vs CDs costs... i have absolutely no idea.

Duuuuur, CDs are cheaper, duuuur, nobody knew that, it's news for everyone duuuur.

Also Starfox was a rumble pack bundle.

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

And you wanted Capcom to release a 32MB cart of Street Fighter Alpha 2?

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Of course. In 1998 they could do it, assuming they cared. And assuming the N64 crowd cared about 2D fighters at the same time which was probably not the case i believe.

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Originally Posted by Soulis

How you got this conversation to carts vs CDs costs... i have absolutely no idea.

Duuuuur, CDs are cheaper, duuuur, nobody knew that, it's news for everyone duuuur.

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Because you are refusing to accept the possibility that carts were expensive and prohibitive for a lot of these developers. You are refusing to accept that it was a true limitation of the system and had real consequences.

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Originally Posted by Soulis

Also Starfox was a rumble pack bundle.

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What did Mortal Kombat Trilogy come with then? Solid Gold turds?

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Originally Posted by Soulis

Of course. In 1998 they could do it, assuming they cared. And assuming the N64 crowd cared about 2D fighters at the same time which was probably not the case i believe.

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And by that point players would have wanted Alpha 3, which would have needed a bigger cart. 32MB carts were already more expensive, so an even bigger cart would have cost even more.

You keep saying it was Capcom not caring while ignoring the elephant in the room. The expensive cartridge format is what prevented a lot of those games from being released, not developers being petty.

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

What did Mortal Kombat Trilogy come with then? Solid Gold turds?

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Nothing. It was just an overpriced 3rd party junk port.

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

Because you are refusing to accept the possibility that carts were expensive and prohibitive for a lot of these developers. You are refusing to accept that it was a true limitation of the system and had real consequences.

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In relation to PS1 and Saturn. Had the N64 be more successful and had a huge market share, everyone would be more than happy to produce these expensive carts. They were producing carts for a decade and they were all fine.

And don't tell me N64 carts are more expensive than Genesis or SNES carts... a SNES cart in 1991 was just as expensive as a N64 cart in 1996. All carts were expensive, not just the N64's.

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

And by that point players would have wanted Alpha 3, which would have needed a bigger cart. 32MB carts were already more expensive, so an even bigger cart would have cost even more.

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You are ignoring compression. SF Alpha 3 is 20MB compressed (Not saying it would be as compressed in the cart, but it does allow for a lot of compression compared to something like MK).

Guess I could add that I sadly bought the wrong version of MKT (N64). It even had missing levels if I remember correctly. Plus they had to combine Sub-Zero (which is actually a plus and maybe the reason I choose N64 version. That and the PS1 gamepad sucks balls for 2D fighter and games. So the correct choice of MKT is the later released Saturn version).

One cool thing you could do on the N64 was uppercut an enemy up to a third stage. Couldn't do this on the other versions.

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Originally Posted by Soulis

Nothing. It was just an overpriced 3rd party junk port.

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Then what were Mario 64, Wave Race, and Pilot Wings 64? According to the same article those were in the $60-$75 range. And those were all 8MB carts!

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Originally Posted by Soulis

In relation to PS1 and Saturn. Had the N64 be more successful and had a huge market share, everyone would be more than happy to produce these expensive carts. They were producing carts for a decade and they were all fine.

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Those carts were smaller and already were getting expensive to produce. RPGs on the SNES and Genesis were reaching prices of $100. Same with a lot of other games.

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Originally Posted by Soulis

And don't tell me N64 carts are more expensive than Genesis or SNES carts... a SNES cart in 1991 was just as expensive as a N64 cart in 1996. All carts were expensive, not just the N64's.

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N64 carts were bigger though. That would make them more expensive. If developers put out SNES and Genesis sized carts on the N64 for their 2D fighters with similar cuts it would be a complete freaking joke when compared to the Saturn and PS1 versions.

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Originally Posted by Soulis

You are ignoring compression. SF Alpha 3 is 20MB compressed.

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Compressed in what manner? A manner the N64 can quickly decompress? Need I again remind you that the Saturn port is over 100MB in size for just the game data, not counting audio? Do you think there wasn't any compression going on there? The music alone is another 400MB and it is compressed heavily on the Saturn.

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

Then what were Mario 64, Wave Race, and Pilot Wings 64? According to the same article those were in the $60-$75 range. And those were all 8MB carts!

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I only paid 18.000dr for Mario. Was one of the cheapest launch games in EU.

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

N64 carts were bigger though. That would make them more expensive. If developers put out SNES and Genesis sized carts on the N64 for their 2D fighters with similar cuts it would be a complete freaking joke when compared to the Saturn and PS1 versions.

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Just... wow. And that means 3DS carts must cost 1 billion each right? It's not like they are 100 times bigger or something. I mean, it's not like ROM chips are getting cheaper per MB as technology improves. Great logic there.

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

Compressed in what manner? A manner the N64 can quickly decompress? Need I again remind you that the Saturn port is over 100MB in size for just the game data, not counting audio? Do you think there wasn't any compression going on there? The music alone is another 400MB and it is compressed heavily on the Saturn.

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Your moving goal posts abilities are insane. Who the F talked about porting the Saturn version to the N64? I thought we were talking about arcade ports?

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Originally Posted by Soulis

I only paid 19.000dr for Mario. Was one of the cheapest games in EU.

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That would again be about $60. The low end of the range I posted. Again PS1 and Saturn games were $10-$15 cheaper at that time. Try again.

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Originally Posted by Soulis

Just... wow. And that means 3DS carts must cost 1 billion each right? I mean these are like 100 times bigger. I mean, it's not like ROM chips are getting cheaper per MB as technology improves. Great logic there.

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Yeah because 15-20 years later doesn't make a difference right? We're talking about the N64, a system that was on the market at the same time as some of those expensive SNES games and only 2 years later for those expensive Genesis games. That's not enough time for the price to drop that dramatically.

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Originally Posted by Soulis

Your moving goal posts abilities are insane. Who the F talked about porting the Saturn version to the N64? I thought we were talking about arcade ports?

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And I'm telling you that it wouldn't fly that way. You really think people would pay more for a large N64 cart port of Street Fighter Alpha 3 in 1999 with less content than the Saturn, PS1, or Dreamcast versions? If it was to be competitive, it would have to have that additional content.

I think we should avoid 1:1 size comparisons between carts and CDs because it was a common practice to have redundant data into CDs in order to reduce the number of seeks needed to load a given stage/level of a game.

Arcade ROMs used to be fully decompressed BITD.

I wonder if one could use the N64 vector unit as a dedicated decompression processor.

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

That would again be about $60. The low end of the range I posted. Again PS1 and Saturn games were $10-$15 cheaper at that time. Try again.

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Try what? You are way off topic here. Not interested.

On topic: in 1998, a SFA2/3 port would be perfectly possible on the N64.

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Originally Posted by Barone

Arcade ROMs used to be fully decompressed BITD.

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When i said SFA3 is 20MB compressed, i meant the ROM. The MAME zip file is indeed 20MB while the game is 45. That means it could probably be compressed about as much in a N64 cart. Other games are less "compress friendly". UMK3 is 20MB compressed and 25MB uncompressed. But all SF games seem to have a much better compression ratio.

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Originally Posted by Barone

I think we should avoid 1:1 size comparisons between carts and CDs because it was a common practice to have redundant data into CDs in order to reduce the number of seeks needed to load a given stage/level of a game.

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Looking at the data on the CDs though it doesn't look like that's the case. I'm not seeing a lot of redundant files or anything. The Saturn port is a 4MB RAM cart game, so I wouldn't be surprised if it didn't do that due to it not being a major issue. Throw in the music taking up as much space as it does I don't think they could have afforded to be that wasteful.

Still, the point is that an N64 cart would have needed to be larger than the Arcade ROM to be competitive with the PS1 and Saturn ports by including the additional content. Throw in the fact that the Arcade ROMs are already pushing us into 32MB and 64MB carts and you would have a cart space problem.

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Originally Posted by Barone

Arcade ROMs used to be fully decompressed BITD.

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True, but there is a limit to how much you can compress something and have the system still be able to decompress it quickly. Otherwise you'd end up with something like Street Fighter Alpha 2 on the SNES with pauses to decompress data.

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Originally Posted by Barone

I wonder if one could use the N64 vector unit as a dedicated decompression processor.

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Can the N64 accommodate Expansion chips? If so you could probably go that route for decompression.

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Originally Posted by Soulis

Try what? You are way off topic here. Not interested.

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The point was that even the small N64 games were expensive in 1996.

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Originally Posted by Soulis

On topic: in 1998, a SFA2/3 port would be perfectly possible on the N64.

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Alpha 2 would have been irrelevant by that point, and Alpha 3 would have probably needed at least a 32MB cart, especially if it was to compete with the Saturn and PS1 ports. That would have been expensive.

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

Still, the point is that an N64 cart would have needed to be larger than the Arcade ROM to be competitive with the PS1 and Saturn ports by including the additional content.

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Not really, an Arcade perfect port with all the animations and no loading would be perfectly fine. And you also ignore the compression. They would probably be able to squeeze a few extra modes and characters using it.

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

That would have been expensive.

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32MB carts became pretty common in 1998 after Zelda and i'm sure a big company like Capcom would be able to manage.

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

The point was that even the small N64 games were expensive in 1996.

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About as expensive as SNES carts a few years prior. Nothing new there.

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Originally Posted by Soulis

Not really, an Arcade perfect port with all the animations and no loading would be perfectly fine.

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Not when it costs $20 more than another arcade perfect port that has more content.

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Originally Posted by Soulis

32MB carts became pretty common in 1998 after Zelda and i'm sure a big company like Capcom would be able to manage.

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Zelda was late 1998 going into 1999. Yeah the Saturn port of SFA3 came late in mid 1999, the PS1 port was released in 1998. And again those 32MB carts were more expensive. Especially when considering Alpha 3 would have probably needed a 64MB cart if there was no compression used. And it would definitely be pushing it if the additional Saturn and PS1 content was thrown in.

Yeah RE2 was impressive, a lot of it's data was also redundant data across both discs and a decent amount of FMV. It's a slower paced game where decompression time isn't as big of an issue as say an Arcade Fighter.

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Originally Posted by Soulis

About as expensive as SNES carts a few years prior. Nothing new there.

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Why do you think so many developers after the 16-bit era were fleeing to CD-ROM based systems? Carts were too expensive.

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

Why do you think so many developers after the 16-bit era were fleeing to CD-ROM based systems? Carts were too expensive.

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They did pretty well selling those carts for more than a decade. They would do as well selling more carts if the N64 had the majority of the market share. Also, the 100% reduced piracy would probably even the extra costs for them. Yeah, i think they would be OK.

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Originally Posted by Soulis

They did pretty well selling those carts for more than a decade. They would do as well selling more carts if the N64 had the majority of the market share. Also, the 100% reduced piracy would probably even the extra costs for them. Yeah, i think they would be OK.

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Yet we had developers pretty much begging for cheaper media such as CD-ROMs in the later years of the 16-bit era. We had SNK releasing the Neo Geo CD to be able to release cheaper games too. Not to mention the Saturn with the lowest market share of all 3 systems still had more games released for it than the N64.

It worked for the 16-bit era because that's all you really had. You didn't have major competitors offering cheaper media. Yeah there were CD-based add-ons, but they were expensive for people to buy and didn't take off as well. Still though, that didn't stop developers from giving decent support to the Sega CD and PC-Engine CD. Maybe because it was cheap and not that big of a development undertaking?

Carts were expensive to produce, there's no getting around that. With two serious competitors that could offer cheap media like CD-ROMs it's really no surprise many developers like Capcom and Square Enix avoided the N64 with a lot of their games until ROM prices went down years later.

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

It worked for the 16-bit era because that's all you really had.

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You also had cassettes and floppies.

Ok so if carts were so expensive to produce and developers/publishers didn't want them, then why did they become the format of choice for consoles? I mean there were already much cheaper formats out there. A Floppy disk could be as big as 800KB (and later twice as much), that's way more than what the NES could do or even early 16bit carts. I wonder why didn't they stick with a similar disc based format that was cheaper and had much bigger space?

It's a honest question. I don't know the answer. But if i had to guess, that would be piracy.

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Originally Posted by Soulis

Try what? You are way off topic here. Not interested.

On topic: in 1998, a SFA2/3 port would be perfectly possible on the N64.

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Street Fighter Alpha 2 on the SNES was gimped, because of the 40Mb cart size. The music in that game is pretty bad, because it had to be cut to fit the game on a 40 Mb cart.