Help Shocker build a retro gaming PC!

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Originally Posted by Guntz

If it's anything like the MT-32, you'd normally need the hard to find MPU-401 adapter, but you can just use a Soundblaster-16 card. Again, you NEED a motherboard with an ISA slot. Don't listen to that guy up there, you will almost never get DOS level sound working properly with a PCI card.

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Sorry, but that's just wrong. You can get DOS drivers that emulate SB16 for SB Live and PCI128 cards here: http://easymamecab.mameworld.info/html/snddosdr.htm These were available on the Creative website back in the day and I remember installing them the first time I bought a SB Live.

I have a PCI128 in my Win98 machine now and I have never had a single issue with sound in a DOS game. And a PCI128 or SB Live will have much better sound support in Win 98.

Both of those cards probably cost $5 on ebay.

Pretty much all games in the mid to somewhat late 90s ran on DOS at a time when PCI soundcards were the norm. It's a bit silly to think that nobody had sound for half a decade!

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Originally Posted by Da_Shocker

Thanks Guntz the SC-55 has an MT-32 module in it but it lacks the programming of the Mt-32. But what about the videocard I gotta real crappy S3 card and I want the best 2D/3D pci card I can get.

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Not really having the time to do major thread reading on this, but just to say it depends on what cpu set up you have going. Pentium 1-2 and K6-II or III era are well suited for a Voodoo 1 or 2 paired with a Matrox Mystique or S3 Trio64 or S3 Verge. Pentium III/Celeron and AMD Athlon/Duron in the 450 mhz to 700 mhz range benefit best from Voodoo 3, Banshee, or TNT 2 Ultra cards. With Pentium 2-3 Slot 1 with AGP slots you have to be careful on what you stick on some of those boards AGP wise, as some boards had issues powering certain cards at full load.

Past 700 mhz cpu range you might as well go with a Geforce 2 GTS , Geforce 3, or Geforce 4 TI 4200. For Geforce cards from those lines, when used in Windows 98/ME anyway, one of the best drivers you can use for them is Detonator Driver v45.23. Add the coolbits registry to enable overclocking and the option to disable vsync for Direct 3D. If I remember right you need to do that for Shogo and a few other titles that dont like Vsync being locked on Geforce cards.

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Originally Posted by JumpingRyle

Sorry, but that's just wrong. You can get DOS drivers that emulate SB16 for SB Live and PCI128 cards here: http://easymamecab.mameworld.info/html/snddosdr.htm These were available on the Creative website back in the day and I remember installing them the first time I bought a SB Live.

I have a PCI128 in my Win98 machine now and I have never had a single issue with sound in a DOS game. And a PCI128 or SB Live will have much better sound support in Win 98.

Both of those cards probably cost $5 on ebay.

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What you just described is not particularly easy to do or commonly available. People often recommend the ISA SB16 card because it is extremely easy to use and most DOS games will work with it. PCI solutions are almost never completely compatible.

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Originally Posted by JumpingRyle

Pretty much all games in the mid to somewhat late 90s ran on DOS at a time when PCI soundcards were the norm. It's a bit silly to think that nobody had sound for half a decade!

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DOS died off quickly after Windows 95 was released. ISA sound cards were still very common by that time, the SB16 works great even on Windows 98SE. You have your history backwards.

According to the first post, he has a Compaq Presario 5225 which had a 380MHz AMD K6-2.

I already suggested a Voodoo 3. It has great 2d support for older DOS games and can handle 1998-ish 3d games well.

I bought a TNT2 actually. I have upgraded the ram to 384MB and the CPU to the 550 K2. One thing I don't get is that there the soft syth is said not to work in DOS and it didn't work in MKII in terms of getting music but I get music in Skunny Kart and Duke Nukem 1, 2 and 3D.

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Originally Posted by Guntz

What you just described is not particularly easy to do or commonly available. People often recommend the ISA SB16 card because it is extremely easy to use and most DOS games will work with it. PCI solutions are almost never completely compatible.

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What's difficult? Installing the DOS drivers is pretty simple if you know how to use DOS. And please tell me of one game that is not compatible with the PC128 DOS drivers.

I do agree, however, that if the OP has an ISA slot in his PC (which he does), then it's more authentic to use a SB16. I was pointing out that you don't NEED a mobo with an ISA slot for a Win 98 machine.

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DOS died off quickly after Windows 95 was released. ISA sound cards were still very common by that time, the SB16 works great even on Windows 98SE. You have your history backwards.

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That's silly. DOS didn't die off. Windows 98 ran on it! All of those games you think you were playing in Windows, you were actually playing in DOS THROUGH Windows. That's why some old '97 and '98 games like Carmageddon, Grim Fandango etc. etc. (Starcraft and Half-life appear to run natively in Windows) can be run in DOSBox now. Because it's a DOS game.

I do have an Audigy 2 Platinum not sure why I would use the PCI128 over that but I am open to suggestions.

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Originally Posted by JumpingRyle

What's difficult? Installing the DOS drivers is pretty simple if you know how to use DOS. And please tell me of one game that is not compatible with the PC128 DOS drivers.

I do agree, however, that if the OP has an ISA slot in his PC (which he does), then it's more authentic to use a SB16. I was pointing out that you don't NEED a mobo with an ISA slot for a Win 98 machine.

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That's the thing, drivers. If you're using 95 or 98, you don't actually need drivers for a classic SB16 card. A lot of DOS games work fine with a SB16 as is too. I think only in Windows 3.11 would you need a SB16 driver. Needing drivers and documentation to activate the SB16 mode on the SB128 puts it at a disadvantage.

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That's silly. DOS didn't die off. Windows 98 ran on it! All of those games you think you were playing in Windows, you were actually playing in DOS THROUGH Windows. That's why some old '97 and '98 games like Carmageddon, Grim Fandango etc. etc. (Starcraft and Half-life appear to run natively in Windows) can be run in DOSBox now. Because it's a DOS game.

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Except you can't actually run those games in real MS-DOS, you still have to run them from Windows 98. You can boot into MS-DOS after loading 98, but it's really pointless. Windows 95 spelled the end of primitive old MS-DOS, seldom were there any true MS-DOS games coming out after that. Needing hacks or emulators to run Windows games in DOS doesn't count.

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Originally Posted by Guntz

That's the thing, drivers. If you're using 95 or 98, you don't actually need drivers for a classic SB16 card. A lot of DOS games work fine with a SB16 as is too. I think only in Windows 3.11 would you need a SB16 driver. Needing drivers and documentation to activate the SB16 mode on the SB128 puts it at a disadvantage.

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True. And installing DOS drivers does require a bit of knowledge that isn't so well documented these days.

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Except you can't actually run those games in real MS-DOS, you still have to run them from Windows 98. You can boot into MS-DOS after loading 98, but it's really pointless. Windows 95 spelled the end of primitive old MS-DOS, seldom were there any true MS-DOS games coming out after that. Needing hacks or emulators to run Windows games in DOS doesn't count.

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I think most games from the Win 95 era were still DOS native. I know Die by the Sword (I love that game) and Sierra's sidescroller Hunter Hunted had to be run through Win 95, but most games from then can be run directly from DOS. Most games released after Win 98 required being run through Windows due to DirectX. MS released DirectX with Win 95 but it didn't really catch on at that point.

Anyway, my point was that PCI soundcards, which became more popular in '97 and '98, probably would not have been as popular if they did not support games from just a few years prior. SB16 emulation was definitely an important feature.

Personally, while you can use a Ensoniq AudioPCI aka SoundBlaster Pci 128 and all its variations for Dos games, I'd rather not unless it was all you got on hand. It has great midi quality and all, but its FM emulation for music in Dos games is trollishly bad at times. Creative's PCI 512 and SB Live are much better, but personally neither really stand up completely to the Aureal Vortex 1&2 for Dos games in either Windows or in Dos mode after exiting out of Windows.

As far as ISA cards go, SB16 is pretty nice, but I'd rather use an AWE32 at least, or AWE64, which I prefer for ISA cards due to the extra features and performance, cleaner sound, and smaller size. Also, to be perfectly honest, the SB16 can be a drag for later Direct X games due to lacking EAX and A3D and other performance issues, and it's not a very clean sounding card. If you really must use one, run one with a PCI sound card installed also and just do a dual boot, one for Windows, one for Dos, and just have the SB16 disabled in Windows to free up resources. Also to note, this post is coming from a guy who has about 40 different sound cards for both ISA and PCI.

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Originally Posted by Guntz

Except you can't actually run those games in real MS-DOS, you still have to run them from Windows 98. You can boot into MS-DOS after loading 98, but it's really pointless. Windows 95 spelled the end of primitive old MS-DOS, seldom were there any true MS-DOS games coming out after that. Needing hacks or emulators to run Windows games in DOS doesn't count.

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That is a pretty funny and very incorrect statement. There were plenty of Dos titles released after Windows 95 was released that can install and run in pure Dos and do not need Windows in any way. There are some that wont run in Windows at all even (Crusader for example).

Command & Conquer: Red Alert, Carmageddon, Quake, Strife, Death Rally, CHASM The Rift, Descent II, The Terminator: SkyNET, Elder Scrolls: Daggerfall, Elder Scrolls Legend: Battlespire, Burnout Championship Drag Racing, Fallout, X-Men COTA, D (yes, that game by WARP), Mega Race 2, Wing Commander 4, Final Doom, T-Mek, Grand Theft Auto, Shadow Warrior, Star Trek Pinball, Screamer 2 and Screamer Rally, Crusader No Regret, Blood, The Need for Speed: Special Edition, etc all run in pure Dos fine. I could go on and on about that, and keep listing games that dont need Windows, but there is no point. Anyone with google and/or a vast pc game library, such as myself, knows better.

Thanks Michael Helgeson i do have to ask which one is better a Roland SCD-15 / SCB-55 or a Yamaha Waveforce DB50XG.

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Originally Posted by Michael Helgeson

That is a pretty funny and very incorrect statement. There were plenty of Dos titles released after Windows 95 was released that can install and run in pure Dos and do not need Windows in any way. There are some that wont run in Windows at all even (Crusader for example).

Command & Conquer: Red Alert, Carmageddon, Quake, Strife, Death Rally, CHASM The Rift, Descent II, The Terminator: SkyNET, Elder Scrolls: Daggerfall, Elder Scrolls Legend: Battlespire, Burnout Championship Drag Racing, Fallout, X-Men COTA, D (yes, that game by WARP), Mega Race 2, Wing Commander 4, Final Doom, T-Mek, Grand Theft Auto, Shadow Warrior, Star Trek Pinball, Screamer 2 and Screamer Rally, Crusader No Regret, Blood, The Need for Speed: Special Edition, etc all run in pure Dos fine. I could go on and on about that, and keep listing games that dont need Windows, but there is no point. Anyone with google and/or a vast pc game library, such as myself, knows better.

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Alright, you win, but I'm not wrong that people soon forgot all about DOS when Windows 95 came out. Given the choice, people would rather run everything from Windows 95 instead of MS-DOS. Even doing .bat files is easier in Windows.

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Originally Posted by Da_Shocker

Thanks Michael Helgeson i do have to ask which one is better a Roland SCD-15 / SCB-55 or a Yamaha Waveforce DB50XG.

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By chance I just ran across this: http://www.queststudios.com/quest/midi.html

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Sound Canvas vs. Waveforce

This is a very hard match up. I have little personal experience with the Yamaha. Most of what I can say was picked off of Tom or the Usenet (about 2 years ago). Unlike many other products (Apple vs PC), the debates of these two cards are very civil. People generally acknowledge that both are high quality products, and you will not be disappointed with either. However, the Usenet seemed to form some general descriptions about the two.

The Sound Canvas will give you more compatibility with existing songs in the world. Also, there is a lot of software written to take advantage of the GS features. The Sound Canvas is considered to have a very good piano, very good orchestra instruments, and very good wind instruments.

The Waveforce is considered to have very good synth instruments, very good electric instruments (like guitars), and very good sound effects. XG also is popular with some musicians because it offers more control that GS didn't allow for.

For both cards, people liked the drumsets, and I think both cards were criticized for their Brass sections, claiming that they still need improvement (not that they are that bad).

Once again, it is a very hard call. Some people get both. You really should listen to them first. The Yamaha cards seem to be considerably cheaper which is an incentive to buy. However, if you want a Sound Canvas and don't want to pay the higher price, I recommend you complain to Roland and then either scout out music stores or mail order, or find a used one.

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I think that was written a while ago, so the pricing info might be out of date.

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Originally Posted by JumpingRyle

By chance I just ran across this: http://www.queststudios.com/quest/midi.html



I think that was written a while ago, so the pricing info might be out of date.

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Thanks my Compaq has the S-XG50 soft syth and I have bought a SC-55 and an MT-100. An internal card sounds much better due to the less space and power it would require.