Super retro trio tear down - Taking apart the SR3.

I recently bought the Super Retro Trio and took it apart, voiding my warranty for you guy's enjoyment! ( And mine too of course )

Following are some pictures of the insides. I tried making them as good as my limited equipment and skills will allow.
I also filmed myself taking it apart while rambling about, If you ever feel like watching my noob attempts at youtube and hear my non-native english :p
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdPA...ature=youtu.be

There are some retro trio that will have a problem with the NES sound in some games. Apparently some other SR3 do not have this problem. This is still a little mysterious but it is believed that this is caused by there being two different Variants of the NOAC being used for those consoles. My personal SR3 does have this glitch. Would be interesting if there are observable differences in the PCB of a console without the audio problem.


PLEASE CLICK PICTURES TO HAVE FULL SIZE VIEWS.

Whole PCB, Top view.
http://i.imgur.com/8B1lYQ0l.jpg

Bottom view
http://i.imgur.com/w5x7aitl.jpg

NES Board.
http://i.imgur.com/6rvLpval.jpg

NES Board Underside
http://i.imgur.com/JLV6Tb0l.jpg

SNES Board
http://i.imgur.com/oGezUGul.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/wqhG0JPl.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/23zSBH5l.jpg

SNES Board Underside
http://i.imgur.com/dVTSfkhl.jpg

Genesis Board
http://i.imgur.com/bOt6bJhl.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Bcc6WJul.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/yg0Phbnl.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/12HDYd9l.jpg

Genesis Board Underside

http://i.imgur.com/kRWaXoul.jpg

Is this very different than the Retron 3?

This is very similar to the latest RetroN3 hardware revision (we're at Version 4 now), but the Super Retro Trio still has better analog circuitry than the RetroN3, so it's a better choice (unless you end up with one that has an NOAC with a bad APU in it).

The KM68U1000 RAM chips on the Super NES board, though, are of critical concern. These chips are running out of their absolute maximum specs with 5V VCC and 5V I/O, a perfect mix to cause premature failure of this RAM.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ace

The KM68U1000 RAM chips on the Super NES board, though, are of critical concern. These chips are running out of their absolute maximum specs with 5V VCC and 5V I/O, a perfect mix to cause premature failure of this RAM.

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You'd think they have stress tested the things to make sure they can handle it in the long term but you never know with those clone hardwares...

Cheap Chinese stuff stress tested?

They give us cell phone chargers that electrocute us and catch fire. They want us dead, and our money back.

I have done all kinds of things on the sega board and could not get the damn S-video jailbars out.
This is seriously annoying.
Even if I completely disconnect Chroma, they are still there but in black and white.
I will try adding electrolytic caps as termination for chroma and luma tomorrow.

Ace, do you know if the TCT-6801 GOAC outputs RGB somehow? I bet it doesnt...
I wish I could probe the GOAC legs with my scope, but the damn legs are so close I would definitely short legs together with the probe.
I can barely insert a sheet of paper between the legs.
I have an idea where a very thin but rigid piece of material could be coated with a conductive paint on only one side and connected to the probe. Inserting this between two pins would only contact one and isolate the other. Problem is they are so close here that anything I could come up with would likely be too thick or too fragile.

To my knowledge, the best the TCT-6801 can do is S-Video. Of the GOACs I've come across, I know of only the SM801-A1 that is GUARANTEED to output RGB, and I'm going to get myself a few of these chips so I can design my own Geniclone. It's possible the TCT6035 and TecToy-580G also output RGB, but I can't say for sure.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ace

This is very similar to the latest RetroN3 hardware revision (we're at Version 4 now), but the Super Retro Trio still has better analog circuitry than the RetroN3, so it's a better choice (unless you end up with one that has an NOAC with a bad APU in it).

The KM68U1000 RAM chips on the Super NES board, though, are of critical concern. These chips are running out of their absolute maximum specs with 5V VCC and 5V I/O, a perfect mix to cause premature failure of this RAM.

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Is there a PCB picture of the version 4?

No, but I can get you some. It's actually got green-colored boards now instead of the blue boards of the previous revisions.

However, it has come to my attention that there exists a RetroN3 Version 2.5 with the NES board of the RetroN3 Version 2 and a green-colored version of the RetroN3 Version 3's Super NES/Genesis board. The overall performance is the same as the RetroN3 Version 2, though.

If you can find the time to do that it would be awesome. Thanks.

I got a trio with a bad noac and the second unit no problems audio wise for castlevania no video with a real cart.
I can even get rad race 2 to boot fine but, glitches in game. The board is the same as i opened mine just to check and no difference.
I will mod mine to fix the easy issues. But, could you add a super cic for the snes to make it region free.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ace

The KM68U1000 RAM chips on the Super NES board, though, are of critical concern. These chips are running out of their absolute maximum specs with 5V VCC and 5V I/O, a perfect mix to cause premature failure of this RAM.

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Would it be possible to add some sort of heat sinks to it to help cool the chip? and / or a very silent fan pushing some air through the case?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sean

I got a trio with a bad noac and the second unit no problems audio wise for castlevania no video with a real cart.
I can even get rad race 2 to boot fine but, glitches in game. The board is the same as i opened mine just to check and no difference.

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The NOAC is missing CIRAM /CE and /A13 on the cartridge slot. You can't restore CIRAM /CE as the signal never leaves the NOAC, but you can generate /A13 with a 74HC04. Doing so will allow Castlevania III to work.

If I may ask, are the paint jobs any different between the two Super Retro Trios you have?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sean

I will mod mine to fix the easy issues. But, could you add a super cic for the snes to make it region free.

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It's already done for you. There's a PIC12F629 already on the Super NES board just behind the cartridge slot.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kouen Hasuki

Would it be possible to add some sort of heat sinks to it to help cool the chip? and / or a very silent fan pushing some air through the case?

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While that will extend the life of the RAM, it still doesn't hide the fact the RAM is running out of spec. In fact, at 5V, the KM68U1000s are being run beyond their absolute maximum ratings, which is 4.6V maximum. Samsung themselves warns that running the RAM past 4.6V may cause irreversible damage to the chips. If you can find TSOP versions of the plain KM681000s, those are 5V chips and should be used in place of the KM68U1000s.

Do you know for sure that the memory is actually running at 5V? The interface could actually be 3.3V... No need to spread statements without confirmation.

Just noticed the mitsubishi rams are 3.3V too. Maybe the system is full 3.3V

I will stuck with my Retro Duo for now

When Retro-Bit ever does fix the Audio Problem on all SRT I'll get one

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ace

While that will extend the life of the RAM, it still doesn't hide the fact the RAM is running out of spec. In fact, at 5V, the KM68U1000s are being run beyond their absolute maximum ratings, which is 4.6V maximum. Samsung themselves warns that running the RAM past 4.6V may cause irreversible damage to the chips. If you can find TSOP versions of the plain KM681000s, those are 5V chips and should be used in place of the KM68U1000s.

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Could be worth checking the ram itself see if it is being run that high, if it is it might be possible to mod it to undervolt the ram to 4.6v?

I have tested pal games on my trio and some don't get past the title screen.
I used the smurf game and a few other pal carts. Also, the trio I have is the blue/white white unit.
the first, blue/white had and the same glitched audio that even affected Mario 3.
Also, I just noticed on the snes side their is no Samsung ram but, a SEC Korea 940 what has rph00581 number code on it.
Even, on the genesis side the video does not freak out when I play mega man the willy wars on it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jorge Nuno

Do you know for sure that the memory is actually running at 5V? The interface could actually be 3.3V... No need to spread statements without confirmation.

Just noticed the mitsubishi rams are 3.3V too. Maybe the system is full 3.3V

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The Mitsubishi RAM is not 3.3V. They're 5V chips, and I checked the datasheet to make sure.

And yes, the RAM does run on 5V. There is no regulation anywhere on the Super NES board and the RAM receives 5V, confirmed with a multimeter test.

Jorge, you should know me by now, I NEVER put things out like this unless I've personally tested it, and if something is purely theoretical, I will outright mention it.

EDIT:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sean

I have tested pal games on my trio and some don't get past the title screen.

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Is it me or do people not understand that these hardware clones are NOT PAL clones? They are made to output NTSC video and run NTSC games. If you want PAL compatibility as well, you have to mod your console.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sean

Also, I just noticed on the snes side their is no Samsung ram but, a SEC Korea 940 what has rph00581 number code on it.

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Do you have pictures of the RAM in question? I'll go look up their datasheets.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sean

Even, on the genesis side the video does not freak out when I play mega man the willy wars on it.

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There are no capacitors on the video outputs unlike the RetroGen Adapter, which uses a capacitor that's got too little capacitance and causes varying degrees of video sync problems depending on the TV used.

Alright alright, if you actually verified it then good.
.. But this datasheet still says the other ram is 3.3V as well...:

http://pdf.datasheetcatalog.com/data...on/mXqwsvu.pdf

EDIT: wrong link before

...what in hell?

Well screw you, Mitsubishi. I was looking at the datasheet for the 5V version of that RAM without even knowing it. I'm going to check the VCC on those chips now.

EDIT: It's a direct 5V just like the Samsung RAM. Man, these clones are going to have one hell of a short lifespan due to running these RAM chips out of their absolute maximum ratings.

Thanks for showing me the correct datasheet, Jorge.

Here is the picture of the snes side ram chip
http://i741.photobucket.com/albums/x...ps2d0a47fc.jpg

How, would I make the unit work with pal games ?
It's the year 2014 and they could have wired the region to the switch they have for the genesis region select.

I like the trio more than I thought I would but, the only super thing about it is the audio does not suck compared to other clones.

I'd say the easiest way to "solve" this is to reduce supply voltage to 4~4.5V, while keeping the analog section at 5.
A heatsink won't do anything here, these ICs aren't overheating

It's still not guaranteed to not fail prematurely, it would require to reduce the voltage further, but then there are other problems. Definite solution is obviously getting 5V RAMs

I checked what ram chips I have in mine and they are the same Samsung 3.3v chips Ace described. That is pretty silly of them to design the machine with an inappropriate chip.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MaxWar

I checked what ram chips I have in mine and they are the same Samsung 3.3v chips Ace described. That is pretty silly of them to design the machine with an inappropriate chip.

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what color paint your system maybe mine is the fix for that issue.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sean

what color paint your system maybe mine is the fix for that issue.

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Mine is the black and gray, with bad nes APU :(

Pretty sad with my unit so far.

-NES has bad APU
-SNES has out of spec memory
-Genesis has horrible S-video jailbars and noisy audio.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MaxWar

Mine is the black and gray, with bad nes APU :(

Pretty sad with my unit so far.

-NES has bad APU
-SNES has out of spec memory
-Genesis has horrible S-video jailbars and noisy audio.

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I had a feeling that it was too good to be true. I've been seeing alot of people proclaim that the system is quite good. But something told me that once someone on the forums got a hold of the system, we would discover the truth regarding the system's build quality. Even though I have no interest in the system, the one thing that is appealing about the Super Retro Trio is the ability to add scan lines. That is a pretty neat feature if you only have an HDTV.

Anyways, I'm enjoying the fact that you are poking and proding the innards of this Frankenstein to get at the truth! Let the dissection continue! :p

I was able to find a datasheet for the KM68U1000CLG-8L at http://www.digchip.com/datasheets/pa...1000CLG-8L.php
And it seems that they run at 4 to 6v just fine.

Also, The MITSUBISHI chips are M5M5256DVP-85VXL on my unit http://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datashe...DVP-85VXL.html
and they run at 3 to 4.6 V and 4.6v being the max.

I think they have a revised model of the trio like what i have or the trio is a gamble with what chips your going to get.

Running 3.3V devices at 5V will kill them over time from over-voltage. However, from talking to TmEE and some other research it appears that using 3.3V devices, with a proper 3.3V power supply, they will draw excess current from the 5V devices, shortening their lifespans, and those are often much less replaceable (custom chips, ROMs). It might be worth checking current going through the lines and seeing which is really worse for which side.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sean

I was able to find a datasheet for the KM68U1000CLG-8L at http://www.digchip.com/datasheets/pa...1000CLG-8L.php
And it seems that they run at 4 to 6v just fine.

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Where do you see that?
I cannot find such information on this datasheet.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MaxWar

Where do you see that?
I cannot find such information on this datasheet.

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KM68V1000C, KM68U1000C Family CMOS SRAM
Revision 2.0
November 1997
1
Document Title
128K x8 bit Low Power and Low Voltage CMOS Static RAM
Revision History
Remark
Preliminary
Final
Final
History
Initial draft
Finalize
- Increased ISB, IDR
Commercial part = 10mA
Industrial part = 20mA
Revise
- Change speed bin
KM68V1000C Family: 70/85ns ® 70/100ns
KM68U1000C Family: 70/100ns ® 85/100ns
- Improved operating current: 40mA ® 35mA
- Improved power dissipation
PD: 0.7W ® 1.0W
- Improved standby current
Extended/Industrial: 20 ® 10mA
- VIL: 0.4V ® 0.6V

I might be wrong but, since the sheet said VIL 4V to 6V that was doing with the voltage it runs at

there's no 4V or 6V on that quote. The samsung and the mitsubishi chips ARE 3.3V

I see VIL ( Input low voltage) 0.4 to 0.6v, looks like you missed one decimal :p

Anyway, I interrupt this program to inform you that I just made great progress in eliminating the S-video Jailbars on the genesis side of that thing. I studied and probed the circuit board some more and realized why I failed to control the jailbars earlier.

Composite is actually mixed entirely from Chroma and luma out of discrete parts right on the board. It is not output by the ASIC. The asic only outputs Y and C.
So I removed one resistor to prevent chroma from being sent to the Composite mixing circuit.
BAM! 80% s-video Jailbar reduction. Of course your composite is now Black and white but your S-video is much improved.

To get this result you need to remove R7. ( Edit: Btw, this is a 1k resistor, for the records. )
http://i.imgur.com/SaDyIGZ.png

I feel dumb but, to my defense I am tired to day.
I don't know if this would work but maybe you could lift the Voltage input legs and add a 5v to 3.3v step down converter like this http://www.ebay.com/itm/DC-5V-to-3-3...item417060fd4b

No. The system wont run properly at 3.3V. And the rams can't be put on 3.3 while the rest is kept at 5. I said this earlier: definite solution is to get 5V RAMs, alternate shitty solution is to stepdown voltage to 4.something. 3.3 is just too low

How, about replaceing the sony cx for a nintendo s-rgb the sony has ok composite video but, the s-rgb chip is way better.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sean

How, about replaceing the sony cx for a nintendo s-rgb the sony has ok composite video but, the s-rgb chip is way better.

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But the CX has nice S-Video so I don't really care.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sean

How, would I make the unit work with pal games ?

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That requires moving some solder around on some jumper points and in some cases, like with the NES board, a complete change of the master crystal.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sean

It's the year 2014 and they could have wired the region to the switch they have for the genesis region select.

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Umm... that 4-position switch on the front of the console actually IS for changing the region of the Genesis side of the Super Retro Trio. BUT, the Super Retro Trio has a fault that even the older RetroGen Adapter has: in any of the PAL settings, be it PE (PAL Europe) or PA (PAL Asia), the TCT-6801 still runs in NTSC! While this works fine with some PAL games, sometimes, you might end up with a disastrous mess like what I got on the RetroGen Adapter here with Sonic the Hedgehog running in PAL (and if you're wondering, yes, I was using an actual PAL Sonic the Hedgehog cartridge for this):



I can only imagine how messy PAL-optimized games will be on both the RetroGen Adapter and Super Retro Trio in the PAL settings.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sean

I was able to find a datasheet for the KM68U1000CLG-8L at http://www.digchip.com/datasheets/pa...1000CLG-8L.php
And it seems that they run at 4 to 6v just fine.

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NOWHERE in that datasheet do I see any mention of the RAM running at 6V. In fact, let me quote the recommended voltage ranges for the KM68U1000C and KM68V1000C in that datasheet:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KM68U1000 and KM68V1000 datasheet

Power Supply Voltage:
KM68V1000C family: 3.0~3.6V
KM68U1000C family: 2.7~3.3V

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The KM68U1000C is supposed to run between 2.7V and 3.3V, and the absolute maximum ratings are here:

Attachment 9120

The chip should never be run over 4.6V, and even then, Samsung notes running the chips at that voltage could affect their reliability.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MaxWar

Composite is actually mixed entirely from Chroma and luma out of discrete parts right on the board. It is not output by the ASIC. The asic only outputs Y and C.
So I removed one resistor to prevent chroma from being sent to the Composite mixing circuit.
BAM! 80% s-video Jailbar reduction. Of course your composite is now Black and white but your S-video is much improved.

To get this result you need to remove R7. ( Edit: Btw, this is a 1k resistor, for the records. )
http://i.imgur.com/SaDyIGZ.png

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Well this is new. I always though the TCT-6801 output both Composite and S-Video from the GOAC.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jorge Nuno

No. The system wont run properly at 3.3V. And the rams can't be put on 3.3 while the rest is kept at 5. I said this earlier: definite solution is to get 5V RAMs, alternate shitty solution is to stepdown voltage to 4.something. 3.3 is just too low

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Not necessarily....we won't know for sure if we don't try. LV memory can work in a 5V system, some Snes repros are built with LV Flash and a LM7833 and work just fine.

Another reason I think these Rams have a good shot of working on 3V is that there are two unused IC spots by each pair of rams . If we look at U10 it seems like these boards where made to accept a SOT-23 3V regulator to power the rams. Someone with a unit can probably figure out what resistors/caps need to be moved to get the rams running on 3V with the added regulator. I can't see U9 well, but my guess is the unused output pad goes to Vcc and CS2 on the other two rams.

This looks like typical shitty Chinese quality control, they let the fabricators use LV rams and could of cared less to have the boards properly reworked :(

I wonder if they actually shipped any boards with the proper LV ram power circuits?


http://i.imgur.com/wqhG0JP.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bustedstr8

Not necessarily....we won't know for sure if we don't try. LV memory can work in a 5V system, some Snes repros are built with LV Flash and a LM7833 and work just fine.....

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Yes LV memories CAN work. BUT, those chips will burn from IO overdriving, unless they are specifically "5V tolerant", or otherwise protected from that with buffers or series resistors + clamping diodes.