Micro-64: Virtual Boy

The worst thing about the Virtual Boy is that Zero Racers STILL hasn't leaked. I'm sure someone has it, but those VB people are so frustratingly insular with their protos, they don't want to share anything! They hated the leaks of Bound High and particularly the four previously undumped Japanese games, and there's been nothing since. I just hope it happens sometime, because I must play that game eventually.

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Originally Posted by Guntz

I will take your notes on graphics into consideration.

As for the whole color thing, I take it you didn't quite understand what I meant by it. Maybe it's a bit hard to tell, but I mean the red scale is quite decent, nowhere near as bad as everyone says. Perhaps I will reword what I said prior so I'm better understood.

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I agree with this, it just doesn't entirely get through in the article. And the VB's sprite manipulation powers are nice; no handheld from the '90s has as good sprite scaling, rotation, or parallax powers. The WonderSwan is closest, but it can't match the VB... and the VB is closer to being like a handheld than it is a console in design, really. Before the GBA only the Lynx has such abilities, and it can only do sprite scaling, not rotation, in hardware (so rotation has to use software and is slow).

Of course the TV consoles of '94-'96 all have full sprite scaling, rotation, etc. abilities, and most can also do a lot more polygons than the VB, but the VB isn't really in that category... for what it is, it's impressive. And as I said, the GBC doesn't have any of its abilities there, sadly. Just color. And it released years later!

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I much appreciate any criticism, it means the Virtual Boy gets more attention.

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It certainly could use it. It's really frustrating that Nintendo has so far failed to do VB Virtual Console on the 3DS! Come on already, people who don't have a VB would surely be interested in the games.

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Also, I stay away from horror games, so I wouldn't personally know if Insmouse is any good or not. I don't hear too many opinions on it either, probably because it's an import only title.

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Ah. It's basically a maze-exploration first-person target shooter -- you move with one d-pad, and aim with the other one. It's not a full FPS, though, because it has tile-based movement, not free movement. Good concept, but reviews are mixed on how good the execution is. Still, it IS the only first-person shooter of sorts on the system, so for that it deserves mention.

On that note, you say that few games use both d-pads, but is that really true? Innsmouth no Yakata (move and aim), Vertical Force (move and store options), 3D Tetris (needed for full brick manipulation), Teleroboxer (one fist per dpad), and Red Alarm (move and aim in 3d) all make use of both d-pads, for sure. Probably more as well.

I saw the thread title from the forum homepage and thought it was going to be "Micro-64: Virtual Boy vs Saturn"

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

It certainly could use it. It's really frustrating that Nintendo has so far failed to do VB Virtual Console on the 3DS! Come on already, people who don't have a VB would surely be interested in the games.

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My guess? Probably because few people want to stare at red and black graphics. They didn't make for pretty websites back in the day (not to mention, after a while, it screwed with your vision when you looked away), so they don't exactly have the same appeal as something similar like black and white graphics. Plus, if the emulators for the Virtual Boy are correctly showing the graphics, didn't those games have the 3D blue/red thing going on to simulate the 3D depth? Undoing that's probably more trouble than it's worth, and reprogramming the games from scratch isn't likely an appealing idea either. Factor in the possibility that the original code could be long gone (like what happened with the long-promised GBA Mega Man collection), and the Virtual Boy's games are likely to remain left behind for a long time to come.

Could someone really push for it at Nintendo? Sure. But to be bluntly honest, that would be like someone at SEGA pushing for 32X games to be put on Steam.

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Originally Posted by The Coop

My guess? Probably because few people want to stare at red and black graphics.

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Huh? They have original B&W Game Boy games on VC. VB games are just like that, except with colors that are better-suited for looking at through 3d glasses.

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They didn't make for pretty websites back in the day

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They look just fine. Look at the pictures in the article, VBWL looks great!

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(not to mention, after a while, it screwed with your vision when you looked away)

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That's mostly because it's a 3d headset, not just because of the colors, really, I'm pretty sure...

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Plus, if the emulators for the Virtual Boy are correctly showing the graphics, didn't those games have the 3D blue/red thing going on to simulate the 3D depth? Undoing that's probably more trouble than it's worth, and reprogramming the games from scratch isn't likely an appealing idea either.

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Uh, try actually reading the article in the OP! It'll explain how the VB works. Two pictures, one for each eye. Two images. This creates 3d, because that's how eyes work. Emulators emulate this various ways, but on the 3DS it'd be simple enough -- put one of VB screen onto each of the two overlapping screens in the 3DS's 3d screen! VB 3d is probably better, because having a full eye for each image is going to be more convincing than the 3DS's two overlapping images with their tight viewing angles for the 3d to work, but the 3DS can do it no problem, of course.

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Factor in the possibility that the original code could be long gone (like what happened with the long-promised GBA Mega Man collection), and the Virtual Boy's games are likely to remain left behind for a long time to come.

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You don't need the original code to write an emulator, and VB emulation has been done on the PC.

Also, it's a decade late, but we've FINALLY kind of got that GBA Mega Man collection, albeit on 3DS Virtual Console instead. All five GB Mega Man games are there now! Pretty awesome.

Nintendo probably sees the VB as an embarassment due to its quick cancellation and the Yokoi thing. That doesn't help with getting its games re-released.

I miss my VB,let a friend borrow it, never got it back.

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

Huh? They have original B&W Game Boy games on VC. VB games are just like that, except with colors that are better-suited for looking at through 3d glasses.

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Red and black, is not black and white. A big screen full of red isn't pleasant for everyone to look at. Here's why...

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

They look just fine. Look at the pictures in the article, VBWL looks great!

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That's mostly because it's a 3d headset, not just because of the colors, really, I'm pretty sure...

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You're confusing the 3D effect with what highly saturated colors do to the eyes (which is what I was referring to). Red is an intense color, unless it's dulled or muted with another color to tone down its intensity. When you use pure red hues, it bombards the eyes to the point that when you look away after a while, everything looks off color-wise until your eyes readjust from the oversaturation they'd been subjected to. This kind of color bombardment can also cause headaches and eye strain for some. The 3D effect can cause those things as well. And when you combine 3D with an intense color as the only color seen, the eye strain/headache factor is amplified. The same thing can happen when you have any similarly strong hue making up quite a bit of the screen; cyan, magenta, pure yellow, neon colors... these affect your eyes in the same way after a while when they're all you're looking at.

That's part of why web designers who know what they're doing, don't use red text on a black background. Sure, it looks cool and edgy, but it's not a pleasant thing for your eyes to be exposed to for any great length of time. Unfortunately, Nintendo didn't learn that lesson in time, and we got our Nintendo UPC Scanner 3000.

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

Uh, try actually reading the article in the OP! It'll explain how the VB works. Two pictures, one for each eye. Two images. This creates 3d, because that's how eyes work.

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I read the article. That's why I said "if the emulators for the Virtual Boy are correctly showing the graphics," because when one of them overlaps the left and right images, it looked like the red/blue effect from older 3D comics/movies/games. It made me wonder if the VB lenses did something to or with that kind of signal. Yeah, the article didn't mention anything about that, but that doesn't always mean the article's right (no offense, Guntz). So, I covered my ass based on what I'd seen with VB emus.

See, my understanding has always been that the Virtual Boy uses a similar effect to what the Master System used with its 3D games; objects on-screen are offset by a varying amounts as the game rapidly flickers back and forth between the two versions (left offset and right offset) on the TV screen, creating the 3D effect as the left and right lenses of what you're watching through run in sync with the game image being displayed on the TV. The more an object is offset between the left and right versions, the farther back the object looks in the game. The less it's offset, the closer the object appears. Obviously, the VB is using a better version of the technique at a faster rate, but at heart, it's the same concept. This seems to be backed up by what you see in an emu like VBjin, when you switch from left only, to right only, with the display. You can see it on the title screen for Vertical Force, that background moves more than the game logo, and the logo moves more than the copyright credits. Maybe it's just the way that emu displays the game, but it fits with my understanding of the VB's 3D technique.

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

You don't need the original code to write an emulator, and VB emulation has been done on the PC.

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Of course not. You need a ROM to write one. But wouldn't the original code be better to work with? Seems to me it would give you more options in terms of making the emulation more accurate on a different system's architecture. And I doubt Nintendo would want to half ass it.

The VB is creating two simultaneous images, like the 3DS, and is not flipping back and forth like shutter glasses, no. It is the two screen images themselves that are offset (by the developer). You make each screen display the image offset so that when the two are combined it creates the 3d effect because of how eyes work. Of course, each "screen" is actually a single line that looks like a screen because of that 50hz oscillating mirror, but making a screen made up of single lines has been done before -- that's how Atari 2600 graphics sort of are drawn.

Shutter-glasses quickly flip between two images, yes? With this wouldn't you not have the VB/3DS problem of having to render at twice the resolution that you're displaying? But it's not going to look quite as nice, of course, which is why the VB's design is better. Emulators have to do things differently because PCs don't have 3d displays like the Virtual Boy.


As for red, Nintendo chose it because it is a much better choice than brighter colors like white -- that'd be horrible! Blue and green LEDs weren't as good yet, also, thanks to LED development status, but red was supposed to be more bearable to look at than the alternative, and it surely is.

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Originally Posted by The Coop

You're confusing the 3D effect with what highly saturated colors do to the eyes (which is what I was referring to). Red is an intense color, unless it's dulled or muted with another color to tone down its intensity. When you use pure red hues, it bombards the eyes to the point that when you look away after a while, everything looks off color-wise until your eyes readjust from the oversaturation they'd been subjected to. This kind of color bombardment can also cause headaches and eye strain for some. The 3D effect can cause those things as well. And when you combine 3D with an intense color as the only color seen, the eye strain/headache factor is amplified. The same thing can happen when you have any similarly strong hue making up quite a bit of the screen; cyan, magenta, pure yellow, neon colors... these affect your eyes in the same way after a while when they're all you're looking at.

That's part of why web designers who know what they're doing, don't use red text on a black background. Sure, it looks cool and edgy, but it's not a pleasant thing for your eyes to be exposed to for any great length of time. Unfortunately, Nintendo didn't learn that lesson in time, and we got our Nintendo UPC Scanner 3000.

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I must be in the minority, I can play Virtual Boy for hours and never get a headache, eye strain or even over-compensated color perception. I can look away from the Virtual Boy and everything is the right color.

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I read the article. That's why I said "if the emulators for the Virtual Boy are correctly showing the graphics," because when one of them overlaps the left and right images, it looked like the red/blue effect from older 3D comics/movies/games. It made me wonder if the VB lenses did something to or with that kind of signal. Yeah, the article didn't mention anything about that, but that doesn't always mean the article's right (no offense, Guntz). So, I covered my ass based on what I'd seen with VB emus.

See, my understanding has always been that the Virtual Boy uses a similar effect to what the Master System used with its 3D games; objects on-screen are offset by a varying amounts as the game rapidly flickers back and forth between the two versions (left offset and right offset) on the TV screen, creating the 3D effect as the left and right lenses of what you're watching through run in sync with the game image being displayed on the TV. The more an object is offset between the left and right versions, the farther back the object looks in the game. The less it's offset, the closer the object appears. Obviously, the VB is using a better version of the technique at a faster rate, but at heart, it's the same concept. This seems to be backed up by what you see in an emu like VBjin, when you switch from left only, to right only, with the display. You can see it on the title screen for Vertical Force, that background moves more than the game logo, and the logo moves more than the copyright credits. Maybe it's just the way that emu displays the game, but it fits with my understanding of the VB's 3D technique.

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Emulators and real hardware are not alike, in any way. Don't judge the Virtual Boy by an emulator, that is horrible. The real VB has two completely separate and dedicated displays. It's like having two Game Boys sitting side by side. They are not shuttered or or layered. There's plenty of VB repair guides online that prove this. When you actually look at a real Virtual Boy, the 3D effect is 100% seamless, even with the oscillating mirrors. There are some people who cannot naturally focus on an artificial 3D image, but the average person has no difficulty.

The closest comparison with emulation would be to disable either the left or right display, keeping the color red. Red and cyan glasses don't work at all. I have tried them and no matter what, the 3D never worked. Nothing right now (except maybe a VB emulator on Occulus rift or 3DS) can compare to the original hardware.

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

The VB is creating two simultaneous images, like the 3DS, and is not flipping back and forth like shutter glasses, no. It is the two screen images themselves that are offset (by the developer). You make each screen display the image offset so that when the two are combined it creates the 3d effect because of how eyes work. Of course, each "screen" is actually a single line that looks like a screen because of that 50hz oscillating mirror, but making a screen made up of single lines has been done before -- that's how Atari 2600 graphics sort of are drawn.

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Yes, much of that is correct. It was up to the developer to make the 3D or not, it was definitely not an automatic feature.

The "single line" thing isn't quite that simple. The entire 2D picture is drawn from that line, it is quickly scanned onto the mirror, which is synced with the LED display to create the full image.

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As for red, Nintendo chose it because it is a much better choice than brighter colors like white -- that'd be horrible! Blue and green LEDs weren't as good yet, also, thanks to LED development status, but red was supposed to be more bearable to look at than the alternative, and it surely is.

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Yes, the red color was the best choice. Green and/or blue would have not been feasible, financially or functionally. LCD was still way too blurry to be of any use, the 3D would not have worked.

Glad you are defending the VB, A Black Falcon. I am a big fan of it too. Truly at the top of my list of failed systems that i wish had gotten more support. Can you imagine playing some multiplayer Mario Kart, F Zero, Doom, Punch Out, Star Fox, etc, on it!. It would have been awesome!

And yeah, i think i have read from Black Tiger, that it uses the same sounchip as the PCE. But since it uses bigger carts and probably has more sound RAM, it should have a little advantage. Gotta love the PCE soundchip!. Also, same CPU as the NEC PCFX, right?, i wonder why so many similarities with NEC consoles.

Not to sound snarky, but "duh, by the developer" :lol: I know the VB can't do it on its own. Like the games on the SMS, the programmers have to create the offsetting effect in the game by basically drawing two versions of it, like this...

http://thecoop2.webng.com/Vertical_Force_3D.gif

http://thecoop2.webng.com/Vertical_Force_3D.gif

On the SMS, the glasses used a shutter technique so that as the game flickered back and forth rapidly on the TV screen, each eye only saw the "half" it was supposed to see from the screen. Each half was then combined in the player's brain to create the 3D effect. The VB does the same basic thing... only each screen is drawn at the exact same time, sending the left image only to the left eye's view hole, and the right image only to the right eye's view hole, yes?

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Originally Posted by The Coop

The VB does the same basic thing... only each screen is drawn at the exact same time, sending the left image only to the left eye's view hole, and the right image only to the right eye's view hole, yes?

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Yes, you got it. It's nothing like shutter 3D and it is completely seamless. You really should play a Virtual Boy console, emulators don't compare at all. If you must use an emulator, disable one screen and keep the other red, not blue.

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Originally Posted by The Coop

The Virtual Boy... a system that even the 32X can point and laugh at.

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the 32X can also point and laugh at the jaguar cd and the game.com

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Originally Posted by Guntz

Yes, you got it. It's nothing like shutter 3D and it is completely seamless.

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Well... that's what I was talking about. Granted, I was wrong about the shutter technique being used (since the VB does the two versions simultaneously), but the way I was being argued against made it sound as if the VB and SMS had nothing in common in terms of the 3D effect being used :lol:

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Originally Posted by The Coop

Well... that's what I was talking about. Granted, I was wrong about the shutter technique being used (since the VB does the two versions simultaneously), but the way I was being argued against made it sound as if the VB and SMS had nothing in common in terms of the 3D effect being used :lol:

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Those really are two very different things, though. The SMS rapidly switches between drawing two different images, while the Virtual Boy, like the 3DS, draws two images simultaneously. This naturally requires more system resources than switching between two pictures -- you essentially cut system resources in half, while with the SMS I'm sure more would be available. They are NOT the same. I have the SMS 3d glasses, and think that they actually do work pretty well at creating a 3d picture, but the VB is better.

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Originally Posted by saturndual32

Glad you are defending the VB, A Black Falcon. I am a big fan of it too. Truly at the top of my list of failed systems that i wish had gotten more support. Can you imagine playing some multiplayer Mario Kart, F Zero, Doom, Punch Out, Star Fox, etc, on it!. It would have been awesome!

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I really like the VB, and it's unfortunate both that it failed, and that Nintendo gave up on it. I mean, it's a failure for sure, but it didn't sell THAT badly! I have no idea what its real sales numbers are -- the only number I see is 770,000 but the only source for that is that usually-wrong Gamepro article -- but it didn't completely bomb like the Jaguar, or something, but Nintendo gave up on it anyway. I mean, I was quite interested in the VB, but held off because of cost and because it was failing. If Nintendo had kept it alive and kept releasing games for it, maybe I could have been convinced to buy one eventually, and that'd have been great. I'm sure there were plenty more people like me out there. Nintendo did consider trying a "relaunch" in later '96, with Bound High, Dragon Hopper, and Zero Racers (all completed games that were not released), but they canned the system instead. I think I could make a real case for that being a mistake. Sure, it was never going to be the hit they hoped for at launch, but abandoning it so early sealed its fate, I think... maybe a later '96 second try would have failed too, but they should have tried. Giving up after only 6-8 months is too soon, even if the initial reaction was poor!

Another thing they needed was the link cable, preferably from day one. Mario's Tennis should never have been released without link cable support! It's a pretty good game with nice scaling and 3d effects, but it's sadly single player only. One big problem with the system was that other people couldn't watch you play, but link support could have helped with that a bit. Also I'd have much rather seen it launch with the AC adapter in the box instead of the battery box, but that'd have cost a little more so I can see why they cut it, even though the things' battery life is awful and no one who wants to play much VB should be without an AC adapter.

[quiote]And yeah, i think i have read from Black Tiger, that it uses the same sounchip as the PCE. But since it uses bigger carts and probably has more sound RAM, it should have a little advantage. Gotta love the PCE soundchip!. Also, same CPU as the NEC PCFX, right?, i wonder why so many similarities with NEC consoles.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I thought so. Nintendo used an NEC CPU in the N64 too, so they worked with them for a while in the mid '90s... just liked their chips or something, I guess.

And yeah, that VB audio chip is pretty great for a "handheld" system. Really good sound quality and music.

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Originally Posted by Guntz

I must be in the minority, I can play Virtual Boy for hours and never get a headache, eye strain or even over-compensated color perception. I can look away from the Virtual Boy and everything is the right color.

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I don't get headaches, but after playing for an hour or more when I look away it does take a moment for my eyes to adjust. It's nothing bad, though, just weird for a little bit.

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Emulators and real hardware are not alike, in any way. Don't judge the Virtual Boy by an emulator, that is horrible. The real VB has two completely separate and dedicated displays. It's like having two Game Boys sitting side by side. They are not shuttered or or layered. There's plenty of VB repair guides online that prove this. When you actually look at a real Virtual Boy, the 3D effect is 100% seamless, even with the oscillating mirrors. There are some people who cannot naturally focus on an artificial 3D image, but the average person has no difficulty.

The closest comparison with emulation would be to disable either the left or right display, keeping the color red. Red and cyan glasses don't work at all. I have tried them and no matter what, the 3D never worked. Nothing right now (except maybe a VB emulator on Occulus rift or 3DS) can compare to the original hardware.

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Yeah, with the VB emulation's nothing like the real thing. It's not the same experience at all.

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Yes, much of that is correct. It was up to the developer to make the 3D or not, it was definitely not an automatic feature.

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Right. It's only 3d if the developers program in the differing viewpoints to the image, to make images appear with depth. Close one eye while playing VB and you can see this -- suddenly all of the depth disappears!

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The "single line" thing isn't quite that simple. The entire 2D picture is drawn from that line, it is quickly scanned onto the mirror, which is synced with the LED display to create the full image.

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There's only one line of LEDs though, so it has to draw it a line at a time, and that's turned into a picture by that oscillating mirror... very cool tech. Of course, CRTs draw the screen with an electron gun, so the idea of "shooting" the picture at the screen did exist already, but Nintendo came up with a pretty unique way to do it.

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Yes, the red color was the best choice. Green and/or blue would have not been feasible, financially or functionally. LCD was still way too blurry to be of any use, the 3D would not have worked.

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The only other color they could have chosen was white, I believe... and they've said that white was not an option, it'd be completely blinding.