Micro-64: Virtual Boy

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

Those really are two very different things, though. The SMS rapidly switches between drawing two different images, while the Virtual Boy, like the 3DS, draws two images simultaneously. This naturally requires more system resources than switching between two pictures -- you essentially cut system resources in half, while with the SMS I'm sure more would be available. They are NOT the same. I have the SMS 3d glasses, and think that they actually do work pretty well at creating a 3d picture, but the VB is better.

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I know the way players get to see the effect is different. I also know that the SMS flickers and the VB stays constant with their two images. Those things were clearly stated a few posts ago when the confusion of whether the VB flickered or not was gotten rid of. But the effect itself is created the same way in the games of the SMS and the VB...

http://thecoop2.webng.com/Vertical_Force_3D.gif http://thecoop2.webng.com/Zaxxon_3-D_3D.gif


http://thecoop2.webng.com/Vertical_Force_3D.gif
http://thecoop2.webng.com/Zaxxon_3-D_3D.gif

Both games are drawing two different screens, with foreground and background objects offset to simulate the shifted perspectives of each human eye. These images are then merged in the brain of the players, through viewers, to create the simulation of 3D. The difference between the SMS and VB, is the way the players gets to see these two different images (shutter glasses in sync with the screen's left/right flickering vs constant images into the specific left/right side of the VB goggles). Beyond that, the games are creating 3D via the same trick of perspective shifting. That's what I've been talking about when I've mentioned the 3D effect.

It's ridiculous that Nintendo pretends that VB never existed and does nothing put its games on the VC, especially now with the 3DS.
The same with Sega and 32X/Sega CD (excluding Sonic CD). Even in Sonic Gems Collection they refused to put Chaotix.

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

The worst thing about the Virtual Boy is that Zero Racers STILl hasn't leaked. I'm sure someone has it, but those VB people are so frustratingly insular with their protos, they don't want to share anything! They hated the leaks of Bound High and particularly the four previously undumped Japanese games, and there's been nothing since. I just hope it happens sometime, because I must play that game eventually.

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That seems a bit harsh. Especially considering one guy sold his entire Virtual Boy collection to fund the purchase of Faceball, just so that he could make repros and release it to the community. I'm pretty sure any protos that are still out there are probably held because of liability reasons.

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Originally Posted by The Coop

I know the way players get to see the effect is different. I also know that the SMS flickers and the VB stays constant with their two images. Those things were clearly stated a few posts ago when the confusion of whether the VB flickered or not was gotten rid of. But the effect itself is created the same way in the games of the SMS and the VB...

http://thecoop2.webng.com/Vertical_Force_3D.gif[/IMG] http://thecoop2.webng.com/Zaxxon_3-D_3D.gif[/IMG]


http://thecoop2.webng.com/Vertical_Force_3D.gif
http://thecoop2.webng.com/Zaxxon_3-D_3D.gif

Both games are drawing two different screens, with foreground and background objects offset to simulate the shifted perspectives of each human eye. These images are then merged in the brain of the players, through viewers, to create the simulation of 3D. The difference between the SMS and VB, is the way the players gets to see these two different images (shutter glasses in sync with the screen's left/right flickering vs constant images into the specific left/right side of the VB goggles). Beyond that, the games are creating 3D via the same trick of perspective shifting. That's what I've been talking about when I've mentioned the 3D effect.

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It looks similar when you make sprites likie those, but once again, is the SMS hardware actually rendering both of those screens all the time? Or is the hardware rapidly switching between rendering one screen, then the other, then back to the first? This is the key question -- does SMS 3d cut system power in half, because it's rendering two screens simultaneously, or is it a trick of sorts where it rapidly switches between two images? I kind of think that it could be the latter. Looking at SMS Outrun 3D or Space Harrier 3D the graphics might be a slight downgrade from the non-3d SMS Outrun and Space Harrier titles, but it's not nearly a 'cut in half' difference I think...

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Originally Posted by maxi

It's ridiculous that Nintendo pretends that VB never existed and does nothing put its games on the VC, especially now with the 3DS.
The same with Sega and 32X/Sega CD (excluding Sonic CD). Even in Sonic Gems Collection they refused to put Chaotix.

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Yeah, it's quite disappointing that Sega has so far refused to release any Sega CD Virtual Console games. Why not, Sega? They redid Sonic CD, as you say, but everything else from the system remains ignored, and the same goes for the 32X. Sega had some bad excuses back when the Sonic Gems Collection for why Chaotix wasn't there, but if they'd really cared they'd have gotten a 32X emulator working and put it in... and we haven't seen it since either, of course. No 32X VC. Argh.

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Originally Posted by xelement5x

That seems a bit harsh. Especially considering one guy sold his entire Virtual Boy collection to fund the purchase of Faceball, just so that he could make repros and release it to the community. I'm pretty sure any protos that are still out there are probably held because of liability reasons.

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You must not remember the harsh reaction many people had to the release of those last four released but previously not publicly dumped Japanese VB games... the roms existed, but were only being traded among the handful of people who had it and they didn't want the rest of the internet to be able to play those games. Well, someone leaked them, and then there were comments that this would make those people much more careful next time and leaks of unreleased games would be much less likely... or something like that. Has the VB community attitude changed since then? I admit, I don't regularly read VB forums, just once in a while.

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Originally Posted by maxi

It's ridiculous that Nintendo pretends that VB never existed and does nothing put its games on the VC, especially now with the 3DS.
The same with Sega and 32X/Sega CD (excluding Sonic CD). Even in Sonic Gems Collection they refused to put Chaotix.

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Wasn't that excluded from "Gems" because of SEGA not being able to make a good enough emulator? I could have sworn I read something about that back when that compilation was released. It was likely just an excuse by SEGA, but...

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

It looks similar when you make sprites likie those, but once again, is the SMS hardware actually rendering both of those screens all the time? Or is the hardware rapidly switching between rendering one screen, then the other, then back to the first? This is the key question -- does SMS 3d cut system power in half, because it's rendering two screens simultaneously, or is it a trick of sorts where it rapidly switches between two images? I kind of think that it could be the latter. Looking at SMS Outrun 3D or Space Harrier 3D the graphics might be a slight downgrade from the non-3d SMS Outrun and Space Harrier titles, but it's not nearly a 'cut in half' difference I think...

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You're arguing for the sake of arguing, and either completely ignoring, or not understanding, what I've said. I'm not repeating myself.

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Originally Posted by The Coop

You're arguing for the sake of arguing, and either completely ignoring, or not understanding, what I've said. I'm not repeating myself.

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You've hit the 3D equivalent of "you can only call it scaling & rotation if it's a SNES game" with Black Falcon.

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Originally Posted by The Coop

Wasn't that excluded from "Gems" because of SEGA not being able to make a good enough emulator? I could have sworn I read something about that back when that compilation was released. It was likely just an excuse by SEGA, but...

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PC emulators could run th game just fine by that point though, so that was a very bad excuse. The real reason is probably that two of the three main games in that collection were PC ports (yes, it's the PC versions of Sonic CD and Sonic R that they use), easier stuff to do, and they didn't want to go through the hassle of making a 32X emulator just for one game... they did an arcade emulator for Sonic the Fighters, though, so that's not entirely the reason. But PC emulators could play Chaotix just fine, so while they did use that excuse, it's not particularly credible.

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You're arguing for the sake of arguing, and either completely ignoring, or not understanding, what I've said. I'm not repeating myself.

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No, you're ignoring the fact that there is a key difference there between the two designs.

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

No, you're ignoring the fact that there is a key difference there between the two designs.

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http://avidinvestorgroup.com/wp-cont...e-Go-Again.jpg

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Originally Posted by Black_Tiger

You've hit the 3D equivalent of "you can only call it scaling & rotation if it's a SNES game" with Black Falcon.

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To the user the two may be similar (or they may not be, depending on who you ask), but to the system and the programmer, if I'm right they are totally different!

Once again, the "problem" with dual-screen 3d is that you have to split your system resources, so you can only use about half the power you'd expect to since you've got twice the resolution to output. This is an issue on the VB, the 3DS, the Oculus Rift, etc. But shutter-glasses style 3d? That doesn't use two cameras. It uses one camera, rapidly switching between displaying two different images. It's probably not cutting system resources in half, which is why Famicom 3D System and SMS 3D games look pretty much the same as any other NES or SMS games. But the cost is that the effect isn't quite as good because it's not actually making two images at the same time.

And of course, and this is a key difference, with shutter-glasses 3d, you cut the framerate in half -- remember, half of the frames go to one eye, and half to the other. This means what, 25-30fps for FC/SMS 3d shutter-glasses games? In comparison, the VB and other dual-camera 3d systems run at full speed, 50hz for the VB, probably more for something like the 3DS. This IS a real, relevant difference between the two styles. I don't know of any shutter-glasses for 120hz screens, after all...

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

PC emulators could run th game just fine by that point though, so that was a very bad excuse. The real reason is probably that two of the three main games in that collection were PC ports (yes, it's the PC versions of Sonic CD and Sonic R that they use), easier stuff to do, and they didn't want to go through the hassle of making a 32X emulator just for one game... they did an arcade emulator for Sonic the Fighters, though, so that's not entirely the reason. But PC emulators could play Chaotix just fine, so while they did use that excuse, it's not particularly credible.

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Sure, fan-made PC emulators could, but unless SEGA bought one of them (or hired the author of one, like they did with Shinya "MegaDeath" Miyamoto), there's no guarantee that SEGA themselves was able to make one that worked in 2005. God knows it's easy enough to believe that the SEGA of that time couldn't get past such a hurdle :lol:

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

No, you're ignoring the fact that there is a key difference there between the two designs.

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

To the user the two may be similar (or they may not be, depending on who you ask), but to the system and the programmer, if I'm right they are totally different!

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And now I know you haven't been actually reading/understanding my more recent posts. You're arguing with no one about a completely different subject.

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Originally Posted by The Coop

And now I know you haven't been actually reading/understanding my more recent posts. You're arguing with no one about a completely different subject.

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Your sig is not real animation because it is not a reel of film of hand-painted images being projecting onto a screen.

You can't ignore the fact that there is a key difference there between the two designs. To the user the two may be similar (or they may not be, depending on who you ask), but to the animator and the projectionist, if I'm right they are totally different! :bull:




Unless Nintendo does it. :fail:

Every ABF argument: the way Nintendo/N64 does anything is the only true way

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Originally Posted by zetastrike

Every ABF argument: the way Nintendo/N64 does anything is the only true way

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Nope, that it's Nintendo has absolutely nothing to do with it. The Nintendo Famicom 3D glasses work exactly the same way as the Sega Master System 3D glasses, the Vectrex 3D Imager, and all other active-shutter glasses systems, such as most 3D TVs and some movie theater 3d systems: they rapidly alternate between displaying two different images. The system is only ever producing ONE image at any one time, meaning most system resources can be focused on the current image, then swapped to the other one one frame later, and back and forth. This is good, because it means that you can get closer to the full power of the system for each frame. However, this also means that the maximum framerate any game can run at is only ONE-HALF that of the screen's refresh rate, usually 50 or 60 hz, for a maximum framerate of 25 or 30 fps. This isn't good. You can fix this problem with a 120hz TV, thus allowing for two 60hz images; some 3d TVs are indeed 120hz, and allow for 60fps 3d. Still though, having to wear the glasses is annoying, and shutter systems require glasses of course because that's where the shutters are.

The Virtual Boy, 3DS, and headsets like the Jaguar VR, Oculus Rift, and such systems do things completely differently: they are creating two SIMULTANEOUS images, each to a separate screen for each eye in a headset, or in two overlapping images which appear 3d at the right distance for the 3DS. This means the system must be dividing its power, with only half of system resources available at any one time since the other half is devoted to the other screen; this isn't good. However, this does mean that you can run at full framerate, up to the maximum the screen can display -- 50hz in the VB's case (based on that oscillating mirror), 60hz for things such as the 3DS; the Oculus and Sony's headset are probably similar.

Nintendo first tried the shutter-glasses method, with the Famicom 3D system in the mid '80s, but then moved on to the dual-camera system in the mid '90s as 3d technology advanced, because it is the best way to do 3d in a headset, and the only way to do glasses-free 3d as the 3DS does. All 3d headsets (Oculus and Sony's headset being the two major upcoming ones today) use the dual-screen method for the same reason.

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Originally Posted by The Coop

Sure, fan-made PC emulators could, but unless SEGA bought one of them (or hired the author of one, like they did with Shinya "MegaDeath" Miyamoto), there's no guarantee that SEGA themselves was able to make one that worked in 2005. God knows it's easy enough to believe that the SEGA of that time couldn't get past such a hurdle :lol:

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Oh, I'm sure Sega probably outsourced that collection, classic collections were/are usually outsourced... and I'm sure that didn't help. Regardless, it's ridiculous that Chaotix wasn't on that disc, and it should have been. SegaSonic the arcade game (the trackball one) should have been there as well!

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And now I know you haven't been actually reading/understanding my more recent posts. You're arguing with no one about a completely different subject.

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No, I'm trying to explain why the difference between the two systems is important. You don't seem to be listening.

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Originally Posted by Black_Tiger

Your sig is not real animation because it is not a reel of film of hand-painted images being projecting onto a screen.

You can't ignore the fact that there is a key difference there between the two designs. To the user the two may be similar (or they may not be, depending on who you ask), but to the animator and the projectionist, if I'm right they are totally different! :bull:

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To the user, for '80s shutter-glasses systems like the Vectrex, Famicom, or SMS 3d glasses, anyone who can tell the difference between a 25-30hz picture and a 50-60hz picture -- and that's most people, to at least some extent -- can tell the difference between those systems and dual-camera systems like the VB, 3DS, or Oculus. Of course, once you add in modern 120hz TVs with shutter glasses things get closer; there the difference is more about the user experience, how a headset is more immersive than a screen with glasses for instance. This is one reason I like teh VB's 3d better than the 3DS, 3d movies, or SMS 3D system -- the 3DS and shutter-glasses, since you're looking at a screen in a room, simply are not as immersive as a headset is. But technologically, for the user, sure, 120hz shutter glasses and a 60hz headset would be similar in terms of framerate, if you ignore the different screens you're looking at... unless someone made a 120hz headset, of course, in which case dual-camera systems take the lead again.

And of course, it's Facebook's Oculus and Sony who currently are working on VR headsets, not Nintendo. Nintendo only has the 3DS, which is nice, and better than having to use shutter glasses for sure since wearing those glasses is annoying, but it's nowhere near headset levels of immersiveness.

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

Oh, I'm sure Sega probably outsourced that collection, classic collections were/are usually outsourced... and I'm sure that didn't help. Regardless, it's ridiculous that Chaotix wasn't on that disc, and it should have been. SegaSonic the arcade game (the trackball one) should have been there as well!

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That would have been cool, but the main challenge there is to either release a trackball controller (not likely), or to alter the game to work with analog controllers. And if SEGA couldn't be bothered to write/pay for an emu for a decade old game that ran on their own systems, figuring out trackball --> analog control for one of their even older arcade games wasn't going to be conquered effectively. Even they seemed to know it :lol:

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

No, I'm trying to explain why the difference between the two systems is important. You don't seem to be listening.

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Explain to who? Who's arguing otherwise with you? From what I've been seeing, all you're doing is trying to change the subject entirely from what I've talked about. You're going on about technical traits (shutter glasses vs steady-stream eye pieces, flickering alternating images vs steady twin-images, etc.), while I'm talking about the 3D effect itself that the games are using; a trick meant to mimic the stereopsis trait of the human eyes (stereoscopic 3D). Whether you realize it or not, you seem to be trying to prove what I've said on my topic is wrong, by going on a diatribe about your own different topic.

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Originally Posted by The Coop

That would have been cool, but the main challenge there is to either release a trackball controller (not likely), or to alter the game to work with analog controllers. And if SEGA couldn't be bothered to write/pay for an emu for a decade old game that ran on their own systems, figuring out trackball --> analog control for one of their even older arcade games wasn't going to be conquered effectively. Even they seemed to know it :lol:

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Well, it wouldn't be as good, but you could just map it to an analog stick, you know. Plenty of classic collections have done such things, such as the Atari collections on PS1/N64/Saturn/PS2/etc/etc that have trackball games (Centipede, Missile Command, and such) to racing games like Super Off-Road in Midway Arcade Treasures 3, with its free-spinning wheel remapped to an analog stick... it's not hard, it just doesn't work as well as the real arcade controller does. But there's nothing that can be done about that on a console where most people will play it with a pad. That's better than not having the game there at all!

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Explain to who? Who's arguing otherwise with you? From what I've been seeing, all you're doing is trying to change the subject entirely from what I've talked about. You're going on about technical traits (shutter glasses vs steady-stream eye pieces, flickering alternating images vs steady twin-images, etc.), while I'm talking about the 3D effect itself that the games are using; a trick meant to mimic the stereopsis trait of the human eyes (stereoscopic 3D). Whether you realize it or not, you seem to be trying to prove what I've said on my topic is wrong, by going on a diatribe about your own different topic.

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After being wrong at first about how the VB works, it looked like you basically said 'well they're still the same thing anyway', and I explained why no, the two are different.