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This is what I meant when I said the NES had better sound hardware than the Master System. People brought up the FM Synth for the Master System, but that was not available in the US, or anywhere else outside of Japan as far as I know. The stock SMS sound chip just wasn't as good as the stock NES sound chip.Quote:
Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118
I don't think the common use of the numbered video game generations is very useful, particularly when they include successor systems within the same "generation."
Your generation analogy is faulty; by your logic, if NES and SG-1000 are Saturn and PS1, the SMS would be Dreamcast (the successor to SG-1000/Saturn).
Atari and Sega both released two or three consoles between 1982 and 1986. For Atari, they either released two 2nd-gen consoles, two 3rd-gen consoles, or we need to add a generation. Remember that with conventional wisdom as it is now, the Atari 5200 is put in the same generation as the 2600! This makes far less sense than putting the 5200 and 7800 (and Atari XE), or SG-1000 and Sega Master System, in the same generations together; the 2600 to 5200 is a larger power jump than 5200 to 7800, or SG-1000 to SMS.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gentlegamer
Really, the only way to put those systems in different generations is either to stick with the flawed "the systems of 1982 are in the same generation as systems from five years prior" logic that as I've said I don't think is right, or to add a generation. I don't think the gap between Colecovision and NES is enough to be a generational gap; it's like the Jaguar to the N64, at best, not NES to Turbografx or something.
And also, the SG-1000 is nearly the same hardware as the Colecovision, but released the same week as the NES. Do we do as sites used to and call it "2nd-gen" because of its hardware, even though release date matters as much as hardware when considering hardware generations (the Wii is 7th-gen, not 6th!)? No, that's not right. There was a two and a half year gap between the Intellivision and Colecovision. That's a generational gap. The eleven months between the Colecovision and NES isn't. And there's no way that two systems that release the same week should be put in different generations.
So, as a result of this, yes, Atari and Sega both released multiple 3rd-gen consoles.
What? The NES and SG-1000 are like the Saturn and PS1 because they released a year after the consoles that started the generation as I see it, the 5200 and Colecovision (etc). Then the SMS released a year and a half after that, similar to the gap between the Saturn/PS1 and N64 in Japan.Quote:
Your generation analogy is faulty; by your logic, if NES and SG-1000 are Saturn and PS1, the SMS would be Dreamcast (the successor to SG-1000/Saturn).
The Dreamcast released four years after the Saturn. Compare this to the 1 1/2 year gap between SG-1000 and SMS -- they are not the same, the Saturn to DC was a (shorter than the average five year) generational gap, while SG-1000 to SMS wasn't.
The Dreamcast is in the same category as the other early consoles like the 5200/Colecovision, TG16, and 3DO/Jaguar -- systems which released well before the more popular, later systems of their generation and lag behind in hardware power in some ways, but clearly are significantly more powerful than systems of previous generations so there should be no question that they are, in fact, next generation machines.
I just recently got into this series, and you can also now label me to in the "people who are nuts for them" category. But I started with the remakes of the first two for PSP that were translated & brought over to us by XSEED. Which also turned me into an XSEED fan too. But short story; I still think the first two are the best. Also found that many Ys fans think this as well. But, I also suggest to play the first two via the PSP remakes first. If you still not a fan after beating these two games, then I'd be totally fine with you saying it's not for you. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Obviously
The first time I beat Phantasy Star I was maxed out at level 30 with all the best gear because it took me forever to find Dark Force! I spent a lot of time wandering around. There was no Internet back then to look it up.
So for me Lassic was the tougher fight in PS1. But Lassic in PS4 was crazy hard when I first got to him.
You've stirred up some good memories :) I might have to start one of them up again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bottino
I agree the master system versus nintendo e.s. should stand but falcon how would you list the consoles per generation as you said now its flawed and some here agree http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthr...parison/page14
Console generations are annoying, personally I judge the generations by the games that appeared on the systems.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennab
I put the 5200, SG-1000 and the Colecovision on the 2nd generation because the games released for them were 2nd generation style games. The hardware though fits better as the start of the 3rd generation (judging by the games on the Atari 8bit computers and the MSX, which share the same hardware).
Eh, I'm not sure about that. When I think of Atari 2600 games, even in a positive way, it's games like Yars' Revenge or Kaboom -- very repetitive, fun in short bursts only, though they may have high replayability. The Atari 2600's attempts at more complex/substantive types of games are usually noble failures at best. Even Solaris, which some consider the most "advanced" game of all for the 2600, is certainly impressive for the hardware, but to me it's worth playing only as a curiosity. Try to sit down and really give it a good, serious play and it kinda falls apart.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamahl
The Colecovision and 5200, due to the time period, do have a lot of those games, especially early 80s arcade ports, and there were quite a few 2600 ports from the likes of Activision. But the Commodore 64 and NES/Famicom have plenty of those games too, especially earlier on, and you do see a bit of the more advanced stuff on Colecovision and 5200, with stuff like WarGames, Rock n' Bolt, and Rescue on Fractulus.
I'm kind of rambling but I guess what I'm saying is I don't put Colecovision/5200 games in the same category as Atari 2600 games, apart from the admittedly sizable amount of overlap.
Yep, and in particular the Atari XEGS is extremely similar to the 5200, but with more RAM. Same CPU at the same speed, and same graphics and sound chips.Quote:
The hardware though fits better as the start of the 3rd generation (judging by the games on the Atari 8bit computers and the MSX, which share the same hardware).
The Intellivision hardware can do this:Quote:
Originally Posted by j_factor
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSdj3_t9Xfg
Or maybe a demo port of a 4th gen game?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKOurrFwyNY
Of course, that's a homebrew, but the gameplay is pretty damn 3rd gen no? Of course nobody thinks of the Intellivision as 3rd gen, or as the start of the 3rd gen, because the games released for it are pretty much 2nd gen games.
The NES and C64 are 3rd gen systems because they existed during that time period, when games started having a proper beginning, middle, and end.
It can, but it didn't, at least not in terms of actual released games. The games I mentioned are games that were actually published, packaged and sold by a real company (and were just a few examples from a larger set).Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamahl
I don't think that's the reason. The reason is that Intellivision was positioned as a competitor to the Atari 2600, rather than a replacement. The majority of Jaguar games are pretty much 4th gen games but it's generally agreed to be a 5th gen console.Quote:
Of course, that's a homebrew, but the gameplay is pretty damn 3rd gen no? Of course nobody thinks of the Intellivision as 3rd gen, or as the start of the 3rd gen, because the games released for it are pretty much 2nd gen games.
Not every game for those systems is Final Fantasy or Maniac Mansion. You seriously underestimate the number of NES and C64 games that do not have a proper beginning, middle, and end.Quote:
The NES and C64 are 3rd gen systems because they existed during that time period, when games started having a proper beginning, middle, and end.
I'm not sure what your point is; are you saying that you don't like the concept of console generations in general? I think that the idea does make sense. This is an industry where people have thought of new systems as being a 'generation' above the previous one. I agree with most of the standard definitions of which consoles go in which generation (as seen on Wikipedia for instance), except for the systems of 1982, which they get entirely wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennab
I should also say, for handhelds the generations don't always hold up. They do for the GBA and beyond, but the handhelds of 1997-2001 particularly make things difficult, generation-wise. The problem is, on TV consoles there are usually time and power gaps between generations. But on handhelds, because of the limitations of portable technology and the differences of the market, those things don't always happen. So, the generation labels for the handhelds of '98 to '00 particularly always will be somewhat arbitrary. It almost might be better to abandon generation labels for that era of handhelds, I'm not sure... But anyway, there are no such issues for TV systems.
This is the primary excuse I've seen for people who want to keep those systems in the second generation; some people on Atari-Age say this for example. I think it's flawed logic, though. I mean, I really do think that the main reason why those systems were put in the "second gen" to begin with is more because of the crash than the games... and as I've said before, I don't think the crash is a valid breaking point between generations because it doesn't hold up when you consider the world market and not only the US, if you look at release dates worldwide, or if you look at hardware power.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamahl
As for game types though, the 4th gen has a lot of NES-style games, the new current (8th) gen so far is mostly 7th-gen style games, etc. The Xbox One and PS4 aren't 7th gen consoles just because they do nothing so far but play last gen style games with better graphics! Most Colecovision and 5200 games are exactly the same in that respect, graphically enhanced versions of last-gen games. I think there's a double-standard here for 2nd-gen games, and don't think it makes sense. And anyway, games like Ghostblaster show that those systems can do more than the 2600 and co. ever could. Or look at the 2600 version of Buck Rogers: Planet of Zoom and then the Colecovision version! If that's not a generational leap nothing is.
And also, this argument ignores that most early NES games are "2nd-gen-style" games too. It's only a couple of years into the NES's life, with mappers and such, that it clearly differentiates itself. The Colecovision and 5200 didn't last long enough to get to that point, but that's not their faults, we shouldn't retroactively take away their proper generation just because of that. And the games they do have are more than enough to clearly be a generation above the 2600, O2, and such, anyway.
Yeah, this is true, but it's also important to mention that release dates also clearly make those systems next-gen.Quote:
The hardware though fits better as the start of the 3rd generation (judging by the games on the Atari 8bit computers and the MSX, which share the same hardware).
The PC-Engine is full of NES level games, nobody considers it 3rd gen either. You can't just look at it like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by j_factor
California Games (BEST VERSION OF THIS GAME)
Castle of Illusion
Land of Illusion
Legend of Illusion
KENSEIDEN
STAR WARS
Dynamite Headdy
Captain Silver
The Lucky Dime Caper - Starring Donald Duck
Deep Duck Trouble - Starring Donald Duck
Dynamite Dux
Bram Stoker's Dracula
Asterix
Moonwalker
Shinobi
Alex Kidd in Miracle World
Alex Kidd in Shinobi World
Ah yes. that creepy bastard. Am I mistaken or it's actually possible to defeat him ? I think that I did it once on an Emulator.Quote:
Originally Posted by tryphon
Yeah, it's not unusual to get lost in Phantasy Star when you don't have a guide ( Dezolis is an Ice Hell both in PS1 and 2 ). But the final part where you need to meet the 'Governor' and think that the game is over, only to be surprised with a new dungeon and a final battle with Dark Force, who had possessed him, is just great.Quote:
Originally Posted by thesegadude
Gotta love Phantasy Star.
That's the problem, the dichotomy of video game generations is itself a "retroactive" label and an act of historical interpretation, hence the "problem" of where certain systems lie on the "generational" chart.Quote:
Originally Posted by A Black Falcon
Edit: this side discussion should probably be moved to Insert Coin