only one choice and could have added more colors or scaling?
only one choice and could have added more colors or scaling?
Colors, because scaling effects, or the missing Mode 7, could have been game specific and added through the Virtua Racer cartridge with a lock-on system similar to Sonic & Knuckles. Colors have more of a general purpose.
Color. Pretty much all of the criticism the MD gets today and it got bitd are due to the color. It's why people make fun of the Sega CD, it's why the 32X exists, it gives the SNES a clear advantage that every idiot can see. No one notices resolution, scrolling layers, animation, sprites on screen, speed/smoothness like they do color.
Would be better for the Super Nintendo to not have a crippled CPU ? To rely on carts with add-on chips?
"Hey look, a new game is coming out for the Genesis! It better have Mode-7 effects and a bunch of superfluous effects just to show Snes fanboys that the Genesis is just as good as their all mighty Snes !"
"Hey look, a new hack for a Genesis game! Make it look like a Snes game ! "
Enough with the fucking underdog complex, goddammit.
I would go for sprite scaling if it could have meant better versions of monaco gp / outrun / outrunners, used the sega cd for extra color
I know this is a sega forum but anyone old enough to remember the first time they played pilot wings, will remember how cool it was, yes now it looks low res and blocky, but loved to have seen sega do a hang on using a mode 7 track for corners
i think the genisis should of had mcuh more colors 'n' mode 7 and still cost as much, coz i know nuthin bout produce costs and ickonomy hahahahahaha !!!!1111
Colors. The MD can already do scaling through software. The Sega CD's scaling chip makes SNES Mode-7 pound sand.
I typically defend the usage of add-on chips, but the way you framed this really made me lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bottino
Nice to see more people are realizing this. Yes, the Genesis should have had more color. The lack of it is why the Sega CD failed, why the SVP failed, why the 32X was created and why (ultimately) Sega ended up making so many dumb decisions.
The problem with mode-7 is that only the background layer can be scaled/rotated. Also, the max possible resolution of the image is still lower than the foreground graphics of pretty much every game that ever used it. That's why it bugs you so much. As it is, the typical foreground resolution on SNES games is already lower than Genesis by default. In order for SNES games to in run the lofty max resolution mode that Snerds love to throw around, they have to use highly reduced color pallets.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaniyth
I like some of the mode-7 usage, but it's not like it totally trumps everything else.
To be honest, even when I was a Nintendo fanboy back in my childhood/pre-teen days I didn't like Mode 7 all that much. It always bugged me just how extremely pixelated it would get at even the slightest of distance. "Mode 7" effects on the Genesis [via software coding tricks] actually usually look better, but thats just my opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Modelboard4
As for the topic of this post, yeah more colors on screen and transparency [via hardware] would have been nice, however i'm ok with dithering to achieve more colors and psuedo-transparencies, since I use a CRT TV and Composite cables on my Genesis I don't notice the dithering and transparency tricks. That is also why I will never modify my Genesis for S-Video.
As much as I love the Genesis, I respectfully disagree. SNES color, and transparency abilities make the Genesis, and TG16, for that matter, look dated in comparison.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaniyth
The Genesis colour capabilities were embarrassing, even in 1988. The weakest spot of the console.
Should have been 128/4096 colours.
more colors absolutley
even 128 colors ons creen woudl have made a world of difference
I think that you just haven't played enough Genesis and TG-16/PCE games and don't appreciate actual artwork in games.Quote:
Originally Posted by retro nick
The Genesis can do shadow/transparency effects and the TG-16 is so strong in color that it can do full color transparency effects. Aside from the fact that SNES games tend to be more diluted, with either poor variety of artwork or poorly optimized tiles, transparency and Mode 7 effects are used as filler most of the time. There's a reason that arcade and 2D computer games from that time weren't pixelated messes with inappropriate transparency use and that Mode 7 gameplay, the only worthwhile use of the effect, died with the SNES.
Why didn't slowdown-plagued and sprite-challenged games always running at a lower resolution with <NES quality HUDs not seem dated to you?
Some color palettes instantly scream, "Genesis game" to me and it gives the console its own character. I like my nostalgia the way it is.
It only ever became an issue because of games being sloppily ported from the SNES. Lots of games made specifically for the console look superb.
The Genesis / Mega Drive was just fine the way it was.Quote:
Originally Posted by Modelboard4
http://www.quickmeme.com/img/03/039d...32309e6e9c.jpg
neither, resolution is what it needed.
If it had more colors and scaling the SNES fanboys would tear apart something else about the Genesis.
In my opinion just be glad for the way things turned out. It set the stage for what gaming is today. The Genesis could of been more consistent with motherboard revisions in terms of audio and composite video quality output (both can be fixed with ease nowadays). I don't worry about how things might of been. Just worry about how I complete a said task involving it.
Two very different machines that set the stage for one of the greatest console wars of it's time, launched a blue hedgehog as a mascot and forever changed the gaming landscape for better or worse.
Wtf? Most of the Genesis library took full advantage of it's 320x224 resolution and many it's 320x448 highest resolution. So yeah, the Genesis definately was "High Definition Graphics".Quote:
Originally Posted by ThugsRook
The SNES couldn't handle it's 512 horizonal pixles resolutions for any game play so it was used for still images or in-game menus only because Mode 5 (the mode that supports the 512 pixel resolutions) supports 2 graphics layers; one 16-color and one 4-color. Infact, most SNES games had to be ran at only its 256x224 and/or 256x448 horizontal pixles resolutions [lowest resolution modes] to keep the framerate high.
I think you misinterpreted my point. I was merely comparing the technical color, and transparency capabilities of the 3 systems in that post, and nothing more. Just specs. In that point alone, the SNES wins hands down, its not even a contest. Did you not see my prior post, where I was busting the SNES's balls for failing at pretty much everything else visual related? I even downplay mode-7 as not being that big of deal compared to the Genesis with software tricks, and not even coming close to Sega CD (A platform which I will defend to no end).Quote:
Originally Posted by Black_Tiger
As far as art appreciation, I pretty much can't shut up on this forum about how beautiful Flink is. Also, Snatcher looks awesome, Ranger X made my jaw drop the first time I played it, Monster World VI seems to break the color barrier of the system (and has great visuals to boot), and I've always been wowed by how cool the Sonic games look.
As far as PCE, Gate/Lords Of Thunder, and Rondo Of Blood look far more compelling than most pixel art based games that I've played, and the bonk games look like an animated cartoon to me.
I could go on all day about the amazing artistic triumph that is Conquest Of The Longbow for MS-DOS, but it will fall on deaf ears in this forum. No one cares.
I even hold Kirby's Adventure in especially high regard, because it seems to smash the NES's limits to bits. It looks like an early 16-bit game to me.
At the end of the day, my point is this: I was just comparing tech specs of color and transparency. Nothing more.
Many? No. A ~very~ small number (single handful) of games used the XXXby448 resolution. Unless you're running RGB out or an S-video modded Genesis/MD, the 320x224 has not visible advantage over 256 res. The Genesis/MD have horrible composite output (no alternating color burst phase) that negates the added resolution. SNES' 256x224 looked sharper than Genesis' 320x224 back in the day (and to this day on stock systems). The Genesis gets a boost to the sprite scanline bandwidth in 320 res, which is why developers used it over the 256 res. 256 res was used to same on cart and vram space.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaniyth
It's not 16 color for the whole BG plane. It's 4bit color tiles with 8 subpalettes (121 colors). Same with the second layer; 2bit tiles at 8 subpalettes (24 colors). Resolution doesn't cause a game to slowdown or frame rate issues. These consoles aren't blitting pixels with the CPU. The issue is with vram; high resolution output requires high resolution images to compliment it - these system only have 64k of vram.Quote:
The SNES couldn't handle it's 512 horizonal pixles resolutions for any game play so it was used for still images or in-game menus only because Mode 5 (the mode that supports the 512 pixel resolutions) supports 2 graphics layers; one 16-color and one 4-color. Infact, most SNES games had to be ran at only its 256x224 and/or 256x448 horizontal pixles resolutions [lowest resolution modes] to keep the framerate high.
You might want to lay off quoting specs, or advantages of them, if you don't really understand them. :)
As to the original poster; Color over mode7 any day. Either 128 colors (8 subpalettes) or 4096 color master palette. Either would do the trick. Although both together would be an incredible step up. Mode 7 has its uses, but it's limited. Most games don't benefit from it. If Sega really wanted mode 7 style FX in games, they would have made a cheap mode 7 chip (not the expensive SVP chip) for Genesis carts. Mode7 on the snes still has advantages over the scaling/rotation on the SegaCD; mode7 has a full 256 color tile support (no subpalettes needed) and it's up to 60fps full screen. SegaCD has more capabilities for scaling/rotation, but it's a lower frame rate and very limited color restriction (16 colors).
People don't tend to realize that the 512 colors of the Genesis isn't too big a deal. It's more the 64 colors on screen that matters. With 512 colors, you still have your reds, your blues, your greens and so on, so it's still possible to make a game look good even if you don't have all those shades of each color like the SNES has, but it's mostly the 64 color limit that poses a problem. Still, more colors could only be a good thing.
Mode 7? I was never a fan of it. If you need to scale something, just do it in software.
On the other hand, if in an alternate reality the Genesis did have more colors, SNES fanboys would still nitpick and bash the Genesis simply for not being able to use mode 7, and still call the Genesis inferior.
These threads... :shame:
Definitely more colours, then Pyron wouldn't have to be fixing Castlevania Bloodlines :lol:
I've always known the palette was a non-issue. I mean realistically, if it only had 64 colors, there's every color that could be displayed anyway. Same with the SNES, 3k colors seems like a real pain in the ass to deal with more than anything else. It could have only had a 256 color palette to go along with what it could display on screen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raijin
Gee, if only the Genesis attracted more hardcore psycho-obsessive nerds, that would spend too much time on the internet, than "retro" Nintendo did. :roll:Quote:
On the other hand, if in an alternate reality the Genesis did have more colors, SNES fanboys would still nitpick and bash the Genesis simply for not being able to use mode 7, and still call the Genesis inferior.
I like my MD as it is, but I'd definitely have skipped 32X, integrate the SVP and a second VDP for 128 out of 512 colors and release it as Giga Drive or Mega Drive 32.
Better yet, go back to 1993 and skip the model 2, and just release above hardware as Mega Drive 2 / Genesis 2.
Then you'd have an Amiga1200/STe situation where this improved hardware would be out and devs won't take advantage of it because more people still own the original hardware than the enhanced version.Quote:
Originally Posted by Christuserloeser
Zetastrike is right, such minor hardware upgrades just end up ignored.
if your referring to the thread title its kind of lost in the haze of snes bashing, I simply wanted to put it out there what would people have preferred, as the sega cd did add more colors and scaling, but if the MD/GEN could have taken one feature from the mega cd/ sega cd what would it have been,Quote:
Originally Posted by Barone
a spokesmen for US Gold/LJN said "the fact sega (the megadrive or mastersystem) didn't have hardware scaling makes you wonder if sega really valued their games as much as they valued LJN and US Gold games. More kids were seen carrying an LJN/US GOLD game than a sega or Nintendo, the idea that they were taking them back for a refund was simply speculation"
Every where i've read, there's no mention of Mode 5 having subpalettes, it plain and simply supported 2 graphics layers; one 16-color and one 4-color and nothing more according to what i've researched over the years. Which is why I said what I said. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by tomaitheous
No, music. A lot of 3rd party developers just couldn't make good sound using the Yamaha chip. So much music came across as cheap and uninspired.
The 2612 definitely has to be kept. All the good music on the MD makes up for the US made crap we got. I think should've scrapped the PSG chip (as much as I love the FM/PSG combo) and included something like the Ricoh chip from the Sega CD, but that would've broken the SMS compatibility and would've been expensive probably.Quote:
Originally Posted by Miles Pergallon
That way the FM-literate Japanese devs would have their stuff and Western devs would have something they understood.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThugsRook
I need to take a break from the internet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Miles Pergallon
yeah a toilet break is always good if you pants are stretching, my bottom is ready to explode! too much sprouts last nightQuote:
Originally Posted by Bottino
skidmarks on the Amiga/megadrive is a really good game by the way
If Bloodlines' color issue was simply due to the Genesis' color ability, then Pyron wouldn't be able to do what he's doing. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamahl
When this occurred it was usually the fault of GEMS. Most Japanese third parties did fine with the music and so did some western ones like Zyrinx.Quote:
Originally Posted by Miles Pergallon
Exactly. And if some SNES games' slowdown was simply due to hardware weakness, a game like Rendering Ranger wouldn't have been possible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Black_Tiger
Pyron's work is amazing to me that even with Genny's relatively limited colors, there were outstandingly better color choices for the games he has enhanced. It shows how the level of effort and polish by the game programmer makes the biggest difference.
It's in most snes docs. You need to look at the tilemap format. Here: http://wiki.superfamicom.org/snes/show/Backgrounds . That doc makes it easier to understand (shows the tilemap format directly associated with the layer). That's the problem with docs, they aren't tutorials. They just list specs. You have to understand what you're reading.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaniyth
It's called 16 color because technically, the whole BG layer is one large 16 color image, broken down into smaller 16 color bitmaps (either 8x8 or 16x16 tiles). It's the subpalette association for the tile, that allows you to use a different set of 16 colors for that block. It's no different than the Genesis or PC-engine, etc. Every tilemap entry (excluding Direct color mode and the tilemap format for mode 7), has 8 entries for subpalettes. For the 4 color BG layers, the layer itself calculates into its offset into the palette ram. So mode 0 with four 4 color BG layers, has a total color output of 96+1 colors; num_color(3)*subpalettes(8)*layers(4)+BG_color_0. Sprites have their own set of colors. The SNES has more subpalettes *just* for BG layers (8 subpalettes), than the Genesis has for *both* sprites and bg layers together (4 subpalettes). The SNES has another 8 just for sprites.
.Quote:
Originally Posted by Modelboard4
The SegaCD did not add more colors to the system/setup. That would be the 32x.
So, what about that setup makes it impractical? There must be a reason the hi-res mode was never used much.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomaitheous
Pyron's work would be even more impressive if he was doing a full hack and not replacing palette entries. You have much more control over color when you have access to the tilemap, tiles, sprites, and sprite pal association tables.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gentlegamer