Toshinden is totally a household name.
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Toshinden is totally a household name.
Failed consoles lose money. The Saturn lost Sega a lot of money. Only Microsoft with its billions could redefine massive losses into "acceptable losses spent building our brand"; Sega wasn't like that, only a fraction that much losses drove them out of the industry. And yes, Japan didn't help there -- remember that despite the success for a couple of years, Sega's fading in '97 hurt them badly! The PS1 ended up lasting more than twice as long as the Saturn in Japan, and sold 3+ times better. The Dreamcast bombed hard at release in late '98, and never recovered. And isn't VF2 the ONLY million seller the Saturn ever had?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kogen
So yeah, the Saturn did okay in one region for a couple of years. It's great that it got that much at least, because it resulted in many great games. But unfortunately, it can't be called a "success", even just in Japan and ignoring the rest of the world. The short lifespan and failed (and far too early!) generation transition, and the financial losses, preclude that, I would say.
I agree entirely, of course. The only way to even begin to justify the 32X is to cancel the Saturn and release a more powerful and less expensive to build system in '96 instead, and even then, sticking with just the Genesis + Sega CD would probably have been the right choice. I love plenty of 32X games too, but it should never have happened, not if they were also releasing the Saturn at the same time.Quote:
Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118
Wasn't the Dreamcast launch one of the most successful of all time?Quote:
Originally Posted by A Black Falcon
Saturn killed SEGA even though it had a successful run and had a successor. N64 had a successor and a successful run too.
Yeah. DC only failed due to SEGA's president dying. There was nothing wrong with the hardware or software. They even had a large-storage, ethernet, DVD model in the works that would have whooped Sony's butt. SEGA of America took advantage of the situation to kill SEGA, then their president quit to join EA.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blades
The US launch (September to December 1999) was, yes; sales slipped starting in January '00 and didn't recover, but it did have a good first few months, yes, and okay but not great enough sales after that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blades
The Japanese launch in December 1998, however, was a disaster; sales were awful, there were no games (hope you like Virtua Fighter 3tb, because that's one of the only games that was available at launch!), supply was limited (they had far too few systems made; slow production was one reason the US launch wasn't until 9 months later) and the failure rate apparently was too high, and this all resulted in the system crashing hard out of the gate and never recovered. Sega proved that they had learned very little from the Saturn's launch failure in the West, and repeated some of the same mistakes with the DC -- a too-early launch with too few games that cut off a more successful platform while gamers would rather have still supported the last system for longer. In Japan, only the seriously hardcore owned Saturns. This is why all Dreamcast games released after its death in April 2002, save only four [KOF '00, KOF '01, KOF '02, and Puyo Puyo Fever], were shmups and visual novels (yes, ALL except for those four were in those two genres) -- two genres aimed right at that tiny super-hardcore fanbase that had actually bought Dreamcasts.
You know that fabled US DC launch with so many great games, etc? That only happened as a result of Sega waiting a quite long time after the Japanese launch before they actually released it here. We had 9 months of software all at once, with none of the software droughts, with more systems available to buy, with some new games from Western publishers like Midway, with fewer of the hardware problems, with a modem included with the system (yes, the Japanese launch systems didn't come with the modem), etc. Unfortunately, failing badly in Japan hurts, it's one of the largest markets... and the DC never got over like 2% marketshare there, sadly enough.
The difference between the N64 and the Saturn is that the N64 was a profitable console that Nintendo made money off of, while the Saturn was a financial failure that lost Sega probably hundreds of millions of dollars. Also the N64 sold more than triple the number of systems worldwide that the Saturn did thanks to its success in the US; that matters too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kogen
For Nintendo, their big failures so far are the Virtual Boy (in all regions); the N64 (in Japan only); the Gamecube (particularly in the US, where Nintendo lost half of the N64's audience to Microsoft, while failing to make any gains anywhere); and the Wii U (everywhere), unless things turn around for that last one.
:lol: Quite a fantasy here... but in reality, the Dreamcast crashed and burned from day one in Japan. The US is the only region that it did okay in, and even here it stalled as soon as PS2 hype got going just months after its release.Quote:
Yeah. DC only failed due to SEGA's president dying. There was nothing wrong with the hardware or software. They even had a large-storage, ethernet, DVD model in the works that would have whooped Sony's butt. SEGA of America took advantage of the situation to kill SEGA, then their president quit to join EA.
Sega left the hardware market because they were running out of money. Sega didn't release a DVD-based Dreamcast because they couldn't afford it. I absolutely think that they should have, yes -- if the DC had had a DVD drive from day one, with perhaps a 1999 release date everywhere instead of the foolhardy 1998 Japanese launch that went so terribly badly, I think it would have done MUCH better for Sega. It's too bad they couldn't afford to do that. Sega was going broke. They could have kept going, but they were clearly losing, and the DC wasn't selling up to expectations. Sega of America didn't kill Sega, Sega of Japan was in charge and had the primary responsibility. If Sega of America "killed the Dreamcast" in early 2001, it was only because the US was the only region where the DC had actually sold okay up to that point, so it was up to Sega of America to look at things again and decide if the situation was salvageable. But after looking at the PS2's launch and the upcoming Gamecube and Xbox, while Dreamcast sales lagged, they knew it wasn't. If Sega had had money, they wouldn't have had to do what they did (Microsoft probably lost more on the Xbox in one year than Sega lost on the Saturn and Dreamcast combined in their whole lives...), but Sega never had even Nintendo dollars, much less Sony or Microsoft. They were probably doomed as a first party anyway because of that, in the long run... being a hardware manufacturer costs more every generation!
Among those interested in video games at the time, it certainly was. You had all the magazines raving about it, and Sofia was deemed popular enough to be a Sony mascot for a while.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kogen
N64 shipped 33 million, Saturn sold 10. We can only assume 'shipped' is half sold, so 15 million. Yeah, N64 did better outside Japan while Saturn did better in Japan. It was a success in Japan.Quote:
Originally Posted by A Black Falcon
Nice block of rambling. DC had a great launch and was doing good until SEGA's owner died. Not his fault he had a random heart attack and idiots took over. Console gaming has been shit since then. Essentially the whole Japanese development scene died.Quote:
:lol: Quite a fantasy here... but in reality, the Dreamcast crashed and burned from day one in Japan. The US is the only region that it did okay in, and even here it stalled as soon as PS2 hype got going just months after its release.
Sega left the hardware market because they were running out of money. Sega didn't release a DVD-based Dreamcast because they couldn't afford it. I absolutely think that they should have, yes -- if the DC had had a DVD drive from day one, with perhaps a 1999 release date everywhere instead of the foolhardy 1998 Japanese launch that went so terribly badly, I think it would have done MUCH better for Sega. It's too bad they couldn't afford to do that. Sega was going broke. They could have kept going, but they were clearly losing, and the DC wasn't selling up to expectations. Sega of America didn't kill Sega, Sega of Japan was in charge and had the primary responsibility. If Sega of America "killed the Dreamcast" in early 2001, it was only because the US was the only region where the DC had actually sold okay up to that point, so it was up to Sega of America to look at things again and decide if the situation was salvageable. But after looking at the PS2's launch and the upcoming Gamecube and Xbox, while Dreamcast sales lagged, they knew it wasn't. If Sega had had money, they wouldn't have had to do what they did (Microsoft probably lost more on the Xbox in one year than Sega lost on the Saturn and Dreamcast combined in their whole lives...), but Sega never had even Nintendo dollars, much less Sony or Microsoft. They were probably doomed as a first party anyway because of that, in the long run... being a hardware manufacturer costs more every generation!
Video game magazines only sold to a minority of nerds to be blunt. I got a PS1 in 1998 because Spyro looked like Sonic and it was affordable. I doubt I could even pronounce Toshinden, nor would I care honestly, it looks stupid from what I have seen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Benjamin
I'm a massive Saturn fanboy and even I have to admit this is utter nonsense. The N64 did better worldwide than the Saturn, there's no doubt about that. Saturn probably beat it in Japan, but again PS1 was by far number 1. Saying only half of the N64's shipped numbers sold is complete nonsense. the N64 was everywhere in the US. Just about all my friends who had a PS1 also had an N64. On the other hand most of my friends had no clue what a Sega Saturn was.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kogen
As for the Dreamcast, it's no secret it fell flat on it's face in Japan. Throw in the fact Sega was selling it at a huge loss causing them to bleed money and you didn't have a good situation. If Sega had the money Nintendo, Sony, or Microsoft had they could have pushed through to make it a success. But they weren't in that financial position.
Toshinden was on the cover of Next Gen and all, but it wasn't really a breakout title in terms of sales. It sold about the same as various other "hits" in the Playstation's early days, such as WipEout, Warhawk, Destruction Derby, ESPN Extreme Games, Doom, etc. -- which is to say respectably, but not amazingly. The best selling games were Tekken, Ridge Racer, NFL Gameday, Twisted Metal, and Rayman. Though I guess these games had a longer shelf life, especially Rayman, so "at the time" sales may be a bit different.Quote:
Originally Posted by Benjamin
Logically I can only assume in a fair manner that half of what was shipped was sold. Get me a real number if you want, although I barely care. Assumptions are not non-sense, they are estimates.Quote:
Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118
SEGA could have made DC a success like it was at first if they did a second model. But like I said, they were sabotaged and taken advantage of by American businessmen. Sonic Adventure I recall sold over a million in Japan, making it the most successful Sonic game there. I recall Crazy Taxi being a huge hit outside of Japan as well.
Not sure why your friend is clueless. I know what a Saturn is and I own one. I do admit half of the good games are Japanese only.
:lol: Uhh... no, ther'es no console ever which only sold half of the systems that were shipped. That's insanely ludicrous. :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Kogen
Sure, actual N64 sales numbers were probably a few million under 33 million, but it was close to that number. Meanwhile, that Saturn number you mention? The actual supposed "sold" number is 9.5 million, and I question it. We know that the system sold about 1.5 to 2 million systems in the US, ~1 million in Europe in early '98, and was at about 5 million in Japan in early 1998. That's 7.5 to 8.2 million sold that we actually know of, plus an unknown number that sold in Japan from '98 on; the system was fading out, but surely still sold something.
And then we have a "9.5 million total" number from a very unreliable source article that's loaded with mistakes and doesn't cite where it got its numbers from. Are there actual sales numbers to back this up? Because from the numbers we actually know, getting to even 8 million total sold is not certain, never mind "9" or "10". Those US and European numbers are almost certainly just about the final sales numbers (Saturn sales in the US collapsed in spring 1997 after Bernie Stolar decided the system needed to die, the system sold very few systems after that point... and even fewer after 1997. We've seen the sales chart, it's posted elsewhere on the forum. And in Europe the situation wasn't too different.), and the "2 million" US number might be too high. That '5 million' Japan number isn't the final number, but did the Saturn sell two million more systems in Japan in 1998-2000 as it died out? That's the only way to get to that "9.5 million" number that article claimed. It's possible, but I'm skeptical; I'd guess 8-9 million worldwide, probably. Maybe it's 9.5, but it's extremely unlikely to be higher. Meanwhile, Nintendo sold at least triple that number worldwide that generation, and actually made a profit off of it too.
Once again, this is completely false. The system crashed hard in Japan and failed there from day one. Only in the US was it doing even okay, never mind "great", and the "great" period in the US ended in January 2000.Quote:
Nice block of rambling. DC had a great launch and was doing good until SEGA's owner died. Not his fault he had a random heart attack and idiots took over.
Also, Isao Okawa died in March 2001. The Dreamcast failed in Japan starting from the month of its release, December 1998, and failed in the US in 2000, as sales stagnated. As I've said plenty of times before, the Dreamcast finished behind both the PS1 and the N64 in hardware sales in every single month of 2000 in the US, January through December! Yeah, sales were okay, but Sega needed better than "okay" in order to survive as a hardware maker. Okawa was still alive in January 2001 when Sega decided that its holiday 2000 sales numbers in the US weren't good enough to justify staying in the hardware business; remember that Sega announced it was going third party in January 2001.
Uh, no, Japanese console development died with the 7th gen -- that is, the PS3/Wii/360 generation -- not with Sega leaving the industry. The PS2 had one of the best lineups of Japanese games of any console ever... but then the generation after that costs got too high, and Japanese developers retreated to handhelds. The problem is that Japanese developers always relied first on sales in their home market, but the Japanese market isn't large enough to support many current or last-gen AAA development team budgets. The only way to solve this would be to make more games that would sell internationally, but some didn't want to try and others did but it didn't work out, while handheld (and now cellphone) gaming in Japan boomed, and we got the game industry today.Quote:
Console gaming has been shit since then. Essentially the whole Japanese development scene died.
Well, the PS1 wasn't a big hit in the West until 1997 (FFVII!), but among gamers, Toshinden was one of the Playstation's biggest names in 1995. It was absolutely a big deal among gamers, and we all knew the name, whether or not we'd played it.Quote:
Video game magazines only sold to a minority of nerds to be blunt. I got a PS1 in 1998 because Spyro looked like Sonic and it was affordable. I doubt I could even pronounce Toshinden, nor would I care honestly, it looks stupid from what I have seen.
An absolutely insane "half of shipments don't sell" statement is in absolutely no way fair. That could never, ever happen to any system that sold to any significant degree, and surely never has. The only case I know of where that actually happened is the Jaguar, where Atari said that by early '96 they had produced 250,000 Jaguars, but had only sold half that many. They eventually sold a lot of the rest at fire-sale clearance prices after discontinuing it. But other than that, it's never happened. N64 sales numbers are admittedly not going to match production numbers, but they're going to be close.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kogen
Seriously, you need to listen sometimes! Once again, the Dreamcast sold TERRIBLY in Japan. It failed there badly. 2% market share max, poor sales from month one. This is an absolute fact. It was not "American businessmen" who doomed the Dreamcast in Japan. It was Sega of Japan's poor decisions that they'd made consistently for some years by that point.Quote:
SEGA could have made DC a success like it was at first if they did a second model. But like I said, they were sabotaged and taken advantage of by American businessmen. Sonic Adventure I recall sold over a million in Japan, making it the most successful Sonic game there. I recall Crazy Taxi being a huge hit outside of Japan as well.
And as for the US, the Dreamcast died here in 2000 thanks to the PS2 and PS2 hype. Not "American Businessmen".
And anyway, as I said, Sega was doomed as a hardware maker anyway, because they didn't have the cash reserves to be able to afford to stay in for much longer! 7th gen game development was quite expensive, I can't imagine Sega managing to afford that unless they struck Wii-like gold...
Uh, what? It's a lot like the Sega Master System, a failure of a console that sold only 1 or 2 million systems (in North America) and lots of gamers never even heard of. It's very, very easy to imagine gamers that gen who had never heard of the Saturn. I'm sure there were millions of them. And of course, also consider that the Saturn died halfway through the generation! 1997-1999 were the biggest sales years for the N64 and PS1, and 2000 was pretty good too. But the Saturn died in '97 thanks to its failure and Bernie Stolar, and after that it didn't exist. Lots of people hadn't even bought a next-gen console at that point.Quote:
Not sure why your friend is clueless. I know what a Saturn is and I own one. I do admit half of the good games are Japanese only.
Yet when we look at media create sales and NPD data we see that the sales are actually pretty close to Nintendo's shipment numbers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kogen
This graph should give you a good idea of how both the Saturn and the Dreamcast really sold:
http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/1682/urwf.jpg
Notice the Saturn flatlines in 1997 and that the Dreamcast never outsells the PS1 and struggles to outsell the N64.
Sega was already bleeding money and as you can see the Dreamcast couldn't even outsell old systems, let alone the PS2, GC, or Xbox. How was Sega supposed to turn it around with a new model when they already had warehouses overflowing with unsold systems? People seem to forget that a lot of Dreamcast Sales came after it was discontinued and was being sold in bargain bins.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kogen
Of course you know what a Saturn is, you're a Sega fan. But newsflash, most people outside of the Sega fanbase know little to nothing about their systems, let alone the obscure ones. A lot of non Sega people think the Saturn is the same thing as the Sega CD when you bring it up. I know growing up almost none of my friends knew what the hell a Saturn was, most likely because the System was dead by 1997 here and never made a big splash.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kogen
ITT: People seriously replying to Kogen
Not always trying to be that guy, but 'one of the best Sonic games in a while' isn't really much of a qualifier.Quote:
Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118
Sonic Colors... worked. I'll give it that.
Sonic Colors was Sonic Unleashed 2 with lots of 2D sections and boring puzzles. The DS version was Sonic Rush 3, so that sucked. I remember playing it and you just boosted and talked to Sonic's retarded friends.