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In one particular print ad, Square boasted that it would have been impossible for a single cartridge to contain the breadth of Final Fantasy Seven
http://hypeup.net/index.php?ACT=92&f...lfantasy7c.jpg
But was that just spiteful speculation or could the Nintendo 64 theoritically have actually been able to play the entire game?
There's really no reasonable way. FF7 already had fairly low-quality midi audio, so that's not a good place to make cuts. The FMVs aren't really that numerous, so I don't think you'd save all that much by eliminating them. It has no voice acting in it or anything else that's purely a product of CD media.
FF7 hardly does anything to really push the CD medium. The N64 would have easily been able to handle it. How much memory would be needed is a tricky question, but definitely a 256Mbit cartridge at minimum. That would have been expensive for 1997 though.
Final Fantasy VII is on 3 discs. Metal Gear Solid and Colony Wars used only 2 discs each. There's a lot going on in FF VII that takes up a lot of disc space.
That ad doesn't say it would be impossible. It says it would cost $1200.
Final Fantasy 7 could have been easily done on N64, it would have just looked differently.
1. Mega Man Legends is on N64
2. Resident Evil 2 is on N64
An N64 FF7 would have just had no voices, no movies, and smaller blurrier textures.
The game itself is no tech feat, and most likely changes would have been made regarding pre-rendered towns.
possibly even removing or simplifying locations, or just rendering them in 3D with again.. low quality textures.
Would have been possible, but it would have been a lesser experience for sure.
I've heard that the full game is on all the discs, but each disc has separate prerendered cut scenes.Quote:
Originally Posted by gamevet
So it's kind of like what Nintendo did with having 3.5gbs on the mini-dvds for the Gamecube but just loaded most of it up with garbage data for the sake of copy protection?Quote:
Originally Posted by old man
Not the full game. Most of the game's world is on all three discs, to eliminate disc swapping. They wanted to avoid the problem that a lot of old computer RPGs on floppy disks had, that required the player to constantly swap back and forth between disks depending on the location. But it's more than just the cutscenes that are unique to a particular disc. FF7 isn't loaded with FMVs like 8 is.Quote:
Originally Posted by old man
You're talking about completely changing not only the visuals but the type of engine that the game uses. But yes. If you were to render the game in full 3D with no bitmaps, and no FMVs, it could work. You would end up reusing a lot of the same low-quality textures, making the game's various locales far less distinct. It's not really recognizable as FF7 anymore at that point.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoVamp
I'm not surprised that something like Mega Man 64 was possible, shocked that RE2 fit (even tho stuff was changed/cut). But I really don't think it would have done FFVII justice (not that I like the game) but the sound was really nice in the game and would totally be meh on the N64.
In reality, FF7 only uses about a half of a CD for the game; the rest is just the marketing.
It could easily fit in a N64 cartridge.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPO7c_XmesU
Squaresoft had certainly planned a 3D installment of Final Fantasy for the upcoming gaming generation if not specifically for the Nintendo 64; This is some tech-demo of Final Fantasy VI illustrating this.
Unfortunately I can't find it but there was this awesome article explaining the entire console move in format to CD in '95 and Nintendo having an otherwise dismissive stance toward the medium, consequently threatening the creative parameters as well as profit margins of third-party developers by remaining with cartridges.
Could Final Fantasy VII been on Nintendo 64 hardware? Sure, technically I see no reason why not but perhaps the cost of production would have indeed been killer for retail. My question is why didn't another game company we all know at that time with its own CD-based console ever receive its own iteration of Final Fantasy VII? Hmmmm?
I'm pretty sure Sony bought them off, either by directly giving them money or by giving them some sort of sweetheart deal. Square didn't release anything for any of Sony's competitors. Obviously the Saturn could have handled FF7 (perhaps with the FMVs a bit grainier), and even if FF7 is out for the N64, plenty of their other games would have been no problem for that system. They didn't even release any GB/GBC games during that period. WonderSwan was ok because Bandai wasn't in competition against Sony. They didn't release their first GBA game until the WonderSwan was dead, after canceling several intended WS releases.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lync
I don't think it was anything different than how 3rd party exclusives have ever been secured: either Sony offered some lucrative deal to Square, or Square realized that its player base resided pretty much with the PS1. They had already decided the N64 was out of the question due to the cartridge medium. FF7 was released at the end of 1997, and the Saturn was discontinued in NA in 1998. Square didn't really have a choice.Quote:
Originally Posted by j_factor
By the way, this is relevant history of why Square chose Sony:
http://www.edge-online.com/features/...l-fantasy-vii/Quote:
As the software houses were jumping from the 16bit systems to 32bit hardware, Squaresoft made the headlines for choosing Sony over previous soulmate Nintendo. The story behind the split is yet to be explained, though the two companies have since kissed and made up (with the departure of warring Hirosohi Yamauchi from Nintendo and Hironobu Sakaguchi from Squaresoft) we’re unlikely to any time soon. Kitase is predictably diplomatic, “We had a big decision to make in terms of which hardware to use. Nintendo was not one step behind in terms of hardware. In fact, the N64 was quite attractive, actually. But as our goal was to develop the next-generation RPG we came to the conclusion that only a high capacity mass storage media would facilitate what we wanted to achieve. This meant CD was the only option and so from that perspective, PlayStation was the only choice.”
There was great pressure on the team to maximise the benefits of the new medium. “At that time Sakaguchi [Square’s founder] was the series’ producer. Right from the time the decision to go with CD was made he set down a ground rule for the team saying, ‘If the player becomes aware of the access times, we have failed.’ So we tried many tricks to circumvent the issue, such as offering animation while the game was loading data, and so on. The constant fear for us having worked with cartridges for so many years was that the player would feel bored while waiting for loads. However, only CD media was able to facilitate more than 40 minutes of FMV movies, so we virtually had the decision made for us.”
They had plenty of choice. Final Fantasy VII came out in the first quarter of 1997 in Japan; Saturn was still doing well there at that time. Tobal No. 1 came out in 1996. Plenty of their non-FF games didn't really need the CD medium and could have been on N64, such as Bushido Blade. And they also never released a game for Dreamcast at all. They didn't release anything for the Game Boy after they started making Playstation games. They could have ported some NES games to Game Boy Color, but chose WonderSwan instead. They also could have made more PC ports, beyond just FF7 and FF8.Quote:
Originally Posted by JumpingRyle
I'm not sure why they were married to Nintendo in the first place, or didn't switch sooner. Their later SNES/SFC games could have been on Playstation and/or Saturn, either in addition to or instead of the SNES version. If Ogre Battle can get a Playstation port, why not Bahamut Lagoon? Why didn't Square ever make a multiplatform game?
That just says why they needed to use CD-ROM media for Final Fantasy VII. It doesn't say why they were exclusive to the Playstation as a company.Quote:
By the way, this is relevant history of why Square chose Sony:
http://www.edge-online.com/features/...l-fantasy-vii/
Never seen that ad before,thats one hell of a swipe at nintendo from square.
As we both said, Sony probably offered them some good financial incentives. That's normal for 3rd party exclusives.Quote:
Originally Posted by j_factor
By 1997 the PS1 had twice the installed base of the Saturn, so I think the writing on the wall was clear.
Regardless, why would Square limit themselves to the PS1? Because they knew that their fanbase was strong enough that people would buy PS1s to play their games. It was in Square's interests for the PS1 alone to do well. It doesn't make much sense to divide your fanbase by having some games on one console, some on another, and some on both unless you have no choice. They had the pull to basically say "If you want to play our games, then buy a PS1", and people did. As a result, Square had a concentrated fanbase on the PS1. They didn't need to mess with the headaches of ports or multi-platform releases because everybody who was going to play their games had already bought a PS1.
It's often repeated that "Final Fantasy VII is the game that sold the Playstation." FF7 was a "killer app" and Sqaure knew it. Few other developers or games could ever pull that off.
Remember, Sony released Final Fantasy 7 on the PS in the US, not Square.Quote:
Originally Posted by Murphy245
Well that explains it i never knew that.Quote:
Originally Posted by JFLY
Square made a variety of different kinds of games. I don't think they had a monolithic fanbase. Most companies didn't agree with your "don't divide the fanbase" reasoning -- no other large game publisher kept themselves completely exclusive in that era. And I certainly haven't seen any evidence that such reasoning was present at Square. Though it's true that they didn't "need" to support other platforms, because of how the dominant the Playstation was, pretty much across all markets worldwide. But it still seems a bit odd that they didn't release one single game for Game Boy Color, to say nothing of Saturn, N64, and 3DO. Yet they supported the WonderSwan. That doesn't fit into their "concentrated PS1 fanbase". Neither does their very early PS2 releases. There was no particular reason Driving Emotion Type S needed to be a PS2 exclusive, unless you think Square's devoted fanbase rushed out to buy launch PS2s and really wanted a bland racing game with their name on it. That game could have just as easily been on N64 or Dreamcast, and probably would have sold better on either.Quote:
Originally Posted by JumpingRyle
I think Sony bought around 11% of Square a few years later as well, so they probably had "the EA/Sega during Genesis days thing" going on - a better license deal than other developers/publishers.
Actually, Square developed pretty much only RPGs for the PS1. I think Einhander might be one of the few exceptions. They published a few other games, like Bushido Blade, but didn't develop them. They only started developing for the WonderSwan after the PS2 was released, and they released some GBA games a few years after that. Their core set of games for the PS1, Final Fantasy, SaGa Frontier, Front Mission, Xenogears, Parasite Eve and so on appealed to the same type of gamer. They most certainly had a huge fanbase of RPG gamers that was willing to follow them to the ends of the earth.Quote:
Originally Posted by j_factor
As I said, the situation was kind of unique because there have been very few developers before and since that so completely dominated an entire genre of video games (yes, I know there were other RPGs out there, but it's obvious Square was king). From a AAA developer's viewpoint, the best thing is if there is only 1 console on the market, so they have access to all consumers with a single release. Then there is no need to worry about multi-platform releases. I can't think of any other 3rd party developers that have had so much power as to be able to dictate what console they will develop for and have all of the fans flock to them. But that's exactly what happened when Square chose the PS1. If you were into RPGs back then, you HAD to have a PS1. From Square's perspective, after they've attracted this huge RPG fanbase to the PS1, it would be completely illogical to develop an RPG for the N64 simply because those resources would be better spent on developing another PS1 game.
Again, I'm not arguing that this is the whole story. As I've said twice, and as you said, Sony most definitely offered them financial incentives as is common for establishing 3rd party exclusivity. And, as I said, the PS1 and not long after the PS2 so completely dominated the market in Japan that it would be a waste to develop for the Saturn or Dreamcast.
That was in 2001 or so after Square wasted all their money on the failed FF movie. They were desperate and Sony bought up almost 20%.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zebbe
When did this conversation become exclusively about games developed by Square, not published? Everything I said in my original post applies just as well to games published as games developed.Quote:
Originally Posted by JumpingRyle
Those games, sure. But stuff like Chocobo Racing, Tobal, Brave Fencer Musashi? I'm not so convinced. I certainly don't think they made a decision on the individual release level.Quote:
They only started developing for the WonderSwan after the PS2 was released, and they released some GBA games a few years after that. Their core set of games for the PS1, Final Fantasy, SaGa Frontier, Front Mission, Xenogears, Parasite Eve and so on appealed to the same type of gamer. They most certainly had a huge fanbase of RPG gamers that was willing to follow them to the ends of the earth.
How, then, is it logical to make Driving Emotion Type S a PS2 exclusive? The PS2 didn't have their RPG fanbase at launch, nor is their RPG fanbase necessarily attracted to a racing game. And The Bouncer?Quote:
From Square's perspective, after they've attracted this huge RPG fanbase to the PS1, it would be completely illogical to develop an RPG for the N64 simply because those resources would be better spent on developing another PS1 game.
They eventually released a Gamecube game. I'm pretty sure the Saturn did better in Japan than Gamecube. Also I can't help but bring up the Game Boy Color one more time.Quote:
And, as I said, the PS1 and not long after the PS2 so completely dominated the market in Japan that it would be a waste to develop for the Saturn or Dreamcast.
You can't reduce the complex factors that affected Square's decision to go with the PS1 down to a single thing. I'm not trying to do that. All 4 of the things we've identified (financial incentives from Sony, huge install base of PS1, CD medium, and Square's dedicated fanbase) together, and probably some other factors, explain why Square developed exclusively for the PS1.Quote:
Originally Posted by j_factor
You said earlier that Sony bought Square off so that Square would only publish on the PS1. I'm just trying to say that the story is much more complicated than that. Obviously Square wouldn't go with Sony, regardless of how much Sony offered, if the PS1 was doomed to failure. Square developed for the PS1 because it was in their best interests to have one console dominate the market.
RE2 was done on N64 and they said it couldn't be done... actually, just today I heard that the team behind the N64 RE2 game originally wanted to port FF7, but Square thought it really couldn't be done so why RE2 was done instead... and only difference between RE2 and FF7 is one disc... of which two disc share so much freaking data already, lol. So I think it could of been done, why not?
Course that add was done well ahead of the RE2 game and by that time game cart space got much bigger as well as devs getting better with compression, so at the time of that add was done I guess it was right to assume that.