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Originally Posted by
Barone
Lol.
Do you realize that the actual Mega Drive was very successful in many other countries without Kalinske and his Midas Touch?
In how many of those territories did they overtake Nintendo in market share? North America is the largest territory, and SEGA's greatest success was there.
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I didn't say western software was irrelevant or anything like that.
But, do you really believe that Kalinske would have been so successful during 92-94 without Sonic? Really?
Again, look at the other countries. Sonic was the turning point which made the Mega Drive marketable pretty much everywhere and was a huge boost to its success.
People cite Japan all the time but look at Europe and other countries too. And even in Japan Sonic brought a considerable boost to the MD sales.
Sonic was definitely the major franchise, but why is that? A lot of it had to do with the way the series was marketed. The first 3 games were great, sure, but how many great games sold poorly because of poor marketing? SOA threw everything it had behind Sonic, and the results were huge. Sonic's sales in Japan were good but nowhere like they were in the US, and that's marketing's fault.
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And you're telling it to a guy who actually enjoys FMV.
As a gamer, the whole FMV thing doesn't bother me. I was just pointing out that, despite his Genius status to some people here, Kalinske made a lot of mistakes during his work at SOA. He isn't just the guy who multiplied the profits, he is also the guy running SOA during its decline and smoking a lot of money all the time.
I don't deny that Kalinske made mistakes; of course he did. I don't subscribe to the theory that SEGA declined because he spent too much money. I've never heard or read any evidence at all to back that up. The reason SOA had so much money to spend was because of all the money it was making. Of course they were going to spend it! The Multimedia Studio is a great example of money poorly spent, but that's not representative of the overall picture. In Japan, SOJ was more conservative with its spending on marketing and many things (except for hardware. They loved their hardware!) and it never got out of third place.
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The FMV thing didn't fit well in the MD's palette limitations, to begin with. Can we agree about that?
Just an example:
In a retrospective interview with Edge, Ken Melville of Digital Pictures expressed his displeasure at the technical limitations of the video, "All our video had to be tortured, kicking and screaming, into the most horrifying, blurry, reduced-colour-palette mess imaginable in the Sega CD. I shudder to think about it"
Lol, yeah, FMV looked pretty bad, but that's what there was at the time. It was still a big leap from cartridges, only it was a grainy, poorly-colored leap.
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The first generation of DP's material was pretty bad looking on its own.
A good share of the press was bashing the shallow and very limited gameplay of those titles back in the days. It isn't just hindsight.
But they still sold. If you read about the multimedia revolution, that was the paradox that many talked about. There was little interaction, but people still ate it up. Naturally, companies are going to follow the money. The problem is that novelty only goes so far (hello QTEs!).
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Besides Sewer Shark, which was a pack-in game, and Night Trap which got popular due to the Senate bs, is there a FMV game which actually sold well on the Sega CD? Something which had SOA's money in it and brought any real value to the platform or any kind of positive reputation to it?
Tomcat Alley sold well, and I'm sure a few others sold enough to have warranted the cost. The problem I have with the FMV SEGA CD argument is that people talk forget that there really wasn't much else to bring out over here. The CD had a ton of RPGs, but those weren't more than a niche genre at the time, and SEGA (or anyone else) was going to bring them over. Things like Warau Salesman and Yumimi Mix were way too Japanese to come over, so there wasn't really anything else out there that showed off the hardware. People were buying FMV and it was something carts couldn't do, so they did it.
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Again, as a gamer, I love their MS-enhanced/made soundtracks for the Sega CD and its concept was actually pretty cool while certainly megalomaniac.
But if we're analyzing his services to SOA as a business man, that was a major failure. It's not that the MS was a whole bad idea but they executed it in a very lousy and megalomaniac way IMO. The ROI just isn't there.
The MS was executed in a bad way, I agree, but that's not representative of Kalinske's tenure overall. I don't think it's fair to say he never did any wrong, but it's also not fair to say he did nothing right. The MS was a failure, but it doesn't overshadow everything else.
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The problem with MS, IMO, is that the point which was supposed to justify its "on steroids" size was the one to fail the most: the two games that they created too a long time to be released and they didn't set the world on fire.
Here's an example of how the Sega Multimedia Studio was being treated by the press after some time (Rumor #4):
http://www.defunctgames.com/theysaid...nes-cd-is-real
The last line of rumor #4:
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Sega did eventually squander the multimedia studio they invested in. But that's neither here nor there, because in March of 1993 there was no way you could have known what was going to happen. Q-Mann, it's time you learn to be a little more patient.
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"If you were color blind and had an I.Q. of less than 12, then you wouldn't mind which portable you had."
That was part of the strategy. They were deliberately trying to be aggressive. That wasn't the problem with the GG. Battery life and games were.
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Do you think this was really effective?
I think they were part of a unified marketing strategy that was more successful on the Genesis than on the CD and Game Gear. SOA changed the packaging of its products to make them more unified, and used the same marketing tactic for all. It seems like sound logic and worked on the Genesis, so why not use it on the CD?
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But they did that by claiming that 16-bit stuff was surpassed, done (and the launch line-up had a good share of problems). While Nintendo went with the Super FX approach.
SOA took a lot more risks and when the 32X failed any argument in favor of the Genesis, aside from some big price cut, became totally nonsense.
SEGA's answer to the FX chip cost $100, and I've written about how I think it could have side-stepped the cost issue, but you're kind of arguing that one attempt to prolong the Genesis was better than another, when in truth neither were really needed. SEGA as a company should have skipped the 32X.
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Nintendo explored the whole Senate bs a lot better than SOA. While it gave a momentary boost to some violent games on the Genesis, it ended up hurting the Sega's brand in the long run. They were the "bad guys letting the violent games turn your sons into criminals".
Of course Nintendo did better with the Senate hearings, it was responsible for them! SEGA was the bad guy from the beginning. It didn't hurt the brand though. Night Trap sales soared, Mortal Kombat on Genesis outsold the SNES version 4-1, and Nintendo had to relent and allow blood and gore in MK2. In the long run, SEGA won that battle, I think.
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I might have fucked up with the dates then, because I thought it was branded STI under Kalinke's era.
I still don't understand why Sega didn't make any sequels for games like Kid Chameleon (I don't like it but a lot of people do) and Comix Zone at the time.
You will know, soon... I have a MAJOR project underway that actually answers all those questions! :D
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Mark Cerny said his initial team was trained/aided by SOJ people. Those were the foundations of the STI.
They were trained by the few Japanese people that came over. That's as far as the support from Japan went.
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At what cost, though? Sonic Spinball sold well but I'm pretty sure that Sonic's image suffered some downgrade after that one, especially for those who actually played it expecting a Sonic Team's quality product. I was one of those guys. My friends simply hated it and it took me some time to get into it but it never felt like a great game IMO.
But imagine that holiday season without it. I can hear people complaining that SEGA should have had a Sonic game, any Sonic game to compete with Nintendo that Christmas. I am glad that they waited and didn't rush Sonic 3 though.
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Yeah, let's pretend that all that I think and know is expressed by that one line item.
I can only comment on what you express!
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Again, as a gamer and a Sega fan, I have no problem with that or Kalinske at all.
But the picture isn't very nice from a business point of view.
STI was the most successful one IMO but Sonic X-Treme's debacle pretty much killed it after all.
SEGA Midwest was basically a failure. World Heroes isn't a good port and it was released like a whole year after the SNES version IIRC.
Multimedia Studios we already discussed.
SEGA Interactive was the most productive one IMO. Greendog: The Beached Surfer Dude, TaleSpin, Bonkers and Star Wars Arcade are mediocre/bad IMO.
Eternal Champions is OK and sold well. I can't say anything about Home Alone 2: Lost in New York.
Garfield: Caught in the Act is cool IMO but too short (yeah, the lost levels, where are they?).
Dinosaurs for Hire and Eternal Champions: Challenge from the Dark Side I really like and usually take crap here in the forums due to that, hehe.
So, that's SOA/SOJ business model.
OTOH, Nintendo went in a different direction with Rare going second party.
Killer Instinct was far more successful, not only in terms of sales, than Eternal Champions.
DKC pretty much stole the Sonic's momentum and SOA/SOJ never found a proper answer to it.
Some time after that, Sony did kinda like Nintendo with Psygnosis (and many others later on).
Sega's model wasn't as effective and during the 32-bit era it contributed to Saturn's failure in US IMO.
When STI failed to deliver "the new Sonic game", it was TT which "saved" some sales under a "work model" much more like Nintendo-Rare, Sony-Psygnosis than SOA's attempts.
This is only the half of it though. We have to also mention the great success SOA had with sports, signing developers to make games for it to publish, signing third party companies to make games for the Genesis, etc. All of that was part of the business model too, and it was very successful.
Eh, shitty peripherals are an industry standard. Considering how Kinect and the Wii took off, SEGA was actually ahead of its time! :D
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SOJ people, especially the executive ones, don't talk nearly as much as SOA's though. Well we both know how Japanese traditions deal with ex-employees and ex-employers.
That's the dilemma. How can anyone honestly say what SOJ truly thought or believed about SOA if no one has ever said so? No one, not even those who worked for other companies that did business with SEGA has stepped forward to debunk what former SOA people have said.
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All that I see as SOJ's "fault" here is the denial to green light some awful gameplay concepts.
Well, again... I have wonder about what criteria people use to reach the conclusion that SOJ was so much wiser and better at business than SOA when that company never got out of third place in its own country during the entire generation in question, and it only had success with one console (at the expense of all other territories).
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This is SOA's and only SOA's side of the history. The one SOJ guy who has spoken recently doesn't seem to tell the same thing.
And, IMO, SOJ's version about SOA's asking for a lower price solution and pushing it sounds a lot more reasonable.
The one "SOJ guy" was actually an SOA guy. Toyoda was completely on Kalinske's side, and he never refuted any of the 32X explanations, that I can recall.
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But, in either version, SOA's was responsible to complete the design around the SH2 CPUs. And they went with a software-only approach for 3D, that's Joe Miller not SOJ. And that's a huge mistake IMO.
SOJ wanted to release it as a separate machine (Genesis 2). Would that really have been smart, with the Saturn only a year away? I'm surprised that no one is asking why the hell SOJ even designed the thing in the first place? What was it supposed to accomplish if a 32-bit machine is already coming?
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Also, Kalinske blames SOJ for the lack of 32X games. Really??? Remove the SOJ's games form the 32X's library and see what lasts there.
Were the biggest 32X sellers in the US Japanese games? I honestly don't know. I know that Star Wars Arcade was a major hit.
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The same Kalinske, BITD, was talking proudly about how he would sell millions and millions of 32X units, take advantage of a PS1's slow start and make the add-on strong in the market for years. 20 years later, after failed to deliver his own promises over SOA's designed hardware he blames SOJ for everything.
You're confusing corporate speak with the reality of the situation. I don't know why this happens so much with Kalinske but not with other CEOs (Howard Lincoln did that ALL THE TIME). He's going to tell consumers that his product is the best thing since sliced bread, even if it's a crispy turd. That's his job. Now, years later, he doesn't work for them anymore and can speak his mind.
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IDK who said that but it certainly isn't a quote from SOJ.
Kalinske's:
"Now, I can sit here and tell you today that no matter how great Saturn is, or PlayStation is, or Ultra 64 is, we will outsell them by an enormous amount with 32X -- simply because of the price."
Kalinske gave the 600k figure. SOJ has never said anything about it.
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And that same question is ignored when we are to praise Kalinke's success with the Genesis.
Let's not forget the work that Kalinske's SOA had made on retailers prior to the Saturn launch.
The question isn't ignored when we talk about Kalinske and the Genesis; it's the whole point! He made it more successful than it was anywhere else in the world, including Japan. The Saturn retailer debacle was caused by the surprise launch, and the jury's still out on who caused that.
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That's ONE SIDE of the history, for Christ's sake.
Why the heck I'm supposed to swallow it like the ultimate truth?
Why I'm supposed to worship Kalinske and forget about all the down sides of his management?
Why I'm supposed to ignore the existence of other countries other than USA?
Why I'm supposed to blame the authors of the best games of the system and the system's great design itself for all problems occurred in US during Kalinske's era? Why?
No one expects you to worship anyone, but if you're going to argue about how poorly SOA did in the eyes of SOJ or paint SOJ as infallible, then you need some proof. I've seen nothing, NOTHING to refute anything said by any of the dozen or so SOA people I've spoken to, not even from American publishers, retailers, developers or anyone else who worked with SOA. Unless there is another side to the story - and are you sure there even is here? - that debunks this one, what reason do you have to say that they're all wrong? Is there some worldwide conspiracy against SOJ 20 years after the fact?
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If you know a thing, a single thing about Japanese culture you'll know the answer.
I'm not saying that SOJ's ex-employees will state the polar opposite of each and every SOA's ex-employees quotes, but to ignore the fact that it's a lot easier to get info from the Western side of things and that such info paints SOJ in a painful negative manner is to be very naive IMO, to say the least.
Again, where are the western retailers, publishers, developers - anyone who did business with SOA refuting what's been said? Lots of people have spoken to former developers and publisher executives about this and none have refuted anything the former SOA people have said.
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You can make 100,000 interviews with ex-SOA employees and you won't convince me differently than that Sega's history can have and probably has a whole different perspective if told from SOJ's side
We may never ever hear a substantial amount of info from SOJ's side but it doesn't matter that SOA's version is the only acceptable "truth".
So you enter the debate with your mind completely made up? Why debate then? There is no SOJ side to tell so far, and you're not even sure one exists. I base my argument on interviews and quotes from the SOA people who were there. All I've seen on the other side has been speculation, hindsight, and personal opinion. Nothing factual refutes any of it. Until someone finds such information, then SOA's version is the actual truth because there is no other version to refute it.
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This has little to no to do with my argument here.
Japanese games have gone downhill in the last gens, I won't argue here.
Again, I'm not a weebo by any stretch of imagination. I actually like US culture a lot more than JP's, I don't give a shit about mangas, JRPGs and the likes.
But don't expect me to swallow that Kalinske made everything which was successful during his era alone and that SOJ forced him to fail in everything else. I also find it quite disrespectful from his side to badmouth SOJ in every other interview he concedes.
They gave him a great console, several great games, a huge mascot and a lot of technical support.
He was really successful *only* during Sonic's absolute peak. He failed to counter Nintendo after DKC and he failed miserably with the Saturn in US.
So all the failures are entirely his fault, and all his success is owed to what Japan gave him? Gotcha. Funny how SOJ was totally incapable of emulating that same success in its own country, even with all that money, all those great games, and the same hardware. It couldn't get out of third place. I wonder who's fault that was?
