What you guys are forgetting is that there's not just that one single variant of the model 2 that you might be familiar with, there ARE differences between revisions. Some sound so unbelievably bad, it's just digusting.
What you guys are forgetting is that there's not just that one single variant of the model 2 that you might be familiar with, there ARE differences between revisions. Some sound so unbelievably bad, it's just digusting.
I think you give too much credit towards TV speakers being able to mask bad audio. Crappy speakers might hide the difference if one version had slightly weaker low end or something like that, they're not going to suddenly make a bad signal sound like a good one if there's something fundamentally wrong with the signal. From what I remember this kid's console had distortion, hiss and dodgy balance levels. They're not kind of things that get hidden by bad speakers, if anything they'll be made even worse if the speakers aren't capable of reproducing what the signal is telling them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pixelepsy
This is true. However, I don't recall ever reading that anyone was talking about a specific version of the Model 2, I only remember seeing blanket statements being made about Model 2's in general. I'm mostly arguing the point that I don't think the changes in Model 2s gave the majority of gamers a bad impression at the time of their release, and that due to RF signals and other factors, it could only sound so great in the first place.Quote:
Originally Posted by retrospiel
In the case of Dr. Robotnik's experience, perhaps the variant of Model 2 he experienced indeed was just awful. I don't think that makes the entire spectrum bad, however.
As far as the TV speakers go, I'm more along the lines of thinking that you could only get so good of a sound out of a GOOD model 1 or 2 to make it a true night and day difference when you experienced a bad model 2. Not so much that the TV speakers would mask bad audio, more so that they would the good audio. Personally I can't attest to the Model 2 variants that were really bad because I admittedly have only ever heard my own in person, and compared to my Model 1 VA1, it's certainly not as good...but not that bad either.
..not everybody used rf still in 1993 or 1994..there was a composite option..there were 60 inch tvs with big speakers on bottom in 1994..they even had widescreen tvs though rare..check virtua fighter 32x display option..not every 90s Tv was bad..not everyone used rf in mid 90s..people did have a snes and genesis or re bought a model 2 after model 1 died and noticed a difference..id rather hear music out a 90s Tv rather than a tiny pinhole of a Pc speaker now a days..
Widescreen was an option in countries like Japan where they had HD TV long before the US. In the US it was pretty much unheard of.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennab
As for composite, even using separated audio from Composite/S-Video/RGB it still doesn't sound that great through a TV speaker. When running stock systems through an average TV of the time the difference is minimal. It's certainly not big of enough to lend any credence to the theory that it gave the Genesis a bad reputation for audio. That responsibility rests solely on bad compositions, bad audio drivers, and games like Street Fighter 2.
My Model 2 is a VA0, so arguably the worst one. I've only ever been able to tell a significant difference when I've done recordings to my PC and listened to them with headphones. Going through my TV speakers the difference isn't that huge. Most the static, hisses, etc. are obscured leaving just some of the odd distortions. And even those aren't that noticeable if you're not actively listening for them.
Once again, this was recorded off a supposedly shitty model 2:
Does that really sound bad too you?
..right now my audio isnt hooked up to my stereo system so i cant answer your question and who is to say it is from that source actually..oh thats right even back then people did that, had rca wires into their speakers from a good stereo system to blast streets of rage..i sold and used drugs (ask barone) and had a 60 inch tv with huge speakers in it and noticed a difference..widescreen in japan blah blah yeah..it is a worldwide forum im posting on now..anyway but bottom line is you are wrong and many people showed why..
..first of all a separate line for video a yellow wire and a left and right audio jack provide better quality than rf esp separate audio frequencies compared to a video audio radio frequency so people did notice..did you a have a shitty 90s tv? i guess we didnt because the 10 or so of us against you can hear a difference and none of us are audiophiles we heard it then and we hear it now..13" tvs..24" inch..60 inch..bottom line..the model 2 did have a hand in giving the genesis a bad audio rep..you are wrong, you are wrong, soak it up..you are wrong..how bad was your tv in the 90s? sound fx alone you could tell the difference, see post 6, read peoples posts on sega channel then or internet now..you are wrong..you can post a youtube video from a honestly unknown "supposedly" SOURCE all you want..or not believe peoples life experiences..or talk about mega amps none existent then or whatever you want to troll on..but your are wrong..treks answer in this thread is just this yall lol https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9R3qI3iIxik
Well I don't think this was recorded from a console as bad as my brother's but I can easily tell even with my shitty laptop speakers.Quote:
Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118
Thing is that if you were used to something like an early model 1 and came to experience a model 2 later you'll certainly be able to tell the difference.
Actually it was recorded by the composer who wrote it, Tim Follin. He had it on his own site for years as an example of his work because the game itself was never released. Until it leaked a year or so ago that was the only source for that track. And if you look at the video, it's from before the full game got leaked.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennab
I'm not denying there's a difference in quality between the systems. I'm saying the average person wont notice, especially going through crappy TV speakers during an era when most people had these systems hooked up via RF. You're argument here is that the Model 2 sounded so bad that it's one of the main reasons the Genesis had a bad reputation for audio. For this to hold any water it needs to be noticeable by the average person over the connection typically used by the average person, RF. If it's not, then it's not going be a factor in what gave the Genesis a bad reputation for audio. Sure there's Sega Channel posts (do we actually have any evidence of these or are we just going off of hearsay?), but those aren't your average person. Those are your Genesis enthusiasts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennab
Here's a reality check for you. The following tracks all sound like shit, regardless of if they're played on a model 1, a model 2, or CCAM/Mega Amp modded system:
This was a high profile game that was covered in numerous media outlets that lots of people owned on lots of platforms. Having the Genesis version sound this bad did far more damage to it's audio reputation than the Model 2 system ever did. And this is just one example. There's tons of other multiplatform games on the system that suffered similar fates.
The comparison most people were doing in their living rooms wasn't a model 1 to a model 2. It was comparing tracks like the ones above to ones like these:
That comparison does far more damage to the system's audio capabilities than a Model 2 ever could. No Mega Amp or Model 1 is going to save those tracks from sounding like absolute dogshit. And it's sad really, as FM Conversions of those CPS2 themes could have sounded amazing if handled well:
Listen to those tracks and try to tell me again how the Model 2 is what gave the system such a bad reputation and not shitty compositions and shitty audio drivers.
..that is not what i meant by source..i meant did you see him record it from a genesis 1 or genesis 2 or 32 x audio out to a tape or cd before he had it on his site and somebody put it on youtube as a wav or mp3? did he improve it on his computer by remastering it? see what i mean now..Quote:
Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118
..most people still used rf in 1994 when the genesis 2, cdx, 32 x and even nomad came with composite video/audio cables? and idk my 13" bedroom tv had decent speakers, better than pc speakers now a days..im a average person and noticed, seems others in this thread were too..im pretty sure 50% of people used composite and 50% still used rf in usa in 1994, but i think the genesis 2 sold more than model 1..seems more common..however ill use your sentence against myself but against you too, dig up these most people used rf in 1994 stats "(do we actually have any evidence of these or are we just going off of hearsay?)"Quote:
I'm not denying there's a difference in quality between the systems. I'm saying the average person wont notice, especially going through crappy TV speakers during an era when most people had these systems hooked up via RF.
..your arguing against yourself..the average person wasnt deaf..people who used composite and who used both models did notice and thats what me and the others here are telling you..maybe they even noticed over radio frequency..maybe not a main reason, but a reason nonetheless..Quote:
You're argument here is that the Model 2 sounded so bad that it's one of the main reasons the Genesis had a bad reputation for audio. For this to hold any water it needs to be noticeable by the average person over the connection typically used by the average person, RF. If it's not, then it's not going be a factor in what gave the Genesis a bad reputation for audio.
..dont you remember the sega channel "phorum" that had discussions of it? in the 90s..Quote:
Sure there's Sega Channel posts (do we actually have any evidence of these or are we just going off of hearsay?), but those aren't your average person. Those are your Genesis enthusiasts.
..im not the one who needs a reality check you are..but ill answer your statement with, and?Quote:
Here's a reality check for you. The following tracks all sound like shit, regardless of if they're played on a model 1, a model 2, or CCAM/Mega Amp modded system:
..i agree to an extent but listen to those same tracks from a model 1 then model 2 and if you say the model 2 audio of said songs are worse, as you already admitted, then obviously the model 2 did give a hand in peoples opinions of the genesis audio quality..regardless of how small..it did..that is what we are telling you..Quote:
This was a high profile game that was covered in numerous media outlets that lots of people owned on lots of platforms. Having the Genesis version sound this bad did far more damage to it's audio reputation than the Model 2 system ever did. And this is just one example. There's tons of other multiplatform games on the system that suffered similar fates.
..is was a combination of composers either badly mastering their songs before putting them into cart or did master them good but compressed them too much to fit in a cart, not great compositions in the first place utilizing the audio as best as possible AND the hardware playback on the model 2..most people had a model 2 it seems..see post 6, "sonic games arent affected by this hey they sound great yes great genesis games for once on my model 2" no no see post 6 it sounds worse..night and day..Quote:
Listen to those tracks and try to tell me again how the Model 2 is what gave the system such a bad reputation and not shitty compositions and shitty audio drivers.
So you're calling Tim Follin a liar?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennab
Here is a box shot of a Vectorman Genesis bundle:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennab
http://segaretro.org/images/b/bc/MD2..._Vectorman.jpg
This was sold from late 1995 through 1996 most likely. What does that say at the bottom in what's included? "TV Antenna Switch box". Gee, that sounds an awful lot like an RF adapter doesn't it?
Here's the Sonic and Knuckles bundle from 1994-1995:
http://segaretro.org/images/d/db/MD2..._Front_SaK.jpg
What does this one come with? Oh right, TV Antenna Switch Box, aka an RF adapter.
Here's the Lion King bundle from 1994:
http://segaretro.org/images/0/0a/MD2...t_LionKing.jpg
As with the others, TV Antenna Switch box.
Here's the Sonic 2 Bundle, the one I got for Christmas in 1993, as well as the original Model 2 launch box:
http://segaretro.org/images/7/7f/MD2...ont_Sonic2.jpg
http://segaretro.org/images/a/ac/MD2..._Front_TCS.jpg
Note again the mention of a TV Antenna Switch box. And before you say "Well maybe it just said that and it came with an AV cable!" here's a Majesco Model 2 box from late 1997/1998:
http://segaretro.org/images/6/61/SGe..._Box_Front.jpg
Note that it says AV Cable now. So no, the model 2 was NOT being shipped with Composite AV cables in 1994. The CDX did, as did the 32X. But those were being marketed to technology enthusiasts. And since you needed a Genesis to use the 32X anyways, they probably figured most people had an RF adapter if they needed one.
Looking at Model 1 boxes, it looks like those all came with RF cables as well.
I'm not saying people are deaf, I'm saying that the difference between a model 1 and a model 2 through crappy TV speakers isn't that noticeable to the average consumer. To audiophiles maybe, but not the average user. It's really only noticeable with decent sound equipment or when listening to recordings with decent headphones. For it to have given the system a bad reputation it needed to be noticeable to the average consumer over crappy TV speakers using the connection the average consumer would use. Since we've just proven that the system was being packaged with RF cables as late as 1996, it's safe to assume this is what the average consumer was using.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennab
No because I didn't have Sega Channel. My parents didn't think it was worth the money. And still, to prove this now we need to see evidence of these posts. Do you have any screenshots of them? Otherwise it's just he said she said.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennab
And which do you think did more damage in the long run? Model 2's sounding slightly worse than Model 1's over crappy RF connections? Or games like Super Street Fighter 2 having extremely lazy, shitty compositions?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennab
A model 1 isn't going to make those tracks sound any less shitty or lazy. The compositions stand on their own merits. They're awful renditions that are blown away by their counterparts on just about every other platform they're on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennab
Do you have any idea how the Genesis' audio system works? There's no compressing or mastering going on for songs. All the notes, instruments, waveforms, etc. are generated in real time. The only things that aren't generated in real time are the PCM samples, which are reserved mostly for voice samples, sound effects, and drums in most games.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennab
The examples I posted are simply bad compositions with poor instruments. They could have done far better as the X68000 renditions prove. The YM2151 isn't too different from the YM2612. While yes it has 2 more channels, FM Instruments can for the most part be replicated faithfully between the two, as Hyperstone Heist proves:
In the grand scheme of things, the model 2's more muffled/distorted sound is insignificant next to all the lazy and extremely poor compositions, instruments, and sound drivers used by many third party developers.
..i dont know him so idk..did he say how he recorded the audio? did you witness it?Quote:
Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118
..of course..but you could go to radio shack or babbages or eb or many other places and buy a composite for a model 2 or model 1 for 5 bucks, that is why those consoles had that option in rear of unit too..since 1989..or better yet just buy a stereo y cable for a model 1 in 1989 for $3 and hook up to tv/stereo..duh.. http://gametrog.com/goblin/images/Ho...audio-jack.jpgQuote:
Here is a box shot of a Vectorman Genesis bundle:
This was sold from late 1995 through 1996 most likely. What does that say at the bottom in what's included? "TV Antenna Switch box". Gee, that sounds an awful lot like an RF adapter doesn't it?
..well i said model 2 (the one you posted did), 32 x, cdx and i think the portable nomad. fair enough most model 2s did not come bundled with them, but rf was a cheap default way to view on tv, again cheap wires at radio shack improved your experience..your telling me by 1994, 1995, 1996 composite wasnt thee medium to use lol? and i think your years are off..model 2 core systems sold in 1994 not 1998 lol..how do i know thats a majesco core system and not an earlier 1995 type one esp when majesco were selling model 3s in the same year you claim they are selling that model 2..Quote:
Note that it says AV Cable now. So no, the model 2 was NOT being shipped with Composite AV cables in 1994. The CDX did, as did the 32X. But those were being marketed to technology enthusiasts. And since you needed a Genesis to use the 32X anyways, they probably figured most people had an RF adapter if they needed one.
..i would agree, oh look on the back of my model 1s there is a composite option woah way back in 1989 yes..or y cable in front..ah yes..to help your argument out, even my saturn came with rf in 995 but my cdx came with av in 1994 hmm, but like i said rf was just a cheap default, just buying cheap av wires like people who need hdmi for certain products now is no big deal..eventually genesis, saturn others did come with av cables..seems 32 x beat them all to the punch..but you did post a model 2 with av..no streets of rage cover or nfl package or others that say av?Quote:
Looking at Model 1 boxes, it looks like those all came with RF cables as well.
..and we are saying otherwise..btw an audiophile could tell better than us.."90 crappy dappy tv speakers" well lets look at an option not a headphone or tv but from 1989 http://i.ytimg.com/vi/dBhihduvUF8/hqdefault.jpgQuote:
I'm not saying people are deaf, I'm saying that the difference between a model 1 and a model 2 through crappy TV speakers isn't that noticeable to the average consumer. To audiophiles maybe, but not the average user.
..no people used rca cables from the mid 80s even until now for audio..Quote:
It's really only noticeable with decent sound equipment or when listening to recordings with decent headphones. For it to have given the system a bad reputation it needed to be noticeable to the average consumer over crappy TV speakers using the connection the average consumer would use. Since we've just proven that the system was being packaged with RF cables as late as 1996, it's safe to assume this is what the average consumer was using.
..screenshots from a cable service going into my genesis, hmm no, or a polaroid of the phorum from my tv as a print screen button wasnt on my controller and a 20 year old polariod of a tv displaying sega channel text might be impossible to see..sega channel was what $20 a month you got 100 games i think alien soldier, new sports games, vectorman and many others..good deal..Quote:
No because I didn't have Sega Channel. My parents didn't think it was worth the money. And still, to prove this now we need to see evidence of these posts. Do you have any screenshots of them? Otherwise it's just he said she said.
..which audio of said music would sound worse? ah the model 2, you answered your own question..Quote:
And which do you think did more damage in the long run? Model 2's sounding slightly worse than Model 1's over crappy RF connections? Or games like Super Street Fighter 2 having extremely lazy, shitty compositions?
..and dont forget even sounding worse on model 2s..Quote:
A model 1 isn't going to make those tracks sound any less shitty or lazy. The compositions stand on their own merits. They're awful renditions that are blown away by their counterparts on just about every other platform they're on.
..do you have any idea how engineering works? a composer will make a song, save it/keyboard data on floppy or zip, then make a 44.1 or maybe now 92.1 wav of it..most likely 56 mb to 75 mb big. can a game hold that master 56mb song or 3mb worth of data info to play back the notes required on genesis during game? no. compression is needed, converting and compressing a wav to vgm data or register data the console will play back which is what groovemaster did for project y. level 1 select actives vgm song to be played i dont consider it notes per say because those drums, voices and pianos are sampled anyway so just playing a vgm of 1 minute song loop or so is just the same as playing the drums, voices and sampled instruments except the genesis cant do that all at once so a loop is needed, see bad apple demo. forget all that though..if i record a pindrop..which sound system would sound worse playing it back a model 1 or 2? model 2..enough said..Quote:
Do you have any idea how the Genesis' audio system works? There's no compressing or mastering going on for songs. All the notes, instruments, waveforms, etc. are generated in real time. The only things that aren't generated in real time are the PCM samples, which are reserved mostly for voice samples, sound effects, and drums in most games.
..no its as much as 25% of the pie/pizza chart as the other 3 things you mentioned..you are the only one in this thread that cant see that..because..wait for it..you are wrong..hint hint see post 52..and many othersQuote:
The examples I posted are simply bad compositions with poor instruments. They could have done far better as the X68000 renditions prove. The YM2151 isn't too different from the YM2612. While yes it has 2 more channels, FM Instruments can for the most part be replicated faithfully between the two, as Hyperstone Heist proves:
In the grand scheme of things, the model 2's more muffled/distorted sound is insignificant next to all the lazy and extremely poor compositions, instruments, and sound drivers used by many third party developers.
He's probably one of the best composers for video game music. And yes, he stated a while ago it was recorded off of a Model 2 system. But forgetting that, what does it sound like it was recorded off of to you? What do you think it was recorded off of based on how it sounds?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennab
But the average consumer didn't. The average consumer was satisfied with the RF adapter that came with the system. It's why you still see so many of them being sold on ebay "with hookups" and it's with just the RF adapter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennab
I'm telling you that as far as 1996 maybe even 1997 Sega was still only including an RF adapter with the system. And you're completley full of shit right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennab
The model 2 was released in 1993 along with the Sonic 2 bundle. Those clearly say they came with RF adapters. The Lion King and Sonic and Knuckles bundles have to be 1994, as that's when those games were released. They couldn't have been available any time sooner. So we have confirmation that in 1994 they were still only including RF adapters. The Vectorman bundle has to be 1995-1996, because Vector Man was released in late October of 1995. That bundle couldn't have been available before then. So again, we have confirmation that as late as 1995 and 1996 that Sega was still bundling in only RF adapters.
Majesco took over production of the system in 1997, and before making the Model 3 made Model 2's. This is where most of the VA4's come from if I remember correctly. You can tell them apart because they have a different serial number. We know that's a Majesco box because the back of the box says so:
http://segaretro.org/images/8/83/SGe...S_Box_Back.jpg
The earliest that bundle could have been available is 1997. Bottom line is you're wrong. The Model 2 was not being sold with Composite cables in 1994.
I checked all the ones I could, they all came with RF Adapters until the Majesco one. And yes, Composite was always an option, but again the average consumer stuck with the RF adapter that came with the system. The CDX did come with an AV cable, but as with the 32X it wasn't marketed to the average consumer. It was marketed towards enthusiasts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennab
Those are pretty shitty run of the mill cheapo speakers if I remember correctly. And again, did the average consumer grab stereo off the headphone jack? No, they stuck with RF.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennab
Did the average consumer mod their Genesis to use RCA cables? Did they use a Y Cable for their model 1? Did they buy composite cables? While a few may have, the overwhelming majority was probably fine with RF. Which is the point here. We're not talking about the enthusiasts. We're talking about the average consumers. These people didn't use the best connections or compare Genesis revisions. They just hooked up the RF adapter, switched to channel 3 and turned the thing on. This majority would not have noticed the difference between the Model 1 and Model 2 sound. Which is why in the grand scheme of things the Model 2's impact on the system's public perception was minimal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennab
So you have no proof then?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennab
Play Super Street Fighter 2 on a Model 1 or a Model 2. Both sound like shit, because the game sounds like shit. A polished turd is still a turd. The model 1 vs model 2 comparison is irrelevant here. The system's reputation was damaged by bad compositions, instruments, and poor sound drivers. The model 2 sounding slightly more distorted was insignificant by comparison.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennab
Fixed that for you. A good composition is still going to sound acceptable on the Model 2. A bad composition still sounds bad regardless of what model it's played on. That's the point. The model 2's issues weren't significant issues in regards to the public perception of the system's audio capabilities. Pull your cocky head out of your ass and look at the big picture here. There's far bigger issues that played a part in the system's reputation for bad audio. In fact I'd say those other issues are major enough that the Model 2's slightly worse audio isn't even on the radar. That's the point I've been trying to tell you. For the Model 2's audio issues to even be considered having an impact on the system's reputation you have to ignore so many other major issues that it just becomes absurd and delusional.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennab
I highly suggest you go do some serious research on this. That's not how making music for the Genesis works. You don't "Compress a wav to a vgm" and poof have Genesis music. It's much more low level than that. You're basically feeding the audio chip your note information and telling it to configure the individual channels to produce different wave forms. It's not playing back a recording. It's performing the music in real time every time. You've confused the Genesis sound system with that of the SNES. The Genesis only has one PCM channel, and it's used mostly for drums, voices, and sound effects. The rest of the channels are PSG and FM Synthesis. They don't use samples. They instead generate sounds in real time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennab
Go look at disassemblies of different games. You're not going to see compressed wav data for the music. You're instead going to see note data for each channel. Go play around with something like Famitracker or VGMMaker if you want to get an idea of what's actually going on.
It's more like bad compositions take the majority of the blame, with bad instruments coming in a close second. Bad Sound drivers would be third since good compositions and instruments can still make a bad sound driver sound decent (See Earthworm Jim for example).Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennab
The Model 2 I wouldn't even put on the pie chart. If the other 3 issues didn't exist, the system wouldn't have a reputation for bad audio. Take the Model 2 out of the Equation and any of the other three would still give the system's audio a bad reputation on their own.
..sounds good but you call people liars in this thread and all im saying is did he improve it after it was recorded and do you or do you not know for a fact?Quote:
Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118
..avg people got y cables..i was one of them..Quote:
But the average consumer didn't. The average consumer was satisfied with the RF adapter that came with the system. It's why you still see so many of them being sold on ebay "with hookups" and it's with just the RF adapter.
..full of shit about what? you proved almost all genesis came with rf, i'll give you that..but majesco model 2 and 3 and sega stuff like cdx as i said did come with av i think most snes came with rf but some came with av..im not claiming i could hear difference in rf but others are, however im claiming my model 1 with a y cable in 1989 sounded way better than a model 2 with av cable out the back with 1 mono white wire to my said systems..Quote:
I'm telling you that as far as 1996 maybe even 1997 Sega was still only including an RF adapter with the system. And you're completley full of shit right now.
..ok..and again ill give you that, i even said my saturn came with rf..but since my snes had av i thought genesis came with av but i must have bought mine at babbages..fair enough..Quote:
The model 2 was released in 1993 along with the Sonic 2 bundle. Those clearly say they came with RF adapters. The Lion King and Sonic and Knuckles bundles have to be 1994, as that's when those games were released. They couldn't have been available any time sooner. So we have confirmation that in 1994 they were still only including RF adapters. The Vectorman bundle has to be 1995-1996, because Vector Man was released in late October of 1995. That bundle couldn't have been available before then. So again, we have confirmation that as late as 1995 and 1996 that Sega was still bundling in only RF adapters.
..cool..i see they sell on ebay for $700, oh heres proof, wow glad i have a print screen in 2015 wish i had one in 1995 on my genesis controller.. http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-SEGA-GEN...-/180563454947Quote:
Majesco took over production of the system in 1997, and before making the Model 3 made Model 2's. This is where most of the VA4's come from if I remember correctly. You can tell them apart because they have a different serial number. We know that's a Majesco box because the back of the box says so:
..and as i said many times now..you got that..fair enough..i am wrong about that..Quote:
The earliest that bundle could have been available is 1997. Bottom line is you're wrong. The Model 2 was not being sold with Composite cables in 1994.
..32 x seemed to be marketed like any sega product but with the other stuff yes ill give you that..did nomad come with them?Quote:
I checked all the ones I could, they all came with RF Adapters until the Majesco one. And yes, Composite was always an option, but again the average consumer stuck with the RF adapter that came with the system. The CDX did come with an AV cable, but as with the 32X it wasn't marketed to the average consumer. It was marketed towards enthusiasts.
..and how do you know a shit ton of people didnt do what i did way back in 1989 and buy a cheap y cable for tv or stereo? it wasnt hard man..even in what 1991 or 1992 the sega cd came with a 3.5 and its instruction book recommended you connect 3.5 out of front of genesis, then have common rca cables go out of sega cd into a stereo..lol man stop..and those speakers were free at one time like power base converter iirc..Quote:
Those are pretty shitty run of the mill cheapo speakers if I remember correctly. And again, did the average consumer grab stereo off the headphone jack? No, they stuck with RF.
..no mod needed just buy a y cable..Quote:
Did the average consumer mod their Genesis to use RCA cables?
..i even think sega cds came with rca and a connection cable to genesis right?Quote:
Did they use a Y Cable for their model 1? Did they buy composite cables?
..well according to damn near everybody in this thread they did hear a difference..Quote:
While a few may have, the overwhelming majority was probably fine with RF. Which is the point here. We're not talking about the enthusiasts. We're talking about the average consumers. These people didn't use the best connections or compare Genesis revisions. They just hooked up the RF adapter, switched to channel 3 and turned the thing on. This majority would not have noticed the difference between the Model 1 and Model 2 sound. Which is why in the grand scheme of things the Model 2's impact on the system's public perception was minimal.
..no and so i must apologize that my genesis controller didnt have a print screen button in 1995 or 1996 while i was on sc phorum to be used 20 years later in our discussion here..i also dont have a picture of me putting on socks, but i assure you i wear socks..Quote:
So you have no proof then?
..no model 2 sounds EVEN worse..point..Quote:
Play Super Street Fighter 2 on a Model 1 or a Model 2. Both sound like shit, because the game sounds like shit. A polished turd is still a turd. The model 1 vs model 2 comparison is irrelevant here.
..and finally this is where you and me disagree, id say it is 20 - 25% to blame and you say it is like 1%..Quote:
The system's reputation was damaged by bad compositions, instruments, and poor sound drivers. The model 2 sounding slightly more distorted was insignificant by comparison.
..no the point is a great or bad compositions SOUND QUALITY sounds worse on a model 2..Quote:
Fixed that for you. A good composition is still going to sound acceptable on the Model 2. A bad composition still sounds bad regardless of what model it's played on. That's the point.
..i would advise you to look at peoples posts in this thread..Quote:
The model 2's issues weren't significant issues in regards to the public perception of the system's audio capabilities. Pull your cocky head out of your ass and look at the big picture here.
..im not ignoring them, im giving all 4 things you mentioned equal space on the pie chart..ill even give the sound quality just 20%..maybe 10% but its there..Quote:
There's far bigger issues that played a part in the system's reputation for bad audio. In fact I'd say those other issues are major enough that the Model 2's slightly worse audio isn't even on the radar. That's the point I've been trying to tell you. For the Model 2's audio issues to even be considered having an impact on the system's reputation you have to ignore so many other major issues that it just becomes absurd and delusional.
..that was how bad apple demo was done..Quote:
I highly suggest you go do some serious research on this. That's not how making music for the Genesis works. You don't "Compress a wav to a vgm" and poof have Genesis music.
..yes as i said note info put into carts so it can playback on genesis, some synths require 1 to 3mb of data/save/note midi info so how does that go into cart? you are right i dont know much about genesis audio dev kits as i only saw that "1993" documentary once and couldnt figure out that for demo midi interface connected into port but they must reduce mb info to the notes can playback on genesis yes how can a 2mb game have mbs worth of note midi info in them?Quote:
It's much more low level than that. You're basically feeding the audio chip your note information and telling it to configure the individual channels to produce different wave forms.
..bad apple..Quote:
It's not playing back a recording.
..i do have systems confused yes i researched the snes, genesis, tg16, nes, and others and i must do more research..genesis plays fm per note info but has a sample channel yes?Quote:
It's performing the music in real time every time. You've confused the Genesis sound system with that of the SNES.
..yes you compose a track on a fm synth with midi like dx7, save those notes into data put somehow that 1mb note data on cart and genesis plays back said notes in fm, as genesis is mostly fm as you said yes yes..but how can ONE pcm sample channel play a sampled kick, snare, voice sample and piano AT ONCE like groovemasters project y level 1 song? loops could be used..even full songs, see bad apple..Quote:
The Genesis only has one PCM channel, and it's used mostly for drums, voices, and sound effects. The rest of the channels are PSG and FM Synthesis. They don't use samples. They instead generate sounds in real time.
..i will do more research but please answer my question above..Quote:
Go look at disassemblies of different games. You're not going to see compressed wav data for the music. You're instead going to see note data for each channel. Go play around with something like Famitracker or VGMMaker if you want to get an idea of what's actually going on.
..and 4th id put the system playing back said things as it has the worst sound quality..take all 3 things you said now play them back on cd then on a fisher price cassette player..what is worse..oh yeah thats the point..Quote:
It's more like 1 bad compositions take the majority of the blame, with bad instruments coming in a close second. Bad Sound drivers would be third since good compositions and instruments can still make a bad sound driver sound decent (See Earthworm Jim for example).
..but i cant take the model 2 out of the equation, its sound quality is worse than the model 1s and since most people had model 2s and heard anything great or bad as even worse than model 1 sound quality wise even having louder hiss..and it has a hand in it..see..peoples..posts..in..this..thread..Quote:
The Model 2 I wouldn't even put on the pie chart. If the other 3 issues didn't exist, the system wouldn't have a reputation for bad audio. Take the Model 2 out of the Equation and any of the other three would still give the system's audio a bad reputation on their own.
..hook up your rf, can you hear a difference in audio quality from a va3 model 1 to model 2 to saturn audio..no no rf..you can tell the difference..even if you cant..others in thread did..so overall, you seem to be wrong here..you need more people call barone for help..
http://i57.tinypic.com/3097zpu.jpg
..just do a simple experiment..see post 6..since that was recorded from said consoles, just record that audio, burn on cd from cpu cd burner, take that cd and put it in your saturn with rf in a 90s tv and tell me if you can hear the differences..i bet you can!
He didn't improve it, it's just a straight up recording to a cassette if I remember correctly. But again, what system do YOU think it was recorded off of based on how it sounds?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennab
And I didn't call anyone a liar. I just said the average consumer wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a Model 1 and a Model 2 over RF, which is what most people used.
Then why are so many Model 1's being sold online and at flea markets not including Y Cables if the average consumer was buying them?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennab
The Majseco models didn't come out until late 1997, and 1998. The system already had a bad reputation by that point. No one here has claimed they could hear the difference over RF. They are saying they can tell a difference over recordings and better audio set ups.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennab
I think the Nomad did come with AV cables, but again that came out in late 1995, early 1996 I think. Also it wasn't marketed at the average consumer, it's high price point and low sales prove that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennab
Due to the fact that the average consumer usually is fine with the included cables. Back during this era RF was extremely common and it was how most people hooked up their consoles, VCRs, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennab
The speakers were part of a promotion yes, but their rarity today proves they weren't mainstream and most people with Genesis sytems didn't have them. And I don't think the Power Base Converter was ever included with the system.
I was replying to your specific comment of RCA cables.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennab
Yes, and the Sega CD wasn't marketed to the average consumer. It was marketed to enthusiasts. The high price and low sales prove that. Of the 35-40 million odd Genesis systems sold, only about 2-6 million Sega CD's sold. That's at best a 17% attach rate, but more realistically a 5% attach rate. That's not the average consumer or the majority.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennab
They hear it now after years of people telling them that and listening to recordings over decent headphones. Through TV speakers it's harder to tell the difference. Audiophiles and enthusiasts can tell because they know exactly what to listen for. The average consumer doesn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennab
Yeah well for making a claim like you were trying to make, without evidence it's just hearsay. In short, pics or it didn't happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennab
Sure, a Model 2 may sound worse. But the game sounds like shit regardless of what you play it on. Streets of Rage 2 on the other hand is still enjoyable to listen to, even on a Model 2. A good composition still sounds good on a Model 2. A bad composition still sounds bad on a Model 1. That's the point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennab
Because it is about 1% of the blame. If the Model 2 sounded like a Model 1, the system would still have a bad reputation for audio. If all those games with bad instruments, bad audio drivers, and bad compositions had better instruments, better sound drivers, and better compositions, I highly doubt the system would have the bad reputation it has for audio.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennab
Yes, things sound slightly worse on the Model 2. The question is do they sound worse enough to affect the public perception of the system. That's a lot tougher to prove as you have to prove the average consumer using RF could tell a difference. You also need to prove that those bad compositions didn't have as big of an impact as they did.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennab
I have read them, you need to realize the people posting on this site are not average consumers. They're enthusiasts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennab
All they are not all equally responsible. Model 2 audio quality is barely a blip on the radar. This whole thread is you trying to blame the system's bad audio reputation on the Model 2.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennab
Yes because the Bad Apple demo is a tech demo. Few if any real games did that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennab
You really have no idea what you're talking about. Instruments for the Genesis were made using the Genesis sound chip or similar chips. They didn't need to be compressed down to fit. They just needed to be compatible. You're not compressing the instruments down to fit in a cart. You're just telling the YM2612 how to modulate the waveforms when it produces them. FM Synth is a completey different kind of sound generation from what you're thinking of. The whole idea having to compress data to fit on a cart is not applicable to FM Synth.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennab
Again, tech demo. Part of the demo is ADPCM playback. If you want to hear how it would sound doing actual FM Synth download this one:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennab
http://68000.web.fc2.com/bad_apple.html
Yes and no. The Genesis has 6 FM Synth channels. The 6th Channel can act as a DAC to play digital audio samples such as PCM. It's not really a true PCM channel, it's more of an elaborate hack. Again though, samples are used mostly for voices, sound effects, and drums in most games. The bulk of the music is performed by FM Synth and PSG channels.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennab
If the FM synth instruments for your Genesis compositions are 1MB in size you're doing something wrong. How some games can appear to play multiple samples at once is through software mixing. It has limitations though and is not going to be used for many instruments in songs. For example Stef's engine that does 4 PCM channels is limited in that it can't change the pitch of the samples making it less effective for PCM instruments. It's good for drums, voices, and sound effects though, like most Genesis games use the DAC for.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennab
Except the Model 1 vs Model 2 isn't like a CD vs a Cassette. It's like a new Cassette vs a moderately used Cassette. It's not just a few games with bad compositions, it's tons of them. Even games released before the Model 2 came out:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennab
Just about any game from EA, any game using GEMS, most SNES ports, etc. all have extremely poor compositions, instruments, and sound drivers. A Model 1 isn't going to make Doom 32X sound amazing. A Model 1 isn't going to make any of EA's games sound like orchestras. A Model 1 isn't going to make Rock 'n' Roll Racing's crappy Midi to FM conversions sound on par with the SNES versions.
Way to miss the point. The point is even if the Model 2 sounded like a Model 1, the system would still have a bad reputation for audio as those 3 other issues are far more damaging than the Model 2 ever could be.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennab
..i said it sounded good..you didnt see me type that? did you take a picture of him doing it though, you witnessed him not improving audio on computer before uploading it on site hmm?"pics or it didnt happen" lol.."Yeah well for making a claim like you were trying to make, without evidence it's just hearsay. In short, pics or it didn't happen."Quote:
Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118
..some people claimed a life experience by a member here didnt happen..with model 1s needed to be taken over friends house because of how aweful model 2 sound was..Quote:
And I didn't call anyone a liar. I just said the average consumer wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a Model 1 and a Model 2 over RF, which is what most people used.
..why should they, you can buy them for under a dollar from china now..why are so many 32x sold without plastic mounts they came with or all cables you need, just 1 out of 2 if your lucky, why are sega cds sold without power supplies or 3.5 cables they came with, why are so many genesis come with no games or red plastic tabs on expansion port on ebay now..idk..people lose things..Quote:
Then why are so many Model 1's being sold online and at flea markets not including Y Cables if the average consumer was buying them?
http://i59.tinypic.com/2pypdmc.jpg
..people in this thread did say they can hear a difference over rf oh nevermind..Quote:
The Majseco models didn't come out until late 1997, and 1998. The system already had a bad reputation by that point. No one here has claimed they could hear the difference over RF. They are saying they can tell a difference over recordings and better audio set ups.
..crazy how a portable system in 1995 came with av cables yet model 2s in 1995 or 1996 or 1997 but until 1998 didnt..Quote:
I think the Nomad did come with AV cables, but again that came out in late 1995, early 1996 I think. Also it wasn't marketed at the average consumer, it's high price point and low sales prove that.
..yes and y cables, rca cables were common, etc too..Quote:
Due to the fact that the average consumer usually is fine with the included cables. Back during this era RF was extremely common and it was how most people hooked up their consoles, VCRs, etc.
..it was the same kind of promotion..Quote:
The speakers were part of a promotion yes, but their rarity today proves they weren't mainstream and most people with Genesis sytems didn't have them. And I don't think the Power Base Converter was ever included with the system.
..behold..the point..Quote:
Sure, a Model 2 may sound worse.
..sound quality and compositions are 2 different things..we are talking the systems sound quality..Quote:
But the game sounds like shit regardless of what you play it on. Streets of Rage 2 on the other hand is still enjoyable to listen to, even on a Model 2. A good composition still sounds good on a Model 2. A bad composition still sounds bad on a Model 1. That's the point.
..and what have people said in this thread?Quote:
Yes, things sound slightly worse on the Model 2. The question is do they sound worse enough to affect the public perception of the system. That's a lot tougher to prove as you have to prove the average consumer using RF could tell a difference.
..this is where we disagree again, im saying it has a major role yes..sure a 3 bar beat measure instead of 4 hurts, an off key piano hurts, bad hiss or bad playback hurt ears too..Quote:
All they are not all equally responsible. Model 2 audio quality is barely a blip on the radar. This whole thread is you trying to blame the system's bad audio reputation on the Model 2.
..it seems like i did know what i was talking about, you play a song on a fm dx7 or keyboard like on 1993 docu using an interface that directly uses genesis chip , for me the data of music notes for a 48 bar song save as 1mb, but lets just say its kbs, and the genesis will play the said info back on genesis as data for music was saved on a cart and genesis used sound chip to replay note for note as mostly fm but also has a drum sample track, like keyboard used in the 1993 docu, did you ever see that video? what was i wrong about, sample loops could be used for genesis..even a whole tech demo song so..anyway.. https://youtu.be/lCnaw07LaS0?t=12m06sQuote:
You really have no idea what you're talking about. Instruments for the Genesis were made using the Genesis sound chip or similar chips. They didn't need to be compressed down to fit. They just needed to be compatible. You're not compressing the instruments down to fit in a cart. You're just telling the YM2612 how to modulate the waveforms when it produces them. FM Synth is a completey different kind of sound generation from what you're thinking of. The whole idea having to compress data to fit on a cart is not applicable to FM Synth Yes and no. The Genesis has 6 FM Synth channels. The 6th Channel can act as a DAC to play digital audio samples such as PCM. It's not really a true PCM channel, it's more of an elaborate hack. Again though, samples are used mostly for voices, sound effects, and drums in most games. The bulk of the music is performed by FM Synth and PSG channels. If the FM synth instruments for your Genesis compositions are 1MB in size you're doing something wrong. How some games can appear to play multiple samples at once is through software mixing. It has limitations though and is not going to be used for many instruments in songs. For example Stef's engine that does 4 PCM channels is limited in that it can't change the pitch of the samples making it less effective for PCM instruments. It's good for drums, voices, and sound effects though, like most Genesis games use the DAC for.
..who said a model 1 could play a note composition/song better, but the general rule for audio is your recording will sound as good as the system playing it, very hard to improve, well now it could be a little in 2015 but, you get whats put out..sf2 on model 1 has better sound quality than a model 2..sorry but true..thats the point..see my mr wizard experiment in previous post..Quote:
A Model 1 isn't going to make Doom 32X sound amazing. A Model 1 isn't going to make any of EA's games sound like orchestras. A Model 1 isn't going to make Rock 'n' Roll Racing's crappy Midi to FM conversions sound on par with the SNES versions.
or here..
http://i57.tinypic.com/3097zpu.jpg
..just do a simple experiment..see post 6..since that was recorded from said consoles, just record that audio, burn on cd from cpu cd burner, take that cd and put it in your saturn with rf in a 90s tv and tell me if you can hear the differences..i bet you can!
..i agree to an extent, the snes 90s 12 bit sampled sounds vs 80s 4bit 13 hz or 22 hz samples and 8 bit 33 hz fm synth sound or whatever..sure i can see why people like snes sound..but people here say they heard a difference when they owned both genesis models then and now..now see.that..is..the..point..now does that hurt the model 2 rep, by you saying it sounds worse, ah..Quote:
The point is even if the Model 2 sounded like a Model 1, the system would still have a bad reputation for audio as those 3 other issues are far more damaging than the Model 2 ever could be.