The synth demo videos are cool, but what does it have to do with the Genesis model 2? I don't think the Model 2 had too much influence over developers or composers. Most of them used model 1 devkits.
Also, the title of the first video is misleading.
..because the factory model 2's sounded worse than model 1's va3's with 3.5mm/1/8th front jack audio stereo out or such overall.. https://youtu.be/F3rrjQtQe5A?t=4m46s ..i honestly think model 2's and these new emus or systems on a chip clones ruin the genesis reputation...model 1's are vinyl players, sega cd is cd player, genesis 2 is a warped old "rust" cassette you found in a puddle of water and played back on a old cassette deck on its deathbed with glitch speakers rats chewed on wires of.. model 3's were a way majesco could make money but at least there is a board inside instead of the atgames system on a chip and other companies newer genesises shits.. model 1 ftw https://youtu.be/F3rrjQtQe5A?t=7m thank you for liking the videos i posted but my point was model 1 playback in like 44.1 hz wav quality compared to a model 2 mp3 player from 1998 playing 128 k mp3's then steve jobs decides to launch the model 3's and "4's" as ipod players that play 64 k to 320 k which is way below 44.1 quality..imo..
"it is misreading" contact and discuss that with Horus Curcino then..
I know this isn't a discussion of aesthetics but I still think remodeling the Genesis model 1 to the model 2 design was an appropriate decision; I like both shells but the model 1 absolutely has that '1989' look - maybe it's the overall size of the console, giant '16-bit' lettering across the top or even the venting elements but I think the model 2 looked clean and even sharper with a model 2 CD. It needed that new slimmer and refined look against the blocky SNES.
As far as sound reputation, I'm completely tone-deaf as it is and not much of an audiophile. My brother has perfect-pitch so he always notices those sound deviations but I generally found the Genesis to have good sound. Maybe not as clean on the model 2 would be the best way to describe it, no doubt, but for someone like me it was never to point where it killed the track.
..ok but you dont even need to be an audiophile or pitch perfect (absolute pitch) or relative pitch or even a long time music listener or musician to hear the difference..it is night and day imo..esp with certain sound fx..but notice the snes vs gen comparisons or talks are generally snes v1 vs genesis model 2 http://media.gamerevolution.com/imag...s-nintendo.jpg http://5stars.website/wp-content/upl...sn-660x330.jpg https://drivemega.files.wordpress.co...2/snesmega.jpg https://greatrumbler.files.wordpress...is_vs_snes.jpg http://images.sodahead.com/polls/003...18_xlarge.jpeg http://x-bitgaming.com/wp-content/up...vs-genesis.jpg .. google pictures are full of them..yeah snes wins that..hell some emulators could win that..Quote:
Originally Posted by Lync
Hey, Dennab. I threw this together, because I figured you might enjoy it.
It's a comparison of the Flying Battery Act II music from Sonic & Knuckles played from a bunch of different Genesis consoles.
The order of appearance is:
VA6 model 1
model 3 VA1
fusion emulator
nomad
Model 2 VA2.3
VA7 (early model 2s sound the same)
Mega Amp modded VA2.3 model 2.
https://soundcloud.com/comradeoj/flying-battery-comparison
Here's the uncompressed version: https://mega.co.nz/#!Cp13DJwJ!zdzlDf...vNcE72pMPwxuv8
That VA7 and Mega Amp really is night and day :D
..hey cool dude i will check it out now..i predict a m1 va6 and m1 va3 might be the best factory ones although m1 va2 has an audio error but that might be a placebo in my mind..or m2 va2 with mega amp is 3rd best sounding..Quote:
Originally Posted by ComradeOj
https://youtu.be/n_E2lh1lgmk?t=2m12s
..ah yes as predicted..the m1va3 sounds sharpest/clearest but wow were those highs loud ha, the mega amp m2va sounds like the m1 va3, va6 sounded was balanced but muffled, as it has more filters yes? fusion software sounded great compared to other hardware id say it is 3rd to m1va3 and m2va2 mega amp..i was listening to the raw file version..nomad a bit worse than m1va6..of course the va7 and early model 2 are the worse overall quality wise..because of even more filters or maybe a different chip?
While I agree with the sentiment of the OP, I think the examples shown kinda suck. The genesis can (and did) do far better than most of those.
(I know it's pointless to show this to a Sega audience, but you never know when a SNES fanboy might happen to see the thread)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MQ_h7ECE6w
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XG1c2U4ld2Y
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otFzHptzHjw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQ5bk8Jxsd0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtX-VuiWVp0
More for posterity:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WroQX2j5w0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_TwdDCnZ4o
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqREc25x_yk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ochn3CbZSis
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b47Hq25OwAo
I could keep going, just posting different composers too.
And just because posterity is important, someone tells you genesis has bad audio you shove this in their face.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4sU-2e0T60
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRtVpz4qoBY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SbPYHy1vkk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W88gukeK3Qc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBuBaPTCGL4
Rep'd. Thanks for all of that. I hadn't heard all of them yet (and they're great)!Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamahl
That's actually a model 3 VA1, not a model 1 VA3. I think the model 1 VA3 sounds exactly the same as the model 1 VA6.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennab
Here's a pic of the model 3. It actually sounds really good. A lot of people wrongly think they sound terrible. Too bad it only outputs mono...
http://www.gametrog.com/GAMETROG/HOW...P1010169_1.jpg
And yes, the VA6 has some low-pass filtering. It makes it sound kind of muffled, but it really helps with the ear piercing highs.
The VA7 sound chip isn't bad, it's just the audio mixer that's terrible. VA7's sound just fine with a Mega Amp or CCAM.
..well a m1va3 definitely sounds cleaner/sharper than a m1va6..i have m1va2's, m1va3's, m1va6, and others..however for a model 3 it is right up there with fusion, which those 2 are cleaner than m2's however the mega amp makes a m1va7/m2 sound great..so imo..Quote:
Originally Posted by ComradeOj
1) m1va3
2) mega amp m2va2/m1va7 (has great video though)
3) fusion (damn impressive for software or an emu)
4) m3 va1 (however highs are too high)
5) m1va6 (too muffled, m1va3 sounds better)
6) nomad
7) m2va2
8) m1va7
..i want to get my hands on either a 1988 m1va0 which i heard has best audio or get a mega amp for my m1va7 which has great video..i think with audio cables out the front a m1va2 audio errors cant be heard and is like the m1va3 which is my fav..besides that did you agree with my assessment or my above list basically from your list?
I grew up with a model 1 VA6. I didn't know that until I was an adult with the internet.
I don't think it would have made any difference if the Model 2 didn't exist. I plugged my VA6 into a crappy Montgomery Ward TV set my parents deemed basement worthy.
I had friends who had model 1s and model 2s. Not one of us ever noticed a difference and we all had crappy TVs. Plus add in the voices of a bunch of kids huddled around a TV, some pizza, and the latest Nirvana CD on the boom box. The Model 2 provided the same experience. Unfortunately that's lost now. :(
I too grew up with a Model 2 genesis. It wasn't even until earlier this year when I finally started modding and working on circuit boards that I even discovered the vast hardware differences within the revisions of the Genesis.
I also feel that while the hardware was superior in the earlier revisions of the Model 1, as others have said it was also undeniably...dated looking, especially compared to a genesis 2 hooked up with a sega cd. In contrast the model 2 looked streamlined, even futuristic against the SNES and the Model 1 alike. They just appeared to be so cumbersome and bulky.
As a kid, the tv was crap, the genesis was hooked up via RF (I know, blasphemous), but that was all I ever knew. That console was and still is the pride of my collection. Sure, once I can afford to I'll get a Non TMSS Model 1 High Definition Graphics...but it will never replace my original Model 2.
I like them both equally. I do agree that the Model 2 is more 'modern' looking compared to the Model 1 and I do like the look of it but I grew up with the Model 1. Me and almost everyone I grew up with back in the '90s had the Model 1 so to me the Model 1 just has a much more nostalgic feel to it every time I see it. I do like that the Model 2 fits better in type spots from it being more compact. When a friend of mine gave me his Model 2 in the early 2000s, I still had an RF only CRT TV but could still easily tell the sound was worse than the Model 1. It basically felt like to me what it really is, a cost reduced revision.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pixelepsy
I like that the Model 1 has it's own volume control which is very useful and convenient when I game during late hours or when I simply want to use my Sennheiser studio headphones which the Genesis 1 sounds fantastic on.
If you plan on getting a Model 1, you don't really need a Non TMSS revision. I actually recommend just simply getting any Model 1 between the Non-TMSS and VA7 revisions. VA6.X Model 1s have better capacitors that have stood the test of time much better and they sound just as good if not better than Non TMSS revisions which tend to have more background audio interference on the headphone audio output as well as more jailbars and rainbow banding on the video signal, at least from my experience with one. But if you don't mind recapping it and really don't want the TMSS screen appearing, go for it. IMO they're usually overpriced though.
I don't know what we're talking about in here... It feels like a debate from pseudo developers who have too much time to boast their technical knowledge, whatever the source (I'm assuming written articles by professionals), but I saw some videos with Genesis music, so I shall post one that I enjoy - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6f-tSK6RTw
From a consumer point of view, because I'm being honest about my stance, I appreciate the "Shooting" theme much better on the Genesis. It's warmer and more vibrating, but hey, this is just from someone who isn't professional about music.
..hey dude i respect your opinion but the focus was the sounds themselves not the fact these are demo like videos of people just fiddling with the vintage machines..although i liked the piano 3 video i posted that sounded like an ending to a 1991 genesis rpg or something..of course genesis music like sor sounded better than those i never said otherwise..but check that other video i can definitely hear that funky type of music in a toejam and earl game..Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamahl
..of course but as you see new composers now a days could still use these genesis-like sounding old machines to convert there tracks from wav to vgm and be put in a new game..so you agree the model 2 playedback sound is worse than model 1? (point of thread) you guys can feel free to talk about the aesthetics of the 2 models or various tech but the sound was the point of the thread along with the old machines new composers got a hold of that has the potential of those sounds to be put in new homebrews..Quote:
The genesis can (and did) do far better than most of those.
"I had friends who had model 1s and model 2s. Not one of us ever noticed a difference and we all had crappy TVs. Plus add in the voices of a bunch of kids huddled around a TV, some pizza, and the latest Nirvana CD on the boom box. The Model 2 provided the same experience."
..while i see where your coming from..i must say well in that case a snes sounds as good as a model 2 and gameboy sounds as god as a neo geo in that type of environment..also can you guys see my signature?..if not i will make it my avatar..i guess most people have signature view turned off?
I think ChillyWilly years ago put it best. While we can definitely hear the difference between models over headphones and good sound systems, going through crappy 80's and 90's TV speakers the difference becomes moot. Street Fighter 2, bad emulators, and bad compositions like the one below did far more damage to the system's sound reputation than the Model 2 ever did.
I have to agree the negative perception people have of the sound chip has more to do with bad compositions, mainly from western games (though some were great I don't think I have to bring up any Jesper Kyd soundtracks by this point).
For example I don't think there are many people out there, even those who slag on the Genesis, that would argue the main entries of the Sonic the Hedgehog series have bad music, so it has to be more about the sound design itself and less about the hardware.
..idk..imo the model 2 did give the genesis a bad rep..just look at post 6 or hear a game on a new tv between a model 1 and model 2 not an 80s tv but new one, even sonic rings sound fx are distorted and muffled..idk i can tell..
I actually wasn't aware of that information about the VA6, thanks for that info Roadkill. I don't mind replacing the capacitors too much, and the TMSS in truth doesn't bother me at all because growing up that's all I ever knew. I'm used to it, and even now my Model 2 is still my "main" genesis until I get a good model 1 (though I may still use the model 2 anyways alot of the time)
I haven't been here long enough to have heard ChillyWilly originally state that, but I agree that at the time due to the crappy tvs and their limited inputs (mine only had RF), at the time I wouldn't have known a difference even if I had both systems. None of my friends had a genesis either, let alone one of a different model, (they had SNES), so that comparison couldn't be made either. This definitely is a difference that has only become worthwhile in the last decade or so with the upgraded connections available on tvs, good quality scalers, etc.
I fail to see how the model 2 would have given the genesis as a whole a bad rep. As mentioned before the sound differences weren't noticeable until better connections and simultaneously anyone geeky / insane enough to still be hardcore about the old systems would have done due research and discovered why they were different. For instance, I don't view the SNES as inferior because of the SNES junior, which is utter crap un-modded. Composite only, etc and the NES mini is even worse, RF only.
..i disagree..even in 1989 and with not that much audio knowledge i was still able to put a 3.5 y cable in the front of my genesis and run it in my stereo or at least put headphones in..its not like every 90s tv had horrible audio if you used rca/composite in your tv and you had both a model 1 and model 2 even in 1994 games like sportstalk football you would notice a difference out your tv speakers..the issue is recently in a decade tvs have better audio so it was reported more on internet..its actually an ancient issue people even on sega channel forum discussed...esp how sound fx sounded worse out of model 2..
Wow - that's a great series of comparisons, definitely something I would have never have noticed sitting in front of a television set; Model 1 VA6 and Model 2 VA2 with Mega Amp are very clean.Quote:
Originally Posted by ComradeOj
Perhaps I've asked this question before but how much or in what way (if any) is the Genesis' audio improved by running sound through the stereo-output on a Sega CD model 1 or 2?
Here you go:
http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthr...l=1#post692067
http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthr...l=1#post339950
The Model 2 didn't give the Genesis a bad reputation for sound, Street Fighter 2 and bad compositions did. In the grand scheme of things the difference between a Model 1 and Model 2 isn't that huge. People try to say it's like this:
Model 1 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Model 2
When in reality it's this:
CCAM/MegaAmp >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Model 1>Model 2
This was recorded off a Model 2, does it really sound that bad?:
The source is also from an old cassette tape AFAIK.Quote:
Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118
I have no doubt that some those discussions happened back then, but to be realistic most of the tvs did have terrible audio and most people didn't have both a model 1 and 2.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennab
Tons of people didn't even have internet access in the early 90's, either. Your experience may be accurate for the majority within the last decade, but I seriously doubt it is accurate for how the majority of people actually viewed the model 2 in the early 90's, which was what I was mostly talking about in the first place.
True. Heh, when I first listened Chuck Rock and Art of Fighting I was so amazed how well sounded! (Model 1 with earphones) That was a huge step from Game Boy and CPC (that were my previously game platform were I enjoyed the music always using earphones with Game Boy, stereo rocks!) :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Pixelepsy
A few months ago, I noticed that some of the really neat effects Jesper Kyd used in the Red Zone soundtrack sounded horrible and distorted on my friend's model 2. Bad enough to completely ruin a few tracks. That being said, I do think that the GEMS and EA sound drivers played much bigger parts in giving Genesis audio a bad name than the model 2's rather poor audio circuitry.
When I was younger most of my group of friends had megadrive one's, but there was this one kid who had the model 2, and it was much worse than everyone elses. So bad that people would bring their model 1's to sleepovers at his house. From what I remember the picture was fuzzy compared to everyone else's and made all the music sound like a distorted mess. I used to think it was slightly broken back then, but I guess it could have just been a really bad model. IIRC he got it shortly after the version 2 came out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennab
I don't think the average customer would hear a difference back then, maybe people who had a model 1 previously. Most people were still using RF, in NA anyway.
Great thread
I think it might have been even more noticeable. We were kids using RF leads, mostly on small portable TV's in our bedrooms and occasionally a big TV downstairs. My experience with the model 2 only extended to this one kid who had one, but the difference was night and day.Quote:
Originally Posted by zetastrike
If you compare the voice of the "Sega" at the beginning of sonic in this video, his sounded like the 3rd one only much much worse. All that would come out of the speaker would be the nasty distorted tones, to the point it sounded like a robot. I dunno the technical ins-and-outs of it, but I guess a decent speaker can get something out of the crappy signal, but a tinny little TV speaker didn't stand a chance.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-KsaGBUVz4
I'm sorry but I find your story very hard to believe. Even through the video you provided it's hard to tell the difference right away. Going through your typical TV speakers I doubt you could tell a difference. So either your friends model 2 was severely screwed up, or you're telling stories from your rear end.
A model 2 does sound worse, no ones debating that. But it's not the kind of difference your describing. It's like the difference between a new cassette tape and a mildly used cassette tape while you're trying to say it's like the difference between a CD and cylinder record.
It's not big enough to give the Genesis a bad reputation for audio. That responsibility lies solely on bad compositions and games with bad sound drivers.
You don't believe the systems known for having bad audio, did indeed have bad audio?
I don't really know how to reply to that. The differences in the video I posted are pretty clear to me.
I can confirm this fact. I had a VA6 which I played to death on every TV accessible to me. I even recorded the music to cassette tapes, my PC and to VHS (game endings and intros). I was very familiar with how the system sounded. My best friend bought a VA7 and I did notice the difference. A year later my brother got his model 2 and it sounded far worse than even the VA7. Worse than in above YT video. Much worse. It seemed to me that the music was almost completely drowned out by the noise floor and the heavy distortion.
These experiences led me to start my own little research in 2007 to find the perfect hardware to record MD music from. A few months later I joined Tiido who at that time was looking for recordings from different hardware revisions for his CCAM project.
In 2008 I gave my brother's MD2 to Tiido to have it CCAM'd. I really regret not having recorded it for posterity.
No, I'm saying I don't believe the story that it was so bad you could tell the difference over shitty 90's TV speakers and had felt the need to bring Model 1 systems. It reeks of hyperbole/stories from the ass.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Robotnik
There is a difference between the Model 1 and Model 2. But going through RF with shitty TV Speakers, as most people did back when these systems were new, most people won't be able to tell a difference.
Hey - you were quoting me but I never said those things... Just wanted to clear my good name. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennab