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Mario Kart is the type of racing game that Iron Maiden would play on a daily basis.
Its because the PS1 doesn't need defending. Its ranked high in the console league.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gogogadget
Amazing they got dynamic shadows under the car, although primitive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Folco
I don't see how any Sega fan can have issue with someone defending a console that someone else believes is underrated.
It was a massive success and all, but I think a lot of people unfairly slag it off nowadays. Often it's in the context of writing off that whole generation, which is all kinds of wrong IMO. Once in a while, though, I do find that some will say N64 had superior 3D and Saturn had superior 2D, and therefore the Playstation is worthless or something.Quote:
Originally Posted by azonicrider
I have to disagree with that. Daytona CCE feels slower than the original Daytona USA on the Saturn. The cloud animations on the rear window of your car have been toned down to white blobs with no definition. The power-slides that are in the arcade game have been crippled, but are pretty well done in the original Daytona USA on the Saturn. The wall kiss that is in the arcade game and original game on the Saturn, on the short track, work pretty much the same, while CCE allows you to maintain full speed on that final corner without hitting that wall. The bobble of the car has been toned down on CCE, to the point that it's almost non-existent.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barone
CCE has more to offer and looks prettier than the original Daytona USA on the Saturn, but I enjoy playing the original more, because of what it does to emulate of the arcade game along with the better music sound track.
Pretty strange.Quote:
Originally Posted by j_factor
I see it as, when a console is controversial(like the N64), theres gonna be die-hard defenders for it. Its just how it works.
Many posts I read around The Web years ago talked about PAL Saturn games doing things like playing in black and white, the screen rolling because of the Hz difference, or the game not starting at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Da_Shocker
I wonder how many times I'll have to repeat that I'm not talking about CCE but CE version of the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by gamevet
But some things you said just don't make sense IMO.
The speed sensation being one of them and the reference to the bobble of the car being another.
I can only relate to the two editions that were released in North America. The Japanese CE version is CCE, with the original soundtrack optional, drift weight options and night/day options.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barone
The sensation of speed is very much there. A lap around the short track can be completed in the low 17s in the arcade game, the low 18's in the original Daytona and the high 18s/low 19s in CE. It's like they slowed the game (CE) down ever so slightly to give the Saturn more time to draw the walls and objects in the distance.
The bobble I'm talking about, is how the car rock front to back in the arcade and original Saturn version, while it's barely there in CE. There's also changes in the way the cars react when you rub paint, which CE has gimped.
Yeah, the original Daytoa USA on the Saturn could have looked better than it did, but I feel that the development team made sacrifices with the graphics to get all of the other things closer to the arcade games. So, yeah, I'm one of those crazy guys that prefers the original Daytona more, ugly warts and all.
That would be a PAL console, not PAL games. PAL games on an NTSC system will play at the "wrong" speed; a 60 Hz system won't output 50 Hz.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Coop
Uh, you DO understand the ridiculousness of saying this in a thread that exists exclusively because a Sony/Sega fan wants to criticize the N64 and its fans, yes? If Barone "just seemed to enjoy his games" this thread wouldn't exist. All systems have fans, and fans often like to talk positively about their system and negatively about others.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gogogadget
Even beyond that, though, "PS1 fans just seem to enjoy their games" is a pretty hilarious thing to say. Were you actually around between '96-'01? In America at least, the arguments between N64 and PS1 fans were CONSTANT! PS1 fans spent plenty of time trying to yell at N64 fans about how much better their system was. Of course this was true in everyday conversations, but also, anyone who was on the internet talking or reading about games would remember this for sure.
What about that earned this stupid response? When investigating a question, first you ask the question, and then examine the evidence. You don't only report the evidence that supports the side you prefer, you cover all the evidence and look at the results.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barone
No, it's entirely unrelated to anything I've ever said, as I proved in the post you're replying to. I would not say obvious false statements like that.Quote:
It's *clearly* related to it, but, of course, I write the statements in a way that they can congregate a wider range of lunatic claims, not only yours.
Having both a championship and mission system, as Wipeout 3 has, would have been great, but I like that they mixed things up and came up with new ideas. Comparing Wipeout 64 to the first two games, and not 3, I think Wipeout 64's system is just as good or better; I REALLY like being able to save after each race, the first two games are excessively difficult because you need to do the entire circuit perfectly all in one run, instead of being able to do each race separately and save after each one. I like games to have good save systems, sure I can spend the time to memorize a whole circuit/game, but having to redo stuff I've beaten ten times just because the level/track after that is hard and I can't save before it is annoying.Quote:
Lol. The 64 version doesn't have a proper championship mode and it sucks to not have one, it's clearly half-assed in such aspect. I'm amazed with your ability to twist the facts.
There's also a major issue with the weapons system. ;)
So you've heard of and know all about every single game ever made for every system ever, then? Somehow I doubt it.Quote:
Ignorance is a bliss, isn't it?
I have Hydro Thunder for N64, PS1, Dreamcast, and Gamecube (the GC version being the DC port in MAT3), and the PS1 version is by far the worst, the graphics are so ugly looking! The Dreamcast version is the best of those of course (MAT3 has bad load times and some framerate and control issues), but between PS1 and N64, I'd rather have the much better-looking picture of the N64 than the maybe slightly faster play of the PS1.Quote:
With no other cars on screen, yes, GT2 scrolls noticeably faster. But with traffic I don't see that much of a difference, since GT2's frame rate seems to suffer a bit more than WDC's (especially in the more crowded tracks).
See this video, notice how it feels faster once the player is in the lead:
But the not so impressive scrolling speed in WDC is probably due to the N64's fillrate limit.
WDC is phenomenal in the graphics department but its few instances of slowdown usually occur when you have skid smoke for more than one car, so it's probably the fillrate limit keeping it from being even more awesome.
The fillrate limit/small texture cache/texture replacement stalls trio is probably what explains several things about some other N64 games.
N64's Hydro Thunder scrolling slower than the PS1, DC, PC and Arcade versions is also a sign of that. The water texture being converted into solid color during high jumps is another indication that the fillrate was a problem for that game.
Anyway, we know that the N64 usually doesn't do quite as high a poly count as the PS1, thanks to =the effects developers were mostly required to use that take up a huge amount of hardware power (filtering, z-buffering, etc etc) -- remember that one of the big deal about WDC is that thanks to Boss Games' custom microcode the game actually has polygon counts as high or higher than any on the PS1, a rare thing for the N64.
Of course though, with PS1-style 3d -- no perspective correction at all, no filtering or z-buffering, etc -- N64 games would have several times the poly counts of PS1 games. I'd MUCH rather have the effects to make the picture quality better, than just more polygons.
Interesting analysis here.Quote:
Also, have a look:
N64
http://i.imgur.com/gVfqepE.png
PS1
http://i.imgur.com/FbUvzJ0.png
Breaking down GT2 vs WDC:
- GT2 has smoother edges on the car shadow, using a bit of transparency in its contour. WDC's car shadow is hard-edged like GT1 was but it has some dynamic shadow casting going on.
- GT2's skid smoke uses additive blending, something the N64 can't do but WDC's is probably the best on the system.
- WDC's multitexture effect on the car painting is superior to GT2. In WDC it has a bit of movement related to the angle your car is in relation to the track.
- WDC's has very good skid mark effect (weight/pressure-dependent for each wheel), on par with the best of that gen. GT2 has NO skid mark effect.
- WDC has noticeably longer draw distance.
- WDC's trackside buildings and objects are far better polygon-wise and more solid too. Night tracks have some hideous spotlights in GT2.
- WDC has a taste of weather effects, no full-fledged snow effect, for an example, but some fog effects here and there. GT2 has NO weather effects.
- Ambient lighting is better in WDC, with far more shadows for the trackside objects and lens flare.
- WDC has 8 cars on the track against 6 in GT2.
- AI is arguably better on GT2, seems to be a bit more aggressive and better on overtaking overall.
- GT2 has a more complex traction/acceleration model; noticeable during angled cornering.
- GT2 has lots of car setup options and stuff like a turbo pressure meter in its HUD being affected by the level of the components you have in the car, how much acceleration you're using in that moment and the torque curve of the car's engine.
- GT2 has better audio, with the engine noise being fairly realistic to each car model.
Some details that other 5th gen console games have over WDC/GT2:
- Top Gear Overdrive has GT2-like car shadows, transparent car windows, superb speed sensation, particle effects for collision, wider tracks, night races with proper headlamp effect, spotlight effects; superior lighting, weather and painting reflection effects.
- Ridge Racer 64 has transparent car shadows (something that Ridge Racer Type-4 lacks), top-tier skid marks effect (on par with WDC's), more cars on the track, superb speed sensation, blurring effects and superior in-tunnel lighting effects.
- NFSIII has transparent car shadows, simple effect for collision, weather effects, wider tracks, top-tier skid marks effect (on par with WDC's), additive blending effects in some track segments as in the "Aquatica" track; superior skid smoke (especially when compared to GT2's), painting reflection and in-tunnel effects.
- NFSVI has transparent car shadows and windows, visual damage on cars, simple effect for collision, weather effects, top-tier skid marks effect (on par with WDC's), wider tracks, night races with proper headlamp effect, superior lens flare, skid smoke (especially when compared to GT2's) and in-tunnel effects.
Yeah, BAR was originally going to be a NFS game, so it using a NFS engine makes sense. As for between NFSHS and BAR though, that's hard, both of those games are amazing. I like the PC version of NFSHS the best (it's my favorite NFS game!), but between the not-quite-as-good-as-PC PS1 version of NFSHS, and BAR for the N64, a game I like but don't love as much as some... I don't know. Maybe BAR? They're both good, though.Quote:
About Beetle Adventure Racing, it uses a tweak NFSII engine AFAIK; it has some really wider-than-normal tracks. It was released at the same month that NFSIV was released on the PS1.
Oh right, that's one of the things that got VGChartz banned from neogaf -- changing numbers to the correct ones once sources came out showing actual numbers, instead of VGChartz's guesses. I would only trust numbers on that site if they're sourced from somewhere more credible, really; otherwise they're just educated guesses.Quote:
Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118
Now, considering how annoying the NPD is about not releasing numbers there is a place for a site like VGChartz. I just wish there wasn't, and we had something like Japan has, where all the numbers are actually released... the NPD's "we won't tell you the numbers" thing is quite frustrating.
Sure.Quote:
They probably did but the source has probably been lost like many other things over the years. This isn't too hard to figure out though. Japan's numbers have been known for years and are posted on Sega's site. They put it at 550k if I remember correctly. We know the 3 free games deal sold a lot as well. Going on the low end of the spectrum that's another 500k. So we're at 1 million right there and that's not including Europe or non bundle sales in the US. It's pretty clear it sold 1 million copies.
Quote:
I'm going to give you one chance to seriously consider if you want to go down this road. Think carefully.
On the contrary I don't. I love Mario Kart and which should be obvious from the enthusiasm I've shown here for it's Wii U incarnation. I'm just saying that Sega Rally and Mario Kart 64 aren't really comparable. If I want to play a Rally Racer, I'm not going to turn to my N64. At the same time if I want to play a good kart racer I'm not going to turn to my Saturn.
You make it sound like comparing racing games to other racing games is some super-weird thing or something, it's quite odd... overall I think that the N64 has the better racing library. Where did I say the N64 has the best game in every racing subgenre? I didn't. I think you're assuming things again. Overall means all kinds of racing games. Mario Kart Wii and San Francisco Rush (the first N64 game) are quite different, but they are more like eachother than they are to games in other genres.Quote:
Again, do you really want to open this door? The argument wasn't that those kart racers weren't racing games. The argument was that they're a different kind of racing game that don't compare well to other kinds of racers. I wouldn't compare Sega Rally to Mario Kart 64 just as I wouldn't compare Daytona USA to Gran Turismo. They're different kinds of racers altogether.
So sure, the Saturn's one top rally racer is better than the N64's rally racing games; though the N64 does have some pretty good rally games (Top Gear Rally being the best one, Rally Challenge 2000 second), they don't quite match Sega Rally. But comparing the whole racing genre libraries, the N64 is clearly ahead.
My thinking was, "Sega Rally and Daytona are great" is not a counter to "I think the N64 has a better overall library" unless you ignore those other kinds of racing games, or unless you really love Sega Rally and Daytona so much that it doesn't matter what's in other libraries, you'll like those games more anyway. The latter is okay, that's just having a preference. But the former, ignoring some kinds of games, isn't.Quote:
No one was doing this. You just have poor reading comprehension.
Here's one of the things you said previously:
I don't know which system would have the better library if you ignored all jetski, futuristic, kart, etc. racing games would be, it well might not be the N64, but that doesn't matter when comparing whole genres, all kinds of racing games count.Quote:
Here's a hint of advice, if you're gonna move the goal posts it would be best not to do it within a few pages of each other. I wasn't talking about MK64, WaveRace64, F-Zero X, Star Wars Racer, etc. I was talking about the ones you were parading out at the time like Beetle Adventure Racing, World Driver Championship, Top Gear Rally, etc. Which guess what, none of those came close to selling what Sega Rally and Daytona USA sold on the Saturn.
I know there are some people who strongly prefer car racing games, but as I said, I'm very much not one of them.
Or this one:
I might as well ask you, how well did those Saturn games "comparable" to Gran Turismo sell, if there are any Saturn games you'd compare to GT? Or how about Wave Race 64? Or 1080, or Rush 2049, Ep. 1 Racer, or F-Zero X? Different platforms have different strengths. But when comparing libraries, I compare the whole library.Quote:
And again those top selling N64 games are Kart racers, wave race, and a Star Wars game released right when Episode 1 came out. How well did the N64 racers that are actually comparable to the likes of Sega Rally, Daytona USA, Gran Turismo, etc. sell?
Back to the current post.
Remembering the correct number, 9.26 million is Sega of Japan's shipment number, it was in that Neogaf thread I linked not too long ago (made a thread for it). Remember, 9.26 million Saturn, 9.13 million Dreamcast, 30.75 million Genesis (not including TecToy, Majesco, maybe the Nomad, etc.).Quote:
I did the math at 9.5 Million, which seems to be the commonly accepted number.
You might do better if you read my words, instead of seeming to try to read things into them that I never said... but regardless, considering the kinds of things you have said in this thread, you probably shouldn't be saying this. You can't tell that you are every bit as much of a biased fan of the games/systems you love? And I'm not calling people "delusional" over matters of opinion, either; anyone throwing out insults like that over opinion has surrendered any moral high ground, that's for sure.Quote:
Maybe if you didn't fanboy out and say ridiculous shit all the time we would notice your more level headed posts.
Not nearly as different as you say. Something like Ep. 1 Racer has definite similarities to a game like Sega Rally.Quote:
That's fine and dandy. They're still different kinds of racers.
So basically you don't go to sites other than Sega-16 or similar sites much, that's what you're saying. Of course those games aren't mentioned often here, the N64 in general isn't mentioned too often here. If you look at the internet in general, though, you'll find those games mentioned reasonably frequently. BAR is one of the most frequently praised N64 games and has been for a long time, for example. Even Mark of CGR, who of course has always disliked the N64, said good things about it in his recent review. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFUL_4iWgsMQuote:
Daytona USA still get's mentioned to this day as an amazing racer. The most common comment I've seen is "Yeah the Saturn port wasn't pretty, but it still played great." Meanwhile Beetle Adventure Racing, Top Gear Rally, World Driver Championship, etc. I only ever see mentioned in N64 threads concerning you.
And? I'm not the only person who loves Gauntlet Legends either, but that doesn't change its general reception -- reviews, etc.Quote:
Funny thing, we actually had a few threads on this over at SSUK where quite a few people agreed that with the right controller the game actually becomes pretty good.
That's something so incredibly nebulous that it can mean almost nothing, or almost anything. "Public perception" is something that is hard to quantify. Worse, it can change over time as well! In comparison, reviews and sales don't change. But what people in general think of a game? That's something that will change. A game can be liked at first, then not as much, then be liked more later on, for example. That makes it hard to quantify.Quote:
There's public perception.
Anyway, things like reviews and scores influence public perception, too.
You're being silly, I'm sure you know that one example does not disprove a general trend. :)Quote:
GTA V says hi.
Your whole case here doesn't make any sense. Daytona and Sega Rally were Sega's two big focus racing games on the Saturn, followed by Sega Touring Car, remakes of Daytona, and Sonic R later on. On the N64, it was Mario Kart 64, DKR, 1080, and F-Zero (though that last one didn't sell quite as well as the others), and also Excitebike 64. Of course the first-party games, with a big push from the platform maker, were more successful than most third-party games.Quote:
Once again apple's to oranges. Let's compare similar kinds of racers to similar kinds of racers. MK64, DKR, SWR, etc. all sold well because they're either party racers or licensed off a very popular IP. I wasn't comparing Sega Rally's sales to those. I flat out admitted in the original post that those outsold Sega Rally. What more do you want?
What I was pointing out though is that all those other racers you try to claim are better than Sega Rally (BAR, WDC, TGR, etc.) didn't even get close to Sega Rally in sales or popularity. Which considering how much better the N64 sold than the Saturn is absolutely hilarious. It's even more hilarious when you parade those games out as proof of N64 Superiority in racers.
Second, "superiority" isn't based on sales. Just selling better doesn't make something better -- I do not like the PS1 more than the N64 or Saturn just because it sold better, for a fairly obvious example of that. Sales say something, but not automatic superiority. Neither sales nor review scores are perfect, but you need to look at both. Of course personal opinion won't always line up with either, but that's fine, everyone has different tastes.
Third, the N64 surely had more racing games in the hundreds of thousands of sales than the Saturn. With more sales, and more racing games, I'm sure that even without the top two games -- and you CANNOT exclude them just because you want to -- the N64 surely sold a lot more racing games than the Saturn. I'm also sure sales of third-party Saturn racing games would be only a fraction of those on that list of N64 games there. Again, for sales, being a first-party title is a huge help... and for Sega Rally and Daytona, releasing before the Saturn's effective death in '97 of course helps as well, a Sonic R in 1995 would have sold a lot better than it did in 1997 I'm sure, regardless of quality. I'm sure Sega Rally's high quality helped its sales too though, but that same game several years later would have sold much less.
So, by comparing major first-party Saturn games that got some of Sega's biggest pushes of any games that generation to third-party N64 games that didn't get as much attention, of course you can make a list look good for the Saturn by removing all of the N64's top-selling titles from consideration. It's just that that gets you a list that says little.
If you can't remember that I have repeatedly said, including in this thread, that San Francisco Rush The Rock: Alcatraz Edition (Arcade version) is my favorite arcade racing game of all time and San Francisco Rush 2049 (N64 version) is my favorite game ever made in which you drive a vehicle, maybe you should have looked that up before saying that. The Rush series is one of the best ever in the genre, on my list, right up there with stuff like F-Zero and Wipeout, and ahead of Micro Machines, Extreme-G, NFS, and whatever else would be on my list.Quote:
Did you really just mention any Rush game and "Best Game Ever" in the same sentence?
I put them on just as high of a tier as either of those games, and I like Daytona USA quite a bit (it'd also be in my top 5 arcade racing games ever for sure!). Daytona on Saturn is great as well.Quote:
But you see, I don't hate the Rush series. I actually do enjoy them and would put them higher up in my N64 racer list. I just don't think they're in the same Tier as say Sega Rally or Daytona USA.
Sure, okay... would it be better to compare it to Sega Touring Car or Sonic R or something, then? For Saturn games those would be later releases. And as far as graphics go, both draw a lot of controversy, something not really the case for Rush 2049 (the main complaint for Rush 2049 probably would be that the DC version looks better, but of course it does).Quote:
Yet you just tried to compare a 1995 Saturn game to a 2000 N64 game.
Or perhaps Daytona CE? It's got some improvements over previous versions, sure, but it's not all better. I'm one of those who probably likes the first Saturn version better than CE, though I have played the first version more so I can't say that for sure. (Never played CCE.) As I've said before here, I've never understood why people liked PS1 Ridge Racer more than Saturn Daytona, Saturn Daytona is by far the better game!
Not going to jump into this whole argument, but...
To get the correct number, you would have to add to that 9.26 million the number of Saturns produced by Tec Toy, Samsung, Victor, and Hitachi. I don't have numbers for any of them, but I think 240,000 for all four combined is a bit of a low-ball if anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by A Black Falcon
They liked Ridge Racer more, because it looked better. It's the same with the ultra-crappy Battle Arena Toshinden being viewed as a better game (system seller) than Virtua Fighter.Quote:
Originally Posted by A Black Falcon
Sega Rally... I fell in love with its graphics BITD, when mags first showed screens of the Saturn port. Didnt get to play it until about 2002, and still loved the look. I dont know if its the artwork, bright colors, clean graphics or whatever, to me Sega Rallys graphics dont age.
ABF, any reason in particular why you prefer the N64 version of Rush 2049 over the DC version?. Your passion for the game has gotten me to try the game deeper. Not my cup of tea, but good stuff. Been on a N64 mood of late with these threads, hehe.
He compared it to Crusin USA, which isn't what I'd call high-praise.Quote:
Originally Posted by A Black Falcon