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Black and White is a result of some TV in the UK (even when using Scart) at the time not supporting the two different NTSC signals and was a issue for any import console, but since the Saturn supported RGB scart it wasn't an issue at all and was far more of any issue for system like the N64 which didn't . And sure some Pal games had issues when being played on Import systems, but those were the ones that were Pal optmised which wasn't that many really.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Coop
Let me add something since it's a matter that interest me (I have no grudge against you, of course).Quote:
Originally Posted by j_factor
In the field of determine how many consoles were "sold" you should always aim for the "reliable number" and not the "correct number" because under the excuse to get the "correct number" often it was taken unreliable figures for good.
The result of adding "fuzzy" figures to a reliable figure like could be the manufacturer total shipment (I've already explained in another thread why shipment data is superior to sell-through estimates, especially for old consoles) is a "made up" number.
For the same reason rounding/truncating a reliable figure corrupt its reliability (there is an unacceptable loss of information).
If you feel a distinction is needed to put in context the reliable figure then you just write it, for example "this is XXX console LTD as DATE provided by the manufacturer YYY".
Sorry to sound pedantic but the confusion arisen around old console total sales is caused in large part by clueless people and the lack of sound method.
For a more correct explaination, PAL uses a different system of color(colour) than the US. You need a color converter or a PAL compatible TV in order to play these games properly in america with a PAL saturn console.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Coop
But what we have is an incomplete number. Even if the number comes from Sega and is an accurate number for something, without more data we don't actually have a reliable number. At best you can say that we have this number from Sega, and so the total is above that by an unknown amount. This unknown amount isn't going to be a huge number of systems, but neither was a huge number of systems claimed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Folco
Or some people have a life-long disinterest in stock car racing. Not my cup of tea personally.Quote:
Originally Posted by gamevet
Daytona USA isn't really stock car racing. Yeah it has the look of a stock car, but it handles and plays nothing like it:Quote:
Originally Posted by azonicrider
There's a reason that 20 years later the machines are still being kept in great condition and raking cash for Arcades across the world. You can't walk into a single Dave and Busters in the country without finding an 8 player Daytona USA set up.
Meanwhile a beat up Cruis'n USA machine may be found collecting dust in the corner of a random Pizza Hut every now and then. And I don't think I've seen a real Ridge Racer machine in years.
But I defend Nintendo, Nintendo! Of course this is justification for everything they have said, right? Never mind that I like Sega almost as much.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gentlegamer
Good point. Really, saying something that questionable shows a pretty clear agenda.Quote:
Originally Posted by gamevet
You think it's only graphics, really? I'd think gameplay would matter too, and Daytona plays better... and looks fine, I think people overstate how bad its graphics are. I know though, I'm probably biased against Ridge Racer.Quote:
Originally Posted by gamevet
Hmm, you think? I admit I had forgotten about those other models, and I don't remember if anyone mentioned them in those other threads either, but... the Hi-Saturn and V-Saturn, I can't imagine them selling much, much like the JVC X'Eye / WonderMega for the Genesis, which sold only in the tens of thousands. As for Samsung in Korea and TecToy in Brazil, though, I have no idea, do we have any clue how those systems did there? We recently got accurate SCD and 32X numbers from Brazil thanks to Sega-16 (what was it, 50k SCDs and 2k 32Xes?), but I don't know about the Saturn...Quote:
Originally Posted by j_factor
Yeah, I can see both sides here. I think the best answer might be to say what the number we know is, but if there ARE plausible estimates for missing regions or platforms to also mention a second number which includes those estimates. I do like the idea of trying to have a complete number, but being clear about what part of that is based on fact is a good idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by Folco
I've gone over the differences between versions before in detail, but as for why I play the N64 version more, I can think of several reasons.Quote:
Originally Posted by saturndual32
- Nostalgia - I got the N64 version in January 2001, while I didn't get the DC version until after getting that console in Aug. 2007 (and the Gamecube MAT3 version in between). I'd played the N64 version a lot before getting the others, it's the one I have the most memories with. Rush 2049 is the only game I am sure I have had for that long and have played at least some every single year since I bought it, and it's my most played TV console game. There are handheld and PC games I've played for more hours for sure, but not TV console games, and there aren't any other games I have had as long and played at least some every single year. Maybe I've played Guild Wars (PC) at least some every year since '05, but that'd be the only close contender in how often I go back to a game.
- Stats / Save File - The game keeps track of total stunt points, time played on each track (not counting resets, though, which surely removes scores of hours), best times for each track, etc etc, and my stats are all in my N64 save file, which I still have from when I first created it. The GC and DC save files don't have anywhere remotely near as much time, times, points, etc. on them. Of course not having to unlock everything again is also a big plus, it takes a while to unlock some things in this game! Getting a million stunt points in those versions to unlock the Obstacle Course would be time-consuming, for example. Why not just play it on N64, where my stats are all there? I like being able to see how I compare to my old times, etc.
- Car painting - The one feature the N64 version has over the DC (and MAT3 because it's a DC port) version is that on the N64 you can directly choose the three colors you want your car to be painted in. In the DC version, however, all you can do is just choose one of eight preset color sets. I like my car's colors on N64, and can't make a car that looks like that on the other version. I like my florescent green and purple car on the N64, but on DC/MAT3 the only green option is a somewhat bland teal and white one or a decent but not as great one in two shades of green. Bah.
- Controller - I like the DC controller quite a bit, but the N64 controller is one of my favorites ever.
- Unless the N64 game has some wheel support I don't know about, the DC version has analog acceleration and braking while the N64 version, as per its controller, does not.
As for version differences, I've looked into this in some detail. Here are the differences I know of, between the Dreamcast and N64 versions of the game.
First, feature differences.
- Car painting - This is the one thing the N64 objectively wins. As I said above, you can choose the three colors your car will be painted in on the N64, out of a selection of several dozen colors, selecting a different color (if you wish) for each of the three zones on the car. You can't fully paint or sticker the car as you can in Top Gear Rally or some newer racing games, but it is a nice option. On the DC all you can do is choose between eight presets, which probably aren't quite what you want. I don't know why this is, but it's a bit annoying, if minor.
- Multiplayer - On Dreamcast, Race (Single Race only), Stunt, and Battle modes are all playable with up to four players. On N64 however, while Stunt and Battle modes are playable with up to 4 players, Race mode is for only 2 players max, probably because of framerate issues I would guess.
- Music - The two games have similar soundtracks, but they are not the same. The Dreamcast version has a total of 18 music tracks, while the N64 has only 12, and they are not all the same as the DC music. The DC music is mostly based on the arcade soundtrack, while the N64 has a somewhat different soundtrack. Perhaps because it's what I am most familiar with, I've always liked the N64 soundtrack the best. The DC soundtrack is good, but just doesn't match up to the N64 music for me... where they are different, I mostly prefer the N64. Both soundtracks should be on Youtube, for comparison. So yeah, I prefer the N64 here subjectively, but objectively I don't know, it depends on the listener I'm sure.
- On the N64 tracks are named with numbers -- Track 1, Track 2, etc. On DC however each track has a word for a name instead -- Marina, etc. This isn't a better-or-worse thing, just different. It's just a bit weird that they didn't use consistent labelling between the two versions of the game.
Here are graphical differences between the two versions (not considering the downgrades in the N64 version when played without an Expansion Pak -- remember to always use it with Rush 2049, because there is no in-race music, no moving objects on the tracks (planes, trolley cars, and such), and no Race Track 6 or Extreme championship without the Expansion Pak.)
- Resolution - The N64 version runs at the N64-usual 320x240 interlaced resolution as far as I know, Dreamcast at 480i or 480p, with VGA progressive scan support.
- Framerate - Both versions run fine most of the time, but the N64 version does probably have a lower average framerate. The N64 version also has some occasional framerate issues, particularly on Race Track 6, but mostly it is smooth. The DC version probably runs at a higher framerate, though it's hard for me to tell, and doesn't have issues on Track 6. The MAT3 version does have some framerate problems, at least on Gamecube, that make it run maybe worse than the N64 version. But MAT3 has a lot of issues, so that shouldn't be surprising. All versions have some weird camera/framerate spinning issues while you're high in the air in jumps in the stunt arenas, so that's probably some camera engine issue and not framerate.
- Textures - Of course the DC version has sharp textures, just like the arcade, while the N64 has lower-res textures. The N64 textures look great, but they are clearer on DC.
- Special Visual Effects - While as far as I can tell the draw distance and model polygon counts are identical between versions almost all of the time, the DC does do a couple of things the N64 doesn't -- on DC there is a reflection of the car on that disc the car sits on in the car select screen that doesn't exist on N64; a building in track 3 has a cone of light emanating from the top of it on DC, while there's no light coming out of the top of the building on N64 (there may be other similar buildings elsewhere with missing light effects, that one just stands out); on night tracks (tracks 4 and 6) on Dreamcast the cars have projecting headlights, while they don't on N64. That's it, as far as I know.
- Draw Distance - for the most part, both versions have full draw distance all the way to the horizon. However, there are a couple of very minor instances of popup in the N64 version. The most obvious one are the small vertical cables on the Golden Gate Bridge (the small cables that connect the top cable to the one along the bridge deck) have a closer draw distance on the N64 than Dreamcast. This is one of the only places I've ever seen anything other than full detail all the way to the horizon in the N64 version. The other place is that rarely, particularly in Race Track 3 or 5, when you go around a turn into one of the big open areas, stuff may pop in far in the distance. This does not always occur and you have to REALLY be looking to see it before everything's appeared, but I have noticed it a few times while looking for popup. I don't think the DC version has a similar issue but I haven't played it enough to be certain.
Otherwise though, as far as I can tell the two games look the same, apart from the texture, resolution, and maybe framerate differences, fairly impressive for the N64 considering that both versions are down-ports from an arcade game with lots of added content made for the new console version, it wasn't N64-first. The DC version looks a little better, but the N64 version also looks great.
Overall, both versions are fantastic, you can't go wrong either way. Just avoid Midway Arcade Treasures 3 and its unconfigurable control settings and framerate problems, and stick with the N64 or Dreamcast versions of the game.
The point is that it looks like and is named for a stock car race. Sure, it doesn't play like it looks, thankfully, but I can see someone being turned off by the visual theme, sure. NASCAR is not the most interesting thing to many people outside of the US South...Quote:
Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118
Cruis'n USA and Daytona USA are almost certainly the two most successful (in sales and probably also revenues) arcade racing games ever, but as a single game Daytona is probably ahdead because Cruis'n USA's franchise was more successful than Daytona's -- Scud Race and Daytona 2 are somewhat obscure, while Cruis'n World and Exotica and the Fast & The Furious arcade games (which are Cruis'n games, from the same designer as the originals, just under a different name; it's so similar that Cruis'n for the Wii is a port of the first F&TF arcade game with the Cruis'n license put on it) all did well as well, spreading things out more. That is to say, I'd believe it if Daytona sold better than any one of those games individually, but if you compare the F&TF and Cruis'n arcade serieses to Daytona & Scud Race, I'd guess that the Cruisn-style ones might come out ahead... but who knows, we don't have the numbers.Quote:
Meanwhile a beat up Cruis'n USA machine may be found collecting dust in the corner of a random Pizza Hut every now and then. And I don't think I've seen a real Ridge Racer machine in years.
Yeah, I don't really know. I'm sure it's not much. But 9.26 million isn't exactly far from 9.5 million. "Tens of thousands" times four easily gets you to that number.Quote:
Originally Posted by A Black Falcon
Yet one of the State's it's most popular in is Pennsylvania, which is a northern state. Nascar hasn't really been a southern US sport for quite a few decades now.Quote:
Originally Posted by A Black Falcon
And I love the hypocrisy of you telling people to look beyond how N64 games look to see how the game plays, but here you are knocking Daytona USA for what it looks like. Daytona USA is an arcade racer. A Stock Car racer would be something like the NASCAR games.
Oh this bullshit again. Cruis'n World and Cruis'n Exotica as far as I can tell weren't nearly as successful as Cruis'n USA. And throwing in the Fast and the Furious games in there is just stupid. We don't combine the sales of Zelda and Mario just because they're made by the same people. Why should we do that here?Quote:
Originally Posted by A Black Falcon
But regardless of all that, Daytona USA is still popular in arcades and making money 22 years later! The same can not be said for any Cruis'n game or Fast and the Furious game. And before you bring up the Cruis'n game on the Wii and the Fast and the Furious games, Cruis'n for the Wii Sold less than Daytona USA on the Saturn. Let that sink in for a minute. A game that according to you is from a far more successful franchise sold less on the the most popular console of it's generation than Daytona USA sold on the least successful console of it's generation.
I'm sorry, but you are so full of shit with this. There is absolutely no evidence to point to Cruis'n being more popular than Daytona USA, no matter how you try and spin it.
Daytona USA is an arcade racing game with a stock car look. The name, cars, theme, it's all stock car racing. Yes, it doesn't play like a stock car game, thankfully, but it LOOKS like one, so if you don't play it and just pass on the game based on looks, as I imagine some people did, you wouldn't know that.Quote:
Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118
You shouldn't combine Zelda and Mario, but combining Cruis'n and F&TF isn't like that, it'd be like combining all Mario platformer game sales and also including Doki Doki Panic, or something like that. The Cruis'n and F&TF games are by the same people and play identically.Quote:
Oh this bullshit again. Cruis'n World and Cruis'n Exotica as far as I can tell weren't nearly as successful as Cruis'n USA. And throwing in the Fast and the Furious games in there is just stupid. We don't combine the sales of Zelda and Mario just because they're made by the same people. Why should we do that here?
You yourself admitted that you still see Cruis'n cabinets sometimes, and Raw Thrills' five F&TF games (which released between 2004 and 2010) are surely still in many arcades. Daytona is a showcase game that big arcades get a lot of, but the Cruis'n or F&TF games are the kind you'll see one of somewhere. You said that, and I agree, that's true. What you're missing is that those one cabinets here or there add up.Quote:
But regardless of all that, Daytona USA is still popular in arcades and making money 22 years later! The same can not be said for any Cruis'n game or Fast and the Furious game.
The Cruis'n series was always much more popular in arcades than at home; its sales peak at home was the N64 version of Cruis'n USA, which a lot of people got (and were disappointed by compared to the arcade game) just because there was almost nothing out in fall '96. Cruis'n games are fun, but don't have the depth that makes you keep coming back to a console game -- important when you're paying ~$50 for a game and not $0.50.Quote:
And before you bring up the Cruis'n game on the Wii and the Fast and the Furious games, Cruis'n for the Wii Sold less than Daytona USA on the Saturn. Let that sink in for a minute. A game that according to you is from a far more successful franchise sold less on the the most popular console of it's generation than Daytona USA sold on the least successful console of it's generation.
Also, F&TF/Cruis'n, as I said above, plays pretty much identically to Cruis'n USA. By the mid '00s people wanted more from a racing game, further hurting it once it got a home console port. Cruis'n for Wii has no additional features worth mentioning, unfortunately; in that respect it's a big step back from Cruis'n World or Exotica on the N64, games that do add a fair amount of new stuff. It also released years after the arcade game and was very harshly (and somewhat unfairly, considering its '04 original release date) bashed online for its bad graphics. So yeah, of COURSE it sold worse than Daytona USA, it'd be very shocking if it didn't! I remember all those threads on NeoGAF and the like bashing Cruis'n again and again for its bad graphics, that "Car Vault" picture, etc.
The decline of arcade ports may be a factor as well. It's noteworthy that there have been very, VERY few home ports of arcade racing games since, particularly Western ones. Raw Thrills, the company which made F&TF and that was founde by Eugene Jarvis, the creator of Defender, Robotron 2084, Cruis'n USA, etc, has published ten, yes, ten racing games after the first F&TF, which released in arcades in 2004. Not one has been ported to any other platform, not even the fairly prominent and high-quality H2 Overdrive, the new boat racing game from the original creators of Hydro Thunder. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raw_Thrills F&TF is the one and only racing game on that list to get a home port. And none of their light-gun games have gotten a home port since the Wii port of Target Terror (another '04 game and Raw Thrills' first release), either.
The series as a whole, not the game in specific. I said that Daytona USA probably outsold any individual Cruis'n game. But we know that the Cruis'n series is one of or the most successful arcade racing franchises ever, I've shown that in previous threads.Quote:
I'm sorry, but you are so full of shit with this. There is absolutely no evidence to point to Cruis'n being more popular than Daytona USA, no matter how you try and spin it.
As for "popular", though, I only ever said 'successful in arcades'. In terms of popularity with 'core' gamers, certainly Daytona USA is far ahead; the Cruis'n/F&TF games are designed as casual fun, and that's what they are. They aren't something with Daytona-like depth. But in arcade game sales and revenues, comparing Daytona, Daytona 2, and Scud Race to the Cruis'n trilogy? Who knows who won there, but it could well be Cruis'n.
Yeah and watching the cards drift is going to show people it doesn't drive like a stock car racer. Not to mention the 8 player aspect would get people to look past that.Quote:
Originally Posted by A Black Falcon
Yep, keep making excuses to get your way.Quote:
Originally Posted by A Black Falcon
I see Cruis'n Machines once in a while collecting dust and not being played. Every time I see Daytona Machines, they're being played. Those machines may still be out there and add up, but if they're not being played they're not making money. Daytona USA machines aren't only still around, they're still being maintained and making money. They're still some of the most popular machines in the arcades they're at. Not to mention Sega had to reissue it a few years back because there was demand for new machines. I'm sorry but no matter how hard you spin it, Cruis'n will ever add up to being more popular and successful than Daytona USA.Quote:
Originally Posted by A Black Falcon
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m...psb80poioy.gifQuote:
Originally Posted by A Black Falcon
Or maybe it didn't sell well because the series isn't popular. I'm sorry but if a franchise can't sell more than a bad Saturn port on arguably the most popular console of the decade it says something about the popularity of the franchise.Quote:
Originally Posted by A Black Falcon
Daytona USA is STILL making money in arcades. It's still one of the more popular arcade cabinets out there. It's still being sold on PSN and XBLA. Sega had to reissue new arcade cabinets a few years back to satisfy demand. The same cannot be said for the Cruis'n games. I'm sorry but no, Daytona USA was, and still is, more popular and more successful.Quote:
Originally Posted by A Black Falcon
Daytona USA still going strong in arcades after 20+ years.
http://hereisthecity.com/en-gb/2014/...rs-in-arcades/
Yeah, Daytona USA probably is the most successful arcade racing game ever, and it's still a great game. It's just too bad that it didn't create a series, the two followups never got home ports and weren't nearly as successful in arcades as the first one, either...Quote:
Originally Posted by gamevet
Only a relative few arcades have ever had the full 8-machine setups, though... sure, in places with that it's sure to get attention. But if there is only one or two?Quote:
Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118
That's not an excuse. What do you call a new game that plays the exact same way as some previous game from the same person who designed that past game? A spiritual sequel, or such? That's what the F&TF games are.Quote:
Yep, keep making excuses to get your way.
Though, that the first one was released on a console as Cruis'n ties the series together in fact as well as in concept.
Overall though, sure, they are different series, and can be counted separately. I did at one point mention only comparing the Cruis'n games to the three '90s Daytona games in sales, after all, not also F&TF. However, they are as similar as two "different" series could be.
You've said this before, but those machines would not be there if they were not making money. Arcade machines are only kept in their locations if they're making revenue. They cost money in upkeep, etc, they could not be there if not profitable. And "every single time I see a Daytona machine it is always being played" is a clear exaggeration.Quote:
I see Cruis'n Machines once in a while collecting dust and not being played. Every time I see Daytona Machines, they're being played. Those machines may still be out there and add up, but if they're not being played they're not making money. Daytona USA machines aren't only still around, they're still being maintained and making money.
The series was plenty popular in arcades. It was a concept perfectly designed to get people to play it in an arcade, the simplicity just didn't translate quite as well at home.Quote:
Or maybe it didn't sell well because the series isn't popular. I'm sorry but if a franchise can't sell more than a bad Saturn port on arguably the most popular console of the decade it says something about the popularity of the franchise.
For that last sentence, just because you say so it doesn't make it true. You have no actual evidence here to back up your claim. You obviously really, really hate Cruis'n, or something, there must be some reason you keep bringing the game up, but just because you dislike something it doesn't mean it wasn't popular! The Cruis'n / F&TF game design formula lasted in arcades for eight releases over 16 years. That would not happen if it wasn't quite financially successful.Quote:
Daytona USA is STILL making money in arcades. It's still one of the more popular arcade cabinets out there. It's still being sold on PSN and XBLA. Sega had to reissue new arcade cabinets a few years back to satisfy demand. The same cannot be said for the Cruis'n games. I'm sorry but no, Daytona USA was, and still is, more popular and more successful.
To repeat something I added to my last post but you might have missed: As for "popular", I only ever said 'successful in arcades'. In terms of popularity with 'core' gamers, certainly Daytona USA is far ahead; the Cruis'n/F&TF games are designed as casual fun, and that's what they are. They aren't something with Daytona-like depth. But in arcade game sales and revenues, comparing Daytona, Daytona 2, and Scud Race to the Cruis'n trilogy? Who knows who won there, but it could well be Cruis'n.
Doesn't matter. The first one alone is more successful and than the Cruis'n series will ever be.Quote:
Originally Posted by A Black Falcon
Just about every arcade I've ever been to with Daytona USA has at least 4 set up. Most have 6-8. Just about every Dave and Busters in the country has an 8 player Daytona set up. Hell HersheyPark's arcade has 4 Daytona USA and 8 Daytona USA 2 machines. They had 1 Cruisin' and 1 Fast and the Furious machine last time I was there, and they weren't being played.Quote:
Originally Posted by A Black Falcon
But I still don't see how any of this relates to seeing the cars drifting. You can still see that even in a single player cabinet. But again, the minimum I've ever seen is a 2 player cabinet. I'd say it's far more common to find 4-8 player setups than 1-2 player set ups for Daytona USA. Multiplayer is what makes that game successful.
But they're still not part of the Cruis'n series. You can't combine the two as you please to abuse numbers.Quote:
Originally Posted by A Black Falcon
And it sold like shit. That should tell you about the popularity and success of the franchise as a whole these days.Quote:
Originally Posted by A Black Falcon
Every time I walk into Dave and Busters or an amusement park Arcade that has Daytona, this is typically what I see:Quote:
Originally Posted by A Black Falcon
Almost all the seats taken and people waiting to play. When was the last time you saw that around a Cruis'n Cabinet or a Fast and the Furious cabinet? Here's the thing, the cost on those Cruis'n cabinets has already been eaten. It costs next to nothing to let it sit there even if it doesn't get played very often. Maintenance isn't an issue because it's not being played. Why do you need to pay to repair it when no ones playing it to risk breaking it? So yes, they may keep them sitting there even if they're not making a ton of money.
Yet Daytona was perfectly designed to get people to play it in the arcade and it translated to home pretty well. Not to mention Daytona has always been far more popular than Cruis'n. I'd say Cruis'n was far more popular on the N64 than it was in arcades. That's what most people associate it with these days. Looking it up on youtube there's far more results for the N64 version than there are for the Arcade version.Quote:
Originally Posted by A Black Falcon
Daytona USA is one of the highest grossing arcade games out there and it's still making money. The same cannot be said for any of the Cruis'n games. I'm not saying Cruis'n isn't a success, I'm saying it pales in comparison to Daytona USA. It may have some popularity, but again it pales in comparison to Daytona USA. I don't care how many sequels it gets. None of that matters when those sequels are still desperately competing with Sega's 22 year old game for customers.Quote:
Originally Posted by A Black Falcon
As for my disliking Cruis'n, I don't actually dislike it or hate it. I'm simply pointing out that Daytona was and still is the better game, and the fact it's still popular and making money in Arcades just solidifies that point. As for "Just because you dislike something doesn't mean it wasn't popular!", well just because you wish Cruis'n was more popular than Daytona USA doesn't make it true.
Again, Daytona USA is one of the highest grossing arcade games out there and it's still making money. It has 22 years of sales and revenue that's still going up, while Cruis'n peaked back in the 90s.Quote:
Originally Posted by A Black Falcon
The Cruis'n games were considered arcade fodder; They were pretty much the equivalent to Primal Rage for arcade fighting games. Those games were created using cheap hardware and dumped onto the market at bargain-bin prices. A Daytona USA cabinet was very expensive and it still managed to sell a lot of units because it was a serious money earner.