The N64 Mythology

Surely, that's a strawman, Black Tiger. I haven't seen such specific arguments. What I have seen is statements in favor of N64 similar to those made by Master System and Saturn fans explaining what's good about the system and how it's better than has been given credit for.

You really seem to have a big chip on your shoulder about Nintendo in general, like a lot on this site. I think you're a little too ready to take issue with certain statements, particularly anything posted by ABF.

Whatever ABF may be, he seems to me to be a multi-system classic gaming enthusiast, who plays and enjoys a wide variety. I don't think I've ever seen him make a purely "drive-by" comment on any topic, he always gives his reason, even if you and others think they're retarded. There's a point where you have to respect that (even if you think it's dumb), and stop posting the equivalent of "stop liking what I don't like!"

It's a tough situation between Nintendo and Sega fanboys as there's a lot misplaced anger a lot of the time.

Take those Sega ads from the 90s that directly attacked Nintendo fans as babies, Sega fans didn't make those ads but we got a lot of the anger spewed at us on the school yard. Speaking of the AVGN he actually has a video of his younger self just seething with fury over those Sega ads and making some really dumb points he admits like "Nintendo has stickers". :lol:
Those ads cut deep unfortunately as that hits the core of a kid's mind, they have a prank type show called 'Nathan for You' and in the segment 'Toy Company' he managed to sell a lousy toy rather effectively to a test group just by strongly suggesting other kids will call them a baby if they didn't buy the toy. If anything Sega probably made Nintendo kids that much more defensive and loyal over the years as they got older, certainly made them surly to Sega kids. :|

Mostly imo it's freaky how cult like Nintendo fans can be as the AVGN sounds like a Jehovah's Witness ever time he talks about the Super Nintendo even when that isn't even the subject matter of his Let's Play. Idk it seems like Nintendo fans should be more emotionally secure about their platform of choice when Nintendo still makes consoles and Sega doesn't.

Sega fans are definitely more like pet owners of many different kinds of pets while Nintendo fans at their worst are like 'cat people' which can't even hear anything negative about their pet or it's species in general and will slam all other pets. Sorry Nintendo fans but you're a lot like AFOLs who tirade about every brand that isn't LEGO as if the company pays you as an employee. I'm not saying Sega fanboys can't get crazy too but as group we've lived with the death of Sega consoles for a while now and we can't create as many new loyalists as the Wii U is doing as we speak, a new generation of Mario fans.

It's actually hard to believe there are Xbox fanboys when you consider the first one is virtually forgotten in the retro collecting world and the 360 was plagued with RODs. I guess brand loyalty can just come from not being able to buy every system per generation as I haven't seen anything as strong as the Bit Wars since in mental resonance. :)

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Originally Posted by stu

All I see in this thread is a desire to set the record straight and remove the large amount of myth and bullshit that surround the N64 and how wonderful the N64 fanboys think their system is.

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Yes. And replace it with other bullshit to balance things out i guess. Like how Mario 64 may have stolen a moveset from Tomb Raider or something.

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Originally Posted by Gentlegamer

Surely, that's a strawman, Black Tiger. I haven't seen such specific arguments. What I have seen is statements in favor of N64 similar to those made by Master System and Saturn fans explaining what's good about the system and how it's better than has been given credit for.

You really seem to have a big chip on your shoulder about Nintendo in general, like a lot on this site. I think you're a little too ready to take issue with certain statements, particularly anything posted by ABF.

Whatever ABF may be, he seems to me to be a multi-system classic gaming enthusiast, who plays and enjoys a wide variety. I don't think I've ever seen him make a purely "drive-by" comment on any topic, he always gives his reason, even if you and others think they're retarded. There's a point where you have to respect that (even if you think it's dumb), and stop posting the equivalent of "stop liking what I don't like!"

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I think that you've just missed a lot of the discussions that have gone on in recent years. I won't give equivalent examples of what people would have to say about the SMS and Saturn to be equal to the kinds of arguments this thread is actually addressing, because it sounds like you really have only read the modest ones about the N64 simply being "under-appreciated".

I don't have a problem with Nintendo or its libraries and generally appreciate them infinitely more than those who blindly download the opinions of others straight into their brains and regurgitate logic they don't really understand. I was an early adopter of the NES, SNES, N64, Gamecube and Wii. I bought Earthbound as soon as it came out and played it to death (as I did all games) and came to my own conclusions about it and haven't been interested in it since. My not rushing out to pay hundreds of dollars for it today or singing its praises without even playing it does not mean that I am the one with a twisted perspective. I instead paid good money for optimal Famicom, SNES and N64 setups because I appreciate the games and actually take them seriously. Mario 64 still is and likely will always be my favorite 3D "platformer" (particularly the DS version). But I don't blindly credit it with inventing 3D gaming nor ignore its imperfections, the only one of which that actually concerns me is the camera control, which thankfully was fixed in the DS version.

With ABF comments, it also sounds like you've missed many of his infamous flamings, both here and in other forums. Like many radical posters or even people dismissed as trolls, I don't hate him or take little of what he has to say seriously and I agree with what he has to say quite often (usually when he does simply provide a reason for a statement and leaves it at that). I also don't dislike any consoles and if you've really followed what I say about games, I'm of the minority who don't right off games with a thumbs up/down perspective and appreciate all games for what they are and what positives they have to offer. I also defend Nintendo-based targets of unfair dismissal regularly in various online discussions. Unfortunately, rarely does ABF stick to his reasoning and constantly evolves it to suit any and all opinions or arguments which don't fit his world view. Just like politicians who do the same, he loses respect by many people for so frequently contradicting himself within the same discussion and rarely giving a straight answer. If you are just skimming through a thread and only catch his initial comment on something, I'm sure that it does appear that he has a singular idea to briefly communicate. Like many though, after ABF gets carried away, chances are you don't bother reading his essays-as-posts in their entirety and miss his relentless "stop liking what I don't like!" and "only like what I don't like!" agenda.

The list in the opening comment wasn't made up by Barone as 'reasons the N64 sux'. They're all specific subjects that have derailed countless threads in this forum.

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Originally Posted by Black_Tiger

The list in the opening comment wasn't made up by Barone as 'reasons the N64 sux'. They're all specific subjects that have derailed countless threads in this forum.

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IIRC there isn't a single reference to the quality of the games cited in those statements.

IMO the people crying about the existence of this thread are the people who don't want to discuss the games or the systems by their own merits; plain and simple.

To show that Conker's shadow casting wasn't unmatched isn't a knock on the game itself; by any stretch of imagination.

But it really feels like - given the amount of unfounded whining I've witnessed in this thread - such things are a hard knock on those people who like to use the supposed relevance of a fabricated and overly glorified - be it due to fanboyism or just sheer ignorance - technical achievement of a game/console as a trump card to invalidate any criticism towards it.

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Originally Posted by Soulis

Yes. And replace it with other bullshit to balance things out i guess. Like how Mario 64 may have stolen a moveset from Tomb Raider or something.

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Well we now know they likely ripped off some or most the ideas for a 3D platform game from Argonaut, don't we? ;). But you had a good try at dismissing all the other valid points brought up in this thread by generalizing and glossing over them like you did.

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Originally Posted by Gentlegamer

I'm really starting to see that Sega fans have a huge lack of self awareness if they take issue with someone defending a system felt to be underrated by others.

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:lol: That's for sure.

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Originally Posted by Guntz

Yoshi is fully playable and an important part of Super Mario Sunshine. He's needed for numerous Shine Sprites and is automatically unlocked not long after starting the game.

Kinda hard to take you seriously on anything when you can't even be bothered to verify your information.

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So I forgot something about a game I've barely played in a decade or more, and dropped midway back then because I lost interest in it. It happens to everyone.

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Originally Posted by Gentlegamer

Surely, that's a strawman, Black Tiger. I haven't seen such specific arguments. What I have seen is statements in favor of N64 similar to those made by Master System and Saturn fans explaining what's good about the system and how it's better than has been given credit for.

You really seem to have a big chip on your shoulder about Nintendo in general, like a lot on this site. I think you're a little too ready to take issue with certain statements, particularly anything posted by ABF.

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Well, now I think you might have an idea of how big of a problem Black Tiger has with me, for whatever reason. He's posted stuff like this on PC Engine FX, too.

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Whatever ABF may be, he seems to me to be a multi-system classic gaming enthusiast, who plays and enjoys a wide variety.

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Quite accurate. I love games, TV console games, handheld console games, computer games, all of them.

In the past two years, for instance, my most-played TV console is probably the Turbografx+Turbo CD. Awesome system. :)

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I don't think I've ever seen him make a purely "drive-by" comment on any topic, he always gives his reason, even if you and others think they're retarded. There's a point where you have to respect that (even if you think it's dumb), and stop posting the equivalent of "stop liking what I don't like!"

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Yeah, that last sentence is really important, the difference between fact and opinion.

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Originally Posted by Black_Tiger

The N64 was unfortunate enough to see very little 2D support at the time that 3D games were still in their infancy. It also had the misfortune to follow the SNES and just like it, arrived far too late. It's not that the library itself is terrible, it's just that most of what came before and during was just so good. So it comes off as extreme when zealots continue to relentlessly push the idea that the N64 was far and away better than anything else at the time ("Saturn and PSX games are hideous!") and that any weaknesses were actually strengths.

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Basically the entire argument Black Tiger makes here is, as you say, "stop liking what I don't like". This post here is all just about your opinion. Mine is different, I don't adore the SNES like some do, and don't hate 5th-gen 3d either. That difference, between fact and opinion, is something I mention a lot and for good reason. Opinions are not facts.

Also, on a related note, these days it's a lot more common for people to bash the 3d graphics on all three systems than to say the N64 looks good and the other two bad. 5th-gen 3d has some definite downsides, but there are plenty of good things about 3d games from that era too, on any of the TV consoles that generation, as well as bad ones, once you get used to how them.

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Originally Posted by BladeJunker

It's a tough situation between Nintendo and Sega fanboys as there's a lot misplaced anger a lot of the time.

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I'm sure there was a lot of that in many places, but I never really experienced this myself. Yes, I liked Nintendo more than Sega, but I always liked the Genesis as well. I didn't own either the SNES or Genesis during the '90s of course, but I played the Genesis a lot more in the '90s and early '00s than I did the SNES, because I knew more people who owned the Genesis. The Genesis probably has a higher nostalgia value for me than the SNES does, though I like both systems equally of course overall. I knew some people with Nintendo stuff, some with Sega, some with both, some with only PC games (such as me at first, of course). Both systems were great. And they still are, I think the Genesis+SCD+32X and SNES+Satellaview have equal numbers of great games. I know there was a console war, and I'm sure I experienced some of it, but mostly it was just playing games on either system, and often liking them.

There is a huge difference here between that and the next generation. The PS1 is the first time there was a console I strongly disliked; it was the N64/PS1 and GC/PS2 arguments that were the big console wars for me, not the SNES and Genesis. I still kind of hate Sony because of those two generations.

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Originally Posted by Black_Tiger

Unfortunately, rarely does ABF stick to his reasoning and constantly evolves it to suit any and all opinions or arguments which don't fit his world view.

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Considering that my opinions on games virtually never change over time once I have set an opinion on something, this is the weirdest thing you say in your latest of many, many skewed, attack-filled posts you make about me. Why ARE you so obsessed over attacking me, both here and on PCEFX? It's kind of weird really... I've never made a post that about anyone, and won't.

For instance, here is my latest list of my favorite games I have (listed by platform): http://www.blackfalcongames.net/?p=231

And here is my list from 2004, for the platforms I had at the time: http://www.blackfalcongames.net/?p=241

Excepting a few of the GBA games, I still like everything on the older list; as I said, once I know what I think of a game, my thoughts on it don't change often. That's why these internet gaming arguments go on for so long, neither side gives in much. :)

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and rarely giving a straight answer.

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I am naturally cautious about giving absolute answers. When doing those "how much do you like a thing, choose a number 1 to 5' quizzes for instance, I rarely choose either 1 or 5, mostly just 2, 3, or 4 unless I am very sure of my opinion on that issue. That kind of response is often a much more accurate answer than an absolute, but flawed, "my opinion is the only right one".

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They're all specific subjects that have derailed countless threads in this forum.

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At least 14 or 16 of the 22 items on the list have absolutely nothing to do with me, so this is unlikely.

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Originally Posted by stu

I would hardly describe the N64 to be "underrated". If you look at the ridiculous amounts that N64 games go for in a variety of stores, if anything it is as overpriced/overrated as the NES and SNES games are.
All I see in this thread is a desire to set the record straight and remove the large amount of myth and bullshit that surround the N64 and how wonderful the N64 fanboys think their system is.

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A lot of people in recent years would say that the PS1, Saturn, and N64 all have horrible 3d graphics and badly dated games, so in a sense all three of them are under-rated, in particular their games that use polygons and not sprites. Sure, 5th-gen 3d is rough looking from a modern standpoint, but once you get used to it a lot of the 3d games are good on all three platforms...

I'll make a gentle counterargument to some of the threads here and say: sometimes it really does matter more who popularized something vs. who did it first.

Take music. There are tons of techniques that were used by Bach, Mozart, Beethoven et al. that seem to predict things seen in 20th-century music. But none of them committed to those techniques in a long-term, meaningful way; they simply used them once and moved on, so their actions had no long-term consequence or resonance. It's the composers who actually made those techniques a core part of their work who are now known for using them.

That's the way it should be, really; sometimes doing something "first" is trivial compared to doing it well, or doing it with complete commitment, or simply lucking into being the first one to do it and get a lot of attention for it. I know our sense of justice demands that pioneers get the credit and co-opters get called out, but eh, the world isn't a patent office -- it's more complicated than that.

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the counterexamples and research in the OP. But I think the premise of it is a losing battle at heart, because for a lot of American gamers (where the N64 was strongest & people are most sentimental about it), they don't really care what was "first" to do something, but rather what was first to do it and be popular, or the first to do it and be part of their own personal experience. To them, that is first.

So if you tell them a game on the 3DO did something before the N64 did it, they'll basically say "So what, who cares about a loser console like the 3DO?" It's a hardwired impulse based on tribalism.

And in fairness, all of us might do the same thing too in certain situations. Who among us wouldn't feel a flash of irritation and resentment at finding out that our beliefs were wrong? Who wouldn't want to shoot the messenger, rather than have to revise our stance? Most people get angry at that sort of thing, not grateful to have better information.

I had written another reply but the point here really is: keep it on topic or GTFO.
Please. :)

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Originally Posted by goldenband

I'll make a gentle counterargument to some of the threads here and say: sometimes it really does matter more who popularized something vs. who did it first.

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It'd be one thing if statements were phrased that way from the beginning. In my experience, "well they popularized it!" is a way of backtracking after having claimed they did something first and being shown to be wrong.

But I think a lot of times, what game "popularized" something is difficult to pinpoint, and in any case I don't find it particularly relevant.

I don't particularly understand the need to make these kind of claims and cling to them in the face of contradicting examples, tbh. For example, take the Zelda z-targeting thing. It would be perfectly valid to say that the game implemented a targeting system better than any game before it. Why isn't that good enough praise? Why does it have to have "invented" (and/or "popularized") something?

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Originally Posted by stu

Well we now know they likely ripped off some or most the ideas for a 3D platform game from Argonaut, don't we? ;).

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Probably yes. But what exactly? And how much? Do you know which idea about Mario 64 was original and which was not? And does it matter? Does it mean that because of this we have to justify random assumptions (like the Tomb Raider moveset) and take them seriously? Isn't that the same reason this thread was created for in the first place? To put a stop to such assumptions?

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Originally Posted by stu

But you had a good try at dismissing all the other valid points brought up in this thread by generalizing and glossing over them like you did.

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Like?

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Floating Runner: Quest for the 7 Crystals (Jan/1996) (PS1)

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Ok so this game was brought up to counter the "Mario 64 is the first 3D platformer" or something. While i personally can't be sure if Mario was indeed the first, (although i'm sure it was the first that did it right) this particular PS1 game doesn't look like it's anything close to a "real" 3D platformer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6Z3w8dBfa4

This looks like an overhead 2D game with polygon graphics. Much like those platform games like Goemon Adventure and Pandemonium that have 3D graphics but you can only move in limited directions. I haven't seen many videos of it but there is no verticality here, just a plain floor and some 3D walls and backgrounds. Yes, the game has 3D graphics but so did Crash Bandicoot. Yet Mario 64 is actually using that 3d dimension for, you know, actual 3D movement and exploration. And actual 3D level design with verticality, 3D structures you can climb, enter, explore, a controllable free roaming camera, etc.

Again, i'm not claiming that Mario was the first ever in this and that, but this PS1 game seems like desperate reaching to counter a popular argument, just for the sake of countering it.

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Originally Posted by j_factor

I don't particularly understand the need to make these kind of claims and cling to them in the face of contradicting examples, tbh. For example, take the Zelda z-targeting thing. It would be perfectly valid to say that the game implemented a targeting system better than any game before it. Why isn't that good enough praise? Why does it have to have "invented" (and/or "popularized") something?

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I agree with this.

Has everyone forgot about, or dismissed the importance of Jumping Flash, just because SM64 was more popular?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vyQI10yfl1E

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Originally Posted by Soulis

this particular PS1 game doesn't look like it's anything close to a "real" 3D platformer:

This looks like an overhead 2D game with polygon graphics. Much like those platform games like Goemon Adventure and Pandemonium that have 3D graphics but you can only move in limited directions.

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Dude, never go full retard.
Especially when you're judging a game based on a 5-minute lame footage you just saw for the first time in your life.





Yeah, not a 3D platformer since it doesn't have Mario and all his friends on it.

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Originally Posted by Soulis

Again, i'm not claiming that Mario was the first ever in this and that, but this PS1 game seems like desperate reaching to counter a popular argument, just for the sake of countering it.

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Lol. You've been such a sore loser in this thread.

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Originally Posted by Soulis

Probably yes. But what exactly? And how much? Do you know which idea about Mario 64 was original and which was not? And does it matter? Does it mean that because of this we have to justify random assumptions (like the Tomb Raider moveset) and take them seriously? Isn't that the same reason this thread was created for in the first place? To put a stop to such assumptions?


Like?

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Its kinda funny how you get your feathers ruffled at people suggesting that Mario 64 copied its moveset from Tomb Raider (a perfectly reasonable thing to suggest since they were both in development roughly at the same time) but have no issue with seemingly accepting the Nintendo fanboy notion that Mario 64 "created the 3d Platformer genre".


As for your question "Like?" I was referring to the fact that the only thing you were able nit pick out of the 46 odd pages of this thread is someone daring to suggest that Nintendo copied someone else on Mario64. This was the ONLY thing you were able whine about. The irony is that it does seem like Nintendo did likely copy the 3D platformer concept, just MAYBE not from Core Design.

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Originally Posted by gamevet

Has everyone forgot about, or dismissed the importance of Jumping Flash, just because SM64 was more popular?


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vyQI10yfl1E

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Yeah I was wondering that. Jumping Flash came out about a year before Mario 64.

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Originally Posted by stu

Yeah I was wondering that. Jumping Flash came out about a year before Mario 64.

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Well, let's not forget about Jumping Flash's father from 1994; it had some platforming already: