The N64 Mythology

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Originally Posted by chinitosoccer

"16)" you can add all of the Test Drive games for the PS1 developed by "Pitbull Syndicate", the "Off Road" spin offs also have point to point races, great games.

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Good call! Will do it ASAP.

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Originally Posted by EclecticGroove

Here is what Barone's first post in this thread looked like to me.
"People seem to think the N64 was an amazing and revolutionary piece of hardware that greatly impacted every console that came after, as well as gaming in general. But here's the reasons why that isn't the case."
What it seems many here are reading into it as:
"The N64 is a complete pile of shit, and it has nothing to offer anyone and all the games on it are crap."

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Thanks for reading it right. :cool:

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

The list in the OP is biased, though, it's not some objective collection of facts. Why is only the N64 targeted, and not any other console?

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Your whining in this segment is actually an oxymoron. The OP is about the N64, what do you expected?
And if you want to question what is written there, feel free to bring new sources, valid info to the table and teach us something new.

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

And it's not "let's examine claims made about N64 games and see which really are innovations and which have been done before", it's "let's only look at the ones that were done before". And why is it exclusively about some very specific things that the N64 didn't do first, for the most part, and not also about any of the things it DID do first? And why are some of the points in that list so specific that they barely mean anything (see my first post in this thread for a few examples of that), or are responses to obviously false statements like "only the N64 can do point-to-point racing"? Come on.

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Hmmm:

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

As for the Saturn, its point-to-point racers have plenty of popup too -- see Gale Racer (GAH close popup!), Outrun, and such. I imagine it's the same on the PS1...

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

You're right that those games have better draw distances, but all of those are "normal" racing games, about going around circuit-style courses where you are frequently making sharp turns. Point-to-point into-the-screen racing games like Outrun, Cruis'n USA, and the like aren't like that. Instead, you're almost always heading straight into the horizon in a long road which has only slight curves. As a result you've got a LOT more problems draw distance wise, since you'll probably have to go quite a lot farther out -- no sharp turns or environmental objects to hide stuff!

You can see this if, as I said, you compare the N64 versions of San Francisco Rush and Rush 2: Extreme Racing USA to California Speed. All three games clearly use the same engine, and all have fog a ways out... but in the Rush games, it's not too noticeable most of the time. Sure it's there, but you can see. But in Cal Speed, it seems much more noticeable... but it's not because the draw distance is any different, but instead is simply because of the different design of the games' point-to-point-style courses.

Does the Saturn have any later games with that style of track design? I couldn't think of any, which is why I mentioned Outrun and Gale Racer.

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You're welcome! ;)

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

The N64 uses filtering to turn those pixelated textures into blurry ones, so yes, N64 textures are not pixelated. When you get close to a texture on the N64, it looks blurry, as the filtering mixes together the pixels so you don't get that chunky, blocky look you get on other consoles of the time. It's an improvement on a technical level, though of course aesthetically that depends on the viewer.

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The point that you keep dodging, though, is that the textures used in the vast majority of the N64 games are clearly inferior to the ones used in the vast majority of Saturn and PS1 games released around the same time.

The excessive blurriness of the textures in such N64 games is a result of low quality textures + filtering; not only the filtering feature itself like you keep trying to force us to believe. That's the point, ABF.

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

Talking about comprehension problems, again here you make it clear you don't quite see how your posts read. How can you be so insulting and then not realize that people are going to actually read your words?

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It's very clear from both the feedback I've received due to the OP and from the replies you got that you're the one misreading and twisting things.

IMHO you should publicly pick one of the options below and go on from there:
A) I have a serious comprehension problem.
B) I'm a blind N64 fanboy.
C) I'm a very stubborn troll.
D) I'm a backpedaling Olympic gold medalist.
E) I'm a mixture of all previous options.

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

An insult is not a debate argument, and doesn't help you make what points you have. When you make posts like in that other thread there, or many in this thread, that are so loaded with insults for the console, anyone who likes the console, many things about the console, etc., you are making a (insult-laden) statement. And yet you really can't see how that looks to anyone reading the threads in question? That's unfortunate.

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This is what I'm seeing:
http://i.imgur.com/fSXcMZN.png

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

Oh, and as for the comment about Extreme-G 2, as I said in my last post, I got XG2 for the PC back in '99 or so, not the N64. Yes, the PC version is better, and I'd definitely recommend it. The N64 version is great and plays fine, I do have it now, but the PC version has higher-resolution graphics, a better framerate, and better music. The only downside to the PC version is its unfortunate complete omission of any multiplayer at all; you need the N64 verison for multiplayer. But otherwise, yes, the PC version is the one to get.

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But weren't you the same guy who was trying to dismiss some good Saturn racers due to supposedly superior versions released in other platforms like 10 years after and going clearly off of the discussion initially proposed?
Oh, OK.

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

Touge -- Ridge Racer 64?

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Not the same kind of Touge found in King of Spirits games.

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

Motorcycle - Excitebike 64 and Top Gear: Hyper Bike are great arcade-style games.
Both games are better than Manx TT and Hang-On GP.

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Excitebike 64 is a motocross game not a GP-style one like Manx TT and Hang-On GP; the fundamentals of the gameplay in such games are widely different but somehow you managed to directly compare them and, coincidentally, the N64 game is superior in your opinion. Congrats!

Top Gear: Hyper Bike's GP mode is *clearly* an afterthought; the tracks are basically motocross ones with very few changes. And the gameplay is awkward, to say the least.
Your luck is that probably very few people here played both this game and Manx TT, otherwise you'd be having even rougher times in this thread.

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

Excitebike 64 is right up there with the PC version of Moto Racer 2 on my list of the best motorcycle games ever.

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If I'd get a dollar every time you use the words "best" and "ever" when talking about an N64 game I'd be a rich man at this point.

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

"Quality over quantity" IS a valid point.

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Especially when such quality goes beyond your rose colored N64 glasses.

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

I was thinking that the N64 has more exclusive racing games than the Saturn, so any point on graphics wouldn't really matter

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So dodging the point once again? Great.

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

Lots more platform-exclusive racing games for the N64, that's for sure.

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Of course, who would be willing to buy super duper mediocre racers like N64's California Speed other than the ones living in an N64 bubble?

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

Wipeout 64 is not a "mirrored port" of Wipeout. It is a new game.

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Lmao.
It's Wipeout XL with downgraded music, downgraded track variability, downgraded textures, downgraded transparency effects, downgraded particle effects, etc but with more competitors on the track and better multiplayer mode.

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Championship Motocross Featuring Ricky Carmichael

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

Some random PS1 sim racer

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Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahaha

And there's also Supercross Circuit, ABF boy. Go dig the review scores again.





Now some quotes for you, ABF:

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1. Turok 2 runs pretty poorly in hi-res mode, but tolerably well in low-res or letterbox. It runs between 40-60fps on an emulator with my integrated video. Would this indicate that fillrate or latency are limiting the game?

2. PS1 is capable of drawing larger textures than N64, right? Does it use some sort of paging or indexing or something, or did it have a larger texture cache?

3. N64 really doesn't like hi-res mode much. Some games run ok with it. PS1 was capable of up to 640x480, but did it draw many 3D games above 320x240?

4. Anyone know the actual fillrate of the N64? I couldn't find it.

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Top Gear Rally, World Driver Championship and Stunt Racer 64's developer answers:

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1.
That will almost certainly be a fillrate issue.
I personally always felt like the N64's memory subsystem was broken, you're supposed to put Z and Color on different pages, to improve performance, it's clearly stated in the docs. In practice it made very little difference. With Z enabled, you'd be lucky to match fillrate with a PS1 (which of course had no Z)

2.
Neither has what you would term a texture cache today.
PS1 has a page of memory "VRAM" that contains all the textures, and the framebuffers, you can get textures in there larger than the maximum supported UV coords.
N64 has a tiny piece of memory 4K, where a texture must be manually loaded before you can render from it. If mipmapping is enabled, this is reduced to 2K because alternate mipmaps must be in opposite pages.


3.
There were a few High res games on PS1, but it wasn't common. Neither platform really had the fill rate to do it well accross a wide variety of genres.
N64 was probably hit a bit harder, because any extra memory pressure was bad.


4.
Wouldn't be of much use, the theoretical numbers were much higher than what you'd see in practice since it was bandwidth limited for the most part. Plus you have to take into account things like stalls while loading the texture into the cache which the PS1 never had to deal with.
Turning off Z made a considerable difference, World Driver runs without a Z buffer for this reason, but it was a significant risk when we made that decision, because it was unclear if Nintendo would bounce a title for excessive Z fighting.

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The same guy also said:

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I think it's unfair to characterise the PS1 as having a memory speed advantage over the N64, while it's true that the memory system was one os N64's biggest weaknesses, it doesn't really say anything about how it compared to PS1.

On the graphics side having seperate VRAM in PS1 means minimal contention and more predictable behavior. But even there is your comparing like to like, i.e. No Z then the N64 has a fillrate advantage IME.

In terms of access to main memory it was expensive on either platform, and neither had a good cache architecture but the N64's processor was clocked almost 3x the speed of the one in the PS1, so any penalty was relatively higher. On top of that you had the contention between the CPU and the other devices on the same bus and the memory latency was probably higher in real terms (actual ns measurements).

Comparing parts of consoles is a somewhat pointless excercise, You don't run a game on the memory subsystem alone. Most of the time how well somethng is put together as a whole is more important than the obvious core pieces.

Comparing N64 to PS1 as a whole is somewhat interesting only because on paper N64 was better in almost every measurable respect (I'd exclude audio from the list) at a hardware level and yet I'd argue that most of the best looking titles from that gen are on the PS1 side of the fence. And frankly IMO CD wasn't a factor for most of them and it has little to do with hardware in general (although I could bitch about the texture cache indefinitely), there were just very few "A" Teams working on N64.

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I'm not sure the N64 needed one, as I've stated before World Driver doesn't use it, but it was clearly something the ArtX thought was important enough to include. And the only Nintendo supplied uCode that made it practical to omit the ZBuffer didn't come until very late and was feature incomplete.

At a hardware level you build command lists in memory and DMA them to the local memory on the RSP, the RSP runs arbitrary code on the command list and eventually you output rendering primitives to the RDP. Most uCode writes this back out to memory into a circular buffer for the RDP to read (increasing the load on main memory), although it was technically possible for the RDP to read directly from RSP memory RAM was so restricted, the RDP tended to starve.

Reordering is certainly not as simple as on PS1, but you could run sets of static display lists in arbitrary orders pretty easilly.

I think most people used the Zbuffer because it was there.

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Try driving really fast in a straight line hitting your brakes really hard and turning, I wouldn't recomend it on public roads. depending on what order you do the latter in you'll find that you'll either keep going in a straight line (severe understeer) or spin around in circles (severe oversteer) or in some cars one and then the other. tires have a certain amount of grip, if you use it up trying to stop, you don't turn much and if you hit your brakes hard in a turn you transfer all you weight forwards and loose traction in the rear. WDC does actually have driver aids, very basic traction control and abs but the faster cars ar really on the border line of the what physics integration will cope with stably.

To be honest from a game play standpoint I was never really masively happy with the handling or game balance in World driver, the game was rushed out to meet a publishers fiscal quarter, in retrospect the first half of the game should have been shorter and the second part longer. On the physics side it's a pretty complete, suspension motion is approximated to be vertical, but outside of that it has a very complete tire and suspension model.

The way the joystick input affects the steering input has as much of an affect in the handling as anything in the physics. Gran Tourismo has a lot of things going on in this area, if your ever really bored, take out GT and look at how wheel angle changes with input, course position, facing and velocity. WDC is much simpler in this area, it usea a basic 3D mapping taking into acount only Joystick position and velocity as inputs.

On the technical side there are a couple of things in WDC that do affect the handling detrimentally, there is an abnormally large latency between changes to the input and seeing the result on screen (worst case 7/60th's versus 5/60's which would be more normal for a 30fps game), this is a direct result of the graphics archetecture. There is also an issue in banked corners which is a result of approximating curves with triangles, you can observe the same issue in Gran Tourismo, but some of the camera shake they do tends to hide it.

Also if I remember correctly car to car collision has a major math error in it, which I fixed for Stunt Racer 64, but I doubt most people would notice, since it requires backing one car diagonally into another to observe.

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Regarding the audio there not in mono and they're not MP3's.
It's actually an Amiga style tracker, channels are left or right, I can't remember how many channels we supported off the top of my head. N64 really didn't have good audio.

TGR happened because we were located just up the road from Kemco's US office. They were looking for a dev to do a Top Gear racing game on Nintendos upcoming platform, and several of us wanted to do a racing title.

The prerendered sequence we did back then was largely to convince Nintendo to get devkits, it wasn't a common sales tactic in those day, but since it's become common practice.

The physics engine went in very late in TGR, There were actually two developed and the first prooved to be unusable. I wrote the second one to dig us out of a dev hole. In terms of what's modelled it's similar in principle to the WDC one, the tire model is simpler and it has some bonus bugs in it. The WDC one is also about 10x faster (which gives you how an idea of how much implementation can change performance) mostly due to improvements in the collsion representation.

The Snow tracks came about because an artist volunteered to do it in a meeting with Kemco. Everyone loves the Jungle in the Snow...

The paintshop was an idea that had been thrown around internally, and I always fought against (I lost) because it hurt the graphics quality of the cars significantly.

Audio like our later titles was a tracker, because that's what our sound guy (Barry Leech at the time) wanted given the very significant constraints. At the time the Nintendo libraries used the RSP for the mixing, but we measured a significant performance penalty for this, so I wrote a mixer on the main CPU, which balanced load a bit better. For WDC we moved the mixing back to the RSP because we had access to the uCode and it wasn't really the bottleneck.

TGR was notable because it was the first game where we used a single package for all of our art assets, everything came out of Alias, and for the most part if you put something in thye model it would turn up in the game.

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Top Gear Overdrive which was written by Snowblind does, it's the only N64 game I can think of off the top of my head that used MP3 audio.

They probably presumed uCode would have been a support nightmare and I know that SGI had just had a problem when they released one of there systems uCode to a secific developer.
N64 uCode was not paricularly easy to develop, the tools were bad, the documentation minimal and you had to do everything including triangle setup. And there is nothing like trying to debug random hangs with no way to debug the case.

Zbuffer basically determines depth on a per pixel basis, without it, your stuck sorting on a per triangle basis or more often per group of triangles.

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A lot of N64 games used antialiasing, it supported two modes the faster of which incurred about a 10-20% penalty.
Both methods were very dependant on draw order, and used a single coverage value to weight the final color.

The bilinear filtering used 3 samples instead of four, you can see this if you look at a bilinear filtered circle texture it there it appears as if there are small tris making up the image and protruding beyond the edge.

Unfortunately Nintendo never widely released documentation on the vector unit.

The unit as a whole was crippled by the small texture "cache", and it's memory system.

About the only thing that didn't starve for memory access was the RSP and that's only because it would DMA data in large enough chunks that it could actually offset the hideous latency.

I've never tested actual fillrate, but with Z enabled it was probably ~30 mega pixels, it was certainly nowhere near the peak.

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3DO M2 was really impressive for the time even the single processor version was much faster than anything else at the time. It was a great example of unified memory done right, vs the N64 which was a great example of unified memory done wrong.
To be fair even if they had shipped it, it would have been at least 12 months later to market than the N64 and I can't see the box being particularly cheap.

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Sources:
https://forum.beyond3d.com/threads/a...estions.38182/
https://forum.beyond3d.com/threads/n...neration.1962/


Those quotes aren't very different from the in-game technical issues and hardware shortcomings which me, Kamahl and a few other guys have pointed in this thread and/or in previous discussions.

That WDC guy is still active in those forums AFAIK, so you, ABF, and the other N64 crying fanboys in this thread could send him a message telling how much of a troll, hater, ignorant and biased poster he is.
Oh and, please, don't forget to crucify him if he dares to say that he doesn't own an N64 anymore, something that would obviously invalidate all his input.

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Originally Posted by Barone

The bilinear filtering used 3 samples instead of four, you can see this if you look at a bilinear filtered circle texture it there it appears as if there are small tris making up the image and protruding beyond the edge.

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This sounds very much like the screen door effect I was talking about seeing in Star Fox 64. Fox's ship had this weird blocky halo around it.

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

Heh... did you not notice that the text you quoted disproves your entire case here?

First, you say that Daytona USA CCE should count because it has new tracks and changed graphics (and because you wrongly ignore the existence of the PC version). I agree that new tracks means a different game, yes.

Then, you quote something which points out that only SOME of the tracks in Wipeout 64 are altered versions of tracks from Wipeout and Wipeout XL. And again, it's tracks from BOTH games, not one; first you say Wipeout, then XL, but as I and the quote there make clear, no, it's tracks from both games, CHANGED versions of tracks from both games. And even more importantly... not all of the tracks in the game come from the previous two games, there is also new content.

So, if new content is enough to make Daytona USA CCE a new game, it obviously is for Wipeout 64 as well. And that's not even getting into the new sections of tracks, because the actual physical track layouts, again, are not identical to before.

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Sorry, let me bring up the rest of the quote:

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Originally Posted by Wikipedia

Most of the tracks in Wipeout 64 feature mirrored layouts of circuits from select tracks in Wipeout and Wipeout 2097, set in different locations. Some conversions are not perfectly accurate, as some corners were eased or cut entirely, elevations were changed, and there were no split track sections.[2] The only truly original circuit is the hidden Velocitar track, obtained by completing all six Race Challenges.[4]

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So the only new track is a hidden bonus track. The rest are from previous games and are gimped to make it easier. Daytona CCE has far more new content. It has new cars, new tracks, new modes, new music, and an entirely different engine that changes the way the game plays.

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

First, the PC ports of Daytona aren't obscure, PC gamers knew about them back then; I remember playing the game. But beyond that, who cares if it takes a bit of effort to play today? PC gamers are used to that kind of thing. The games will work, and exist. How hard it is to get them working is immaterial.

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So first we exclude Saturn games becaue they've been replaced by newer releases, but then when it's brought up an old PC port has compatibility issues on modern systems and shouldn't be taken as a serious replacement these days, it doesn't matter because it worked back in 1997. Could you flip flop any harder?

How about this. If you let us include the following on the Saturn list, we'll let you include Wipeout 64, Demolition Derby 64, and San Francisco Rush:

Daytona USA
Daytona USA CCE/CE
Sega Rally Championship
Virtua Racing
Wipeout
Wipeout XL
Destruction Derby
Sega Touring Car Championship
Need for Speed
Road Rash

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

Anyway, Daytona USA for PC isn't hard to get working. I just fired up the demo of the first version of Daytona USA for the PC. Other than not recognizing my gamepad, it works just fine on my current PC, and I'm sure that problem is fixable.

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Good for you. Google searching reveals though that it's quite common to have compatibility issues with it, even in XP.

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

Heh... are you saying this to cover for the fact that you're stretching pretty hard and, as you say, grasping at straws in your attempts to add games to the Saturn's sadly thin list of platform-exclusive racing games? Because that's what it sure sounds like.

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No, I'm pointing out that you're making up rules as you go to exclude good Saturn games that you know the N64 has nothing to come close to beating. You do it all the time, like when you say Virtua Fighter and Dead or Alive aren't 3D fighters so you don't have to compare the N64's abysmal 3D fighting games to those excellent fighters.

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

I don't know why you're ignoring the quality on that N64-exclusives, list, either. Top Gear Rally, Top Gear Overdrive, Top Gear Hyper-Bike, Big Mountain 2000, Rally Challenge 2000, Top Gear Rally 2, Beetle Adventure Racing, Rush 2: Extreme Racing USA, World Driver Championship, Stunt Racer 64, Excitebike 64, Mickey's Racing USA, Snowboard Kids 1 and 2, Iggy's 'Reckin Balls, Indy Racing 2000, and Wipeout 64 are good to great games, and there are more decent ones beyond those. Of those, Beetle Adventure Racing, Excitebike 64, Wipeout 64, Top Gear Rally, and World Driver Championship are particularly highly-regarded.

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They're the N64 equivalent of Wangan Dead Heat or Impact Racing. They're not bad, but they're not amazing by any means. The only ones that looked even close to matching the Saturn and PS1's best racers were World Driver Championship, Rush, and Wipeout 64. Most look like generic garbage in comparison to what the PS1 and Saturn have to offer. Just to give you an example I find Sega Touring Car Championship, arguably the worst first party racer on the system, to be better and more enjoyable than most of the generic crap you constantly bring up to pad the N64 library.

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

In comparison, on that Saturn list, what is there for quality games... for sure Virtua Racing and CrimeWave; maybe Touge 1 and 2; maybe Steep Slope Sliders; maybe Wangan Dead Heat and its followup; Hang-On GP and Cyber Speedway probably have a few fans, though I don't know if I'd have included them on the N64 list, as Extreme-G 1 is as good or better than either of those games and didn't make it as you can see... and I'm running out of games, unless those two boat-racing games are actually any good.

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I wouldn't consider Steep Slope Sliders or the N64 snowboarding games you included as racers. It's like throwing Tony Hawk in the list of PS1 racers. For quality racers on the Saturn I'd list these:

Daytona USA
Daytona USA CE
Sega Rally Championship
Sega Touring Car Championship
Manx TT Superbike
Virtua Racing (Arguably not as good as the 32X version, but it's unique enough to consider owning both versions.)
Sonic R
Need for Speed
Road Rash
Wipeout
Wipeout XL
Togue 1 and 2
Outrun
Power Drift
Street Racer

Just about all of those I'd say are better than what you constantly parade out from the N64 library. There's a lot of other ones on the system too, but I'd put those in the B Tier. But who am I kidding, you'll come up with more excuses to disqualify all those Saturn racers in hopes of making the N64 look better.

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

And somehow it's the N64 that has the weaker racing library? Not among exclusives, that's for sure, and exclusives matter the most! The Saturn has some good racing games, certainly, thanks to the strength of its early releases. I quite like more than a few racing games on the Saturn, Sega made many of the best racing games of the '90s. But the N64 has more racing games and probably a higher average quality level (thanks to better third-party racing games than the Saturn has, mostly). If you disagree on the point that exclusivity matters maybe you should make that your case, but I very much think it does.

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The N64 has a bigger racing library than the Saturn, I'm not denying that. Heck even it's third party output is better than some of the crap the Saturn has. But when we include the A Tier racers like Sega Rally, Daytona USA, Touring Car, etc. there's little to nothing on the N64 that comes close to those. Which would you rather have a handful of great racers, or a mountain of mediocre racers?

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

What, because you are? I think not. And anyway, no one here is saying that the eye cannot see over 30fps.

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My credibility is no worse than NeoGAFs. Just because a few idiots on NeoGAF claim they can't see the difference, doesn't discount that most people can tell the difference and if you can't it means there's something wrong with your eyes or your brain. Also fun fact, that Mario webm was found on NeoGAF.

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

Um... maybe the question-mark blocks might be scrolling their ? symbols slightly choppier on the right one (30fps)? Maybe? Or maybe not. Otherwise I can't really tell a difference there.

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Oh come on. Look at how the background scrolls more smoothly. Look at how Mario sticks out as a sprite and moves cleanly over the backgrounds. Look at how there's terrible ghosting going on in the 30fps video. I'm honestly not sure if you're trolling at this point. If you seriously can't tell the difference, there's something severely wrong with your eyes.

I'm surprised you didn't add Sonic R to your list TrekkiesUnite118.

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Originally Posted by gamevet

I'm surprised you didn't add Sonic R to your list TrekkiesUnite118.

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I thought it was already in the list. Or did he not include that one either? If so we should get Sonic R as well if he can include Wipeout64, Destruction Derby 64, and San Francisco Rush. Being Colorblind I actually prefer the Saturn version of Sonic R because I can actually see the track in Radiant Emerald:

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Originally Posted by chinitosoccer

"16)" you can add all of the Test Drive games for the PS1 developed by "Pitbull Syndicate", the "Off Road" spin offs also have point to point races, great games.

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Oh man, Test Drive Off-Road 1... I got that game for the PC back in 1997, and thought it was one of the worst racing gmaes I have ever played. I still hate it.

Test Drives 4 through 6, though, those games are good fun yes, I actually like them quite a bit. And yes, they are point-to-point mostly (5 and 6 add in some circuit races as well, or at least 6 does). Test Drives 4 though 6 are under-rated, really.

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Originally Posted by Barone

Your whining in this segment is actually an oxymoron. The OP is about the N64, what do you expected?

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I would expect, at minimum, a list which includes things that the N64 did do first, along with the things games on other systems did first.

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Hmmm:

You're welcome! ;)

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Huh? But that quote has nothing to do with the claim in the OP, nothing whatsoever!

Those two quotes are from a debate over draw distances in N64 vs. Saturn games. That is, fillrates, in a genre where lots of games, of course, use streaming.

You then chose to write an alternate version of that statement for this OP. It no longer mentions fillrates, no longer mentions that it was only about N64 v. Saturn, no longer mentions that the issue was not loading from cartridges but was actually polygon counts and fillrates in racing games, and the result is something that has no relation to anything I actually said.

All I say there is that I can't think of any Saturn games like that, not that the Saturn couldn't do that, and of course the Playstation wasn't being discussed at all. And as the quote shows, I was talking about draw distances in specific -- how in a point-to-point racer generally there are fewer sharp curves so the draw distance is more obvious, as you indeed see when you compare California Speed to SF Rush. It was a discussion about draw distance, Saturn v. N64. In the next post you mentioned NFS and Road Rash, which indeed are good examples to look at for the Saturn.

But seriously, how you got from a couple of quotes from a discussion about draw distances on the Saturn and N64 only to the crazy statement you reply to in the OP of this thread makes no sense. Those two quotes there have nothing in common with the claim you put in the OP. If you actually look at what I was saying, it was that both the N64 and Saturn have draw distance issues in racing games. That's all. I was saying "people love to bash the N64 for its fog, but the Saturn also has lots of games with poor draw distances". There was no mention of the Playstation (which of course does have point-to-point games like those, I have some of them such as Test Drive 4), no mention that the N64 is the only console that could do those things (which of course it isn't; I had/have Test Drive 4 for PS1, NFS for Saturn, etc.), none of that, because I didn't think those things and they obviously are not true.

If you are going to respond to a quote, respond to what was actually said, not something else that was not actually said and has nothing in common with the original statement. The insinuation of the quote in the OP -- that is, that someone said that the N64 could do larger tracks in racing games because it could load from the cartridge instead of streaming data from a CD at slower speeds -- honestly isn't something I think I've ever considered before. I know that streaming is frequently done in racing games, and it's a genre much easier to pull that off in than it is in, say, a 3d action-adventure game or 3d platformer, so I wouldn't think that because it's obvious nonsense.

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The point that you keep dodging, though, is that the textures used in the vast majority of the N64 games are clearly inferior to the ones used in the vast majority of Saturn and PS1 games released around the same time.

The excessive blurriness of the textures in such N64 games is a result of low quality textures + filtering; not only the filtering feature itself like you keep trying to force us to believe. That's the point, ABF.

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I don't dodge that, I've said before that the small texture cache is the N64's biggest hardware flaw. I just think that it's not so bad once you get used to it, and the perspective issues on the other systems (PS1 particularly) are FAR worse of an issue, as far as graphical issues on 5th-gen consoles go.

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It's very clear from both the feedback I've received due to the OP

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There is thing "very clear" from the positive feedback you have received: There are also a lot of other people on this forum who still hate Nintendo. Of course, we knew that already, so that's not news. So you attack me because I like both Nintendo and Sega, instead of only Sega.

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But weren't you the same guy who was trying to dismiss some good Saturn racers due to supposedly superior versions released in other platforms like 10 years after and going clearly off of the discussion initially proposed?
Oh, OK.

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You might have an actual point here if XG2 had been in my 'exclusive games' list, but it's not, so you don't. I love XG2, it's a fantastic game, but as I said, more so for its great PC version than for the N64 version. It'd go into the same category as Daytona CCE and Scorcher for Saturn, great racing games that are on both PC and one console.

Also, just as many of those N64 games that were removed from the second list are from "10 years later" ports as Saturn games were. Mario Kart 64 and Wave Race 64 were removed because of their Wii Virtual Console ports, for example. I was entirely equal in removing all games with releases on any other platform, and it hurt both lists -- that N64 list is good, but would be better with MK64 and Wave Race on it!

Actually, I'm pretty sure that the only games I removed exclusively because of modern ports (ie not ports released within a few years of the original game) are N64 games -- Mario Kart 64, Wave Race 64 (these two because of Wii VC), and Diddy Kong Racing and Ridge Racer 64 (because of the DS versions). Daytona USA's PC versions are from the '90s, after all.

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Not the same kind of Touge found in King of Spirits games.

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How so? They're both mountain drift racing... but whatever, I haven't spent much of any time with anything in that genre other than the Ridge Racer games, so I wouldn't know the differences.

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Excitebike 64 is a motocross game not a GP-style one like Manx TT and Hang-On GP; the fundamentals of the gameplay in such games are widely different but somehow you managed to directly compare them and, coincidentally, the N64 game is superior in your opinion. Congrats!

Top Gear: Hyper Bike's GP mode is *clearly* an afterthought; the tracks are basically motocross ones with very few changes. And the gameplay is awkward, to say the least.

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Motorcycle games are motorcycle games as far as I'm concerned, who cares which specific type of bikes they use? Moto Racer 2 has both dirtbikes and superbikes, but it plays fairly similarly with both. It's not a multi-genre game or something... but sure, all three N64 motorcycle racing games are mostly dirtbike-racing focused -- the other one is EA Sports Superbike 2000, another dirtbike-racing game.

As for Top Gear Hyper-Bike, yeah, the game's not the best, but I like it. I do think that it's unfortunate that the game was rushed out the door; it was originally supposed to have 4-player splitscreen and on-cart saving, but both got cut, and it released in early 2000 only 5 months after Top Gear Rally 2. It's from a different developer, but still, that's quite close for two games in the same franchise. Some more time to polish the game and add to the featureset would have been great. But what's there is good.

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Your luck is that probably very few people here played both this game and Manx TT, otherwise you'd be having even rougher times in this thread.

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Some people played it, they just didn't seem to like it any more than I did.

Have I mentioned, though, that I actually think Hang-On GP is actually pretty fun? Yeah, the graphics are dated, but with a racing wheel it controls well, and it's a fun game for 1995. And it has five tracks too, far more than Manx TT... after all the hate Hang-On GP seems to get I wasn't expecting much when I got it, oh, last year or so, but it's good.

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Of course, who would be willing to buy super duper mediocre racers like N64's California Speed other than the ones living in an N64 bubble?

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Right, right, because console-exclusive N64 racers begin and end with that decent but simple arcade port (that isn't on my list there because it's an arcade port), huh? Not with the games people actually talk about a lot and actually are exclusive, most notably World Driver Championship and Beetle Adventure Racing, it's California Speed. Right. Cal Speed is a fun little game, but it's no system seller for sure, I know that. It's the kind of thing you get and have fun with if you have the system but don't get the system to buy, sort of like, oh, Hang-On GP on Saturn.

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Lmao.
It's Wipeout XL with downgraded music, downgraded track variability, downgraded textures, downgraded transparency effect, downgraded particle effects, etc but with more competitors on the track and better multiplayer mode.

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Downgraded track variability? What? And anyway, it can't be Wipeout XL when some tracks come from the original game, some from XL, and there is also a new track too. And you forgot to mention that the single player mode is also all-new and a new concept for the series, and the physical changes to the tracks that change how they play -- if I remember right, they changed some of the hardest turns from the tracks they reused, which makes the game still really hard (you need to learn the braking for every turn if you want a good lap time!) but maybe a bit less hard than its predecessors.

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Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahaha

And there's also Supercross Circuit, ABF boy. Go dig the review scores again.

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What, you want to add to the list of C-grade motorcycle racing games I don't know if I've ever heard of before (or at least, not paid any attention to if I did know they existed) that reviewers thought weren't nearly as good as Excitebike 64? Okay.

Gamerankings:
PS Supercross Circuit
Idol Minds/989 Sports, 1999 70.93%
15 Reviews

Sure, I've never played this game either and maybe they are fun, but their review scores don't exactly make me think that I've missed out on something as great as Excitebike 64 or Moto Racer 2. Do you feel for those games like I do Top Gear Hyper-Bike, a game I definitely like a lot more than its 62% average on GameRankings would suggest?


Oh, I do like the outdoor tracks in Excitebike 64 a LOT more than the arena tracks. The arena races are okay, but it's the outdoor tracks where the game really shines. Moto Racer 2 is all great fun, though, so maybe that game is better overall... but Excitebike 64 has bigger, wider tracks, and I don't know if MR2 ever quite matches how much fun those outdoor tracks are in Excitebike 64. And I love the depth of EB64's boost-meter system, MR2 is a much simpler game in that respect (just hit wheelie and try to not crash). It's hard to choose which of the two I like more overall.

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Now some quotes to you, ABF:

Top Gear Rally, World Driver Championship and Stunt Racer 64's developer answers:

The same guy also said:

Sources:
https://forum.beyond3d.com/threads/a...estions.38182/
https://forum.beyond3d.com/threads/n...neration.1962/


Those quotes aren't very different from the in-game technical issues and hardware shortcomings which me, Kamahl and a few other guys have pointed in this thread and/or in previous discussions.

That WDC guy is still active in those forums AFAIK, so you, ABF, and the other N64 crying fanboys in this thread could send him a message telling how much of a troll, hater, ignorant and biased poster he is.

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Yeah, I've read this stuff before, very interesting stuff! It's all reasonable and told us a lot about the system. There's only one thing there I'd disagree with, and that's his statement of pure opinion that "I'd argue that most of the best looking titles from that gen are on the PS1 side of the fence.", but what he says right after that about the PS1 having far more "A" developers is of course absolutely true, so for aesthetic graphcis I'm sure overall the PS1 has more good-looking \games. But technically, not in my opinion. But anyway, otherwise, why do you think I'd hate what he has to say? It's all true stuff we knew -- Nintendo was VERY stingy with letting developers see the system's microcode (this was a mistake), the microcode was hard to program for (unfortunate), for one thing related to this he doesn't mention but other developers have Nintendo never issues any alternate microcodes (such as a more 2d-specific one); mip-mapping cuts the 4KB texture cache in half; the N64 with all effects on averages as much or less fillrate than you see on the PS1, and almost all games use the effects so few N64 games show its true polygon power (because z-buffering and such was prioritized above raw fillrates); Sony had far more developers working for their system; N64 development was tricky; putting sound on the main CPU meant audio took up processing time; and such. Yeah, I know that stuff. It's always great to hear devs talk about these things, because it helps with understanding the systems in question.

Oh, and as for the 3DO M2, it would have been a "next-gen" console, not the same generation as the N64, so I would hope it would do things better, and all accounts say that yes, it was a nice improvement technically over previous systems.

First, I made two mistakes in that 'exclusives' list. Going back and looking through it again found these. Sorry about that.

- F1 Challenge (Saturn) is a true exclusive, as far as I can tell; I wrongly removed it as an arcade port.

- Snowboard Kids (N64) also has an obscure Japan-only Playstation version I'd forgotten about, that game should have been removed.

These fixes have been edited into the original list. (Snowboard Kids 2 is indeed a true exclusive, however; it's the better game, so removing the first one doesn't hurt the N64 list much. F1 Challenge is a definite addition for the Saturn, though.)

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

Sorry, let me bring up the rest of the quote:

So the only new track is a hidden bonus track. The rest are from previous games and are gimped to make it easier. Daytona CCE has far more new content. It has new cars, new tracks, new modes, new music, and an entirely different engine that changes the way the game plays.

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Who cares if it's a hidden bonus track or not? It's a new track. One of only seven in the game. That's a significant amount of content when you're talking about so few tracks.

Also, I wouldn't say "gimped", I would say "improved". I know about the shaved corners, etc, I just think that making the game slightly easier made it better. As I said in my last post, it's still a very hard game, you just don't need to almost stop at some corners anymore, you just need to learn all the airbraking perfectly.


Ridge Racer 64 is another N64 game that is a mixture of content from previous games and new content -- it's got two old tracks and one new one, each with three variants (though one of the three variants of one of the two old tracks is also new). Would you "count" that one as a that-gen-N64-exclusive title? (It wasn't on my "exclusives" list because of the Nintendo DS version, Ridge Racer DS, but otherwise the game is N64-exclusive.) I count it as a new game, same as Wipeout 64 or Daytona CCE/CE.

I'm sure some people would say that Carmageddon 64 and Monster Truck Madness 64 are games that are different enough from their original PC versions that they are different games and not ports, but I counted those as ports and thus removed them, to mention a few games I put on the other side of this line. I think they're ports with minimal changes, but I should look into that again, maybe there is more new content there.

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So first we exclude Saturn games becaue they've been replaced by newer releases,

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And N64 games as well. The N64 lost just as many games to this as the Saturn did, or more.

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but then when it's brought up an old PC port has compatibility issues on modern systems and shouldn't be taken as a serious replacement these days, it doesn't matter because it worked back in 1997. Could you flip flop any harder?

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... Flip-flop? What? "true exclusives only" is a very consistent rule with no flip-flopping involved.

First, as I said, Daytona USA for PC works on my computer, which is from the late '00s. It's not some game you need a 15-year-old computer to run. And second, a game is a game. Why should a game suddenly be taken away from existence just because it has some kind of issue that makes it harder to get running? As a PC-focused gamer in the '90s, the basic concept of what you say here is ludicrous! When you have issues running a game, you figure out what those issues are and try to fix them. You don't pretend that the game doesn't exist.


If your issue is just that games on PC and one console should count as "exclusives" because console companies love to call games "exclusive" which are on PC and just their console, or arcade and just their console, that would add quite a bit to both the N64 and Saturn lists. That's a reasonable list to make, actually; one that uses the standard console definition of "exclusive" which isn't a true exclusive, but includes games also on computer or arcades as "exclusive". I focused on true exclusives because they are the ones that matter the most, games you really can't play anywhere else.


Here is why games were removed from the starting lists of all racing games for each system.


For games released only in arcades and on one console, only, revoking this removal this would add: N64: Cruis'n World, Cruis'n Exotica, Off-Road Challenge, California Speed; Saturn: Gale Racer.

Games in the above category that generation, but they later got a port to a console of a newer generation, revoking this removal this would add: N64: Cruis'n USA (ported to Wii); Saturn: None.


For games released in arcades, one console, and PC only, revoking this removal would add: N64: San Francisco Rush: Extreme Racing; Saturn: Manx TT Superbike, Sega Touring Car Championship.

Games in the above category that generation, but they later got a port to a console of a newer generation, revoking this removal this would add: N64: None; Saturn: Daytona USA (later ported to Xbox 360 & PS3), Sega Rally Championship (later ported to PS2).


For games released on PC and 1 console only, revoking this removal this would add: N64: Extreme-G 2, Monster Truck Madness 64, Carmageddon 64; for Saturn: Daytona USA CCE/CE, Scorcher, Sonic R. (Sonic R also later got a port on a next-generation platform, on Gamecube, but the PC port came shortly after the original release, during that same generation.)


Previously true-exclusive games that later got a port to a console of a newer generation, revoking this removal this would add: for Saturn: none; for N64: Mario Kart 64 (ported to Wii), Diddy Kong Racing (ported to DS), 1080 Snowboarding (ported to Wii), F-Zero X (ported to Wii), Wave Race 64 (ported to Wii), and Ridge Racer 64 (ported to DS).


Arcade ports, also available on other platforms but not in the same exact form as their console release here, revoking this removal this would add: N64: None; Saturn: Chase H.Q. + S.C.I. (this specific collection is Saturn-only, but both base games have many conversions and are arcade games originally), Outrun (another title that is a Saturn-exclusive version of an arcade game available on many platforms)


Games also on Playstation 1 (and maybe also Dreamcast) and thus they definitely cannot count: N64: NASCAR '99 and 2000, Polaris SnoCross, F1 Racing Championship, Jeremy McGrath Supercross 2000, Hydro Thunder, Hot Wheels Turbo Racing, Roadsters, Lego Racers, V-Rally Edition '99, Monaco Grand Prix, F1 Racing Simulation, F1 World Grand Prix, South Park Rally, Micro Machines 64 Turbo, Re/Volt, S.C.A.R.S., Snowboard Kids; Saturn: Hi-Octane, Off-World Interceptor Extreme, Andretti Racing, Need for Speed, Road Rash, Wipeout, Wipeout XL, Hardcore 4x4, Destruction Derby, Formula Karts, NASCAR '98, Street Racer, Impact Racing, Zap! Snowboarding Trix '98.

Games console-exclusive that generation, but also released at the same time or only shortly afterwards on Dreamcast, a next-gen platform (and in some cases also PC): N64: San Francisco Rush 2049, F1 World Grand Prix II, Star Wars Episode I Racer; Saturn: None.


Some of these removals favor the N64, others favor the Saturn, others hurt both equally; there is no pattern, except that all remove multiplatform games.

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How about this. If you let us include the following on the Saturn list, we'll let you include Wipeout 64, Demolition Derby 64, and San Francisco Rush:

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... Why would I need you "let me include" Demolition Derby 64 when the game shares nothing from the other games in the series other than a name and basic "destruction derby racing" theme? You can't randomly not count some game just because it has a name similar to some other game, that'd make about as much sense as claiming that, say, Shadow Warrior (1997) and Shadow Warrior (2014) are the same exact game because their names are the same, when, of course, they are not. And as for SF Rush, it's also on PC (yes, there is an obscure PC version, though I've never played it) and arcades, so of course it wouldn't be on that list. As for Rush 2 though, that game is a true N64 exclusive not available anywhere else so it is.

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Daytona USA
Daytona USA CCE/CE
Sega Rally Championship
Virtua Racing
Wipeout
Wipeout XL
Destruction Derby
Sega Touring Car Championship
Need for Speed
Road Rash

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You can't just include any game also on Playstation just because you want to, your list here makes no sense.

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Good for you. Google searching reveals though that it's quite common to have compatibility issues with it, even in XP.

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I believe that, most of Sega's '90s PC games can be hard to get running on modern PCs. This does not make them not exist. And some do still work, and others have fixes.

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No, I'm pointing out that you're making up rules as you go to exclude good Saturn games that you know the N64 has nothing to come close to beating.

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For what, the 5th time now, the N64 loses just as many great games to "true exclusives only" as the Saturn does. I would never make a list designed to produce a certain result; I may make a list with a specific question in mind that I might think I know the answer to, but one of the points of making the list is testing that theory. Once the list is done, the results that you get after compiling the evidence may either prove or disprove the theory, depending. I've had some lists go each way on that.

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They're the N64 equivalent of Wangan Dead Heat or Impact Racing. They're not bad, but they're not amazing by any means.

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This is a really crazy thing to say! Have you ever played even half of those games? If you had, there's no way you'd be seriously comparing them to boring, subpar games like Impact Racing. Yes, I have that game for Saturn. It's thoroughly forgettable.

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The only ones that looked even close to matching the Saturn and PS1's best racers were World Driver Championship, Rush, and Wipeout 64. Most look like generic garbage in comparison to what the PS1 and Saturn have to offer. Just to give you an example I find Sega Touring Car Championship, arguably the worst first party racer on the system, to be better and more enjoyable than most of the generic crap you constantly bring up to pad the N64 library.

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I don't think too much of some of the Saturn games in your list, either -- Touge? Wangan Dead Heat? Sega Touring Car? Sure, I haven't played much of those games, but my first impressions with them were not great; average perhaps, but not much above that. I don't care for the first Need for Speed game either, on your list below, or Road Rash as well (of course, I don't much like the Genesis Road Rash games either). Street Racer... I have it for SNES and PS1, I actually like the SNES version more than PS1. It is a good game on SNES though. Manx TT is disappointing and needs content, even if it plays okay. The rest of the games you list I like more, but I like the N64's library more overall.

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I wouldn't consider Steep Slope Sliders or the N64 snowboarding games you included as racers. It's like throwing Tony Hawk in the list of PS1 racers.

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No, it wouldn't. In Tony Hawk, you go around an arena and try to score points within the time limit. There is no racing. But 1080 and, I presume, Steep Slope Sliers do have racing. Yes, they also have stunt modes, but that isn't the whole game, or at least it isn't for 1080. And that's fortunate, because I've never liked the 1080 or Tony Hawk style of stunt game; I like the 1080 games for the racing, not the stunts.

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For quality racers on the Saturn I'd list these:

Daytona USA
Daytona USA CE
Sega Rally Championship
Sega Touring Car Championship
Manx TT Superbike
Virtua Racing (Arguably not as good as the 32X version, but it's unique enough to consider owning both versions.)
Sonic R
Need for Speed
Road Rash
Wipeout
Wipeout XL
Togue 1 and 2
Outrun
Power Drift
Street Racer

Just about all of those I'd say are better than what you constantly parade out from the N64 library. There's a lot of other ones on the system too, but I'd put those in the B Tier. But who am I kidding, you'll come up with more excuses to disqualify all those Saturn racers in hopes of making the N64 look better.

The N64 has a bigger racing library than the Saturn, I'm not denying that. Heck even it's third party output is better than some of the crap the Saturn has. But when we include the A Tier racers like Sega Rally, Daytona USA, Touring Car, etc. there's little to nothing on the N64 that comes close to those. Which would you rather have a handful of great racers, or a mountain of mediocre racers?

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This question is based on the belief that Sega's racing games are unmatched, though, and I don't believe that. They are really great, but they aren't the ONLY really great racing games from the time. My opinion here is quite different from yours, but remember, it's all just opinion, for both of us.

For instance, these are my favorite arcade racing games ever (arcade, not home console versions of the games), not necessarily in order -- San Francisco Rush The Rock: Alcatraz Edition, Daytona USA, Ivan "Ironman" Stewart's Super Off-Road, Hydro Thunder, and Outrun, for a top 5. Honorable mentions / games on a top 10+ games would include San Francisco Rush 2049 SE, Scud Race, Ballistics, Outrun 2, Sega Rally, Hard Drivin', Hang-On, and H2 Overdrive. A few games I would almost certainly include if I had ever played them in arcades include F-Zero AX, Daytona USA 2, and Motor Raid. (Rush 2049 arcade version isn't higher because I like the console version more than the arcade one.)

As you can see, it's a mix of Sega, Midway/successors, and some other games. Rush is my favorite overall racing game series. I've loved it ever since I played the first arcade game. So yeah, from my perspective, what you say here isn't quite right -- Sega did not have a near-monopoly on great racing games. Nintendo had Midway, and I like Midway's arcade racing games.

And on consoles, F-Zero X, San Francisco Rush 2049, and Wipeout 64 might STILL be my top three racing games of all time. F-Zero GX, F-Zero, and XGRA would be three of the next-best games. Remember, I really love futuristic racing games. :) (Yes, I badly wish Sega would have made more games like F-Zero GX!)

And as for first-party games, yeah, Sega has a lot more of them on Saturn than Nintendo does on N64, but Mario Kart 64 is better than Sonic R, 1080 is better than Steep Slope Sliders, F-Zero X is better than Cyber Speedway for futuristic racers (my favorite kind of racing game, remember!), and Sega never did make a Saturn water racing game, so in their categories the Nintendo games are better. All of those Sewga games are good too, but Sega's best racing games are car or bike games, not so much the stuff Nintendo was doing.


In conclusion, though, both the Saturn AND N64 have only "a handful" of great racing games per system, compared to their main competitor. For either system you MUST use a "quality over quantity" argument in the racing game genre, because the Playstation has an overwhelmingly massive numbers advantage in the genre, and far more games in every subgenre of racing! Obviously the PS1 also has a ridiculously massive advantage in numbers of true-exclusive racing games as well.

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My credibility is no worse than NeoGAFs. Just because a few idiots on NeoGAF claim they can't see the difference, doesn't discount that most people can tell the difference and if you can't it means there's something wrong with your eyes or your brain. Also fun fact, that Mario webm was found on NeoGAF.

Oh come on. Look at how the background scrolls more smoothly. Look at how Mario sticks out as a sprite and moves cleanly over the backgrounds. Look at how there's terrible ghosting going on in the 30fps video. I'm honestly not sure if you're trolling at this point. If you seriously can't tell the difference, there's something severely wrong with your eyes.

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And now we're back to where we started, you seeming to fail to understand that not everyone's eyes work the same way. I watched the video a bunch of times, to the result I described.

Anyway...

I don't agree with ABF, many of the racing games he mentions on the N64 are mediocre at best. For me the Cruisin series, California Speed, Destruction Derby and the Rush games (before the 2049 game) are all crap. However, the good N64 Racing games are FAR better than Saturn's. In fact the only racing game i can tolerate on the console is Sega Rally and even that looks a bit slow to me on the PAL version (not to mention the "transparency" effects are god-awful). And Wipeout was crap on that console as well. You can argue that the PS1 had better racing games than the N64 but there is no way the Saturn can compete with the other two consoles.

Also, if you include that unplayable mess Sonic R in any list of good racing games, or that awful Virtua Racing port (seriously?) then honestly, you are not just reaching, you are even worse than ABF posting that Carmageddon 64 is an enjoyable game. Seriously guys, in your quest to prove ABF wrong in any single post he makes, you become worse than him.

Wipeout on the Saturn is good. It's more playable than the 1st title on the Playstation.

You may not Daytona, Soulis, but to consider it a bad racing game is wrong. Daytona is considered one of the greatest arcade racing games of all-time. The Saturn versions are good enough.

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Originally Posted by gamevet

You may not Daytona, Soulis, but to consider it a bad racing game is wrong. Daytona is considered one of the greatest arcade racing games of all-time. The Saturn versions are good enough.

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It may be good on the arcade, like you said one of the best arcade racing games. I can enjoy the XBLA version that is arcade perfect (and high-res). But the Saturn version just... it's not the arcade. Far from it. And after playing something like Ridge Racer on the PS1, this felt very bad.

If only Daytona USA CCE had a better draw distance. It's beyond terrible. You can see that the track just... stops existing in certain parts. Horrible.

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Originally Posted by Soulis

It may be good on the arcade, like you said one of the best arcade racing games. I can enjoy the XBLA version that is arcade perfect (and high-res). But the Saturn version just... it's not the arcade. Far from it. And after playing something like Ridge Racer on the PS1, this felt very bad.

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I'm not a big fan of Ridge Racer. The 1st title felt more like a tech demo than a full game. It wasn't until R4 that I started liking the franchise.

The Saturn version may not have the draw distance, or frame rate of the arcade game, but the power slides and feel of the arcade game are there. Virtua Racing on the Genesis, 32x and Saturn feel nothing like playing the arcade game.

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

They're the N64 equivalent of Wangan Dead Heat or Impact Racing. They're not bad, but they're not amazing by any means. The only ones that looked even close to matching the Saturn and PS1's best racers were World Driver Championship, Rush, and Wipeout 64. Most look like generic garbage in comparison to what the PS1 and Saturn have to offer. Just to give you an example I find Sega Touring Car Championship, arguably the worst first party racer on the system, to be better and more enjoyable than most of the generic crap you constantly bring up to pad the N64 library.

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Hey, hey now. Beetle Adventure Racing and Excitebike 64 were both exceptionally good. So too was Diddy Kong Racing. Let's not get carried away with the N64 hate here.

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Originally Posted by Soulis

It may be good on the arcade, like you said one of the best arcade racing games. I can enjoy the XBLA version that is arcade perfect (and high-res). But the Saturn version just... it's not the arcade. Far from it. And after playing something like Ridge Racer on the PS1, this felt very bad.

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Daytona may not have looked pretty thanks in part to SEGA being too stupid to put the better 3D hardware Suzuki Yu begged for, partly because it was heavily rushed. BUT, it PLAYED perfectly! It FELT like the arcade game and that was the main thing. CCE may have looked better, but it just lost the arcade feel which is why I was so disappointed with it and the later DC Daytona. It's unfortunate that you had to experience the even uglier, slower PAL version. Don't judge the game by that.

SEGA Rally was friggin' awesome as well. I of course had the JP version which was superior thanks to being 100% complete, unlike the U.S./PAL versions. I am not sure exactly what the difference is though. Daytona CCE was also supposed to be better in Japan as it launched a month late, just as SEGA Rally did. CCE was not developed by AM2 as far as I remember, I always thought that was one of the reasons it failed for me. I was never 100% sure it was made in Japan. Like Sonic R and the fuckin' ugly House of the Dead. Why in the hell SoJ farmed that out overseas, I will never know! Especially after the amazing Virtua Cop conversions!

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Originally Posted by SegaSonic91

Daytona may not have looked pretty thanks in part to SEGA being too stupid to put the better 3D hardware Suzuki Yu begged for, partly because it was heavily rushed. BUT, it PLAYED perfectly! It FELT like the arcade game and that was the main thing. CCE may have looked better, but it just lost the arcade feel which is why I was so disappointed with it and the later DC Daytona. It's unfortunate that you had to experience the even uglier, slower PAL version. Don't judge the game by that.

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Now, im not going to judge Daytona by how it plays. Because so far we judge the N64 racing games by how they look mostly. Likewise, F-Zero X plays like a dream but i try not to bring it up too many times in this discussion, in this particular forum for obvious reasons, even though personally i think it looks great (in motion).

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Originally Posted by spiffyone

Hey, hey now. Beetle Adventure Racing and Excitebike 64 were both exceptionally good. So too was Diddy Kong Racing. Let's not get carried away with the N64 hate here.

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You are 20+ pages late.

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

The only ones that looked even close to matching the Saturn and PS1's best racers were World Driver Championship, Rush, and Wipeout 64

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Ugh, match?

There is nothing on the Saturn that comes even remotely close to World Driver Championship, at least technically. Or Rush 2049.

I believe CCE was developed by the same team behind Sega Rally.

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Originally Posted by SegaSonic91

CCE may have looked better, but it just lost the arcade feel which is why I was so disappointed with it and the later DC Daytona.

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Daytona USA Circuit Edition, released in Japan for the Saturn, has the controls/handling brought back to something closer to the arcade and the arcade music tracks too. IIRC, the frame rate is also a bit smoother than the US release.

IMO Daytona USA Circuit Edition on the Saturn is a really great game.

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Originally Posted by Barone

Daytona USA Circuit Edition, released in Japan for the Saturn, has the controls/handling brought back to something closer to the arcade and the arcade music tracks too. IIRC, the frame rate is also a bit smoother than the US release.

IMO Daytona USA Circuit Edition on the Saturn is a really great game.

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I have Circuit Edition myself and like it quite a bit, but haven't played the NA CCE. Is the handling really that much worse? The JP game has to be a sold 30fps. I just wish they included the music from the first Saturn version.

EDIT: It also plays like a dream with the 3D Pad.

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Originally Posted by zetastrike

I have Circuit Edition myself and like it quite a bit, but haven't played the NA CCE. Is the handling really that much worse?

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Not IMO. It's something you can get used to but it seems to be common excuse to hate CCE. I believe the hatred comes from the music replacement actually.

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Originally Posted by zetastrike

The JP game has to be a sold 30fps. I just wish they included the music from the first Saturn version.

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To be very honest, I think it would be a welcome addition but I really don't see the big deal that was made out of it in order to blame the other versions. Having the original arcade music is good enough for me.
CE is far better than the original game IMO, much closer to the arcade experience. I played it with steering wheel and pedals more than any other game on the Saturn and on the PS1, I really can't complain.
I've seen a couple of YT videos hating on the CCE while the guy was actually using a standard digital controller. SMH.

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Originally Posted by Soulis

Now, im not going to judge Daytona by how it plays. Because so far we judge the N64 racing games for how they look mostly. Likewise, F-Zero X plays like a dream but i try not to bring it up too many times in this discussion.

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Huh? That's just silly. I have read that the N64 racers are ugly AND play badly. Like Crusin' USA. Daytona ugly is different to N64 ugly. Maybe SEGA should have covered the game in fog ;) N64 games are inherently ugly, Saturn and PS1 games were not. Not in the same way.

If I had a scanner I would scan the big 6 page spread that appeared in Die Hard Game Fan when the "Ultra 64" was first shown to the media. They had a demo of the amazing hardware in the system that would "eliminate 100% of popup" due to the machines "special, advanced graphics hardware." There were two pictures; one showing a complex city scape with the "special hardware" (the name of which escapes me) off, showing limited draw distance and then "on" with infinite draw distance. The Crusin' USA hardware was a complete and utter joke when placed next to the mighty 2 year old MODEL2 games, and even Ridge Racer which was not very impressive. The actual N64 hardware was far less impressive than Crusin' USA!

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Originally Posted by gamevet

I believe CCE was developed by the same team behind Sega Rally.

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I am almost positive that AM3 did not do CCE. They would have been working on Manx TT at the time. It's so long ago now though, I could have time lines mixed up. Still, I am *fairly* certain that AM3 did not do CCE. I think it was developed more for the overseas market than Japan.

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Originally Posted by SegaSonic91

Huh? That's just silly. I have read that the N64 racers are ugly AND play badly. Like Crusin' USA. Daytona ugly is different to N64 ugly. Maybe SEGA should have covered the game in fog ;) N64 games are inherently ugly, Saturn and PS1 games were not. Not in the same way.

If I had a scanner I would scan the big 6 page spread that appeared in Die Hard Game Fan when the "Ultra 64" was first shown to the media. They had a demo of the amazing hardware in the system that would "eliminate 100% of popup" due to the machines "special, advanced graphics hardware." There were two pictures; one showing a complex city scape with the "special hardware" (the name of which escapes me) off, showing limited draw distance and then "on" with infinite draw distance. The Crusin' USA hardware was a complete and utter joke when placed next to the mighty 2 year old MODEL2 games, and even Ridge Racer which was not very impressive. The actual N64 hardware was far less impressive than Crusin' USA!

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Don't believe what you read.

I also read magazines and remember the hype. The N64 is no match for the arcade board that runs Cruisin USA. All that hype was indeed unjustified. But the arcade itself wasn't that great either IMO so i didn't care. The reason i bought the N64 early was some Doom 64 previews (Doom was my favorite game after all) and ,ofc, Mario 64.

Daytona on the Saturn was also not a match for the arcade version but it was a better game overall than N64 Cruisin because the arcade game itself is better than the arcade version of Cruisin USA. Even if the N64 game was arcade perfect, it wouldn't be a great game IMO.

N64 Cruisin USA is an ugly beast but thankfully it does not represent the visual or gameplay quality of N64 racing games in general which is much higher than, say, its fighting games. And that quality is higher than what the genre has to offer on the Saturn IMO. Also, a few N64 racing games do indeed look like they have "eliminated the pop-up" or at least they are close. Cruis'n Series is not in the list of these games.

Heh, I bought Crusin' USA with my N64 simply because I was desperate for a more than one game with the thing. I should have bought Shadows of the Empire. I think I went for Crusin because it was $79.95 compared to Empire's $129.95 price tag. Empire was a great game from what I remember of it from when I hired it when I first got the N64. Can't really remember what the other non M64 launch games were. To think I paid $599 for the N64, what a waste!

Later games used tricks to make it look like there was less popup, I agree. It was not trully eliminating popup though. I personally think that the Saturns racers are better, but I am not the biggest fan of the N64 or Western "Outrun wannabe" racers or boring sim racers. Apart from Ocarina of Time (FAR, FAR from the best game ever), the only other N64 game I remember really enjoying were the Ganbare Goemon games. The first was pretty ugly but was far better than say, the PS1 3D effort. The second was probably the best Ganbare Goemon of the era and better than the PS1 versions. In saying that, even the nintendo masters at KONAMI could not make the N64 look good. Whereas they managed masterpieces like MGS on the PS1. Maybe the N64 was the MEGADRIVE of the 32-BIT era as far as they were concerned. They did screw over Saturn fans too, more than once.

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Originally Posted by Kamahl

Why the heck not?

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The gameplay changes not for the better and I don't like the graphics either when playing Outrun at 60 fps on the Saturn

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I am almost positive that AM3 did not do CCE

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The CS Consumer Team handle the port of Sega Rally to the Saturn also also made Daytona CCE themself's

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Originally Posted by SegaSonic91

Heh, I bought Crusin' USA with my N64 simply because I was desperate for a more than one game with the thing. I should have bought Shadows of the Empire. I think I went for Crusin because it was $79.95 compared to Empire's $129.95 price tag. Empire was a great game from what I remember of it from when I hired it when I first got the N64. Can't really remember what the other non M64 launch games were. To think I paid $599 for the N64, what a waste!

Later games used tricks to make it look like there was less popup, I agree. It was not trully eliminating popup though. I personally think that the Saturns racers are better, but I am not the biggest fan of the N64 or Western "Outrun wannabe" racers or boring sim racers. Apart from Ocarina of Time (FAR, FAR from the best game ever), the only other N64 game I remember really enjoying were the Ganbare Goemon games. The first was pretty ugly but was far better than say, the PS1 3D effort. The second was probably the best Ganbare Goemon of the era and better than the PS1 versions. In saying that, even the nintendo masters at KONAMI could not make the N64 look good. Whereas they managed masterpieces like MGS on the PS1. Maybe the N64 was the MEGADRIVE of the 32-BIT era as far as they were concerned. They did screw over Saturn fans too, more than once.

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Where did you live at? Those prices are beyond absurd!

Cruis'n USA's graphics definitely disappointed compared to the arcade version, and yeah, that was something people criticized the system for early on, yes. People who thought that the N64 would be able to replicate that arcade game, and KI 2 (in KI Gold) as well, were disappointed. Still, the game is fun, but simple and short. I defend the series, and the hate is certainly hugely overstated, but might have been disappointed had I spent a lot for it, just on a cost versus time played basis. World and Exotica on N64 do a lot more to add content, which makes them a much better value than the first game even if the gameplay is similar. But today though, Cruis'n USA is more than fun enough to be worth a few bucks... it's an average game, but not THAT bad.

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Originally Posted by Da_Shocker

Where did you live at? Those prices are beyond absurd!

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Australia, it looks like. Their money has a different value, but even beyond that things are generally expensive, at least for gaming, clearly...

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

Cruis'n USA's graphics definitely disappointed compared to the arcade version, and yeah, that was something people criticized the system for early on, yes. People who thought that the N64 would be able to replicate that arcade game, and KI 2 (in KI Gold) as well, were disappointed.

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In fairness, Nintendo themselves were hyping that level of performance. I remember talking to a Game Counselor sometime around 1994-1995 and being told that the quality of the N64's graphics would be comparable to this commercial:



Obviously, that wasn't so.

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

Cruis'n USA's graphics definitely disappointed compared to the arcade version, and yeah, that was something people criticized the system for early on, yes. People who thought that the N64 would be able to replicate that arcade game, and KI 2 (in KI Gold) as well, were disappointed.

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The arcade hardware behind Killer Instinct is not really above the N64 per se. The CPU is very similar; of the same family and generation, with a bigger L1 cache but that's not a big deal. The issue is just data. The arcade game has a hard drive connected which stores the graphics data (the rest of the game is on normal ROM chips). I'm not sure the size of that hard drive but obviously it would be much larger than an 8MB cartridge. I don't think the arcade hardware even has a GPU at all, it just uses software rendering with pre-rendered images AFAIK.

I honestly think Cruis'n USA wasn't that bad of a port. The draw distance is shorter, but otherwise it doesn't look bad. Thing is, the arcade game was two years old, so a "not bad" port was not exactly impressive. It doesn't exactly look like a great leap from the racing games on Playstation and Saturn at the time. Also I never liked the game to begin with. :p

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

Who cares if it's a hidden bonus track or not? It's a new track. One of only seven in the game. That's a significant amount of content when you're talking about so few tracks.

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And many people may never see it as it's a hidden track. Wipeout 64 is just an N64 port of Wipeout XL with some tracks from the first game. If we can't include the Saturn ports of Wipeout or Wipeout XL, then you can't include the N64 port either. Let's not make exceptions for the N64 but stick to this rigid rules for the Saturn.

Also, I wouldn't say "gimped", I would say "improved". I know about the shaved corners, etc, I just think that making the game slightly easier made it better. As I said in my last post, it's still a very hard game, you just don't need to almost stop at some corners anymore, you just need to learn all the airbraking perfectly.

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

And N64 games as well. The N64 lost just as many games to this as the Saturn did, or more.

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And it's no coincidence that this rule happens to exclude all of the Saturn's A-Tier racers. :roll:

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

... Flip-flop? What? "true exclusives only" is a very consistent rule with no flip-flopping involved.

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Yet you make exceptions for N64 ports of PS1 and Saturn racers to count even though they're just mirrored ports, but a PC port no one gives a shit about is enough to disqualify the Saturn's best racers.

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

First, as I said, Daytona USA for PC works on my computer, which is from the late '00s. It's not some game you need a 15-year-old computer to run. And second, a game is a game. Why should a game suddenly be taken away from existence just because it has some kind of issue that makes it harder to get running? As a PC-focused gamer in the '90s, the basic concept of what you say here is ludicrous! When you have issues running a game, you figure out what those issues are and try to fix them. You don't pretend that the game doesn't exist.

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That's great it works on your shitty 10 year old PC. Many people running MODERN PCs have trouble running it. Finally, I really don't give a shit about the old PC ports of Sega's racers. They're pretty much 1:1 ports of what was on the Saturn, low framerates and draw distances included. There's no benefit to playing them over the Saturn, and if anything they're worse due to compatibility issues and poor controls. Bringing them up to disqualify Saturn racers is nothing but a cheap shot to take away the toughest competition the N64 has when comparing the libraries. You do it all the time and it's pathetic to watch you stretch and make up rules.

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

[Insert weak defense for petty rules here]

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How about this, instead of making up rules to discount the best stuff on the Saturn so the N64 doesn't have to compete with it, we just say "If it's on the system it counts." We compare 5th generation to 5th generation. Later console ports and PC ports don't matter. All that matters is how each consoles library stacks up in comparison to each other.

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

I would never make a list designed to produce a certain result

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Says the person who calls Virtua Fighter a 2.5D fighter so he doesn't have to worry about comparing it to the N64's 3D Fighters.

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

This is a really crazy thing to say! Have you ever played even half of those games? If you had, there's no way you'd be seriously comparing them to boring, subpar games like Impact Racing. Yes, I have that game for Saturn. It's thoroughly forgettable.

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Just as the ones you've brought up for the N64 are completely forgettable. Only delusional N64 fanboys like yourself still talk highly of those games.

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

I don't think too much of some of the Saturn games in your list, either -- Touge? Wangan Dead Heat? Sega Touring Car? Sure, I haven't played much of those games, but my first impressions with them were not great; average perhaps, but not much above that. I don't care for the first Need for Speed game either, on your list below, or Road Rash as well (of course, I don't much like the Genesis Road Rash games either). Street Racer... I have it for SNES and PS1, I actually like the SNES version more than PS1. It is a good game on SNES though. Manx TT is disappointing and needs content, even if it plays okay. The rest of the games you list I like more, but I like the N64's library more overall.

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Togue King the Spirits isn't bad. It's a pretty fun and quality racer. Touring Car I actually enjoy and find better than Sega Rally. It's only fault is the unstable frame rate. With the Analog controller it actually plays really well. Throw in the Avex Trax and it has a style like nothing on the N64. As for ManxTT, it's a solid Arcade port. It has the same amount of content as the Arcade, you can't fault it for that.

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

No, it wouldn't. In Tony Hawk, you go around an arena and try to score points within the time limit. There is no racing. But 1080 and, I presume, Steep Slope Sliers do have racing. Yes, they also have stunt modes, but that isn't the whole game, or at least it isn't for 1080. And that's fortunate, because I've never liked the 1080 or Tony Hawk style of stunt game; I like the 1080 games for the racing, not the stunts.

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The whole game isn't racing either. So the game shouldn't be thrown in as racers either. They're snowboarding/Extreme sports games and should be treated as such. It doesn't matter what you personally want to cherry pick out of them. All that matters is what the general consensus on them is.

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

This question is based on the belief that Sega's racing games are unmatched, though, and I don't believe that. They are really great, but they aren't the ONLY really great racing games from the time. My opinion here is quite different from yours, but remember, it's all just opinion, for both of us.

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They may not be, but compared to what you always parade out for the N64 Daytona, Sega Rally, or Touring Car can easily beat them, and the Saturn has all three of them. Heck even compared to stuff like Rush and Cruisin' the N64 has a hard time beating Daytona, Sega Rally, and Touring car.

F-Zero definitely is a win for the N64. There's nothing on the PS1 or Saturn that comes close to that. Diddy Kong Racing and Mariokart 64 I'd also consider wins for the N64. Sonic R is good, but those two N64 games were the Kart racers of the generation. And Waverace is unmatched. However that's about where the N64's racing superiority ends. Sure it may have more, but none of them hold a candle to what the Saturn has if we allow it to bring it's A game.

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

And now we're back to where we started, you seeming to fail to understand that not everyone's eyes work the same way. I watched the video a bunch of times, to the result I described.

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Then I return to my original statement. I'm sorry to hear that you have brain damage.

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Originally Posted by Kamahl

If only Daytona USA CCE had a better draw distance. It's beyond terrible. You can see that the track just... stops existing in certain parts. Horrible.

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I think that has to do with it using the Sega Rally Engine. It's just not designed for tracks with big open spaces like the Beginner track in Daytona. In the Canyon stages that issues not as noticeable. Also to be fair, the Arcades Draw distance isn't too great either. There's some noticeable pop up there too. Now compared to the original Saturn port it's a huge difference, but compared to CE it's not that big of a leap.

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Originally Posted by Soulis

Ugh, match?

There is nothing on the Saturn that comes even remotely close to World Driver Championship, at least technically. Or Rush 2049.

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It looks pretty slow and boring to me. Yeah graphically it's pretty, but that's about it. Let's compare gameplay shall we?:







Which looks the most fun and exciting with a great sense of speed? It's not World Driver Championship. There's nothing that irritates me more with Racing games than when you have the throttle fully open and it feels like you're barely moving.

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

Togue King the Spirits isn't bad. It's a pretty fun and quality racer. Touring Car I actually enjoy and find better than Sega Rally. It's only fault is the unstable frame rate. With the Analog controller it actually plays really well. Throw in the Avex Trax and it has a style like nothing on the N64. As for ManxTT, it's a solid Arcade port. It has the same amount of content as the Arcade, you can't fault it for that.

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What?!

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

Which looks the most fun and exciting with a great sense of speed? It's not World Driver Championship. There's nothing that irritates me more with Racing games than when you have the throttle fully open and it feels like you're barely moving.

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Wait, so far every criticism about N64 racers was about graphics... At which point we started discussing about games that are faster paced of more fun to play? I missed that sorry (didn't read all posts).

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Originally Posted by SegaSonic91

I think I went for Crusin because it was $79.95 compared to Empire's $129.95 price tag. Empire was a great game from what I remember of it from when I hired it when I first got the N64. Can't really remember what the other non M64 launch games were. To think I paid $599 for the N64, what a waste!.

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I don't know where you live but anything with these prices would be a waste. In Greece, i bought the N64 at launch with Mario 64 (that i had to pay separately) for less than 100.000 drachmas which was around 350 dollars, more or less. When Turok was released it was the most expensive game and i paid the equivalent of 90 dollars. Star Wars was much lower than that.

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Originally Posted by gamevet

What?!

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With an analog controller it actually plays pretty well. I enjoy racers that have a looser feel to them, which Touring car has over Rally. Rally is definitely the better made port, but I find Touring Car more fun to play.

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Originally Posted by Soulis

Wait, so far every criticism about N64 racers was about graphics... At which point we started discussing about games that are faster paced of more fun to play? I missed that sorry (didn't read all posts).

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We didn't. He changed topics in order to attack a game he admits he's never played. That sure is a way to get people to take you seriously, yup!

Also, of course, World Driver Championship is a sim, a completely different subgenre of racing from Sega Touring Car. WDC and GT2 are not comparable to Sega Touring Car, they are doing very different things.

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Originally Posted by Da_Shocker

Where did you live at? Those prices are beyond absurd!

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Australia is the enemy of anyone that enjoys games.

Yeah the prices look higher than they are but they generally get awful luck for games.

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

We didn't. He changed topics in order to attack a game he admits he's never played. That sure is a way to get people to take you seriously, yup!

Also, of course, World Driver Championship is a sim, a completely different subgenre of racing from Sega Touring Car. WDC and GT2 are not comparable to Sega Touring Car, they are doing very different things.

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Sega Touring car does have some sim elements though. It's probably one of the closest comparisons on the Saturn as to my knowledge there never really was a true driving sim made for the system. But even with that, GT2 still looks faster and more fun than WDC. I wasn't saying Touring Car was better than both GT2 and WDC. I was saying WDC looked boring and generic when compared to Touring Car and GT2. The Saturn and PS1 examples are what I would consider bringing the A game for both systems.

And I was never giving a shit about graphics when it came to comparing the racing libraries. We're comparing 5th gen 3D for crying out loud. They all look like shit by today's standards. I was talking about gameplay and overall quality when it comes to the racers, which I thought we were dicussing here. Or were you seriously making the argument that the N64's racing library was superior based soley on quantity and how pretty they all looked?

As for talking about games you haven't played, I actually have played quite a few of those racers you've brought up for the N64. Not each and every one, but a lot of them. I'll give you a hint on my opinion of them. I still play the racers I talk about on the Saturn to this day. I haven't played those N64 racers since I rented them 15+ years ago. Want to take a guess as to why that may be?

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

Want to take a guess as to why that may be?

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No need to, you've made it very clear that you obsessively love Daytona USA, Sega Rally, and Sega Touring Car, and cannot possibly understand how anyone else could like other games more. It's incredibly ironic that you would call other people "delusional fanboys" (not to mention the other, worse insults and numerous false statements you've made) when you yourself are a massive fanboy of those games... there's nothing wrong with loving a game, just try to understand that other people like other games just as much!

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

No need to, you've made it very clear that you obsessively love Daytona USA, Sega Rally, and Sega Touring Car, and cannot possibly understand how anyone else could like other games more. It's incredibly ironic that you would call other people "delusional fanboys" (not to mention the other, worse insults and numerous false statements you've made) when you yourself are a massive fanboy of those games... there's nothing wrong with loving a game, just try to understand that other people like other games just as much!

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I can understand people liking other games as I like other racers on other systems too, including some of the N64 ones you've brought up. However most people agree that there's a certain quality that the best racers of that generation had. When you look at stuff like Daytona USA, Sega Rally, the Ridge Racer series, Gran Turismo, etc. on the PS1 and Saturn, there's few games if any on the N64 that are on that level. Thats the argument myself and others keep trying to explain to you. You're comparing C and B Tier Racers to A Tier racers and trying to tell us they're better because they're on the N64. If those racers were on the Saturn or PS1 where they had to compete with the likes of Daytona, Sega Rally, Touring car, Gran Turismo, Ridge Racer, TOCA, etc. they wouldn't be taking any of those racers places on the top racer lists of those systems.

There's a reason Daytona USA, Sega Rally, Gran Turismo, Ridge Racer, Sega Touring Car, Wipeout, TOCA, etc. are all still spoken highly of by a large number of people to this day, There's a reason Daytona USA is still raking in money in arcades. Yet the only people speaking highly of those N64 racers are you and a few other N64 fanboys.

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

There's a reason Daytona USA, Sega Rally, Gran Turismo, Ridge Racer, Sega Touring Car, Wipeout, TOCA, etc. are all still spoken highly of by a large number of people to this day, There's a reason Daytona USA is still raking in money in arcades. Yet the only people speaking highly of those N64 racers are you and a few other N64 fanboys.

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Maybe it's because all these games are made by high profile developers and were successful in arcades (arcades used to be the state of the art you know). When someone talks about these games, they mostly talk about the arcade versions (excluding Wipeout and Gran Turismo obviously). When someone mentions the name "Daytona USA" it's the arcade that comes to mind. That disease infested, disgusting blob on the Saturn is NOT Daytona USA.

All these Saturn games you mention became successful on the arcades. But it's not like you had a Model 2 in your home, if you did then i'm not arguing, the N64 would never compete with that!. But you had a Saturn and you had to deal with inferior versions that looked like shit. Gameplay was also inferior because of the slower frame rates. At least, the good N64 racers were originally made with the N64 in mind and designed for that console only.

And maybe this will sound fanboyish to you and hard to grasp, but i enjoy racing games more on the N64 than on Saturn. I'd say it's about on par with the PS1 for me.

Daytona USA hasn't had a sequel since the 1997. 2001 if you count the Dreamcast port. Sega also ignored it for over a decade until the PSN/XBLA port. That didn't stop people from still holding it in high regards decades later.

Yes, the Saturn ports weren't 1:1 model 2 ports. But they still played better than most of what you guys have brought up for the N64. As for lower frame rates, the N64's racers aren't that great in that department you know. The only 60fps one I know of is F-Zero X. All the others are in the same ballpark as the Saturn and PS1. So complaining about Saturn ports being cut down to 30fps isn't really that much of an argument when there's no N64 racers other than F-Zero X doing any better.

And calling Saturn Daytona USA a disgusting blob is a bit fanboyish. Even the original port at 20fps with horrendous pop up still plays like the Arcade. But why limit ourselves to that version when there's the Japanese Circuit Edition we can bring into the mix. That version has the arcade style gameplay restored, the arcade music restored, and even the original car style restored. Side by side we can see that version's draw distance is pretty darn close to the Arcade game's draw distance too:

I'm glad Trekkies at least stated that games like Wave Race, Diddy Kong Racing, Mario Kart 64, etc. were "wins" for N64.

And that's what it boils down to, IMHO.

Saturn: Sega Rally, Touring Car, Daytona CE
vs.
PS1: Gran Turismo 2, Crash Team Racing, Ridge Racer R4
vs.
N64: Diddy Kong Racing, Mario Kart 64, Beetle Adventure Racing

Gotta give the win to PS1. Wider range of racing than the competition among the top three games.