The N64 Mythology

NiGHTS has fly-into-the-screen segments. Calling it a side-scrolling game is a bit ignorant.

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

NiGHTS is a side-scrolling game, so what's the point of mentioning it? Side-view games don't need to render very far ahead.

Anyway, Turok 1 released in February 1997. What were the best and best-looking FPSes available on PS1 and Saturn up to that point? Doom (PS1), PowerSlave (PS1, SAT), Alien Trilogy (PS1, SAT), Disruptor (PS1) stuff like that? On Jaguar and 3DO you could also possibly mention Doom and AvP on Jaguar and Cyberdillo and Killing Time on 3DO, and Wolf 3D on both, etc.?

None of those games have fully polygonal enemies, I don't think.

Few of those games have fully 3d worlds, and none have levels on the scale of Turok's.

Most have levels made up of only right-angles, Doom/Wolf 3D style.

Few let you jump (Killing Time's jetpack is noteworthy here, and you can jump in Powerslave, but not much else).

Etc.

And then here comes Turok, with a fully 3d polygonal world to explore, swimming, jumping, polygonal enemies, exploration, things to collect, and more... the game pushed the genre forward in very real ways. PowerSlave (Saturn ver.) might be the next-closest thing, but Turok's clearly on a level above it in scale, and graphics (polygonal enemies, more detailed and larger environments, etc.). The cost of all that was the draw distance, but you quickly get used to it, it's not a problem any more than the draw distance in the first Saturn version of Daytona USA is, and I love that version of the game worst graphics or no (it might be my favorite of the three Saturn versions, in fact...).

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Let's stop lying to ourselves. Quake and other PC shooters pushed the genre forward, not Turok. Turok simply rides in on Quake's coat tails. It doesn't really do anything that Quake didn't do before it.

And seeing as how there's so few FPS games on the Saturn, especially around when it launched, I think light gun games like Virtua Cop are fair to use.

And all those FPS's you listed on the Saturn and PS1 have better draw distances than Turok. Who gives a shit if the enemies are polygonal if you can't freaking see more than a few feet in front of you?

Lets remember that the fps Ghen War on Sega Saturn offered fully polygonal enviroments and enemies. It was released in september 1995. Sure, the enviroments are more simplistic than Turoks, but still, it did the fully polygonal graphics on a FPS about a year and a half before Turok.

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Originally Posted by saturndual32

Lets remember that the fps Ghen War on Sega Saturn offered fully polygonal enviroments and enemies. It was released in september 1995. Sure, the enviroments are more simplistic than Turoks, but still, it did the fully polygonal graphics on a FPS about a year and a half before Turok.

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I always forget about that one. But yeah it does a lot of what ABF is praising Turok for doing, and it's draw distance I'd say is a little better too.

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

Let's stop lying to ourselves. Quake and other PC shooters pushed the genre forward, not Turok. Turok simply rides in on Quake's coat tails. It doesn't really do anything that Quake didn't do before it.

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I'm sure Turok took inspiration from Quake, yeah, but Turok 1 was originally supposed to release in September 1996: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turok:_...er#Development and Quake released in June 1996, so the game has to have started development before Quake released. Also Quake doesn't have Turok's style of mixing platforming, exploration, and shooting -- it's a pure shooter, as all of id's FPSes were.

[quote]And seeing as how there's so few FPS games on the Saturn, especially around when it launched, I think light gun games like Virtua Cop are fair to use.

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And all those FPS's you listed on the Saturn and PS1 have better draw distances than Turok. Who gives a shit if the enemies are polygonal if you can't freaking see more than a few feet in front of you?

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You can see as far as you need to, and again, the far more detailed environments and polygonal character models in Turok came at a draw-distance cost. Also, ALL of those games have a better draw distance than Turok? I don't think so...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_-gtRiso_Y Close draw distance here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRyBadLUwOA Not worse, I don't think.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6R_yql_LTTk If this is better than Turok's draw distance, it's not by much.
Etc.

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Originally Posted by Zz Badnusty

NiGHTS has fly-into-the-screen segments. Calling it a side-scrolling game is a bit ignorant.

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I've beaten Nights, it's a great game, but anything other than side-scrolling takes up a miniscule percentage of the game; yeah, I guess it has a few little behind-the-character flying bits, and there are those ground parts where you run to the thing to become NiGHTS 3d platformer style, but if you're playing the game correctly you almost never see the 3d platformer side of the game (which makes me wonder why it's in the game at all, i kind of wish they had fleshed it out more or not included it at all, but it's a great game as it is, so whatever), it's pretty much a sidescroller.

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Originally Posted by saturndual32

Lets remember that the fps Ghen War on Sega Saturn offered fully polygonal enviroments and enemies. It was released in september 1995. Sure, the enviroments are more simplistic than Turoks, but still, it did the fully polygonal graphics on a FPS about a year and a half before Turok.

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Hmm... is that a FPS? Good point to mention it, but you do control a mech in that game even if it mostly controls like a FPS. Like, I don't know if I'd call BattleCorps for Sega CD a FPS either because you control a mech in that game too, and that's maybe even more like a FPS in gameplay than Ghen War is. It's kind of a FPS, but the style of gameplay isn't quite the same as one where you play as a person, it's slower and more deliberate as fitting the mech theme.

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

I always forget about that one. But yeah it does a lot of what ABF is praising Turok for doing, and it's draw distance I'd say is a little better too.

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No way, Ghen War's draw distance is too close... and its environments are quite simple too, nowhere near Turok's levels of complexity.

Ghen War: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_eWjS3fWdw (Turok video link in last post)

Regardless of nitpicks about which of these games has the slightly longer draw distance, all have popup fairly close to the player. None let you see out to the horizon or something like that.

Imagine if he put such passion into something that actually matters.....

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

You can see as far as you need to, and again, the far more detailed environments and polygonal character models in Turok came at a draw-distance cost. Also, ALL of those games have a better draw distance than Turok? I don't think so...

[insert different examples than what he originally mentioned]

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Meahwhile:





Just because you see Fog doesn't mean the draw distance is the same as Turok's. Turok's fog is pretty much a few feet from your face. You can't seen anything unless it's a few feet in front of you. It's pathetic and horrible.

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

I've beaten Nights, it's a great game, but anything other than side-scrolling takes up a miniscule percentage of the game; yeah, I guess it has a few little behind-the-character flying bits, and there are those ground parts where you run to the thing to become NiGHTS 3d platformer style, but if you're playing the game correctly you almost never see the 3d platformer side of the game (which makes me wonder why it's in the game at all, i kind of wish they had fleshed it out more or not included it at all, but it's a great game as it is, so whatever), it's pretty much a sidescroller.

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From the genius who told us Virtua Fighter is a 2.5D Fighter and pales in comparison to real 3D Fighters like Toshinden everyone...

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

Hmm... is that a FPS? Good point to mention it, but you do control a mech in that game even if it mostly controls like a FPS. Like, I don't know if I'd call BattleCorps for Sega CD a FPS either because you control a mech in that game too, and that's maybe even more like a FPS in gameplay than Ghen War is. It's kind of a FPS, but the style of gameplay isn't quite the same as one where you play as a person, it's slower and more deliberate as fitting the mech theme.

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I knew you were going to say that. "It's a mech a game so it doesn't count hurr durr!" Quit moving goal posts and making up stupid rules nonsense rules no one else follows or gives a shit about. Ghen War is an FPS, plain and simple.

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

No way, Ghen War's draw distance is too close... and its environments are quite simple too, nowhere near Turok's levels of complexity.

Ghen War: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_eWjS3fWdw (Turok video link in last post)

Regardless of nitpicks about which of these games has the slightly longer draw distance, all have popup fairly close to the player. None let you see out to the horizon or something like that.

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You're confusing darkness with draw distance. Take a look at the brighter later levels. The draw distance is certainly better than Turok's. It's still not amazing, but it's definitely better than Turok.

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

Anyway, Turok 1 released in February 1997. What were the best and best-looking FPSes available on PS1 and Saturn up to that point? Doom (PS1), PowerSlave (PS1, SAT), Alien Trilogy (PS1, SAT), Disruptor (PS1) stuff like that? On Jaguar and 3DO you could also possibly mention Doom and AvP on Jaguar and Cyberdillo and Killing Time on 3DO, and Wolf 3D on both, etc.?

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Shadows of the Empire could be played in first person, and had full 3D levels and polygonal enemies.

NiGHTs was really a "2.5D" type game, where the main game play levels were a side view on rails.

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

Meahwhile:

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Cyberdillo and Disruptor are in the list in the post you responded to. You might want to read the list before claiming I was linking videos of about games I hadn't mentioned when actually the games I linked were on my list. I chose those two because Disruptor is one of the newer, more complex (in level designs), and better-looking pre-Turok PS1 FPSes, and Cyberdillo pushed the 3DO pretty hard (it and Killing Time are the only 3DO FPSes which are actually in full 3d worlds, I think). For one for Saturn, PowerSlave: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdCLcWF6uck

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Doom is of course one of the classics, but the issue here is polygon counts, that's why fog exists. Doom isn't entirely 3d, that raycasting engine can't put paths on top of paths, corners are sharp angles, the polygon count is low, and uses a lot of sprites. It's a simpler style that the consoles of the time could handle more easily than a fully-3d game like Turok. Also, PS1 Doom uses the redesigned (simplified) Jaguar level maps that are simple enough to fit into console memory.

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Sure, a nice example of how by making everything quite low-poly you could do a decent draw distance even in ~'95-'96.

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Just because you see Fog doesn't mean the draw distance is the same as Turok's. Turok's fog is pretty much a few feet from your face. You can't seen anything unless it's a few feet in front of you. It's pathetic and horrible.

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Almost all FPSes on the PS1, Saturn, Jaguar, and 3DO from 1993-1996 have fairly close draw distances. You exaggerate how close Turok's fog is, look at those videos I linked again -- games like Disruptor are barely any better. When trying to do more than a Doom or Wolfenstein 3D-style game, console FPSes of that time couldn't do it without a close draw distance.

If you're saying that you think they should have cut back on Turok's graphics in order to push back the draw distance, I just don't agree, I like how great the game looks and think that you can see far enough for the needs of the game. Turok 1 does have some issues -- first-person jumping puzzles can be frustrating, save points can be too far apart, maybe some more -- but the fog isn't one of the bigger ones.

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From the genius who told us Virtua Fighter is a 2.5D Fighter and pales in comparison to real 3D Fighters like Toshinden everyone...

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Unrelated insults, always a good way to prove your point, huh.

Something like 99% of NiGHTS is a side-view platformer as long as you are playing the game correctly (ie, and aren't wandering around on the ground for no reason).

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I knew you were going to say that. "It's a mech a game so it doesn't count hurr durr!" Quit moving goal posts and making up stupid rules nonsense rules no one else follows or gives a shit about. Ghen War is an FPS, plain and simple.

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It's true, though, FPSes usually mean games where you play as a person and not a vehicle. Mechwarrior isn't a FPS, for example. Do you call Battlezone and Spectre FPSes? There is a line somewhere between FPS and vehicular action or simulation game.

I didn't say Ghen War doesn't count at all, though. I'd forgotten that the game has polygonal enemies. There may be other vehicular combat games from that era that also have polygonal enemies. The PS1 and Saturn versions of MechWarrior 2 released at about the same time as Turok for N64, for example. That game has fully polygonal mechs. I wouldn't count it as being quite the same thing.

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You're confusing darkness with draw distance. Take a look at the brighter later levels. The draw distance is certainly better than Turok's. It's still not amazing, but it's definitely better than Turok.

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Which later levels? Link videos if there are some.

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Originally Posted by Gentlegamer

Shadows of the Empire could be played in first person, and had full 3D levels and polygonal enemies.

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Good point! I mostly think of it as a third-person shooter, but it does have a first-person mode, yes.

The game is another case showing how you can get a better draw distance than Turok at that point if you don't have quite as good graphics, also. The game has fog, but not as close as Turok... but the cost is it doesn't look nearly as good.

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NiGHTs was really a "2.5D" type game, where the main game play levels were a side view on rails.

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Indeed. That's what I said as well.

Hmmm Barone lol thorough post I will say this though Nintendo made shit popular. I have never heard anything about PDZ using dual mission sticks. I only heard tht it would maybe be a feature in Virtual On not even sure if that ever happened.

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

It's true, though, FPSes usually mean games where you play as a person and not a vehicle. Mechwarrior isn't a FPS, for example. Do you call Battlezone and Spectre FPSes? There is a line somewhere between FPS and vehicular action or simulation game.

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"First Person" is the viewpoint/perspective the player sees the game from. As in, from the "eyes" of the character (human/alien/robot//vehicle/whatever) you control. And I say "eyes" because even if you control a vehicle that's on its own with no pilot, it has to have a camera somewhere on it so it can see where it's going, right? You'd be seeing through that camera, and thus, still in First Person. You don't need a "person" to play in First Person perspective.

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

Cyberdillo and Disruptor are in the list in the post you responded to. You might want to read the list before claiming I was linking videos of about games I hadn't mentioned when actually the games I linked were on my list. I chose those two because Disruptor is one of the newer, more complex (in level designs), and better-looking pre-Turok PS1 FPSes, and Cyberdillo pushed the 3DO pretty hard (it and Killing Time are the only 3DO FPSes which are actually in full 3d worlds, I think). For one for Saturn, PowerSlave: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdCLcWF6uck

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You chose those two because they fit your narrative. Powerslave and Doom have significantly better draw distances and disproves your argument.

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

Doom isn't entirely 3d, that raycasting engine can't put paths on top of paths, corners are sharp angles, the polygon count is low, and uses a lot of sprites. It's a simpler style that the consoles of the time could handle more easily than a fully-3d game like Turok. Also, PS1 Doom uses the redesigned (simplified) Jaguar level maps that are simple enough to fit into console memory.

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I could be wrong but didn't they rework Doom to use Polygons on the PS1 for better performance? I know they did that for Duke Nukem 3D and Powerslave on the Saturn.

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

Sure, a nice example of how by making everything quite low-poly you could do a deecnt draw distance even in ~'95-'96.

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Turok doesn't have very high polygon counts either you know...

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

Almost all FPSes on the PS1, Saturn, Jaguar, and 3DO from 1993-1996 have fairly close draw distances. You exaggerate how close Turok's fog is, look at those videos I linked again -- games like Disruptor are barely any better. When trying to do more than a Doom or Wolfenstein 3D-style game, console FPSes of that time couldn't do it without a close draw distance.

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Doom, Powerslave, Duke Nukem 3D, Quake, Hexen, Jumping Flash, etc. all have substantially better draw dsitances than Turok. Turok's fog is pretty bad.

As for Disruptor, why don't we actually look at a better level and not one cherrypicked by you:

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

If you're saying that you think they should have cut back on Turok's graphics in order to push back the draw distance, I just don't agree, I like how great the game looks and think that you can see far enough for the needs of the game. Turok 1 does have some issues -- first-person jumping puzzles can be frustrating, save points can be too far apart, maybe some more -- but the fog isn't one of the bigger ones.

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I'd be fine with 2D enemies if it meant I could see more than a few feet in front of my face. The jumping puzzles would probably be far less frustrating if the draw distance was better too.

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

Unrelated insults, always a good way to prove your point, huh.

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You said stupid things then, and you still say stupid things now. That was the point.

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

Something like 99% of NiGHTS is a side-view platformer as long as you are playing the game correctly (ie, and aren't wandering around on the ground for no reason).

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Maybe I want to explore the levels? And that still ignores the non-sidescrolling flight sections.

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

It's true, though, FPSes usually mean games where you play as a person and not a vehicle. Mechwarrior isn't a FPS, for example. Do you call Battlezone and Spectre FPSes? There is a line somewhere between FPS and vehicular action or simulation game.

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If you take way the Mech Hud does Mech Warrior look any different from any other FPS? Does Ghen War? The answer is no, they don't. So yes, I'd say they count in this comparison.

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

I didn't say Ghen War doesn't count at all, though. I'd forgotten that the game has polygonal enemies. There may be other vehicular combat games from that era that also have polygonal enemies. The PS1 and Saturn versions of MechWarrior 2 released at about the same time as Turok for N64, for example. That game has fully polygonal mechs. I wouldn't count it as being quite the same thing.

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Keep moving the goal posts.

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

Which later levels? Link videos if there are some.

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Here you go:


Skip to around the 4:30 mark.

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Originally Posted by Da_Shocker

Hmmm Barone lol thorough post I will say this though Nintendo made shit popular. I have never heard anything about PDZ using dual mission sticks. I only heard tht it would maybe be a feature in Virtual On not even sure if that ever happened.

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You're confusing the Mission Stick with the Twin Stick. Mission Stick's can be combined together to have dual analog flight Stick. Panzer Dragoon Zwei makes use of this (it can also use the mouse). Virtual On is designed to use the Twin Stick. It's two physical sticks but they're entirely digital. In fact the Twin Stick is read as a standard controller. The Right stick actually maps to A,B,C,X,Y,Z, etc.

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

You chose those two because they fit your narrative. Powerslave and Doom have significantly better draw distances and disproves your argument.



I could be wrong but didn't they rework Doom to use Polygons on the PS1 for better performance? I know they did that for Duke Nukem 3D and Powerslave on the Saturn.



Turok doesn't have very high polygon counts either you know...



Doom, Powerslave, Duke Nukem 3D, Quake, Hexen, Jumping Flash, etc. all have substantially better draw dsitances than Turok. Turok's fog is pretty bad.

As for Disruptor, why don't we actually look at a better level and not one cherrypicked by you:





I'd be fine with 2D enemies if it meant I could see more than a few feet in front of my face. The jumping puzzles would probably be far less frustrating if the draw distance was better too.



You said stupid things then, and you still say stupid things now. That was the point.



Maybe I want to explore the levels? And that still ignores the non-sidescrolling flight sections.



If you take way the Mech Hud does Mech Warrior look any different from any other FPS? Does Ghen War? The answer is no, they don't. So yes, I'd say they count in this comparison.



Keep moving the goal posts.



Here you go:


Skip to around the 4:30 mark.



You're confusing the Mission Stick with the Twin Stick. Mission Stick's can be combined together to have dual analog flight Stick. Panzer Dragoon Zwei makes use of this (it can also use the mouse). Virtual On is designed to use the Twin Stick. It's two physical sticks but they're entirely digital. In fact the Twin Stick is read as a standard controller. The Right stick actually maps to A,B,C,X,Y,Z, etc.

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No I am not this was reported in multiple magazines as the Twin Sticks had not been announced during that time.

Doom and games like it aren't actually 3D.

John Carmack had to make use of several tricks for these features to run smoothly on home computers of 1993. Most significantly, the Doom engine and levels are not truly three-dimensional; they are internally represented on a single plane, with height differences stored separately as displacements. (A similar trick is still used by many games to create huge outdoor environments.) This allows a two point perspective projection, with several design limitations: for example, it is not possible for the Doom engine to render one room over another. However, thanks to its two-dimensional property, the environment can be rendered very quickly, using a binary space partitioning method. Another benefit was the clarity of the automap, as that could be rendered with 2D vectors without any risk of overlapping.

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Originally Posted by Da_Shocker

No I am not this was reported in multiple magazines as the Twin Sticks had not been announced during that time.

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Magazines probably made the same mistake/assumption based on what info they got from Japan.

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Originally Posted by Gentlegamer

Doom and games like it aren't actually 3D.

John Carmack had to make use of several tricks for these features to run smoothly on home computers of 1993. Most significantly, the Doom engine and levels are not truly three-dimensional; they are internally represented on a single plane, with height differences stored separately as displacements. (A similar trick is still used by many games to create huge outdoor environments.) This allows a two point perspective projection, with several design limitations: for example, it is not possible for the Doom engine to render one room over another. However, thanks to its two-dimensional property, the environment can be rendered very quickly, using a binary space partitioning method. Another benefit was the clarity of the automap, as that could be rendered with 2D vectors without any risk of overlapping.

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I'm aware of that on PC and some consoles. But I was asking if for the PS1 version they reworked it to use 3D Polygons instead. I thought I had heard somewhere that they had done just that, as Lobotomy did with Duke Nukem 3D and Powerslave on the Saturn.

I'm not familiar, but I would bet the Duke Nukem 3D and Powerslave conversions to polygons were only for enemies, not the levels themselves.

The way BSP worked allowed for fast rendering and technically there is no "draw distance" because it's not calculating polygons for what you can see in the distance. If polygonal enemies were added to those levels, I would bet they couldn't be drawn very far away, creating a purely enemy draw distance, while the player could see what appears to be empty rooms or corridors. Of course, lower LOD models could be used to view more distant enemies.

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

Cyberdillo pushed the 3DO pretty hard (it and Killing Time are the only 3DO FPSes which are actually in full 3d worlds, I think)

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Nope, there's PO'ed, which even has jetpack sequences:

https://youtu.be/iwH8J4CPh0Y?t=11m35s



Check around 18:20 too.

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

I've beaten Nights, it's a great game, but anything other than side-scrolling takes up a miniscule percentage of the game; yeah, I guess it has a few little behind-the-character flying bits, and there are those ground parts where you run to the thing to become NiGHTS 3d platformer style, but if you're playing the game correctly you almost never see the 3d platformer side of the game (which makes me wonder why it's in the game at all, i kind of wish they had fleshed it out more or not included it at all, but it's a great game as it is, so whatever), it's pretty much a sidescroller.

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What does that have to do with this:

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

NiGHTS is a side-scrolling game, so what's the point of mentioning it? Side-view games don't need to render very far ahead.

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You wanted to discount NiGHTS from the discussion of draw distance by saying that it is a side-scrolling game.
The game has segments which demonstrate draw-distance. Whether you beat it or not, or think it's a great game, or whether the non-side scrolling parts of the game are miniscule ...all that has nothing to do with you trying to discount that game by saying "NiGHTS is a side-scrolling game, so what's the point of mentioning it? Side-view games don't need to render very far ahead."

(Now idk whether NiGHTS has a better draw-distance than Turok or whatever, and I don't care. But don't bullshit your way through this - you can't say the game doesn't count because it is a side-scroller, when that truly isn't the case.)

About Ghen War. I dont know, playing it, it doesnt really feel like your regular mech (or vechicle) game...it also doesnt feel like your standard fps. Fact is that it gave you polygonal enemies and enviroments from a first person perspective. In the enclosed enviroments, it totally felt like your regular corridor shooter.

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Originally Posted by goldenband

Nope, there's PO'ed, which even has jetpack sequences:

https://youtu.be/iwH8J4CPh0Y?t=11m35s



Check around 18:20 too.

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Ugh, PO'ed is what I meant when I said Killing Time. Got the two confused, and I should have looked it up. Killing Time isn't full 3d.

There's also a Playstation version of PO'ed, but it's apparently not quite as good as the 3DO version.

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Originally Posted by Zz Badnusty

What does that have to do with this:

You wanted to discount NiGHTS from the discussion of draw distance by saying that it is a side-scrolling game.
The game has segments which demonstrate draw-distance. Whether you beat it or not, or think it's a great game, or whether the non-side scrolling parts of the game are miniscule ...all that has nothing to do with you trying to discount that game by saying "NiGHTS is a side-scrolling game, so what's the point of mentioning it? Side-view games don't need to render very far ahead."

(Now idk whether NiGHTS has a better draw-distance than Turok or whatever, and I don't care. But don't bullshit your way through this - you can't say the game doesn't count because it is a side-scroller, when that truly isn't the case.)

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Actually, that they are a miniscule part of the game IS relevant. NiGHTS' engine was designed for side-view gameplay, not behind-the-character gameplay. If the draw distance is bad in the few little behind-the-character parts, it doesn't matter that much because it affects such a small part of the game. The game has enough draw distance to do and that's it, but that's okay for what it's doing. In a game that's entirely behind-the-character, naturally the draw distance matters a lot more.

However, comparing NiGHTS in the behind-the-character walking-around bits to the other major 3d platformers of 1996, Mario 64 and Crash Bandicoot (and also Bubsy 3D if you wish :p)) might be interesting... though again, it's not really a fair comparison because unlike those other games NiGHTS isn't really about behind-the-character play so draw distance clearly wasn't their focus.

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

I'm aware of that on PC and some consoles. But I was asking if for the PS1 version they reworked it to use 3D Polygons instead. I thought I had heard somewhere that they had done just that, as Lobotomy did with Duke Nukem 3D and Powerslave on the Saturn.

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Well, PS1 Doom's development team at Midway went on to develop Doom 64 for the N64 soon afterwards, and that game WAS redone in 3d polygon graphics, but I don't know if the PS1 version is like that or not... it would be good to know. Or maybe you're thinking of Doom 64. You can tell Doom 64 is real 3d because there are areas with a path over a path, something impossible in a raycasting engine. I'm pretty sure about that, anyway. I'm not sure how the PC remakes of Doom 64 get around that, if that is right.

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

Actually, that they are a miniscule part of the game IS relevant. NiGHTS' engine was designed for side-view gameplay, not behind-the-character gameplay. If the draw distance is bad in the few little behind-the-character parts, it doesn't matter that much because it affects such a small part of the game. The game has enough draw distance to do and that's it, but that's okay for what it's doing. In a game that's entirely behind-the-character, naturally the draw distance matters a lot more.

However, comparing NiGHTS in the behind-the-character walking-around bits to the other major 3d platformers of 1996, Mario 64 and Crash Bandicoot (and also Bubsy 3D if you wish :p)) might be interesting... though again, it's not really a fair comparison because unlike those other games NiGHTS isn't really about behind-the-character play so draw distance clearly wasn't their focus.

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Funny, for an Engine designed for Side-View gameplay it sure got a lot of use for behind the character 3D platforming gameplay:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

Well, PS1 Doom's development team at Midway went on to develop Doom 64 for the N64 soon afterwards, and that game WAS redone in 3d polygon graphics, but I don't know if the PS1 version is like that or not... it would be good to know. Or maybe you're thinking of Doom 64. You can tell Doom 64 is real 3d because there are areas with a path over a path, something impossible in a raycasting engine. I'm pretty sure about that, anyway. I'm not sure how the PC remakes of Doom 64 get around that, if that is right.

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No, I'm thinking of PS1 Doom. Just because parts of the levels don't overlap, doesn't mean the engine wasn't reworked to use Polygons. That can simply be a symptom of trying to replicate the PC level layouts as it was intended to be a port, not a remake.

Lol at ABF posts, ahahahah. But I saw they coming right in the moment I thought about creating this thread.

I'm currently working on adding more content to the first post and I'll be improving it with the suggestions you made; great stuff guys!

But while I'm doing that, don't forget about Blam! Machine Head. It was released in late 1996 for both Saturn and PS1: first person view, it has a 3D machine gun, 3D environments, 3D enemies and awful draw distance (just like Turok, lol).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

Actually, that they are a miniscule part of the game IS relevant. [...]

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I understand what you're saying, but in the context of the original ABF post I commented on, the quantity or length of behind-the-character play does not matter. He was flatly disregarding the exhibited draw distance abilities simply because he choose to say the game didn't count.
The amount of play isn't relevant to the fact that indeed the game does utilize draw distance. That's all I was saying. But somehow it got turned into a reason for ABF to tell us he beat the game and thinks it's great.

(eidt: lol, I'm so accustomed to glazing over ABF's walls of text, I didn't even realize I was responding to him here)

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

Let's stop lying to ourselves. Quake and other PC shooters pushed the genre forward, not Turok. Turok simply rides in on Quake's coat tails. It doesn't really do anything that Quake didn't do before it.

And seeing as how there's so few FPS games on the Saturn, especially around when it launched, I think light gun games like Virtua Cop are fair to use.

And all those FPS's you listed on the Saturn and PS1 have better draw distances than Turok. Who gives a shit if the enemies are polygonal if you can't freaking see more than a few feet in front of you?

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We get it, you hate the game, however saying that it's the same thing as Quake makes me think that you probably haven't played it. Its a completely different beast, different gameplay, different style of level design (one has complex indoor levels, the other has simpler but bigger outdoors), they have different objectives (Quake simply asks you to find the exit, Turok asks you to explore and backtrack entire levels to find items and shortcuts)....

It's not at all the same thing.

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

It's pathetic and horrible.

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Such hyperbole and hate. It was a very impressive console game by early 97 standards. Definitely not "pathetic" and not "horrible". If Turok is like that just for it's draw distance than all games with that kind of draw distance must be pathetic and horrible. I'm thinking something like Nights which doesn't even have the courtesy to mask it with some fog and everything simply materializes in front of you. Now THAT's pathetic and horrible.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zz Badnusty

I understand what you're saying, but in the context of the original ABF post I commented on, the quantity or length of behind-the-character play does not matter. He was flatly disregarding the exhibited draw distance abilities simply because he choose to say the game didn't count.
The amount of play isn't relevant to the fact that indeed the game does utilize draw distance. That's all I was saying. But somehow it got turned into a reason for ABF to tell us he beat the game and thinks it's great.

(eidt: lol, I'm so accustomed to glazing over ABF's walls of text, I didn't even realize I was responding to him here)

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I forgot about the behind-the-character flying parts when I made the first post, I was only thinking of the sidescrolling parts and the near-irrelevant 3d platformer part (where you run up the hill to turn into NiGHTS and that's it if you play the game right). Then after being reminded about it I said why it's not all that important how NiGHTS' draw distance is, so long as it gets to the edge of the screen in the normal side view. Because yeah, if the game was a 3d platformer I'd want a better draw distance than that game has (in the on-foot parts, but does the draw distance ever change depending on which mode of play it's in?).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

Funny, for an Engine designed for Side-View gameplay it sure got a lot of use for behind the character 3D platforming gameplay:

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They obviously improved the draw distance over time, just because a game is based on the same engine doesn't necessarily mean it's using the exact same version of that engine.

Compare those games to NiGHTS: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFxH6-g8FGQ and the differences aren't hard to spot. The draw distance in NiGHTS is VERY short, and you notice it in any of the behind-the-character parts, but not in the sidescrolling that makes up most of the game.

And indeed, when they used improved versions of the engine for Burning Rangers and the Sonic Jam 3d hub, third-person 3d games, the draw distances were improved as you would expect.

Quote:

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No, I'm thinking of PS1 Doom. Just because parts of the levels don't overlap, doesn't mean the engine wasn't reworked to use Polygons. That can simply be a symptom of trying to replicate the PC level layouts as it was intended to be a port, not a remake.

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Sure, it's possible. I don't know if they did or not.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Soulis

We get it, you hate the game, however saying that it's the same thing as Quake makes me think that you probably haven't played it. Its a completely different beast, different gameplay, different style of level design (one has complex indoor levels, the other has simpler but bigger outdoors), they have different objectives (Quake simply asks you to find the exit, Turok asks you to explore and backtrack entire levels to find items and shortcuts)....

It's not at all the same thing.

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Yeah, it's very easy to see how the people behind the first Metroid Prime game had worked on N64 Turok, there are definite similarities between the two games. Both are first-person games with shooting, jumping, exploration, and adventure elements. Turok isn't much like Quake. Of course id was an incalculable influence on the whole genre, though, and they probably did get some ideas from Quake even if the game was certainly in development for quite a while before Quake's release. Not in terms of the base game design though, no.

I heard the N64 killed a man in Reno just to watch him die.

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Originally Posted by Black_Tiger

What about the ever-evolving terminology used to declare the N64 pad to be the first console "game pad" featuring an analog "joystick"? Basically ABF and sometimes other N64 revisionists try to rule out fight sticks and other non-"normal" pads to rule the N64 pad's analog stick as "revolutionary!"

But even when you tailor such specifics rules for what counts, didn't the Saturn analog pad launched first? Or depending on where you get your dates, a week or so after the N64, but NiGHTs (featuring revolutionary 3D pad gameplay) released shortly before the N64.

At best, the N64 analog pad was a "me-too!" effort, releasing around the same time competitors' and featured by-far the worst analog stick and placement.

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This surely will be added. It should be there already but I felt like waiting for yet another wave of ABF bs, which came as expected.

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Originally Posted by Obviously

This one always bugged me. I don't know how many times I've heard people say, "Mega Man Legends ripped off Ocarina of Time" even though it came out nearly a full year earlier.

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And don't dare to argue with them. They will find some VHS footage of some very early Zelda OOT footage and claim that Nintendo got robbed, copied, yaddada. As if Mega Man Legends was developed in a single day.
Actually, you'll see this pattern for every single detail they grown up believing that Nintendo had pioneered.

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Originally Posted by Black_Tiger

If we're sticking to console gaming, Virtua Racing for Sega Genesis has a true 3D cockpit view.

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Yep and Checkered Flag too. I'll add them but expect an expletive "NOT TEXTURED" trainwreck right after.

The hilarious detail, though, is the weird frozen suspension in the N64 game; this is something that V.R. already had partially right with lateral movement when you turn the steering wheel.

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Originally Posted by saturndual32

Checkered Flag for the Atari Jaguar also featured a fog effect. It came out earlier than the 3DO Immercenary, 1994. Although it wasnt used all the time in Checkered Flag, it was more of a weather effect, rather than to hide pop-up. So Immercenary might be the better example of fog used before the N64.

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That's a great suggestion, actually, thanks.

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Originally Posted by saturndual32

About the dual analog support in games, didnt the Atari 5200 port of Robotron let you stick toghether 2 5200 controllers to allow for dual analog controls?

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IDK.

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Originally Posted by saturndual32

Another great post Barone, you are a gaming scholar in my book, hehe.

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Thanks, man.

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

I'm sure you'll follow this up with a thread tearing down similar statements people say about the PS1, right?
Right?
... I doubt it..

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Lmao. I can see a bleeding fanboy heart when I read this part.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

This list here is a lot like a lot of things about the N64, lots of criticism without admitting the N64's strengths much. The Wikipedia article is sort of like that in parts, criticizing the 4kb texture cache etc etc without nearly as much mentioning what the N64 COULD do.

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This list is what the OP says it is. It's my thread, my list; I do it as I want to.

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

Sure, this is true, but... the XE-1AP? Doesn't that have only one stick? I don't know if I'd count that analog slider as quite the same thing... and how many console games support the slider, anyway? I've seen the XE-1AP compatibility list before, but do any actually have analog support on the slider for something? I don't know that.

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Of course they do. After Burner II on the Mega Drive and After Burner Complete on the 32X, for an example, have the analog stick for X and Y axis analog movement and the slider for analog throttle control.

Something you couldn't do using a N64 controller, lol.

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

Those other games you list are designed for twin-stick joysticks, not a gamepad, so change the statement to "dual analog gamepad support" or "4-axis analog gamepad support" or something like that and it'd be true. Oh, and this doesn't matter for a list, but of course PDII: Zwei's twin-stick mode wasn't discovered until recent years, no one knew about it back then.

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You're so full of shit.

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

Wouldn't people probably usually be meaning "to console games" with this one? I mean, I would think there are games before those with sniper rifles on the PC as well...

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No, that claim was made in this very forum and I've seen it in other forums or comments. First evaaar.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

The second half of that statement is absolutely true, there are only four games that predate MK64 with 4-player splitscreen, those three and the SNES version of Street Racer that has four narrow horizontal windows. The fifth game with such a mode is still "one of the first".

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"One of the first, three years after" -> great, really great.

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

This one doesn't really matter because both Sony and Nintendo were just copying ideas from PC controllers anyway, it's the PC which had rumble first. Sony was too blatant about it and Immersion eventually sued them and won for ripping off their rumble tech.

Of course, also, outside of Japan Nintendo was indeed first by a lot, because the first PS1 analog controller didn't have rumble outside of Japan because it didn't work well, or something like that. But the PC being first is more important, that's what I'd say to someone claiming Nintendo did rumble first (outside of an arcade, if arcade games had rumble before PCs).

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Oh, boy, if only I didn't have eidetic memory:

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

You can make that argument for Sega, but most certainly not for Sony. The only reason the Dual Analog and Dual Shock controllers were released was because of the N64 controller particularly; sure, there was also the Saturn 3D controller, but it wasn't very popular, and wasn't supported by many games. The N64 controller, though, was popular, and is supported by every game in the library. The Dual Shock was a clear response to Nintendo. You can also see this by how they included rumble in their controller, copying Nintendo's Rumble Pak, which had just been released.

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I laugh at you, ABF.

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

Actually the first controller with 4 controller ports is the Bally Professional Arcade/Astrovision Astrocade, which predates the 5200 by years. Atari 2600 paddle controllers, which are two on each cable to allow four players on two controller ports, could also be considered here (4 controllers attached without needing a multitap is 4 controllers attached without needing a multitap), and also the Coleco Telstar Arcade, which has 2 built-in paddles and 2 more that you could buy and attach to a plug. There were also some standalone Pong clones with 4-paddle support.

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I still remember when you first learned about it, ABF, don't worry:
http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthr...l=1#post610044

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

However, the N64 was the first console released after 1982 to have four controller ports, which is important -- it was the first post-crash console with four ports.

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Oh, the delusional fanboy.
Yeah, I remember when you asserted that new bs statement:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

But yeah, good point on four controller ports, that was also an important advance -- first system with 4 ports post-crash. And you're right about Nintendo being quite forward-thinking with their design, in terms of using analog in the standard controller.

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The really sad part is that you keep repeating the same delusional crap two years after.

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

Is that actually an N64-style fog effect, or is it just fading things in at a specific distance? N64 fog actually covers the draw-in. Maybe Immercenary is like that, but I'm not sure.

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That's N64-style fog effect revision 1a; you're probably talking about N64-style fog effect revision 2c.

Hmmm, now i'm not sure what you hate more guys, the N64, Turok or ABF?

Just so i know what i'm defending here :P

Already at five pages?

https://pleatedjeans.files.wordpress...n-dolphins.jpg

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/pFlcqWQVVuU/0.jpg

http://img.youtube.com/vi/WNXReR9GLsk/0.jpg

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

They obviously improved the draw distance over time, just because a game is based on the same engine doesn't necessarily mean it's using the exact same version of that engine.

Compare those games to NiGHTS: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFxH6-g8FGQ and the differences aren't hard to spot. The draw distance in NiGHTS is VERY short, and you notice it in any of the behind-the-character parts, but not in the sidescrolling that makes up most of the game.

And indeed, when they used improved versions of the engine for Burning Rangers and the Sonic Jam 3d hub, third-person 3d games, the draw distances were improved as you would expect.

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But I thought the engine was only designed for 2D Side scrolling!

Yeah, they updated the engine over time. But to say the engine was only designed for 2D sidescrolling (which is what you said), is just plain stupid. That was what I was pointing out to you.

NiGHTS draw distance isn't that bad really:



Granted it may only be slightly better than Turok, I find the approach Sonic Team took much more appealing than the Heavy Fog Turok uses. NiGHTs like many other Saturn games makes clever use of VDP2 backgrounds and planes to blend in with where the polygon draw distance ends. While you can still easily see pop in if you look for it, it's not really as distracting during gameplay, and it doesn't make it so everything looks like it's taking place on a dark cloudy day with no clear blue skies. Turok's fog is distracting and in feels like it's in the way of me seeing and enjoying what appears to be an interesting world.

Let's also not forget that in most stages Nights is rendering not just one world, but effectively two as it renders both a unique floor and a unique ceiling.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Soulis

Hmmm, now i'm not sure what you hate more guys, the N64, Turok or ABF?

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Yes:p

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

NiGHTS draw distance isn't that bad really

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I can't believe i'm reading this.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

it doesn't make it so everything looks like it's taking place on a dark cloudy day with no clear blue skies.

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Maybe some games aren't supposed to be clear and colorful with blue skies? I guess Silent Hill is crap too because it takes place in a spooky, foggy place where you can't see anything (kinda like Turok).

Now that i'm thinking of it... what if there was a cut-scene that told you the whole place became foggy because of a volcanic eruption or something and tied the fog with the story? Would you still hate it that much?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by saturndual32

About the dual analog support in games, didnt the Atari 5200 port of Robotron let you stick toghether 2 5200 controllers to allow for dual analog controls?

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Robotron 2084, and Space Dungeon both utilized a dual controler harness for twin-stick play. However the control is 8-way digital.
So no, there were no 5200 twin stick analog games.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zz Badnusty

Robotron 2084, and Space Dungeon both utilized a dual controler harness for twin-stick play. However the control is 8-way digital.
So no, there were no 5200 twin stick analog games.

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Arent the 5200 joysticks analog?

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Originally Posted by Gentlegamer

I'm not familiar, but I would bet the Duke Nukem 3D and Powerslave conversions to polygons were only for enemies, not the levels themselves.

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Duke Nukem 3D on the Saturn had 3D levels with sprite based enemies.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by saturndual32

Arent the 5200 joysticks analog?

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As i understand it, yes. However many (most) games were not designed to make use of the analog ability. A movement of the joystick; let's say to the left, will simply register as "on" - the degree or amount the joystick is pressed to the left does not have any further effect on the game.
Robotron 2084 and Space Dungeon are arcade ports which were originally designed with an 8-way control scheme, analog control would have changed the games significantly.
Such 5200 games have the added benefit of compatibility with digital 3rd party controllers (or adapters) in place of the malfunction-prone stock controllers. My main 5200 controller is a modified NeoGeo stick - the analog controller is only required for a few games like Star Raiders, Pole Position, Super Breakout, Centipede, Tempest, and a handful of others.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zz Badnusty

As i understand it, yes. However many (most) games were not designed to make use of the analog ability. A movement of the joystick; let's say to the left, will simply register as "on" - the degree or amount the joystick is pressed to the left does not have any effect on the game.
Robotron 2084 and Space Dungeon are arcade ports which are originally designed with an 8-way control scheme, analog control would have changed the games significantly.
Such 5200 games have the added benefit of compatibility with digital 3rd party controllers (or adapters) in place of the malfunction-prone stock controllers. My main 5200 controller is a modified NeoGeo stick - the analog controller is only required for a few games like Star Raiders, Pole Position, Super Breakout, Centipede, Tempest, and a handful of others.

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OK, thanks for the info and clearing that up Badnusty.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lync

I apologize if this doesn't fit the e modus operandi or the intention of this thread

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You're always welcome in my threads - be it on or off topic you always bring something insightful IMO; have a free pass. :p

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lync

but in reflecting upon what I had expressed in the "N64 sucks" thread and having felt pretty crummy about it afterwards - I decided to sit down, hook up my Nintendo 64 one more time, mow over the games and reexamine my latest impressions of woe and resentment.
And I really did find myself right where I figured I would: I don't like the Nintendo 64, I don't find any of the games appealing and at absolute worse, some games felt unplayable. For me, without it's left or right legs (Nintendo / Rare) there is nothing much for the console to stand on in regards to software.

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See:
1080: TenEighty Snowboarding - Very good snowboarding game.
Bakuretsu Muteki Bangai-O - Very good shooter.
Banjo-Kazooie - Very good adventure/platformer.
Beetle Adventure Racing - Need for Speed in N64 fashion; a good game with good track design.
Blast Corps - Fun action game.
Choro Q 64 2 - Very solid racing game. The art style can be off-putting/misleading, but this is a very good game.
Cruis'n World - Good arcade racer.
Diddy Kong Racing - Good kart racer.
Doom 64 - Very good FPS.
Duke Nukem 64 - Solid rendition of the game.
Duke Nukem: Zero Hour - Good TPS.
Excitebike 64 - Very good motocross game.
F-Zero X - Great racer.
Forsaken 64 - Tough but good.
Gauntlet Legends - Solid game.
GoldenEye 007 - Has some really great things which overcome the technical flaws IMO.
Hydro Thunder - Very good arcade game.
Killer Instinct Gold - Good fighting game.
Mario Tennis - Very good tennis game. Superb for multiplayer.
Mischief Makers - Good "2D" action platformer.
Quake - Very good FPS but the expansion pack is *highly* recommended here for a better experience.
Rayman 2: The Great Escape - Very good platformer.
Ridge Racer 64 - Good game, but requires practicing.
San Francisco Rush 2049 - Good with the expansion pack.
SD Hiryu no Ken Densetsu - The only good 3D fighting game on the N64 IMO.
Shadow Man - Very good action adventure. Controls have some issues but you can get used to it. Well produced.
Sin and Punishment - Superb action game.
Snowboard Kids 2 - Very good snowboard game.
Starfox 64 - Solid rail shooter.
Star Wars: Rogue Squadron - Very good Star Wars game, has some flaws but it's still very cool IMO.
Top Gear Overdrive - Good racing game, great lighting effects, good controls, poor sfx.
Vigilante 8: 2nd Offense - Very good car combat game.
Wave Race 64 - Great racing game.
WipeOut 64 - Very good rendition of this game.
World Driver Championship - Superb racing game.

These are the only games I would recommend in the N64 library. And I believe that if you had them or an Everdrive 64 to play them, you probably wouldn't be willing to get rid of the console.
But I might say it's a very short list when compared to what I would recommend for the Saturn or for the PS1, and quite worse in terms of quality. The really great games are rare here and the sound isn't really great in most of them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lync

I've had my N64 since 1998, and maybe because I am just now venturing into the Saturn and PS1 libraries that everything seems so much more fresh - the overall experience on the N64 was still one of cumbersome controls and lackluster aesthetics. The presentation alone of most PS1 games really wowed me and along with the Saturn both systems seem to offer much more consistent gameplay and general quality. That may read as a vague statement but the experiences of 3D gaming on the N64 feel flat married with blurred graphics compared to that of the detail in environments seen on the PS1; the Saturn's 2D offerings are of course done masterfully. (The PS1 I never looked twice at and the Saturn years ago I scoffed at!)

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Several of the best N64 games still seem to lack that extra dose of polishment and some other games can really make you sad about the platform.

I'll respond to Barone if he ever decides to stop trolling and write serious replies. Nothing in that post that replies to me is accurate.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

But I thought the engine was only designed for 2D Side scrolling!

Yeah, they updated the engine over time. But to say the engine was only designed for 2D sidescrolling (which is what you said), is just plain stupid. That was what I was pointing out to you.

NiGHTS draw distance isn't that bad really:



Granted it may only be slightly better than Turok, I find the approach Sonic Team took much more appealing than the Heavy Fog Turok uses. NiGHTs like many other Saturn games makes clever use of VDP2 backgrounds and planes to blend in with where the polygon draw distance ends. While you can still easily see pop in if you look for it, it's not really as distracting during gameplay, and it doesn't make it so everything looks like it's taking place on a dark cloudy day with no clear blue skies. Turok's fog is distracting and in feels like it's in the way of me seeing and enjoying what appears to be an interesting world.

Let's also not forget that in most stages Nights is rendering not just one world, but effectively two as it renders both a unique floor and a unique ceiling.

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I know Soulis said this but... NiGHTS, a worse draw distance than Turok? What? That's absurd! Look at those videos again, NiGHTS is shorter, it's not close.

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Originally Posted by Soulis

I can't believe i'm reading this.

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It is a questionable statement.

Quote:

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Maybe some games aren't supposed to be clear and colorful with blue skies? I guess Silent Hill is crap too because it takes place in a spooky, foggy place where you can't see anything (kinda like Turok).

Now that i'm thinking of it... what if there was a cut-scene that told you the whole place became foggy because of a volcanic eruption or something and tied the fog with the story? Would you still hate it that much?

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Silent Hill is a good example of a PS1 game that uses a very limited draw distance to have a very detailed world within that really limited draw distance, yes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Soulis

Hmmm, now i'm not sure what you hate more guys, the N64, Turok or ABF?

Just so i know what i'm defending here :P

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All of the above. Barone loves to troll, as you can see in the post above yours.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gentlegamer

I'm not familiar, but I would bet the Duke Nukem 3D and Powerslave conversions to polygons were only for enemies, not the levels themselves.

The way BSP worked allowed for fast rendering and technically there is no "draw distance" because it's not calculating polygons for what you can see in the distance. If polygonal enemies were added to those levels, I would bet they couldn't be drawn very far away, creating a purely enemy draw distance, while the player could see what appears to be empty rooms or corridors. Of course, lower LOD models could be used to view more distant enemies.

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Duke 3D for Saturn was actually remade in the PowerSlave engine, it's not exactly a port of the PC game. And PowerSlave for PS1/Saturn has sprite-based characters in what I believe are polygonal worlds (not 100% sure about that, but I think so). I posted a video link earlier for the Saturn version, but here it is on PS1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQHSVEg4wts . Quake for the Saturn also runs on PowerSlave's SlaveDriver engine.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Black_Tiger

What about the ever-evolving terminology used to declare the N64 pad to be the first console "game pad" featuring an analog "joystick"? Basically ABF and sometimes other N64 revisionists try to rule out fight sticks and other non-"normal" pads to rule the N64 pad's analog stick as "revolutionary!"

But even when you tailor such specifics rules for what counts, didn't the Saturn analog pad launched first? Or depending on where you get your dates, a week or so after the N64, but NiGHTs (featuring revolutionary 3D pad gameplay) released shortly before the N64.

At best, the N64 analog pad was a "me-too!" effort, releasing around the same time competitors' and featured by-far the worst analog stick and placement.

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First, remember that when Nintendo first showed the N64 controller in fall 1995 it was considered revolutionary. That Sega released an analog controller too nine months later (or so) either shows that they were quietly thinking the same thing, or got the idea of releasing an analog controller in part because of seeing the N64 controller.

But regardless, you mean only Sega by "the competitors", yes? Because the Playstation didn't have an analog gamepad until nine months after the N64 and Saturn. That shows how industry progress towards analog was not as "universal" as you say. Nintendo showed an analog controller first, Sega made one next but supported it somewhat poorly, and Sony lagged behind but supported it well once it finally released. But without the N64 controller being what it is, who knows what would have happened.

Also, the N64 has the best analog stick placement, because it's the only one where the analog stick and d-pad are equally comfortable to use, and some of us think that it's a great-feeling stick as well.

Last, including an analog controller with the system was a big deal. It had not been done since before the crash, and it significantly changed game controls by making almost all games support analog, something that had not been the case before. The Atari 5200 and a few other pre-crash systems did have analog controllers, but most games for those systems have only digital controls, not analog. When Nintendo brought that back, it came with lots of games that were actually analog. You can easily see the impact of this by comparing how few Saturn games, even those released after the 3D Controller, actually support it, versus the N64 controller's near-universal analog support in games. Or look at how the number of analog-supporting PS1 games increased greatly after Sony started packing it in with the system, but the PS1 never reached N64 levels of analog support (in terms of percent of the library).

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Originally Posted by Zz Badnusty

As i understand it, yes. However many (most) games were not designed to make use of the analog ability. A movement of the joystick; let's say to the left, will simply register as "on" - the degree or amount the joystick is pressed to the left does not have any further effect on the game.
Robotron 2084 and Space Dungeon are arcade ports which were originally designed with an 8-way control scheme, analog control would have changed the games significantly.
Such 5200 games have the added benefit of compatibility with digital 3rd party controllers (or adapters) in place of the malfunction-prone stock controllers. My main 5200 controller is a modified NeoGeo stick - the analog controller is only required for a few games like Star Raiders, Pole Position, Super Breakout, Centipede, Tempest, and a handful of others.

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Yeah, this is definitely one of the reasons why modern controllers have both a d-pad and an analog stick, some games are better with one control type and others the other.