The N64 Mythology

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Black_Tiger

At best, the N64 analog pad was a "me-too!" effort, releasing around the same time competitors' and featured by-far the worst analog stick and placement.

---

And yet, somehow, it was the most successful effort. So successful that it practically made other efforts look like they never existed, that's why many people think this as Nintendo's first. I don't blame them. I mean Nintendo seemed to push it much more heavily than the competition.

Also, even though the release dates of the controllers are very close to each other, i'm pretty sure Nintendo showed it WAY before the N64 release and before anyone else.

Now the controller itself isn't probably the best (still very good for FPS games though, especially if you use the "lefty" option holding the D-pad and the analog, to simulate a keyboard-mouse setup). But the games themselves were the ones that made the best use of the analog. Mario 64 was and still is amazing to control. Much better than the more recent Mario platformers even, IMO.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Barone

You're always welcome in my threads - be it on or off topic you always bring something insightful IMO; have a free pass. :p



See:
1080: TenEighty Snowboarding - Very good snowboarding game.
Banjo-Kazooie - Very good adventure/platformer.
Beetle Adventure Racing - Need for Speed in N64 fashion; a good game with good track design.
Blast Corps - Fun action game.
Choro Q 64 2 - Very solid racing game. The art style can be off-putting/misleading, but this is a very good game.
Cruis'n World - Good arcade racer.
Diddy Kong Racing - Good kart racer.
Doom 64 - Very good FPS.
Duke Nukem 64 - Solid rendition of the game.
Duke Nukem: Zero Hour - Good TPS.
Excitebike 64 - Very good motocross game.
F-Zero X - Great racer.
Forsaken 64 - Tough but good.
Gauntlet Legends - Solid game.
GoldenEye 007 - Has some really great things which overcome the technical flaws IMO.
Hydro Thunder - Very good arcade game.
Killer Instinct Gold - Good fighting game.
Mario Tennis - Very good tennis game. Superb for multiplayer.
Mischief Makers - Good "2D" action platformer.
Quake - Very good FPS but the expansion pack is *highly* recommended here for a better experience.
Rayman 2: The Great Escape - Very good platformer.
Ridge Racer 64 - Good game, but requires practicing.
San Francisco Rush 2049 - Good with the expansion pack.
SD Hiryu no Ken Densetsu - The only good 3D fighting game on the N64 IMO.
Shadow Man - Very good action adventure. Controls have some issues but you can get used to it. Well produced.
Sin and Punishment - Superb action game.
Snowboard Kids 2 - Very good snowboard game.
Star Wars: Rogue Squadron - Very good Star Wars game, has some flaws but it's still very cool IMO.
Top Gear Overdrive - Good racing game, great lighting effects, good controls, poor sfx.
Vigilante 8: 2nd Offense - Very good car combat game.
Wave Race 64 - Great racing game.
WipeOut 64 - Very good rendition of this game.
World Driver Championship - Superb racing game.

These are the only games I would recommend in the N64 library. And I believe that if you had them or an Everdrive 64 to play them, you probably wouldn't be willing to get rid of the console.
But I might say it's a very short list when compared to what I would recommend for the Saturn or for the PS1, and quite worse in terms of quality. The really great games are rare here and the sound isn't really great in most of them.

---

I'd add Starfox 64; It's a pretty fun game and much better than the SNES Star Fox. Pilot Wings 64 is also a pretty good game, but I could see why some wouldn't like it. Ogre Battle 64 is pretty good as well.

Quote:

---

Several of the best N64 games still seem to lack that extra dose of polishment and some other games can really make you sad about the platform.

---

Yeah, the Ocarina of Time is a highly praised game for the console, but I often felt that the game was held back by the limitations of the cartridge and the blurry (stretched out) textures didn't impress me much. I'm a bigger fan of Wind Waker.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gamevet

Yeah, the Ocarina of Time is a highly praised game for the console, but I often felt that the game was held back by the limitations of the cartridge and the blurry (stretched out) textures didn't impress me much. I'm bigger fan of Wind Waker.

---

If anything, the cartridge allowed the whole world to be accessible without loading times, making the experience more seamless. But yeah, the textures weren't that great, especially compared to Banjo Kazooie that was an earlier release, but at least Majora's Mask was improved on that.

Thanks for the recommendations Barone - as much as I keep convincing myself to push my N64 out the door I've been trying to consider what games I would want if I were to build an argument against myself in keeping everything (I actually just sold 1080 Snowboarding not too long ago), I've been thinking about it for days actually and feel so conflicted!

I really don't like 3D platformers and am indifferent to racing games. I've played Goldeneye and Mario Kart 64 to the point that I don't ever want to play them again. I also have Smash Bros. and playing it by yourself is not very thrilling. Kirby 64 surprisingly I still like but it is very slow paced.

*Edit - Thanks for the plug Gamevet, the Panzer Dragoon games have actually kept me from looking twice at Starfox 64, will think it over though. The Zelda games however, I love ALTTP, but Zelda in 3D? That just sounds like too much effort. Is Ocarina that dope?

A few moments ago I was in the basement flipping back and forth between the over-worlds in both Super Mario 64 and in Sonic Jam, both composite video, I really can't get over how soft and muddy the Mario environment looked compared to the Sonic world where everything is actually pretty well defined. Not being able to grab RGB out of the N64 without modding it also discourages me and I'm curious about the clarity difference, as well with Saturn and PS1.

Bottom line, most N64 titles outside of the Nintendo and Rare stable lack a bit of personality for me and seem generic; Sorry if that's harsh.

In any case, if I sell it all I'll be looking to grab a reproduction cart of Front Mission Gun Hazard and Gundam Wing: Endless Duel for SNES. :cool: The repo prices are straight ridiculous.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Soulis

I can't believe i'm reading this.

---

If you guys can say "Turok's draw distance is ok cuz you can see what you need to see" then I don't see why saying Nights draw distance isn't too bad is so absurd.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Soulis

Maybe some games aren't supposed to be clear and colorful with blue skies? I guess Silent Hill is crap too because it takes place in a spooky, foggy place where you can't see anything (kinda like Turok).

Now that i'm thinking of it... what if there was a cut-scene that told you the whole place became foggy because of a volcanic eruption or something and tied the fog with the story? Would you still hate it that much?

---

Turok doesn't look like a game where not being able to see improves the atmosphere. For Silent Hill it's a horror game so it makes sense. Turok is a first person adventure style game. It doesn't make sense to not be able to see. And the sky doesn't have to be blue and clear, but it would at least be nice to be able to actually see it.

I prefer what NiGHTS is doing far more, because it looks more natural. The draw distance line blends in nicely with the backgrounds VDP2 is generating so you don't notice the popup line that much, and it gives the feeling that you're in a large open area.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

I know Soulis said this but... NiGHTS, a worse draw distance than Turok? What? That's absurd! Look at those videos again, NiGHTS is shorter, it's not close.

---

I'm playing it right now. Honestly I'm not seeing anything worse than Turok here. In fact I'd rate it higher simply because it gives me something nicer to look at than ugly gray fog.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

Duke 3D for Saturn was actually remade in the PowerSlave engine, it's not exactly a port of the PC game. And PowerSlave for PS1/Saturn has sprite-based characters in what I believe are polygonal worlds (not 100% sure about that, but I think so). I posted a video link earlier for the Saturn version, but here it is on PS1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQHSVEg4wts . Quake for the Saturn also runs on PowerSlave's SlaveDriver engine.

---

Yes, they run in the SlaveDriver Engine, which is a 3D engine rendering polygons. That's why Quake worked well in it. It's also why you were able to do things in those ports such as look up with out crazy distortions as well as why they were able to implement lighting and what not.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

First, remember that when Nintendo first showed the N64 controller in fall 1995 it was considered revolutionary. That Sega released an analog controller too nine months later (or so) either shows that they were quietly thinking the same thing, or got the idea of releasing an analog controller in part because of seeing the N64 controller.

---

I think it's safe to say they were all thinking of the same thing. The Saturn's 3D Controller was designed for NiGHTS, which started development in late 1994, and according to interviews I've posted for you, they decided on having that kind of controller very early on.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

But regardless, you mean only Sega by "the competitors", yes? Because the Playstation didn't have an analog gamepad until nine months after the N64 and Saturn. That shows how industry progress towards analog was not as "universal" as you say. Nintendo showed an analog controller first, Sega made one next but supported it somewhat poorly, and Sony lagged behind but supported it well once it finally released. But without the N64 controller being what it is, who knows what would have happened.

---

There were third party analog controllers for the PS1 pretty early on. And again, interviews with Sonic Team prove they were working on the 3D Controller before Nintendo unveiled the N64 controller. I proved this for you once years ago with interviews. I'm not digging them up again. Quit trying to push the same bullshit arguments over and over again in hopes someone doesn't remember the last time you tried them and were proven wrong.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

Also, the N64 has the best analog stick placement, because it's the only one where the analog stick and d-pad are equally comfortable to use, and some of us think that it's a great-feeling stick as well.

---

The Saturn 3D Controller would like to have a word with you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

Last, including an analog controller with the system was a big deal. It had not been done since before the crash, and it significantly changed game controls by making almost all games support analog, something that had not been the case before. The Atari 5200 and a few other pre-crash systems did have analog controllers, but most games for those systems have only digital controls, not analog. When Nintendo brought that back, it came with lots of games that were actually analog. You can easily see the impact of this by comparing how few Saturn games, even those released after the 3D Controller, actually support it, versus the N64 controller's near-universal analog support in games. Or look at how the number of analog-supporting PS1 games increased greatly after Sony started packing it in with the system, but the PS1 never reached N64 levels of analog support (in terms of percent of the library).

---

Actually quite a few Saturn games support the 3D controller. And who knows, had the Saturn sold better maybe Sega would have bundled it with the system later on. Here's a list of games that support it on Sega Retro, and as they have mentioned it doesn't include all of them:

http://segaretro.org/3D_Control_Pad

And Nintendo didn't "Bring Back" the analog stick. As proven before there were other analog controllers after the Atari 5200, and before the N64. Quit changing the goal posts to keep the thing revolutionary and just admit that it wasn't revolutionary, it was just evolutionary.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Soulis

And yet, somehow, it was the most successful effort. So successful that it practically made other efforts look like they never existed, that's why many people think this as Nintendo's first. I don't blame them. I mean Nintendo seemed to push it much more heavily than the competition.

---

That must explain why Sony's design is the one that became the industry standard. Oh wait...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Soulis

Also, even though the release dates of the controllers are very close to each other, i'm pretty sure Nintendo showed it WAY before the N64 release and before anyone else.

---

As stated above Sega's was designed for NiGHTS, which began development in 1994 following Sonic and Knuckles. There's interviews with Sonic Team stating they were working on prototypes and finalized a design before Nintendo unveiled their controller.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gamevet

I'd add Starfox 64; It's a pretty fun game and much better than the SNES Star Fox.

---

Agreed, edited.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gamevet

Pilot Wings 64 is also a pretty good game, but I could see why some wouldn't like it. Ogre Battle 64 is pretty good as well.

---

Yes, they are. Just not my cup of tea.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lync

Thanks for the recommendations Barone - as much as I keep convincing myself to push my N64 out the door I've been trying to consider what games I would want if I were to build an argument against myself in keeping everything (I actually just sold 1080 Snowboarding not too long ago), I've been thinking about it for days actually and feel so conflicted!

---

It might be a hard decision. I would probably let it collecting a good chunk of dust instead of selling it; however, I'm not the best of the examples in such extent.
The idea of losing a platform never seems good to me. I'd probably try to improve the platform in some ways, by trying a better video output option and some nicer controllers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lync

I really don't like 3D platformers and am indifferent to racing games.

---

Hehe, that's like 66% of the best N64 games not going to click with you then. :p

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lync

Not being able to grab RGB out of the N64 without modding it also discourages me and I'm curious about the clarity difference,

---

For me not much of a noticeable difference between RBG and S-Video on the N64. In this case I'd say S-Video should be more than sufficient in order to get better visuals from the system.
The jump from composite will be apparent, yes, but that's not to say you'll end up satisfied with what you see. After all, this is the N64 we're talking about. :p

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

That must explain why Sony's design is the one that became the industry standard. Oh wait...

---

The dual analog standard wasn't really a standard until the PS2/GC/XBOX generation and more specifically, Halo. That was the game that made the dual analog standard as we know it now (although Goldeneye could be the first if a dual analog controller existed for N64, as there is an option for 2 analog sticks with the same controls as modern shooters).

Before that it was just about the single analog stick (Heck, even Dreamcast that was released much later than the N64, had a single analog stick as a standard). And the company that pushed it more than others was Nintendo with Mario 64 (the whole controller was designed around Mario 64) and all the other launch games that supported it (Pilotwings and Waverace).

Don't forget that the analog was on the standard controller that came with the N64, and it wasn't just an option like it was initially with the PS1/Saturn. If Sony/Sega had so much faith with their analog controllers and knew it would become a standard then why did they launch the consoles with only the D-pad controllers? The answer is easy. They didn't have as much faith in the technology as Nintendo had. And that's why i give most of the credit to Nintendo about this.

The whole N64 launch was about the analog stick and how it can be used properly to navigate 3D environments (which is a different thing than whatever ideas had with the Vertex or 5200). That's what Nintendo hyped the most, i don't remember Sony hyping it as much until it actually became successful (by Nintendo). Same thing happened with the rumble pack. Nintendo didn't start the technology but they were the ones that made it popular for consoles with Starfox 64 and the rumble pack that was included with the game (and hyped).

During 5th generation it was like everyone else was waiting for Nintendo to take the risks in pushing new things, that they probably also had already designed themselves too. And if you remember one little detail about Wii's launch, it was the fact that they didn't ever show the controller and how it would work, until the console was ready to be released. And the reason they did this, according to someone in Nintendo but i don't remember details, was because they didn't want others to copy them very early on (they still copied them much later though).

I'm not talking about Dual Analog. I'm talking about the actual design of the stick itself and it's inner workings. Sony's design is the design used by Microsoft and Nintendo these days. The only people making analog sticks like the N64's, are the people making replacement sticks for worn out N64 controllers.

And as stated before, Sega was designing their Analog stick before Nintendo unveiled the N64 controller.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

And as stated before, Sega was designing their Analog stick before Nintendo unveiled the N64 controller.

---

Well, OBVIOUSLY, Nintendo was also designing their analog before they unveiled it....

So you can't know who thought of it first. All we know is who pushed it and had faith in it by making it the standard controller and designing all their games around it (and forcing 3rd party developers to do the same by making it the standard controller). Like i said in my edited post, that's why people (and myself) give most credit to Nintendo for this.

---

11) "Mario Kart 64 (Dec/1996) invented the four player cross-style split-screen look that is the standard for 4-player split-screen games and it was one of the first 4-player split-screen console games."

Reality check: Disproved by:
- Faceball (Nov/1993) (PCE CD)
- Top Gear 300 (Mar/1995) (SNES)
- Street Racer (Nov/1996) (SAT/PS1)


Great post, you could add if you wish 1995 Street racer and also 1995 Super Skidmarks, both for the Megadrive, both 4 player split screen ;)

Was the Wii controller the first to implement gyroscope controls for gaming?
Of course not, the reason Wii is regarded as a "pioneer" for motion gaming is that it was the first console to use it as the default standard and which popularized it to the mass market.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Folco

Was the Wii controller the first to implement gyroscope controls for gaming?
Of course not, the reason Wii is regarded as a "pioneer" for motion gaming is that it was the first console to use it as the default standard and which popularized it to the mass market.

---

Nintendo and Apple pull that crap all the time. They find an existing technology, exploit it and use their popularity to force it into the mainstream.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FuturePrimitive

Excellent info Barone! I'll have to rep you.

---

Thanks, man.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FuturePrimitive

When I think of one of the first analog sticks for home video games, I think of the Vectrex. Multitudes of joysticks were developed for the arcades and computers too, but that's obvious.

---

Yeah, same here.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

I thought Magic Carpet was the 1st to use the fog effect ?

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by retrospiel

I seem to remember many PC games from ~1994 that used fog. Wasn't Terminal Velocity one of them?

---

Thanks for the suggestion, guys.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by maxi

The problem is, these facts are almost useless in discussions with nintendists.
I myself have used some of them, and even games that also prove the introduction of gameplay mechanics and genres before Nintendo "invent" them in their nes/snes releases.
And so, when they face the dates, they always do an immediate and incomprehensible procedure of brain exchange and start saying that the dates do not matter, because what matter is that it was Nintendo who "satisfactorily implemented" the gimmicks.
But at least we can have a historically correct list, in case of these people who are always trying to rewrite game history...

---

Never go to a gunfight with a sword; never go to a technical discussion with Nintendo fanboys.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Black_Tiger

The N64 never used fog to hide pop-up either, it's strictly a "mood-altering" hardware feature.
You can tell the difference to non-pop-up mood altering and inferior pop-up masking in one easy step:
"Is the fog on Nintendo 64?"
Yes = mood altering
No = cheap trick

---

So true.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Soulis

In console's defense, even though most of these aren't N64 firsts, at least a number of them were made popular on that console or were the first actually good implementations.

And since you mentioned all these, why not mention the nice features that N64 probably did first and are correct when fans bring up? Like, Turok being the first fully polygonal FPS where the enemies had polygons and smooth motion capture like movement and animation? (yeah, Quake wasn't that great with it's SNES FX chip looking enemies that looked like puppets and moved like stop motion animatronics) Not sure if it is indeed the first but you seem to know things and i would like to know :cool:

---

Well, first of all, Soulis, I really respect your inputs in this thread and in the N64-related discussions; because even when I completely disagree with you, I can see that you're coming from a honest point of view; talking based on your own experience.

Unlike ABF claims, I don't the N64 but I think this pioneerism bs needs to go.
And it's not like we're bringing this thing out of nowhere; pretty much every single discussion involving the N64 will have stuff like I cited in the OP used as an excuse for the platform/games flaws and/or an infinite highway for Nintendo praise.
IMO it's something which has plagued most, if not all, 5th gen consoles discussions I've seen lately and it actually brings nothing to the table in terms of actual comparison of libraries and technical achievements in that gen. When people began to pull off that kind of crap, the discussions go into the obscurantist road and we quit analyzing things for what they are.

The same people who answer any criticism to Goldeneye with a the pioneerism card are the ones who will trash early Saturn games for not having smooth draw in effects.

I will not say that the Saturn and PS1 crowds haven't any skeletons in the close, but I'm sick and tired of partaking discussions with are completely sidetracked by "facts" which are false or completely, and which would bring nothing to the discussion even if they were actually true.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Soulis

Also, it wasn't Conker the first N64 game that did a real time shadow, it was Jet Force Gemini, Conker only took it one step further making it even more impressive.

---

AFAIK, Jet Force Gemini didn't have shadows which dynamically (or visually look as dynamic) react to lighting; so Blast Corps had something like that years before, it's just that they added transparency in Jet Force Gemini's, which I wouldn't consider a big deal.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Soulis

Here is another thing to add to that list since many people think N64 did first and some even believe that it was the only console doing it. Pop-Up. Hence the famous "N64 fog" line. N64 haters will always concentrate on this ONE thing about Turok (ignoring anything good about this game) even though 99% (if not 100%) of open ended 3D polygonal games at the time had either pop-up or fog to mask that pop-up.
But i guess this one is not an issue since its something to use in order to downplay the console.

---

Well, I've already explained my purpose in the OP and in this reply, I hope we don't need to go in the "You hate it; no, YOU hate it" kind of debate because that would be awful.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Soulis

Yeah, something like that. Or (god forbid) Saturn. Or the Dreamcast messiah.

---

You're telling this to a guy who got a ton of nasty personal attacks from a, once, friend for not swallowing the Dreamcast bs.
If I see something which I know/believe to be technically or historically wrong I'll be challenging it. No matter the platform or who is posting it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Soulis

Is it a taboo around here to talk about N64 games while mentioning something about them that isn't wrong?

---

No platform or library should be automatically shielded against valid criticism, this is the only thing I will tell you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Soulis

I remember how Alien Trilogy also had "pathetic" draw distance (and it didn't even have huge open ended areas or even 3D enemies) and yet many consider it a great game regardless (and it was, i agree).

---

That's a corridor FPS, you don't need or expect the same draw distance that would need/expect from a free roaming open world game like Turok.
A bit longer draw distance, like Alien Resurrection offers would be good IMO, of course, but the order of expected draw distances here is very different.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Soulis

The only game that gets panned for it's draw distance so much is Turok for whatever reason.

---

This is not true. Games like the first release of Daytona USA on the Saturn got panned for the very same reason and they deserved it IMO.
It's both far away from what it should be and it also hurts the way you could plan your overtakes by looking at the traffic coming from the horizon, for an example. And it looks awful IMO.

And while we're at the "Let's praise what executed it well for the first time" vibe, let's praise Unreal (PC) for actually delivering what Turok was supposed to be, without having awful draw distance or shitting its frame rate pants to do so.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Soulis

Well, OBVIOUSLY, Nintendo was also designing their analog before they unveiled it....

So you can't know who thought of it first. All we know is who pushed it and had faith in it by making it the standard controller and designing all their games around it (and forcing 3rd party developers to do the same by making it the standard controller). Like i said in my edited post, that's why people (and myself) give most credit to Nintendo for this.

---

Or we can just admit the fact that 3D gaming was going to need analog controls so all three console makers were researching and developing analog controllers around the same time. All three were technically "pioneering" with their own solution to the same perceived problem. The solution that was accepted by the industry and became the standard just so happens to be Sony's. And technically we could say Sega's layout was also accepted as that's the layout both Microsoft and Nintendo adopted.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

And then here comes Turok, with a fully 3d polygonal world to explore, swimming, jumping, polygonal enemies, exploration, things to collect, and more... the game pushed the genre forward in very real ways. PowerSlave (Saturn ver.) might be the next-closest thing, but Turok's clearly on a level above it in scale, and graphics (polygonal enemies, more detailed and larger environments, etc.). The cost of all that was the draw distance, but you quickly get used to it, it's not a problem any more than the draw distance in the first Saturn version of Daytona USA is, and I love that version of the game worst graphics or no (it might be my favorite of the three Saturn versions, in fact...).

---

Hmm, not trying to hurt your fanboy trip but: how many years it took for a N64 FPS game have light-sourced projectiles like Powerslave?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

Most of this is just biased N64-bashing, but seriously, you really do quickly get used to the viewing distance in Turok, it's not nearly the issue you make it out to be. Sure, a better draw distance would have been nice, but you don't NEED it.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

The almost universal horrendous pixelization in textures in so many of those games says "yes, absolutely!"

---

No double-standard, no bias here.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

Mechwarrior isn't a FPS, for example.

---

From the same creator of "Virtua Fighter is not a 3D Fighting game" and "Fighting Vipers doesn't have sidestepping".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by The Coop

"First Person" is the viewpoint/perspective the player sees the game from. As in, from the "eyes" of the character (human/alien/robot//vehicle/whatever) you control. And I say "eyes" because even if you control a vehicle that's on its own with no pilot, it has to have a camera somewhere on it so it can see where it's going, right? You'd be seeing through that camera, and thus, still in First Person. You don't need a "person" to play in First Person perspective.

---

Amen.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

Or we can just admit the fact that 3D gaming was going to need analog controls so all three console makers were researching and developing analog controllers around the same time. All three were technically "pioneering" with their own solution to the same perceived problem.

---

Exactly. Analog control wasn't some secret new thing they all discovered. It was an existing technology everyone in the industry knew about ( and Sega had plenty of experience with it already with arcade and home games).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

The almost universal horrendous pixelization in textures in so many of those games says "yes, absolutely!"

---

Such awful pixelated textures:

http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m...psgxbwin0d.png

http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m...pslsjavrrc.png

http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m...psmjfeqh2q.png

http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m...psgkbbuxjq.png

http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m...ps0dzfhkom.png

http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m...pskmiqftvp.png

http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m...psxaouhi8p.png

http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m...ps38pclzbs.png

And that game came out in July of 1995. So roughly 8 months after the Japanese launch, or 3 months after the US launch.

Let alone the fact that those games weren't supposed to be played on huge ass 70 inch LCD/LED/Plasma TV and that you should have some scanlines there.

People going full retard about PS1's full screen dithering and "jaggies", "pixelation" on both PS1 and Saturn using awfully stretched emulated captures with no scanlines is something that I find mind-boggling, to say the least.

Too bad there's no attenuation for the awful textures in the N64 games.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lync

In any case, if I sell it all I'll be looking to grab a reproduction cart of Front Mission Gun Hazard and Gundam Wing: Endless Duel for SNES. :cool: The repo prices are straight ridiculous.

---

For Endless Duel you should just get the real deal and pop-off the plastic tabs inside your SNES. One of history's easiest console mods.

The translated dialogue is kind of garbage anyway.

Awesome thread Barone!

I appreciate all the facts that are being gathered by you and others:rock:

Very good read so far.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GriskaGyoran

Nintendo and Apple pull that crap all the time. They find an existing technology, exploit it and use their popularity to force it into the mainstream.

---

I don't remember analog controls being popular before Nintendo exploited it. I don't remember the rumble pack, or the shoulder buttons (before the SNES pad) or the D-Pad (on the NES pad). Again, i don't know who designs all that stuff first. Maybe it was Nintendo, maybe it was Sega and Nintendo used spies to steal their ideas, maybe it was Sony, maybe all of them stole those ideas from the nazis.

What matters is who will take the risk to actually invest in those ideas and push them on the market. So far it seems to me that Nintendo has a bigger urge compared to others investing in "untested" ideas (based in existing tech or not) before these are accepted by the gaming community. I'm not saying that if Nintendo didn't exist the analog stick (as a standard) wouldn't exist or the shoulder buttons or the rumble pack or the d-pad. I'm saying that maybe we would see those as standards a little later, maybe a month, maybe a year, who knows. That doesn't mean we have to act like Nintendo are gods but come on guys they deserve at least some of the credit.

Now i agree that there are many false claims about pioneerism on N64. I myself have claimed a few things and proven wrong as there is always a game or developer out there who thought of things before the one you thought. Sometimes it can be a completely unknown game from an obscure home computer, etc. But for us, what matters is who are the ones that actually use those things in a way to make a difference in gaming and create new standards.

In Sega-16 i don't think there is a respect for what Nintendo has done on the console market, at all. Even in this thread i can see many posts that are worse than what you could read in places you seem to hate, like NintendoAge. Everyone seems to focus on the bad stuff the company did ignoring the good stuff completely. Same thing with their consoles. I thought this would be a better place to talk about retro stuff than others, i found this place because i was looking for detailed technical information and comparisons about retro consoles and i found some amazing threads and posters for that here. But i didn't expect such behavior as this, some of the posts here are as bad as what the fanboys you hate post, only the opposite they are hater posts. I get that there is a certain poster who irritates you but your answers are visible to everyone not just him.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Barone

And while we're at the "Let's praise what executed it well for the first time" vibe, let's praise Unreal (PC) for actually delivering what Turok was supposed to be, without having awful draw distance or shitting its frame rate pants to do so.

---

Well, personally, i don't think Turok pioneered anything generally, but on a cheap console it did some things i hadn't seen before, mostly technically, not as far as gameplay goes. I mean those huge polygonal bosses (especially the Mantis and the T-Rex) looked like nothing i had seen on the PS1 before, except maybe the dinosaur tech demo on the Demo One disc (yes, i also had a PS1, although not a Saturn). I also loved the weapons and how some of those had cool animations and mechanical sound effects like the grenade launcher or the rocket launcher which would "unfold" after you equipped them doing robotic sounds. It had the best foliage effects i had seen up that point, like those 3D palm trees that you could even bring down, although it was a scripted animation not physics. But it's funny how when i first played Crysis and started chopping down trees, the first thing that came into my mind was Turok.

I don't know guys, i had a lot of fun with this game, i wasn't even a child i was 16 years old, i didn't mind the draw distance that much as the game is designed around it and the fog effect added some atmosphere or at least that's how it felt to me. Feels weird that all this time i was delusional and didn't really have fun with it because the internet tells me it was a pathetic piece of shit and nothing more (i love the choice of words and hyperbole is some posts). Well, its not my fault, most magazines back then gave it great reviews. i thought i was playing a good game : /

We're not discounting some of the things Nintendo has done for the industry. We're just pointing out that some of the ones you and ABF love to spout like indoctrinated morons weren't really pioneering firsts. They were either done first by other companies, or simply evolutionary things that all major console manufacturers were working on around the same time.

Here's a fun one for you. Panzer Dragoon 1 supports the 3D Control Pad. It doesn't advertise it, but it does support it and works with it allowing full analog controls when the pad is switched to analog mode. If Sega didn't get the idea for an Analog Controller until Nintendo unveiled the N64 why would they have programmed in Analog support for one of their US launch titles?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Barone

[...]
These are the only games I would recommend in the N64 library.

---

...so sad, no Bangaioh?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

If Sega didn't get the idea for an Analog Controller until Nintendo unveiled the N64 why would they have programmed in Analog support for one of their US launch titles?

---

I don't think i ever said that the analog stick itself was Nintendo's idea. What i'm saying is that the analog as a standard was Nintendo's idea. You said it yourself. "here's a fun one for you". As if you knew i wasn't aware of it. But why am i unaware? Is it my fault that Sega does something cool and doesn't even mention it? Seems to me Sega didn't have any faith on the analog stick at all. It was just an extra niche addition for them.

And you didn't answer my question. If both Sony and Sega knew it would be the new standard, why the hell didn't they release their consoles with the analog stick instead of the standard d-pad only? Why only a selected few games support it and use it in a beneficial way? Too risky for them? Maybe they didn't think it was going to work that well and people would prefer the d-pad? If that's the case, well, Nintendo proved them wrong then because they invested more in that idea, they made it the main attraction for their new console, they designed all of their games around it, they pushed the idea that 3D games can be played better with an analog stick and created Mario 64 to prove that idea.

Someone had to take the risk and convince the gaming community that the analog stick was the only way to go and that the d-pad was not optimal for movement in 3D games. That's what Nintendo did first. And they weren't wrong.

Maybe Sega didn't bundle it with their console because they were still developing it when they released the Saturn? Maybe PD1 doesn't advertise that it works with it because it wasn't released yet?

You're making this grand (and stupid) assumption that just because Sega didn't bundle the controller with the system that they had no faith in analog controllers. That's not the case at all. If they had no faith in it they wouldn't have had so many games support it. They wouldn't have had analog flight sticks as well. They wouldn't have included it in the Dreamcast controller either.

There's a very blunt and realistic answer for why the Saturn wasn't bundled with an Analog controller. The Saturn didn't have a long enough life to bundle it with the system. I wouldn't be surprised if Systems that were being sold in 1998 were still systems they had produced in 1996. Had the system been selling better, they probably would have started including analog controllers. But the sad fact is by the time they would have started making those bundles came around, the Saturn was already deemed dead and Sega was hard at work prepping the Dreamcast.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

Maybe Sega didn't bundle it with their console because they were still developing it when they released the Saturn? Maybe PD1 doesn't advertise that it works with it because it wasn't released yet?

You're making this grand (and stupid) assumption that just because Sega didn't bundle the controller with the system that they had no faith in analog controllers. That's not the case at all. If they had no faith in it they wouldn't have had so many games support it. They wouldn't have had analog flight sticks as well. They wouldn't have included it in the Dreamcast controller either.

There's a very blunt and realistic answer for why the Saturn wasn't bundled with an Analog controller. The Saturn didn't have a long enough life to bundle it with the system. I wouldn't be surprised if Systems that were being sold in 1998 were still systems they had produced in 1996. Had the system been selling better, they probably would have started including analog controllers. But the sad fact is by the time they would have started making those bundles came around, the Saturn was already deemed dead and Sega was hard at work prepping the Dreamcast.

---

I think the mission stick was available at launch, so that could be what PD1s analog support was built for.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Soulis

In Sega-16 i don't think there is a respect for what Nintendo has done on the console market, at all.

---

This is not true. While there are many haters, as in any other forum, I've learned a lot about Nintendo's history and their consoles thanks to this very forum.
But, I might say, the Nintendo 64 is probably the most criticized console from Nintendo here, along with the Wii U.

Regarding the Nintendo 64, I think there's really a lot to be criticized about the system and its library; especially when you consider that you are in a forum dedicated to, basically, a 2D-only console and the Nintendo 64 pretty much was a no go for 2D games.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Soulis

Even in this thread i can see many posts that are worse than what you could read in places you seem to hate, like NintendoAge. Everyone seems to focus on the bad stuff the company did ignoring the good stuff completely. Same thing with their consoles. I thought this would be a better place to talk about retro stuff than others, i found this place because i was looking for detailed technical information and comparisons about retro consoles and i found some amazing threads and posters for that here. But i didn't expect such behavior as this, some of the posts here are as bad as what the fanboys you hate post, only the opposite they are hater posts. I get that there is a certain poster who irritates you but your answers are visible to everyone not just him.

---

As his posts also are.
And people aren't like bots, after years and years replying to the same stupid things, correcting the same false claims and seeing your threads getting ruined by the same guy you get a bit tired.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Soulis

Well, personally, i don't think Turok pioneered anything generally, but on a cheap console it did some things i hadn't seen before, mostly technically, not as far as gameplay goes. I mean those huge polygonal bosses (especially the Mantis and the T-Rex) looked like nothing i had seen on the PS1 before, except maybe the dinosaur tech demo on the Demo One disc (yes, i also had a PS1, although not a Saturn). I also loved the weapons and how some of those had cool animations and mechanical sound effects like the grenade launcher or the rocket launcher which would "unfold" after you equipped them doing robotic sounds. It had the best foliage effects i had seen up that point, like those 3D palm trees that you could even bring down, although it was a scripted animation not physics. But it's funny how when i first played Crysis and started chopping down trees, the first thing that came into my mind was Turok.

---

This pretty much sums up what I said about actual discussion being better than the pioneer-ish stuff. Good info and arguments here.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zz Badnusty

...so sad, no Bangaioh?

---

Sorry for that, just fixed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

Maybe Sega didn't bundle it with their console because they were still developing it when they released the Saturn? Maybe PD1 doesn't advertise that it works with it because it wasn't released yet?

You're making this grand (and stupid) assumption that just because Sega didn't bundle the controller with the system that they had no faith in analog controllers. That's not the case at all. If they had no faith in it they wouldn't have had so many games support it. They wouldn't have had analog flight sticks as well. They wouldn't have included it in the Dreamcast controller either.

---

Dreamcast was released after the analog stick was already established as a standard so it would make no sense to not have it.

As for the Saturn not having it as a standard because it wasn't ready yet... that's just an assumption. Maybe it's like that, maybe it's not. Here's another assumption, maybe Nintendo delayed their console all this time (it was in development just as early as the others) and the N64 was released until the analog was ready to be included as a standard? If that's true it only proves what i already said. That Nintendo had so much faith on the analog stick that they even chosen to delay the console itself for it. But that's probably wrong because it looked like it was ready long before the console launch, i mean i remember seeing pictures of the N64 controller in it's final form (with a bit different buttons) long before the launch.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Soulis

Dreamcast was released after the analog stick was already established as a standard so it would make no sense to not have it.

As for the Saturn not having it as a standard because it wasn't ready yet... that's just an assumption. Maybe it's like that, maybe it's not. Here's another assumption, maybe Nintendo delayed their console all this time (it was in development just as early as the others) and the N64 was released until the analog was ready to be included as a standard? If that's true it only proves what i already said. That Nintendo had so much faith on the analog stick that they even chosen to delay the console itself for it. But that's probably wrong because it looked like it was ready long before the console launch, i mean i remember seeing pictures of the N64 controller in it's final form (with a bit different buttons) long before the launch.

---

Or maybe they delayed the N64 because they literally had no launch software ready for launch. Hell even when it launched in late 1996 it was still pretty slim pickings software wise. Throw in that and documented hardware problems and it's no surprise they delayed it. They didn't delay it for some heroic leap of faith an Analog sticks.

And here's is pretty much everything of value that I remember was mentioned in our forums about the technical aspects of the PS1's Doom:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chilly Willy

Remember that the PC version graphics are only 256 color, and all shading is done by mapping the colors to existing colors that are not as bright, so as the light dims, everything gets really bad banding and loss of color. The PSX version doesn't have this problem (or the Jaguar version, for that matter). So its not just ambient lighting that's better, but ANY lighting at all.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chilly Willy

DOS Doom loads data for the level as you progress through the level. It keeps a 2 to 6 MByte cache in ram, but it's not enough for most levels, especially with higher levels and more enemies. People in the thread have ALREADY ACKNOWLEDGED that DOS Doom does this and that you can minimize this by using a high(er) end machine and or using software to cache the entire WAD file in ram outside the game. Source ports DO NOT change this! They ignore it since it's almost not noticeable on modern machines. Just run any modern source port from something like a slow CD to see this "quirk" is STILL PRESENT even today.
DOS Doom only supports 320x200 256 color graphics. Shading is done using COLORMAPS to map the 256 colors to less bright versions in the same palette. This leads to severe banding and loss of detail in lower light levels. People in the thread have ALREADY ACKNOWLEDGED this; one person stated they like the look. Source ports have since made changes to the renderer to look better using 15/16 bit or 24 bit modes.
DOS Doom uses 11kHz 8 bit sound effects. Modern source ports include updated sound effects for better sound. PSX Doom sound effects are commonly used as they were 22kHz 16 bit sounds.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chilly Willy

I'll admit that a good 486 won't show the loading issue under most circumstances, but the rest can't be refuted, only accepted as okay for the time. I can also admit that the PS1 had things that weren't as good as DOS Doom - namely edited textures and cuts to some levels. The music is kind of a toss-up: the DOS music depended greatly on your sound card, while many people don't care for the more "atmospheric" sound track the PS1 used. Other than a few specific sounds, the sound is clearly better on the PS1. Other than limited textures, the graphics are clearly better on the PS1. Part of that is due to DOS Doom being aimed at a PC with more memory and a faster CPU, but worse video and sound support. Pretty much everything else is opinion and preferences. I prefer source ports with different mods, but that was specifically disallowed by the OP for the purposes of the poll. Given the OP, I prefer PS1 Doom. The argument arose when certain people started making comments about PS1 Doom that had no basis in fact, not opinion.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sheath

So I take it nobody has a documented mention of whether Doom PS1/SAT is height mapped or polygonal?

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chilly Willy

It uses the same kind of map, what is different is the rendering engine. The PS1 rendering engine was changed to polygons. The exact details aren't known since Williams will probably never release the code, but I'm fairly certain it uses raycasting, but when you intercept something, you add a polygon to a list instead of rendering lines of constant z. The list could then be sorted, culled, clipped, and finally rendered.

---

And the games using the SlaveDriver engine had 3D levels, unlike ABF said:
http://www.giantbomb.com/slavedriver-engine/3015-2301/

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

Or maybe they delayed the N64 because they literally had no launch software ready for launch. Hell even when it launched in late 1996 it was still pretty slim pickings software wise. Throw in that and documented hardware problems and it's no surprise they delayed it. They didn't delay it for some heroic leap of faith an Analog sticks.

---

So you are saying both the console itself AND the analog stick should have normally be ready to go then? Shouldn't Sega have it ready too? I thought they thought of it first?

Whatever, maybe this, maybe that. We can never be sure. None of us are either Sega or Nintendo executives to know for sure. All we know for a fact is that Nintendo bundled the system with the analog stick and hyped the hell out of it way before launch. And it only became a standard only after the N64 was released. Both Sega and Sony had enough time to remove the old controllers from the market and start pushing their analog controllers as standards before the N64 launched. But no, all this shit happened after the already delayed N64 was launched and tested. This is another assumption but it looks to me like Sega and Sony just waited to see how successful the analog would be on the N64 as there was already a company testing it and taking all the risks. It was the right move, it would make no sense for them (as a business decision) to start investing in that idea, especially Sony who already were successful with the PS1 even without the analog.

N64: It isn't a fandom, it's a lifestyle.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Soulis

So the analog stick was ready then? Shouldn't Sega have it ready too? I thought they thought of it first?

---

I didn't say Sega thought of it first. I said they were all working on it around the same time. But go ahead, keep putting words in people's mouths and moving goal posts to keep your glass N64 house from shattering.

I think Sonic Team said they had the final design of the 3D control pad finalized around late 1995 early 1996 too btw. Sega probably didn't release it earlier or bundle it with the console because they wanted to release it with the flagship game it was being designed for, NiGHTS into Dreams.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Soulis

Whatever, maybe this, maybe that. We can never be sure. None of us are either Sega or Nintendo executives to know for sure. All we know for a fact is that Nintendo bundled the system with the analog stick and hyped the hell out of it way before launch. And it only became a standard only after the N64 was released. Both Sega and Sony had enough time to remove the old controllers from the market and start pushing their analog controllers as standards before the N64 launched. But no, all this shit happened after the already delayed N64 was launched and tested. This is another assumption but it looks to me like Sega and Sony just waited to see how successful the analog would be on the N64 as there was already a company testing it and taking all the risks. It was the right move, it would make no sense to start investing in that idea, especially Sony who already were successful with the PS1 even without the analog.

---

Actually we can know for sure due to interviews and magazine articles. Here's the article about the Saturn 3D Controller. I've posted this for you and ABF once before. Please try to remember it before you guys try to have this same stupid argument a year or so from now:

http://puu.sh/7kN54.jpg
http://www.outofprintarchive.com/art...-OSSM11-4.html

Key points:
-NiGHTS research and Development began immediately following Sonic and Knuckles completion.
-About 6 months in (around early summer of 1995), they realized they needed analog controls for the game to play well, so they started developing the 3D Controller.
-They went through about 100 designs
-There's absolutely no mention of the N64's controller.

So the basic fact is the Nintendo 64 had no influence on Sega's decision to create an Analog controller. They were working on it before Nintendo even revealed their analog controller.

Sega simply didn't package it with the system because they already had stock without it that wasn't selling. Sony later did package there analog controller with the PS1, but their system was actually selling so they had no stock to actually produce. If the Saturn was selling well, you can bet your ass they would have bundled it with the system. Sega did however bundle it with the flagship game they wanted to show it off with. So really that's showing just about as much faith in it as Nintendo showed with the N64.

And here's the source for why Nintendo delayed the N64:
http://www.nytimes.com/1995/05/06/bu...me-player.html

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by The New York Times

Mr. Lincoln said the delay was necessary to give software developers time to learn the new machine and to create suitable games.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

Or maybe they delayed the N64 because they literally had no launch software ready for launch. Hell even when it launched in late 1996 it was still pretty slim pickings software wise. Throw in that and documented hardware problems and it's no surprise they delayed it. They didn't delay it for some heroic leap of faith an Analog sticks.

---

Yeah, I bought the N64 near launch and had 3 or 4 titles to play until Shadows of the Empire came out in December. Then I had to wait a couple of more months for Turok. It really sucked that those games were being sold for $69.99 and they didn't deliver anywhere near that amount of gaming value. If the Gamecube didn't have Rogue Squadron II at launch, I may have never bought the console (or would have waited a year), after the ho-hum experience I had with owning the N64.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

Key points:
-NiGHTS research and Development began immediately following Sonic and Knuckles completion.
-About 6 months in (around early summer of 1995), they realized they needed analog controls for the game to play well, so they started developing the 3D Controller.
-They went through about 100 designs
-There's absolutely no mention of the N64's controller.

So the basic fact is the Nintendo 64 had no influence on Sega's decision to create an Analog controller. They were working on it before Nintendo even revealed their analog controller.

Sega simply didn't package it with the system because they already had stock without it that wasn't selling. Sony later did package there analog controller with the PS1, but their system was actually selling so they had no stock to actually produce. If the Saturn was selling well, you can bet your ass they would have bundled it with the system. Sega did however bundle it with the flagship game they wanted to show it off with. So really that's showing just about as much faith in it as Nintendo showed with the N64.

And here's the source for why Nintendo delayed the N64:
http://www.nytimes.com/1995/05/06/bu...me-player.html

---

I still don't see anything here that disproves Nintendo making/working on their analog stick just as early or even earlier than that. I also don't find anything here for me to stop giving credit to Nintendo for making the analog stick a standard during that generation. Because that's what i was giving credit for, not who worked on it first. Making something an industry standard is just as important, if not more, than inventing something new. If Nintendo didn't exist Sega would probably done it a bit later. Or Sony. But Nintendo did it first. It doesn't make them gods. Just something to give some credit for. Neither does it make Sega look any worse. I actually love both Sega and Nintendo about just as much, for different reasons each. (since you seem to think i'm a Nintendo fanboy).

Sony did make the better analog stick though (mechanically) and it was chosen as the standard later on, i'll give them that. The long N64 stick isn't nearly as durable. But in some games it works better because the further you push it, the bigger the resistance is (although subtle). The Sony analog doesn't have that "problem" but i can't play something like F-Zero X without the longer stick informing me how much exactly do i need to push the stick. I'm having difficulties playing the game on the emulator using the 360 analog while i can storm through it, beating most staff ghosts with the N64 controller.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Soulis

In Sega-16 i don't think there is a respect for what Nintendo has done on the console market, at all. Even in this thread i can see many posts that are worse than what you could read in places you seem to hate, like NintendoAge. Everyone seems to focus on the bad stuff the company did ignoring the good stuff completely. Same thing with their consoles. I thought this would be a better place to talk about retro stuff than others, i found this place because i was looking for detailed technical information and comparisons about retro consoles and i found some amazing threads and posters for that here. But i didn't expect such behavior as this, some of the posts here are as bad as what the fanboys you hate post, only the opposite they are hater posts. I get that there is a certain poster who irritates you but your answers are visible to everyone not just him.

---

It's a matter of Nintendo getting far too much credit for what they do. I myself enjoy me some Nintendo, but people make them seem like some sort of videogame Buddha. An enlightened thing with no faults whatsoever. I think we all, or at least most of us do appreciate the things Nintendo has done. However we are dispelling the myths and bullcrap that Nintentards created. So in this regard I stand by what I said, especially for Apple. I hate post Wozniak Apple.

Wait, Turok is the 'first' FPS to feature a fully formed world with jumping, swimming, outdoor areas and polygonal weapons?

Quake 1, 1996.

Also a much superior game with no fog.