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That's what makes him the worst kind of forum member. He says so much BS that could mislead any novice who wanders over here or lurks. He doesn't break any forum rules, so the best anyone can do is call him out on his nonsense.Quote:
Originally Posted by synbiosfan
This thread started out as amusing, but quickly turned to sad. You'd think the N64 was his first and only girlfriend.
AMAZING WRITEUP!!!
I like this one:
Quote:
10) "GoldenEye 007 (Aug/1997) on the N64 was the first console game to have dual analog support."
Reality check: Disproved by:
- Several of the Micomsoft XE-1AP Analogue Controller (1989) compatible games.
- Panzer Dragoon II Zwei (Mar/1996) (SAT)
- Descent (Mar/1996) (PS1)
- MechWarrior 2: 31st Century Combat (Mar/1997) (PS1/SAT)
- Descent Maximum (May/1997) (PS1)
Actually my Copy of Smash TV for my NES allows for two NES controllers at once for dual controller layout. However I do love me some ROBOTRON on my N64.
We understand what you are saying and i agree but i don't like how you exaggerate the effect way too much to make the console look even worse than it really is. In reality it would look like the original sprite filtered.Quote:
Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118
That's just way too blurry even for N64 standards. The few 2D games the console have don't look that bad.
Edit: Oh you meant textures, not sprites. In that case yeah this is how most N64 textures look. But not all games look like that. For instance, Banjo Kazooie uses many tiny textures that are placed together like puzzle pieces. Its inconvenient but its the correct way for the developer to overcome the tiny cache issue, without stretching a low res texture. I think many other RARE games did that. Probably Factor-5 games too but i'm not sure. And later Boss studios releases i assume. Dunno, some N64 games seem to have much better textures that others.
Unfortunately, Nintendo themselves seem that they stretched small textures. Although Majora's Mask has better texture quality than their previous releases.
The N64 could've been such a great system had Nintendo not handicapped the system graphics and went with CD Roms instead of carts. Hell Nintendo ended up abandoning carts in every home system since. And how many good 3D fighting games are on the N64? And IIRC they are look worse compared to VF2. Barone can you post some of the best looking fighting games on the N64? Nah I mean fuck that any fighting games on the N64 period.
Remember, its the 3rd console curse.Quote:
Originally Posted by Da_Shocker
The companies have outstanding success with their 2nd console, so they do whatever the hell they want with their 3rd console, because they think they're unstoppable.
I enjoyed Deadly Arts, specially its character creation mode that really lets you full customize the fighter, including choose all the command moves instead of only the appearance (like Soul Calibur). Also, Last Bronx is probably the better looking 3D fighter of the Saturn, but VF2 is indeed a better game.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Lf2hQA7NIQ
Like the Mega Drive, for example?Quote:
Originally Posted by azonicrider
Dare to compare:
The best looking fighting N64 game is by far Mace the Dark Age. Not as smooth (or as good) as something as Virtua Fighter 2 but the models are very good looking and detailed (especially lord Deimos) and the levels have all the kinds of 3D details, plus the backgrounds are some of the most detailed of that generation.
All the other fighting games on the console (apart from Bio Freaks and Mortal Kombat 4, which is a good port) look average at best.
Anyway, i sense some cherry picking in all those comparisons. Carmaggedon 64, really? You really picked the absolute worst looking N64 game to compare with any version? And all those other games are either bad or average. Hexen was considered a bad port. Quake was average at best.
Why not compare some good N64 ports like:
Shadowman?
Doom 64 (which was miles ahead the PS1 version and don't forget how AWFUL was the Saturn one)?
ISS64?
Bio Freaks?
F1 World Grand Prix vs the PC version?
Rush 2049 (now compare those graphics and draw distance with any PS1 arcade racer)?
Silicon Valley vs the laughable PS1 version?
Rayman 2?
Episode 1 Racer?
Hydro Thunder?
And some others, i can't remember everything...
I'll ask the same question: Dare to compare?
I mean there are good multiports on N64 but let's just cherry pick the average ones or even the worst ones against the best PS1/Saturn games like Quake 2 (which is considered one of the best ports on the console) and VF2 (probably the best looking Saturn game).
I smell BIAS. No reason for me to discuss anything else in this topic i suppose :(
I wouldn't necessarily call Doom 64 a port. It was an entirely new game.
But yes, better than other contemporary console Dooms by far.
Yes, the Mega Drive was an outstanding success, so the Saturn got cursed.Quote:
Originally Posted by maxi
Also I'm so glad that I'm using a computer with more RAM. To handle Barone's posts haha
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-S0BwVQ5Vo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1eaoMT1-9U
Two real hardware videos of two similar games both using the hardware well.
Doesn't get much fairer than this.
Sega Rally is a bit sad compared to these...
If you manage to pull your head out of your ass you'll realize that most of those ports I used were compared with the PC too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulis
I was using mostly RetroCompaq videos because the guy does a fantastic job in terms of comparing the best video cards available at the time, with proper hardware configs of the time.
If you have a look in his channel or in other similar channels you won't find the games you suggested. You know why? Because most of retro PC gamers don't give a FLYING FUCK about the N64 games.
I spent HOURS looking up for those videos. If you want to spend some time on doing the same (real hardware, decent quality, decent capture-only) for the games you suggested, great. Otherwise, go post crap somewhere else.
Hydro Thunder was in my original post but I lost it due to an expired token, so I had to restart the whole thing and end up forgetting about it. But, unlike you, ABF and the N64 fanboy community says, the N64 port has several simplifications and cuts. But, somehow, I'm biased for forgetting about re-including it in my second try.
Episode 1 Racer is not on the PS1 nor on the Saturn, so I don't see the point; but feels like one doesn't need a brain to worship the N64. The same for Rush 2049.
Doom 64 isn't the same game anymore. But a fair comparison is the one who favors the N64, right?
Who gives a shit about Silicon Valley? Geez.
Cherry pick? Look at your list again, man up and come back to me saying that I'm cherry picking stuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulis
And I smell a butthurt fanboy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulis
A few posts ago you told me that if anyone who doesn't know what a N64 is reads ABF's posts, he will think that the console is much better than it really is, right? Now what if the same person reads your posts and comparisons? You think it would be fair?
I cherry picked because you cherry picked. To balance things, you know. And i care about Silicon Valley. One of the best and smartest platform games i ever played. But i'll ask you the same question. Who gives a shit about Carmaggedon 64?
And no, i'm not gonna waste my time posting dozens of videos to prove a point. Its not me who made this thread in order to "clear up some things". I'm a delutional N64 fanboy after all, what can i do? Its you who, supposedly, know better and you made this thread to educate those who are delusional, like me. So, if you want your thread to be nothing more than N64 bashing, i'm not going to spoil it for you. I just thought that, since you look like someone who knows stuff better than others, your posts would be more objective.
I guess this place isn't much better than NintendoAge which most people here also bash.
I also thought you were more respectful to other posters in your posts...
You missed the joke. The Mega Drive was the 3rd console unless you count the in-between revisions (SG-1000/SG-1000 II and Mark III/Master System).Quote:
Originally Posted by azonicrider
So it should be the cursed one.
..no the guy is a pure asshole and even accused me of being a drug user after he said he had no problem with me..guy shifts moods too much for me..the guy has barely any respect for anybody on this forum except his butt buddy treks..anyway, if n64 didnt finish 3rd it should have..ps1 and saturn had far better libraries imo..make a top 25 of all 3 consoles, see whats better..but damn saturn did a good job vs its arcade counterparts in those videos posted by red baron which was sooooo hard work to find on youtube, look to right, see more, keep linking etc..Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulis
Well, most of the barely technical discussions I've read from NA were mind-boggling at best; but if you don't grasp the difference between this forum and NA, I think it says a lot about you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulis
They weren't accusing me like you did.Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulis
You still sound like a drug addict, by the way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennab
And what exactly are you doing here? Oh trolling a topic and its OP for no good reason, just like when you got perma banned and then got back with a fake account.
Like what?Quote:
Originally Posted by Barone
But i do... one is more biased against Sega and he other against Nintendo. At first i thought here things would be different since there are more smart people and less children (probably due to Sega not having a console fanbase for more than a decade, thus more "Retro"?).Quote:
Originally Posted by Barone
Technical discussions are still top. ;)
HahahahaQuote:
Originally Posted by Soulis
As a member of Sega-16 I find this comparison pretty nasty in many aspects, to say the least.Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulis
I was ignoring the joke, acting like it went over my head. The 3rd console curse applies to international consoles, no TV Colour Games or SG-1000s.Quote:
Originally Posted by Obviously
We kinda-sorta got the SG-1000 unofficially. Or at least a console that played its games: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telegames_Personal_Arcade :lol:
But I'm being silly with that.
I kind of want to get my hands on one of and see how ColecoVision games play with that controller.
..actually i was just giving my opinion to the pesron who for some reason thought you respected people on this forum WHILE posting about your thread, being on topic, giving my opinion and discussing the above videos you posted about how great vf2 on saturn is to arcade imo except the floors moving..Quote:
Originally Posted by Barone
You're so stubborn and obnoxious, no wonder why Joe banned you two times. I'd do the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennab
Please, tell us more about how me and my "butt buddy" Barone have personally slighted you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennab
Yeah, the 2D stuff on the system for the most part looks fine. I think I only ever noticed some slight blurring in a few games like Mortal Kombat Trilogy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulis
And later stuff like Banjo and Factor 5 games do look fine, I was talking more about the stuff that was out when the Saturn was still relevant.
I just want to say that the N64 Quake 2 might not be an exact port, but with the expansion pack it has some of the best graphics on the console. The textures are clean with hardly any distortion or blurring until you're right on top of them. I don't know why more companies didn't follow Rares example and use more clamped textures. Lot's of games did it on the Playstation and Saturn, but for some reason dev's did a lot texture stretching over large surfaces on the N64. I mostly blame Nintendo's crap libraries though. Games from groups like Factor 5 and Rare prove that the system had a lot more potential even with it's limited cache.Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulis
I believe that Rare found a way to double the cache size (double cycle?)by using software tweaks.
Here's an interesting article that talks about the blunders in the hardware design and the poor quality software tools provided by SGI.
http://digitalfantasy.angelfire.com/...fications.html
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118
Quote:
Originally Posted by old man
The technique they were using (especially Rare, since Factor 5 actually had its own unique and improved SDK AFAIK) is limited though. It's not like every other developer could apply it to their games, especially ports, in an extensive way.Quote:
Originally Posted by gamevet
Making very small pieces of textures and reusing them over and over again will only work for games designed around certain kinds of environments and, even so, you're only mitigating the texture quality problem, the texture variability will still be limited by the cart storage.
There's a reason why titles such as Rogue Squadron, Battle for Naboo, The Infernal Machine, Banjo Kazooie and Conker's have a tons and tons of grass, sand, mountains and caverns; 'cause those earthy themes don't need complex texture patterns, you can abuse of texture repetition too.
Have a look (real hardware shots from a NeoGaf discussion):
http://i.imgur.com/5KORrDN.jpg
Despite the fog, It still looks good because the mountains, the "roads" between buildings (down there) and the buildings surface are using the micro-texture technique. It gives you an impression of good level of detail since they aren't stretched out.
But if you pay attention, those are very primitive textures and there's almost not variability in the scene.
Here's the same technique combined with a superior renderer from Factor 5:
http://i.imgur.com/p8vQx1Q.jpg
You have the floor using the said technique and the "walls" using the same good quality texture repeated to death.
And here's the same concept applied to a less "friendly" environment and with lower res:
http://i.imgur.com/03LeJ0A.jpg
Conker's work more with lighting in order to make the environments look less drab (from real hardware video), the textures themselves aren't that spectacular or varied though:
http://i.imgur.com/8A9IHB4.png
Now compare to these:
http://i.imgur.com/YFWVttn.png
http://i.imgur.com/oOyd6I1.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/qY18EVe.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/WGDapih.pnghttp://i.imgur.com/qRVt1YQ.png
http://i.imgur.com/KmrdEKl.pnghttp://i.imgur.com/YrNNJYK.png
The "third console" curse is not that accurate. It's more about having a successful console and then getting cocky and bungling up the follow up console in some way.Quote:
Originally Posted by azonicrider
Sega did it with the Saturn, MS did it with the Xbone (and recovered a bit), Sony did it with the PS3 (and recovered).
Nintendo did it with the wii-u for sure. But the n64? It sold pretty well. Not as good as the PSX, but it certainly did better than the Saturn. It's quite possible Nintendo's sales were helped by Sega's missteps with that console for sure, as were Sony's sales.
I'd say their "console curse" around that time was the Virtual Boy. Which was an interesting tech demo that had no place ever being released as a retail product.
An even closer comparison would be RR64 with RRR since NST's game is inspired from the earlier and more "arcade-ish" RR games (of course RRR came out in the early day of PS1 and doesn't push the console to the max).Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamahl
But it incorporates graphical details only seen in RRT4, like the motion blur effect on replays.Quote:
Originally Posted by Folco
Yeah, RR64 is kinda like a compilation of the previous games with some additions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barone
The general graphical style is closer to the earlier games though.
Yep. Very good game IMO
When i do comparisons, i usually compare the best looking games of one console with the best looking games of the other. That's the fairest for me. RR64 looks good but it also doesn't make full use of the hardware like RR Type-4 does for the PS1 (or at least that's what i think, the game is one of the best looking racers for the PS1). Games like World Driver Championship or (ΙΜΟ) Rush 2049 (a bit ugly art direction but very complex backgrounds) or Beetle Adventure Racing, or even Stunt Racer 64 (with it's crazy animated backgrounds and long view distance) are much more representative of what the N64 can do if used properly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Folco
Generally, Japanese 3rd party developers simply couldn't code properly for the N64. Japanese support sucked for the console in general but this was like a curse. Even Nintendo themselves were surpassed by the west in showing what the N64 was capable of. I mean the only game that can barely be squeezed in the last spot of a Top 10 best looking N64 games list that is made by Nintendo themselves is Majora's Mask and, personally, i don't think i would place it at all.
Namco did a commendable job with RR64 but when you see smaller/unknown developers like Boss Studios or crappier developers like Atari-Midway making more advanced (graphically) software, you know that something is not right.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulis
IIRC Namco didn't wasn't the lead developer on RR64, Nintendo Software Technology Corporation mostly developed the game for the N64 with assistance from Namco.
http://www.game-assault.com/reviews/rr64review.shtml
Quote: "Ever since the PlayStation was released in the US, Ridge Racer has always been the racing series that all other racing titles were compared to. Ridge Racer and its sequels have always been regarded as the best arcade racers. The problem was that if you wanted to play any of them, you had to own a PlayStation. Now, thanks to a licensing deal with Namco and the coding work of NST, Ridge Racer has finally shown it's face on the Nintendo 64. Thankfully, despite being on a different console, very little has changed."
Well, that's even worse since at least Namco has the excuse of not having experience with the console at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by stu
Anyway, here are the best looking racing games (technically) on the N64 IMO. The art direction in some may not be great but these are a good demonstration of the console capabilities as far as racing games are concerned (polygons, draw distance, overall detail)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKKi1eiP0xI
Dat bridge at 1:15 :P
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9CphvhE4oA
The art direction is too "midway-ish" but you can see the long draw distance and detailed "busy" backgrounds.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYX2IDjKNJI
The graphics themselves are not great but the levels are HUGE with plenty of things to see (and for the console to render)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0vsBMN21cU
Check out the draw distance and animated background elements in both levels shown.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWK6REHqykU
Here's an odd one. This game looks surprisingly good considering the developer... I mean, if the Superman 64 developer could do this, then imagine what Namco or Sega could do if they used the N64 to it's fullest.
By criticizing RR64 for it's graphics and then saying that US developed games are better than ones in Japan is a poor example imo. Not only did Nintendo effectively develop RR64 themselves, it was also developed in the US, not in Japan.Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulis
As for your last point I agree, I believe Sega would have made better use of the N64 hardware .... had they used the chipset in their own console instead of the Saturn. ;)
Since there is now an N64 thread to discuss this next point in I've brought this over from the PSX Driving Games thread that ABF posted (since that thread already has way too much N64 adulation in it)
Quote:
Originally Posted by A Black Falcon
I've actually played quite a few N64 games (about a dozen or so) via emulation so Yes I can say that I've certainly tried N64 games and I have found a couple of games that I do like on the N64, so I think it's clear that I've "given the N64 such a chance, and played lots of N64 games" like you practically accused me of not doing.
Let me be clear, I don't have an issue with the N64 or most of it's games, what I take issue with is N64 fanboys (like you) who go around claiming that the N64 was the greatest ever and then crap on everything else, just like you have in this thread and a whole bunch of other threads on this forum.
Well, the SG-1000 actually did release in some other Asian markets, Australia, and Italy, so it did get an international release, just a very limited one (if you don't count the Telegames system, which is defensible because it wasn't sold as a SG-1000 and they released no games for it.)Quote:
Originally Posted by azonicrider
RR64 looks pretty good, but yeah, it isn't one of the best-looking N64 racing games, the ones you mention look better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulis
However, one correction -- Ridge Racer 64 is actually a first-party Nintendo game programmed in America by Nintendo's then-new Seattle studio NST. It's really too bad that after Project H.A.M.M.E.R. (Wii)'s cancellation NST's major-console 3d-games team was shut down, they did good work -- RR64, Wave Race: Blue Storm, 1080 Avalanche. NST does still exist, but they only do 2d stuff (Mario vs. Donkey Kong), Virtual Console work, and such.
Oh, and RR64 wasn't NST's only port of a third-party game, they also did the Game Boy Color port of SNK's NES game Crystalis. I haven't played that one, but it is supposed to be a poor port. Much more successful was their GBC-exclusive Bionic Commando game, Bionic Commando: Elite Forces. That game is still one of my favorites in the franchise.
But anyway, RR64 is in large part based on the PS1 games, but NST did add stuff, such as that third track, most obviously.
RR64 was NST's first and only N64 game, so they didn't have much experience with the console. It turned out pretty well despite that. I'm sure they got help from the rest of Nintendo, but it was that new studio's first N64 game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulis
There is no such thing as "too Midway-ish", they were one of the better publishers of the generation... and of course Rush 2049 is my favorite game ever made in which you drive a vehicle, and probably my most-played TV console game. It also looks incredible. As far as visuals go World Driver Champsionship is also important to mention for its good graphics and realistic style, though, yeah.Quote:
The art direction is too "midway-ish" but you can see the long draw distance and detailed "busy" backgrounds.
Titus did usually make bad games, but Roadsters is solid, yeah. They also published two other N64 racing games, Automobili Lamborghini (decent graphics, but somewhat bland gameplay), and Carmageddon 64 (usually mentioned as one of the worst N64 games, but I find it fun; flawed, and below average, but fun).Quote:
Here's an odd one. This game looks surprisingly good considering the developer... I mean, if the Superman 64 developer could do this, then imagine what Namco or Sega could do if they used the N64 to it's fullest.
This may once have been true, but this site probably has gone downhill a bit more recently... have there been as many of those technical discussions recently, for example? And some people who posted in them have left (kool kitty89 hasn't posted much in some time, for instance). I like those Sega hardware debates, they're fun.Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulis
So you don't have a problem with the N64, you just have a problem with anyone who actually likes the N64? That's not much different.Quote:
Originally Posted by stu
Quote:
Originally Posted by A Black Falcon
The highlighted bit had already been posted earlier. Might help to keep up with the thread.
No I think I made myself quite clear, I don't like morons like you shitting up non-N64 threads with N64/Nintendo worship. Do you understand now?Quote:
Originally Posted by A Black Falcon
It looks better on a real screen with the darkness adjusted a little lower.
edit: relative to the thread
Yeah, Factor 5 also ditched Z-buffering to allow for a higher pixel fill rate and it helped to lessen the burden on the hardware. The geometry engine can use more polygons, since Z-buffering and mip-mapping aren't killing the memory usage and the vertex abilities of the RDP. This allowed Factor 5 to use smaller texture samples, since they were being applied to smaller polygons, compared to something like Turok with it's large polygons that have stretched textures applied to them. Since they were using smaller texture sizes, they could apply 2 textures to a polygon.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barone
Yeah, the textures in Rogue Squadron aren't the most complex thing going for that generation, but the geometry engine was really good for the time. The cost of memory had dropped, so the carts were much bigger by then (up to 64 MB) compared to the pitiful 8 MB carts that were being used by the games in the 1st year of the console's existence. Still, the Playstation had the highest quality textures of the 3 console during that generation.
Rogue Squadron looks great for 1998, but Battle for Naboo is clearly the better-looking game. Better graphics, less fog, better textures, etc. I know most people seem to disagree but I think BfN beats Rogue Squadron in gameplay as well as graphics, too, though I love both games.Quote:
Originally Posted by gamevet