Beggar Prince: Official Thread

Hello.

Thanks, Melf, for posting the superb article. You're aces.

I don't have a great deal of time to post a long and prolific message here, at the moment - but I'd like to take just a moment out to address what seems to be the biggest concerns of several of you. I can understand the mixed feelings about the news of this third release. However, I'd like to try and make you all understand how and why it came about.

*** Why didn't SFT fix the save bug before now? ***

We indeed had some very skilled MD programmers working on Beggar Prince, to free it from the buggy and otherwise problematic bonds that C&E had left attached to it when originally releasing the game in Taiwan circa 1996. However, and as I have stated numerous times before, we simply did not have a programmer who was skilled enough with the game's very peculiar save / load programming method to even begin to try rewriting it. Even if such a programmer had been available, the cost to do the necessary work would have been too high.

It was, in fact, only six months or so ago that I was finally able to find a programmer who even begun to understood Beggar Prince's unique save game programming - because, as I have also mentioned before, the routine it used hadn't been used before on any known Sega Genesis / Megadrive game. The programming and hardware work required to fix the save routine was not cheap, and in fact required a lot of time and engineering to accomplish. After that, came several months of intense testing on just about every model of the Sega Genesis or Megadrive that you can imagine.

** Why didn't SFT provide better box-art for the first and second production runs? **

The budget was never there. Please keep in mind that by "budget", I don't just mean the cost to have new art drawn. In addition to this, "budget" means that we have to pay for all of the insert, cartridge label and manual resources to be re-prepared for a new printing.

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That said (and I apologize for my being brief):

The changes and additions to the third production run of Beggar Prince were undertaken solely because I wanted to overcome the issues most addressed by our customers and fans, because to deliver the best quality product is my main concern, to achieve customer satisfaction.

In fact, since we are not charging more money for the new edition of the game, we are now losing money on Beggar Prince. Why?

* Save / load routine software and hardware development costs
* Prototyping and testing costs, plus costs to purchase additional systems for testing
* New art and printing costs
* Increased shipping costs at the post office

As well, we have engineered an improved, removable SRAM battery holder for the game boards. This has increased costs for each game board.

I don't expect everyone to take this with a smile on their face, even after my explanations, but I simply wish all of you to know one thing - the third production run of Beggar Prince and its additions and updates are solely based on my consideration to deliver the best quality product possible. If I had simply produced more copies of the original game with no changes, knowing that NOW we could have fixed the problems, I'd have been very upset and ashamed of myself - for that would have been the pursuit of trying to save money versus trying to give everyone the best possible product.

You don't have to agree with what I've done, and I'm sorry if you are upset, but I can't do anything but be honest about it.

That said, thanks EVERYONE for your continued interest, support and dedication. While even Sega itself believes the Genesis - Megadrive to be dead, we all know much better. :) :)

Never let dreams die!

Yeah. I guess I won't buy the first run of a SFT game ever since there will always be things that can be done to make it better in the future and I'll never know if you'll change it or not. I really, really, really wish I had not purchased the first run on this game.

This was not done for your fans, because your fans already have the game. Asking us to repurchase the game (like Melf's idea) is simply retarded. I should not have to sell my existing copy on eBay. And I couldn't do that in good conscience anyway, knowing that it is the flawed, inferior version. I don't think you'll sell all 900 copies, especially with others selling the shitty version on eBay.

We are now taking pre-orders for the third production run of Beggar Prince, directly from beggarprince.com. Orders will begin shipping to customers in November, 2007.

Thank-you for your attention.

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Originally Posted by Joe Redifer

Yeah. I guess I won't buy the first run of a SFT game ever since there will always be things that can be done to make it better in the future and I'll never know if you'll change it or not. I really, really, really wish I had not purchased the first run on this game.

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I don't know what you guys want, seriously. When it was released, everyone complained about the compatibility issues. That's fixed, and everyone still complains. How could they have fixed it a year ago when there was no way to do so? I can't believe that people would have been happier if he had just printed up another 900 copies of the same version as before.

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This was not done for your fans, because your fans already have the game. Asking us to repurchase the game (like Melf's idea) is simply retarded. I should not have to sell my existing copy on eBay. And I couldn't do that in good conscience anyway, knowing that it is the flawed, inferior version. I don't think you'll sell all 900 copies, especially with others selling the shitty version on eBay.

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So the only people who want Beggar Prince already bought it? I doubt that. I think there are plenty of people who still want a copy. I'm keeping my first run copy, and I want one of these as well.

Seriously, listen to what you're saying. What would have had him do? Go forward in time a year to find someone who could fix the code, bring him back to do so, and then release the game? Unless someone here has a time machine they're not sharing, I don't see how that's possible. The fact that he's invested so much time and effort into something that didn't even have to be done is admirable, and I simply can't believe that there are people complaining about him not fixing something that he tried and could not do at the time, because he was going to be able to fix it a year down the line.

I wish I had your crystal ball. I could make a killing at the track.

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Originally Posted by Melf

When it was released, everyone complained about the compatibility issues. That's fixed, and everyone still complains.

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Wow. So my cartridge will automatically work with the 32X and/or Sega CD attached now? THAT'S AWESOME! Oh wait... no it's not fixed like you said unless I fork over another $40. My cart is still the flawed, shitty version. Like I said, if there were a program where I could upgrade for a small amount of $$$, things would be better and I'd actually be excited. Please quit kissing Brandon's ass (he seems to be kissing yours as well).

There was no mention anywhere of the first run's incompatibility until other people brought it up. Something like this should have been in the manual. I don't think it was necessary to wait a year into the future to fix the issue.

Either do it right the first time or don't bother. None of the half-assed efforts, please. SFT has lost a lot of my confidence. Why should I trust that anything they put out in the future will be 100% complete?

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Originally Posted by Melf

So the only people who want Beggar Prince already bought it? I doubt that. I think there are plenty of people who still want a copy.

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I didn't say that, I said I don't think he'll sell all 900 copies. It's not like those who already have a copy will be clamoring to pay full price for the new and updated version, and from what I recall it took a very long time to finally sell off the second run. Are there 900 more potential buyers out there? I don't think so.

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Originally Posted by Joe Redifer

Wow. So my cartridge will automatically work with the 32X and/or Sega CD attached now? THAT'S AWESOME! Oh wait... no it's not fixed like you said unless I fork over another $40. My cart is still the flawed, shitty version. Like I said, if there were a program where I could upgrade for a small amount of $$$, things would be better and I'd actually be excited.

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I don't know what to tell you then. I have the same version and mine works fine for me.

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Please quit kissing Brandon's ass (he seems to be kissing yours as well).

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No need for insults. I thought you were better than that. :shame:

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There was no mention anywhere of the first run's incompatibility until other people brought it up. Something like this should have been in the manual. I don't think it was necessary to wait a year into the future to fix the issue.

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Again, this is a valid concern, but if it pissed you off so much, why didn't you just return it and get a refund? No one forced you to keep the game.

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Either do it right the first time or don't bother. None of the half-assed efforts, please. SFT has lost a lot of my confidence. Why should I trust that anything they put out in the future will be 100% complete?

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Because they're obviously out to rip you off, right?

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I didn't say that, I said I don't think he'll sell all 900 copies. It's not like those who already have a copy will be clamoring to pay full price for the new and updated version, and from what I recall it took a very long time to finally sell off the second run. Are there 900 more potential buyers out there? I don't think so.

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I think it will sell well. You seem to think that only those on this board bought the game. I seriously doubt that. I'm sure there are plenty of people who waited once they found out about the compatibility issues and are willing to give it a shot now. I'm also sure there are people who missed out the first two times as well.

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Originally Posted by Melf

I don't know what to tell you then. I have the same version and mine works fine for me.

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Really? With your 32X and Sega CD attached?

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Originally Posted by Melf

No need for insults. I thought you were better than that. :shame:

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Hey, I calls it like I sees it. But this seems to be your attitude towards everyone and anyone in the "Genesis industry".

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Originally Posted by Melf

Again, this is a valid concern, but if it pissed you off so much, why didn't you just return it and get a refund? No one forced you to keep the game.

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I complained like a bitch when my saves randomly disappeared due to my Sega CD being attached. No refund was ever offered, only an offer for me to send my cart back and have the battery checked. It is a valid concern because the game was made better now at no benefit to me and I am also stuck with the below pre-school level artwork. To my knowledge SFT does not offer refunds.

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Originally Posted by Melf

Because they're obviously out to rip you off, right?

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No, because they may change it in the future and I'll get shafted again for daring to buy the first run. I really don't think you are capable of grasping how some of us are obviously feeling about this based on your response to this post and Zeebe's posts. Maybe you aren't kissing ass. Maybe you just can't comprehend why anyone who spent $40 on an incomplete product could ever be dissatisfied once said problems have been fixed at no benefit to current owners.

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Originally Posted by Melf

I think it will sell well. You seem to think that only those on this board bought the game. I seriously doubt that.

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I never said that, either. But again I don't think there were close to 900 people not buying this game due to the 32X/Sega CD issues and/or artwork. I'll give it the benefit of the doubt and say 100. On top of that there will probably be at least 200 or more stragglers who haven't heard of it yet or haven't gotten around to buying it. If it sells all 900, I will be very surprised.

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Originally Posted by Joe Redifer

Really? With your 32X and Sega CD attached?

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My model 2 Sega CD is always attached, and I have had no problems with my saves. I do have to remove the 32X though.

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Hey, I calls it like I sees it. But this seems to be your attitude towards everyone and anyone in the "Genesis industry".

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My "attitude" has landed me over 50 interviews with people in the industry for this site alone, with a dozen more for other websites and game magazines. If you think that's ass kissing, then that's your opinion. Insults and shot-from-the-hip comments don't work if you want to make connections and produce content.

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I complained like a bitch when my saves randomly disappeared due to my Sega CD being attached. No refund was ever offered, only an offer for me to send my cart back and have the battery checked. It is a valid concern because the game was made better now at no benefit to me and I am also stuck with the below pre-school level artwork. To my knowledge SFT does not offer refunds.

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You were offered a replacement.

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Originally Posted by CMA Death Adder

Such a problem has not been reported to me before... and I've not experienced it from any of our copies of the game. Though every copy of Beggar Prince is tested thoroughly before being shipped out, it is possible that something could happen to the cartridge during shipping... or that the result is due to a confliction with your hardware.

If you'd care to send your cartridge back to us via media rate mail, I'll personally look into the problem myself. If a viable solution for your cart cannot be reached, I'll send you a replacement.

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No, because they may change it in the future and I'll get shafted again for daring to buy the first run. I really don't think you are capable of grasping how some of us are obviously feeling about this based on your response to this post and Zeebe's posts. Maybe you aren't kissing ass. Maybe you just can't comprehend why anyone who spent $40 on an incomplete product could ever be dissatisfied once said problems have been fixed at no benefit to current owners.

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No, what I don't understand is how on Earth you expected SFT to know in 2006 that they would be able to fix a particular problem in late 2007 and then remove said problem before the intitial release. Why didn't you just lend them your time machine so they could go and make sure that the problem - which he has explained twice already could not be fixed at the time - could be taken care of? You're only reading what you want to read and are completely ignoring what he said. By saying BP was "incomplete" at release, you're implying that he knew the code could be fixed at the time and simply chose not to. But then, since you already have a time machine, I guess a mind reading device isn't much of a stretch.

I got an email saying they are taking preorders but when I go to the site I see no way to submit my order.

And again you fail to understand what I am pointing at. What will be "not able to be fixed" in any future games he releases that is suddenly able to be fixed in the future? Why would I ever buy a first run product from him if he may fix it in the future? I don't want to be stuck with the shitty version again, so I will bold this for you: Why should I buy the first run of any SFT game when it may be improved in the future? I still don't think you understand that.

Issues that affected, say, Super Thunderblade and Doom which were not able to be fixed at the time could have been later. They weren't. Why not? Should Sega and their 3rd party companies have gone back with their newly learned programming techniques and changed all of their previous releases for the better each time they learned something?

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Originally Posted by Melf

You were offered a replacement.

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Yes, but not a refund like you said I could get.

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Originally Posted by Melf

No, what I don't understand is how on Earth you expected SFT to know in 2006 that they would be able to fix a particular problem in late 2007 and then remove said problem before the intitial release.

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You know they could have waited a bit and gotten better box art. No time machine needed for that. And as for the other thing, it's called a learning experience. Cut your losses on your previous release and take what you have learned to your next. Look at the controversy this has caused today. Nobody would have been the wiser. Again, I think you are unable to even wrap your mind around how I feel being stuck with the inferior product.

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Originally Posted by Melf

Insults and shot-from-the-hip comments don't work if you want to make connections and produce content.

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Yeah, I know what it gets you because most of the people interviewed love their egos stroked. The tough questions are rarely asked.

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Originally Posted by Joe Redifer

And again you fail to understand what I am pointing at. What will be "not able to be fixed" in any future games he releases that is suddenly able to be fixed in the future? Why would I ever buy a first run product from him if he may fix it in the future? I don't want to be stuck with the shitty version again, so I will bold this for you: Why should I buy the first run of any SFT game when it may be improved in the future? I still don't think you understand that.

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No, I understand it fine. It's just so unreasonable a stance that I can't believe you even defend it. I'm surprised you still even play video games, as no company does what you suggest. Should I ask Activision for my money back because the new version of Marvel: Ultimate Alliance on 360 runs better and includes stuff the original one I bought at release doesn't? Should I ask Bethesda to exchange my launch copy of Oblivion because the Game of the Year edition includes content mine didn't? Using your logic, no one would buy anthing at release, ever.

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Issues that affected, say, Super Thunderblade and Doom which were not able to be fixed at the time could have been later. They weren't. Why not? Should Sega and their 3rd party companies have gone back with their newly learned programming techniques and changed all of their previous releases for the better each time they learned something?

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C'mon, how can you compare Sega and its 3rd parties at the height of the Genesis' run to Beggar Prince today? Given the sheer amount of games released at the time, how would this even be possible? Apples and oranges man.

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You know they could have waited a bit and gotten better box art. No time machine needed for that. And as for the other thing, it's called a learning experience. Cut your losses on your previous release and take what you have learned to your next. Look at the controversy this has caused today. Nobody would have been the wiser. Again, I think you are unable to even wrap your mind around how I feel being stuck with the inferior product.

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The only "controversy" I've seen have been two people on this board. Again, you =/= the Genesis community. I know that if SFT had not done this release, you'd question their next game, since the first version of BP had bad artwork and compatibility issues. HOW CAN I TRUST THEM TO GET IT RIGHT THE 1ST TIME? In fact, I think you made this very complaint when the game was initially released. So, damned if they do, damned if they don't.

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Yeah, I know what it gets you because most of the people interviewed love their egos stroked. The tough questions are rarely asked.

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I'm sorry I don't ask the questions you want to see asked. I guess that's just the way things happen when you're an ass kisser. I regret that I fail to live up to your high expectations, but I'm sure I'll get over it.

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Originally Posted by Melf

The only "controversy" I've seen have been two people on this board. Again, you =/= the Genesis community.

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4, if I count correctly. 2 have defended it. Granted, this forum doesn't have a ton of activity so it doesn't speak for everybody either way.

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Originally Posted by Melf

I know that if SFT had not done this release, you'd question their next game, since the first version of BP had bad artwork and compatibility issues. HOW CAN I TRUST THEM TO GET IT RIGHT THE 1ST TIME? In fact, I think you made this very complaint when the game was initially released. So, damned if they do, damned if they don't.

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I made the complaint that I was stuck with the inferior version? Well I guess that's true. I don't think it is "damned if you do, damned if you don't", I think it is "damned if you do it half-assed". I never complained about getting it right "the first time" until now. Only now has that come into the equation. Like I've said twice now, I wouldn't be complaining if there were a program in place that would allow me to cheaply upgrade. You still haven't given me any reason why I should buy a first run of any future SFT games. Your interpretation of my logic is weak.

I have a game that I am making. It runs, but not tremendously well. The box art is pretty bad as well. I have no way to improve either right now since my programming skillz suck and my artwork skill in no better than that of a 4 year old. I **may** be able to improve both in the future if I stumble into the right people, but there's no way in hell I'm going to put the effort into finding them now because I haven't gotten this week's allowance yet. Should I release it now anyway? If I did, "I know" you would praise the hell out of it, guaranteed. Why? Because it's a new game for the Genesis! That's all that matters. Maybe I'll release the game now, and if I improve it later, I'll just sit back and laugh at the fools who bought the shitty version.

I apologize if I have a lower tolerance for mediocrity than you do.

I was going to leave this between you two and not say anything yet, but now i'll make this short.

No one is telling you to buy the new one! Sure, you have had some problems with the one in the past, and now you think your ENTITLED to a cheap upgrade, but nothing on SFT's site said "Oh, and if we fixed some compatibility issues and create some new box art, you can buy an upgraded copy for a small fee!"

I mean, I bought it too, and I'm fine with this. Am I ready to purchase it again? No. I've gotten my copy and am happy with it. It's not perfect, but I wasn't expecting that. I'm satisfied.

I know your one to be outspoken, but this seems to be a bit of a stretch to start a full argument.

True, SFT can do what it wants. But what Ken seems not able to understand is why I would feel the least bit cheated. I feel I should have waited. I definitely should have. And when the next game comes out from SFT, I will wait for the issues to be fixed with it because I'm sure it will have many bugs since it is programmed by starving Koreans or starving Taiwanese (I can't remember which, but I remember that they're starving). Ken cannot comprehend why I'd wait for these issues to be fixed on the next game. He thinks everyone should buy the first run right away and cannot even fathom why anyone would even think about waiting.

I wasn't expecting the original to be perfect, either. But now that a new and improved version is out, I do feel a bit cheated. Is this really so hard for people to comprehend?

I feel as if Ken is trying to tell me "Hey Joe, fuck you, they make games for the Genesis. You don't. Therefore they are great. You don't make games for the Genesis, so your opinion means nothing".

EDIT: Something I've been meaning to mention but keep forgetting is that C&E must be pretty goofy, because all of the games that were built before the 32X even existed still work and save with the unit attached (Sega CD model 1, too). How did C&E write a save routine that somehow would be interfered with by the 32X and Sega CD? This doesn't really have anything to do with the current issue, but would it be possible to have rewritten the save routine to something non-C&E and instead handle it like a regular game does? Basically just rewrite the save code from scratch and delete C&E's routine altogether.

Given the issue, I understand the disappointment. I would rather have the new edition myself and am on the fence about buying one. That said, SFT has made the right choice in my opinion, and I would have done the same.

Let's get real here : this isn't the first time a company has done this, and nothing was really harmed. Companies with far larger staff and budgets than SFT have (now more than ever) do version updates on console releases. You can take the approach that you demand perfection the first time, everytime, but life is going to let you down more often than not. And those selfsame 'big names' rarely put nearly as much effort in quality assurance as SFT has. I know that among the 400+ carts I have ever owned, my copy BP is likely unique among them in being individually tested, etc. And this is a labor of love from what I see, one that is good for the scene and worth supporting by the people who claim to love it. Nobody is buying breakfasts of cocaine and caviar each morning off of BP sales.

Besides, there is nothing wrong with the version you have now, which was the best available at the time you bought it. When Iron Maiden released an enhanced, remastered cd version of Live After Death, I didn't demand a refund on my original vinyl from the 80's or swear to never buy one of their records again (in fact, now I'm quite glad I have it). That type of logic should ultimately lead you to swearing off ever paying for a movie, etc.

That said, I would really love the option to buy just the new case & art.

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This doesn't really have anything to do with the current issue, but would it be possible to have rewritten the save routine to something non-C&E and instead handle it like a regular game does? Basically just rewrite the save code from scratch and delete C&E's routine altogether.

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Code stacks up and often has funny ways of affecting other code in unexpected ways when you start monkeying around with that sort of thing. That is why many of the games you own (and your DNA) still contain 'junk' code like levels from earlier builds, etc.

Personally, I'm in two minds about this third pressing. I don't understand why savefile compatability is being touted as such a major upgrade when really it's little more than inconsequential and is merely a remedy to a problem that should not have existed in the first place. Secondly, irrespective of any "upgrades", shifting another 900 copies will prove to be very tricky, I'm sure.

That being said, I don't think the savefile fix was supposed to get so much attention from the general public, and people advertising this pressing as "the one that works properly" really doesn't help anyone; it gives first-timers the impression that the product is of low quality and people who already own the game like Joe Redifer will think it's a scam.

I wouldn't buy a copy of this game because it really doesn't interest me, but if I did and it didn't work I think a refund upon return of the game would be more than fair if the customer didn't want to (or couldn't) exchange for a working copy.

So, yeah, there's my two cents.

While apple makes ipod nano for 4 usd each... A run of 1000, 2000 or even 8000 copies isn't enough to reach low production prices (say it would be 1000usd each for 8000 ipods). You can reach good prices for 100 000 copies minimum, yes.

You may understand that the save thing did not came from SFT but from the original team... You may understand that a programmer involved in a such "fix" is paid 1000usd per day, if any found...

You may also understand that sometimes, things are not fixable anyway (megadrive technology is same as today's one, it can be same complexity... It's not because it is an old game that its easy to manufacture or develop).

Well, all those vectors seems to have pushed the SFTeam to do their best at time and budget. Now they fixed a problem for some reasons... Everybody should be happy for the next buyers.

Cmon, be happy.

Some people want the moon on a stick

You are no worse off than you were two days ago before this new batch was announced. If you didn't think it was a terrible product then, a few seconds convieniece not having to change system to play on for saving, and a different artwork should make little difference. Just think of this new release as a special edition, or a re-release like the classics or platinum range on modern consoles.

The box art does make a difference as it clearly defines them as two products. I now have the "inferior" editon and as a semi-die hard collector means I have to shell more of my cash (I was going to put hard earned cash, but that would be a lie) to get the better one. At the end of the day it is SFT's decision and if they want to try and squeeze some extra cash out of folks like myself, then that is their decision. Ulitmately I do have the final say on whether or not I buy it.

Well, I will more then likely be getting the updated one. I'm a collector to the core. :)

I have had a long talk with CMA Death Adder about this, and I must say I am more forgiving now. The fact that it has costed a lot of money, so much he is losing on it, proves (at least to me) that he does it for the fans. A die hard collector like me shouldn't complain too much about tossing in another $40, and the regular players are probably just fine with the old version. On the other hand, a refund system like Joe asks for is very suitable for the situation, especially since his battery holder was faulty. It would be one step backward, but two steps forward for SFT. All in all, it becomes a big learning lesson for the company, as always with first time productions. Listen to Iron Maiden's and Metallica's debut albums and see how bad the production is. You still have it, but you also learned a lesson never to do the same again. Hopefully, all runs of BP have beared enough fruit for SFT to never do the same mistake again, whether it is about money or time.

I agree with fonzie, playgen and mr Smith posts.

I think those who really feel so aggrieved should just buy the new version, stop trying to resist the urge to buy it, you know you want it ;)

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Originally Posted by Vasteel

When Iron Maiden released an enhanced, remastered cd version of Live After Death, I didn't demand a refund on my original vinyl from the 80's

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Two different formats there. My argument is more akin to an audible glitch in the middle of the song on the first pressings, but fixed for the second.

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Originally Posted by Vasteel

I would really love the option to buy just the new case & art.

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At the very least it would be nice to be able to download a large image file or PSD so we could print out our own insert using our own paper and ink. This wouldn't cost SFT much in bandwidth and nothing in printing. Maybe others could buy the new insert for $5 plus postage or something. Replacing the manual isn't necessary and the cart sticker would be too tricky.

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Originally Posted by username

it gives first-timers the impression that the product is of low quality and people who already own the game like Joe Redifer will think it's a scam.

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I don't think it's a scam, I hope that's not how I'm coming off. I'm just bummed that I have the lesser of the two versions of the same game.

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Originally Posted by playgen

Just think of this new release as a special edition, or a re-release like the classics or platinum range on modern consoles.

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I can't think of this new one as a "special edition" because aside from the artwork, it's not. It's a bug fix, not a special edition. If it had extra stuff in it like new levels/scenarios and other stuff like that, then I wouldn't raise such a huff.

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Originally Posted by Zebbe

refund system like Joe asks for

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I know what you mean in the context you provided, but I just want to make it clear to everyone that I am NOT looking for a refund.

I think Joe is entitled to a replacement if his cart is faulty.
Would it be wrong to ask for a replacement now?

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I can't think of this new one as a "special edition" because aside from the artwork, it's not. It's a bug fix, not a special edition. If it had extra stuff in it like new levels/scenarios and other stuff like that, then I wouldn't raise such a huff.

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Seriously?
I think if they had added loads of content to the game then people really would have been upset.

All this new version has over the other one is a different artwork. The save problem really was a non-issue blown out of proportion, if you're too lazy to unplug a 32x then thats really your problem! :) Ok I can see it being a bit annoying, but its hardly anything to get worked up about.

And was the original artwork totally unacceptable?, I don't think so, It certainly didn't put people off buying it so it can't be that bad. People have commented that it looks like a small child did it, but thats unfair. On a technical level its competent, skill and work went into it, but stylistically it falls short of what looks cool to most people these days. The main character wearing a skirt and having socks isn't a good look, and the clouds and trees don't blend in well to the rest of the art. It is good for what it is, but just not to most peoples taste.

The fact that new artwork makes a huge difference to you and how you feel about the original isn't really their fault, more of a facet of your demaning personality :)

Please stop saying "you" as if I'm the only one in the world who feels a bit bummed about this. When I first saw the article which had the new artwork, I looked at it and thought it was better. I didn't start thinking "ZZOMG FUKKIN BRANDON!!!" or anything like that. I barely cared and like I said, I thought the new artwork was pretty cool. The only reason I did care was that there were bug fixes that directly affected me.

The thing that really got me going was Ken's seemingly inability to understand what I was trying to say. Will this happen on the next SFT game? Why would I buy the first run of that when it could happen? Like I said, I don't want to be left with the lesser version. Re-releases like "Player's Choice" or whatnot are not even in the same category of what I am trying to say here. Big companies had large staffs of testers, and I've never really known a Genesis game to get a bug fix later in its run, just changes like Revenge of Shinobi.

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Big companies had large staffs of testers, and I've never really known a Genesis game to get a bug fix later in its run, just changes like Revenge of Shinobi

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Well exactly - Super Fighter Team is not a big company, I wouldn't even call it a "company" really, as that just implies its more than it is. Having all bugs removed from the game before it was ever released would have put up the cost for people buying it, simple as that. I'm sure he doesn't have tons of money to throw at this project, especially when there was no guarantee the inital 300 would have even sold. If he hadn't released when he did, it may never have been released at all - I'm sure any crappy part time job would have earnt more money in less time than was spent on the game.

Fact is you and others expect more than is realistic for making megadrive games at a time when megadrive is a dead format. If they were guaranteed to sell tens of thousands of copies and were making lots of money out of it then sure complain away. But to whinge at someone who has put effort into releasing a game for a console nobody else was prepared to make anything for, risking time and money that could be spent doing far better things, just seems silly to me.

I think Joe is absolutely right and this is just not correct.
Of course people who haven´t bought the game yet are happy to get the superior version, but that does not make it any better for those who bought it a year ago. Saying we can just sell our old copies now and pay another 40,-$ is absolutely unacceptable.Changing the product now is just the most unfair thing to do.
And I also have a hard time believing that SFT lost money with the third run; this sounds ridiculous to me. This whole "I do it just for the fans"-talking seems more and more unlikely to me. Even though I believe that you have a liking to old consoles, SFT is still a company aiming at profit. I remember how some people felt cheated because it was not made clear enough that the game had compatibility-problems with CD-X etc. They felt it was on purpose not mentioned clearly. And I am beginning to believe they were right. Now 900 additional copies are produced; knowing very well that you can get owners of the first to runs to buy another copy now (=pay you another 40,-$).

I was really enthuisiastic about SFT and tried to let it be known everywhere. But this has finally hurt my trust.

Lastly I am disappointed with Melf´s overly positive view on this matter, the article reads like a commercial from an official SFT-publication. I expected more from you, Melf, than doing a huge advertisement. I don´t know your income, but for some people spending another 40,-$ is not a minor issue, especially when they feel cheated in such a shabby way. It´s a rip-off.

Im sure the 100 employees of Super Fighter Team are laughing behind the wheels of their Ferraris at those suckers having to buy the latest version of their game.

For crying out loud, its a different cover and ONE bug fix that means you dont have to unplug your 32x or CD, thats all!
In no way is the first version suddely worthless, if it was so bad to begin with why did you ever buy it?

You'd think the new cart was made from gold and grated its owner eternal life from the fuss some people are making.

You think sega never made any bug fixes and changed releases? they did it often, but just didn't tell everyone about it. And there were far superior artwork for different regions too, oh no US Sonic is terrible because the Euro one has better artwork, Sega are pure evil!

We´re not talking about 100 employees with Ferraris, we´re talking about one president of a company who released a beta-version first, selling it to people who trusted him no matter how dubious the offer seemd at that time, and then improving the product for a later run. We are talking about doing 900 new copies opposed to the 300 of last time, well knowing that many old customers will pay 40,-$ a second time. We are talking about a flaw that has been fixed, but that has not even been made absolutely clear in the beginning.
We are talking about bad buisiness habits.

Of course I bought it to support SFT and to have a new RPG on MD; but I did not expect to see a superior version later. This has been only done to make more money.

He's done the best he could, fixed things people complained about, yet people complain anyway. You can't please everyone, particularly people who enjoy complaining and will pick away at the smallest little thing.

Your original purchse hasn't dissapeared in a puff of smoke, your not being held at gunpoint forced to buy a new one. If you care more about the look of the box than the gamplay which hasn't even changed thats your problem. Products improve all the time, the original has been avaliable a whole year as you said, its not like the improved artwork and save fix was avaliable from the beginning, if you want to be angry be angry at yourself for being so fussy.

Whatever you say. I say it is a rip-off and the worst he could do, you salute him for what he did. Go ahead and buy it! I don´t believe what he says, it seems fishy, and it certainly is unfair to old customers. I see it as a move to reise sales of the third run.
I guess being naive is a blessing, playgen.

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Originally Posted by 108 Stars

Whatever you say. I say it is a rip-off and the worst he could do, you salute him for what he did. Go ahead and buy it! I don´t believe what he says, it seems fishy, and it certainly is unfair to old customers. I see it as a move to reise sales of the third run.
I guess being naive is a blessing, playgen.

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We will have to agree to disagree.
I just don't understand all the anger myself, the game hasn't changed, you knew what you were buying at the time, to me nobody has been ripped off.
I guess it comes down to how much importance you place on art style and unplugging a 32x/CD unit, personally I don't put much value in that, to others it seems its the most important thing about the game.

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Originally Posted by Joe Redifer

True, SFT can do what it wants. But what Ken seems not able to understand is why I would feel the least bit cheated. I feel I should have waited. I definitely should have. And when the next game comes out from SFT, I will wait for the issues to be fixed with it because I'm sure it will have many bugs since it is programmed by starving Koreans or starving Taiwanese (I can't remember which, but I remember that they're starving). Ken cannot comprehend why I'd wait for these issues to be fixed on the next game. He thinks everyone should buy the first run right away and cannot even fathom why anyone would even think about waiting.

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No, what I cannot comprehend is how you expect a company to know that a problem that cannot be fixed at the time of release will somehow be able to be fixed in the future. You're assuming that SFT knew the problem could be fixed at the time and decided not to do it. How do you know that the next game they make will share these circumstances? You're making a sweeping generalization that has no base. You seem to be so sure that they knew the problem could be fixed and didn't do it, that you've written off games they haven't even made yet.

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I wasn't expecting the original to be perfect, either. But now that a new and improved version is out, I do feel a bit cheated. Is this really so hard for people to comprehend?

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I understand how you feel, as one always wants the best version of something one buys. That's not hard to comprehend. What is hard to comprehend is how you expected a company to anticipate that it would be able to solve a problem in the future could not be resolved at the time of release. Death Adder has stated twice already that the compatibility issues could not be fixed at the time because of cost and the lack of a programmer with the knowledge to do so. Should he have just said "well, the game is up and running, and everything's ready to go but the compatibility issue. We should just shelve the game indefinitely on the off chance that sometime in the future we'll find someone who can fix it."? He went with what he had at the time, so I don't see how you can fault him for that.

The only real complaint I can see as legit here is the lack of disclosure about the compatibility issue. It should have been made clear on the BP site which variations of the Genesis didn't work with the game. That's a 100% valid complaint.

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I feel as if Ken is trying to tell me "Hey Joe, fuck you, they make games for the Genesis. You don't. Therefore they are great. You don't make games for the Genesis, so your opinion means nothing".

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No, I'm trying to tell you that business isn't as clear cut and black & white as you'd like. Companies make decisions based on what information is available at the time, and they can't always please everyone. Some people are always going to be pissed off no matter what happens.

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Originally Posted by username

I wouldn't buy a copy of this game because it really doesn't interest me, but if I did and it didn't work I think a refund upon return of the game would be more than fair if the customer didn't want to (or couldn't) exchange for a working copy.

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I agree completely. If you bought the game and weren't satisfied at the time, you have every right to demand a refund. That being said, asking for one over a year later because a better version came out is just silly. Should I ask Microsoft to refund my $400 because they've released Xbox 360s that have an extra heatsink and HDMI output? Mine didn't have that when I bought it launch.

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Originally Posted by Fonzie

You may understand that the save thing did not came from SFT but from the original team... You may understand that a programmer involved in a such "fix" is paid 1000usd per day, if any found...

You may also understand that sometimes, things are not fixable anyway (megadrive technology is same as today's one, it can be same complexity... It's not because it is an old game that its easy to manufacture or develop).

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People seem to be conveniently dismissing this fact. It costs money to do what SFT did, and they absorbed the cost without adding to the price of the new version. Like I said, he didn't have to fix anything. He could have stopped with the second run of 300 copies, or he could have just printed up 900 more copies of the same.

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Originally Posted by Mr.Smith

Ulitmately I do have the final say on whether or not I buy it.

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Bingo. You want to make a statement? Say it with your wallet. Joe, Zebbe, and you all have the right to not be happy with this situation, and you have every right to decide against buying future SFT products. It's another thing entirely though, to imply deception and thievery without any proof. I knew what this news would set off the moment I found out about the new release, and I can understand why some people would feel cheated about having an inferior version. What I don't accept is that they think this new version was done on purpose in order to just boost sales.

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Originally Posted by Joe Redifer

At the very least it would be nice to be able to download a large image file or PSD so we could print out our own insert using our own paper and ink. This wouldn't cost SFT much in bandwidth and nothing in printing. Maybe others could buy the new insert for $5 plus postage or something. Replacing the manual isn't necessary and the cart sticker would be too tricky.

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This seems very fair. Providing the new insert for download would help things, and it shouldn't be too hard to do.

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I don't think it's a scam, I hope that's not how I'm coming off. I'm just bummed that I have the lesser of the two versions of the same game.

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Then that's all you had to say. You didn't have to go and insult my integrity and that of the site.

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The thing that really got me going was Ken's seemingly inability to understand what I was trying to say. Will this happen on the next SFT game? Why would I buy the first run of that when it could happen? Like I said, I don't want to be left with the lesser version.

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How do you know this will happen with the next game? You can make this argument for just about every single game that comes out, yet I'm sure you still buy games.

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Re-releases like "Player's Choice" or whatnot are not even in the same category of what I am trying to say here. Big companies had large staffs of testers, and I've never really known a Genesis game to get a bug fix later in its run, just changes like Revenge of Shinobi.

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PC games get patches all the time, as do Xbox 360 and PS3 games now. Many companies go and release better versions of their games all the time, like Activision did with Marvel: Ultimate Alliance (who's downloadable content bricked many 360s), Bethesda with Oblivion, and Activision again with Call of Duty 2. Hell, console makers do it all the time with hardware. The 360 premium unit just got an extra heatsink and HDMI output, and the console's only 2 years-old.

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Originally Posted by 108 Stars

Lastly I am disappointed with Melf´s overly positive view on this matter, the article reads like a commercial from an official SFT-publication. I expected more from you, Melf, than doing a huge advertisement. I don´t know your income, but for some people spending another 40,-$ is not a minor issue, especially when they feel cheated in such a shabby way. It´s a rip-off.

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It's called a preview based off a press release. The industry has been doing it for decades. ;) They're designed to spur interest in a product, but not completley define the final product, as it hasn't been released yet. If you read the article, then you know that I said we would be adding more info as it comes, and we are even going to re-review the game when the new version ships. Please at least give me the benefit of the doubt when it comes to telling the whole story. As a longtime reader, I think you should know by now that I'm not going to tell just one side of the story.

I'm surprised at how I've been attacked during all of this. Sega-16 is not in anyone's pocket, nor do we favor anyone in particular. A new version of BP was announced; we reported it. That's all.

And I'm sure you're no more disappointed with my positive attidue on this matter as I am with some people's negativity. If you consider this to be a rip-off, then don't buy it, plain and simple.

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we´re talking about one president of a company who released a beta-version first, selling it to people who trusted him no matter how dubious the offer seemd at that time, and then improving the product for a later run.

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So you know for a FACT that this whole scenario was done with an ulterior motive? You have absolute proof that it was all a deception designed to steal your money?

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We are talking about doing 900 new copies opposed to the 300 of last time, well knowing that many old customers will pay 40,-$ a second time.

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The first run of the game was 600 copies, and the second 300. This new run equals both of those. Again, you're saying that SFT printed up as many copies this time as they did of the entire 1st and 2nd run, just to make you buy a second copy?

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We are talking about a flaw that has been fixed, but that has not even been made absolutely clear in the beginning.

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This is a legitimate claim, as I've stated before. You're on the money here.

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We are talking about bad buisiness habits.

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I don't think it's necessarily "bad" business habits, as it is a part of the learning process. As Zebbe said, hopefully SFT learned a lesson, and this situation won't happen again with future releases.

Well, it can´t be helped now anyway. I do not like the decision, but I can´t do anything about it. I just hope it won´t happen again with the next release. No use talking over spiled milk. I think Brandon has at least seen that this is a thing that is not taken positive by everyone.

At least it would be a gesture to offer a high res-scan of the new cover for download. That can´t be too much to ask.

In my opinion this really is ridiculous, there is no reason for anyone to be going mad like they are, its over reacting.

Anyone who saw the original product payed 40$ for what they got and seemed for the most part happy with it...

Now that they've changed the artwork, (big deal) and the saving with 32X (honestly who gives a damn, are you that petty and lazy) some here are up in arms!

Tonnes of irrational and derogatory terms are now being banded about, saying the original artwork was done by children etc and even joe mocking ken and the site.. From any run in I've have with you in the past you've proved to be childish, and the devaluation of a petty debate regarding very little to defamation is really sad.

From what I've seen Ken genuinely just seems to be the most excited megadrive fan I've ever seen, he is clearly the biggest fanatic of us all, he went to all the effort to make this site. He is consistent and he calls out crap too, so Joe just because someone isn't agreeing with you don't start banding around the childish insults...
I had to afford a chuckle when you started mocking the activity of the forum when you post practically twice as much as anyone on it.

One final thing to consider.

If CMA knew that people were unhappy with the artwork and that the save states problem (a minor thing) could be fixed why should he just go ahead and sell the inferior version again?? Why would he not want to give the megadrive fan who wanted to purchase this game the best?

Because some peoples feathers would be flustered because their megadrive collection as a trophy cabinet of boxes is more important than actually playing the game?

Come on guys the game is the same, I will experience the same thing all of ye did when ye played it, so give the guys a break, yer ungratefulness is astonishing

Well, I broke down and finally preordered the game for the final production run...

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Originally Posted by 108 Stars

At least it would be a gesture to offer a high res-scan of the new cover for download. That can´t be too much to ask.

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Personally I think that this is a great and fair idea. Maybe SFT could offer to sell & ship copies of the new box art at a reasonable price. I am happy to support SFT in their endeavours, however, am not so happy to fork out $40 for a minor upgrade of a product I already own.

I also agree with Bomber when he says this has got out of hand. Insulting Sega-16 for being pro-Mega Drive is akin to insulting the NHL for being too pro-hockey. This place is awesome and, aside from Super Thuder Blade being rated a 10, nobody should have any real complaints. As Oscar Wilde said in his court case: "One man's poetry is another man's poison." While another run of Beggar Prince should be a celebration, the minor upgrades do make me feel that I bought an "inferior version".

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Originally Posted by Mr Smith

This place is awesome and, aside from Super Thuder Blade being rated a 10, nobody should have any real complaints.

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Ugh. You just had to bring that up? :p I still rue the day that review was posted, and I think I'll spend the rest of my life trying to convince people that STB is barely a 4/10.

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Originally Posted by Melf

It's called a preview based off a press release. The industry has been doing it for decades. ;) They're designed to spur interest in a product, but not completley define the final product, as it hasn't been released yet. If you read the article, then you know that I said we would be adding more info as it comes, and we are even going to re-review the game when the new version ships. Please at least give me the benefit of the doubt when it comes to telling the whole story. As a longtime reader, I think you should know by now that I'm not going to tell just one side of the story.

I'm surprised at how I've been attacked during all of this. Sega-16 is not in anyone's pocket, nor do we favor anyone in particular. A new version of BP was announced; we reported it. That's all.

And I'm sure you're no more disappointed with my positive attidue on this matter as I am with some people's negativity. If you consider this to be a rip-off, then don't buy it, plain and simple.

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First about the rip-off: You´re missing the point: I won´t buy it, don´t worry, because I think I´ve been ripped off by getting a beta-version in the first place. The rip-off has already taken place, no need for a second round for me. Spending another 40,-$ would just be the peak of it. Owners of the old version should get a discount.

But as I agreed before, it´s no use debating that anymore

Now more importantly about the article itself:

Please don´t take this as a personal offense.
Melf, I beg you to be a bit self-critisizing. You have been attacked because of how you wrote the article.
What disturbs in this kind of an article is that it just reads like a very long advertisement disguised as news. What Joe meant was that you were overly positive and how the article read was exactly like the website was in someone's pocket. The choice of words was just so damn enthuisiastic and praising that it did not read like an article about a press-releaser, but like an article on SFT´s very own website; like you were just telling one side of the story as you put it.

This was just not a good way to do an article for a non-biased website like Sega-16; in fact it seemed like the most fanboyish thing on the site. Please try to keep up with a critical view on things and all is fine. I think the praising way you wrote the article added a great deal to frustration.

BTW, why doyou want to re-review BP? the game´s content has not changed.