Who is better at gameplay these days in regards to EAST VS WEST devs teams?

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Originally Posted by Kamahl

Apidya plays pretty well too, even if the graphics are unpolished. I also adore Tyrian and Raptor. They aren't very well balanced but sometimes you gotta screw balance in favour of just ridiculous fun. Oh and Super SWIV, that one is pretty good in all areas.

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Raptor and Tyrian are great, Raptor particularly (I love that game!), but both are American games, not European. :)

As for actual Euroshmups though, most deserve the poor reputation that the term "euroshmup" has among shmup fans, but I do like some. My favorite's probably Firepower 2000 (aka Super SWIV) for SNES, which is well-balanced and great fun. I agree, that's one of the very few great euroshmups.

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Originally Posted by NeoZeedeater

European shooters are quite varied. You have very replayable Jeff Minter stuff that's inspired by American (Atari/Williams) arcade games, the whole subgenre of thrust based games, and also type of sidescrollers that earlier post is talking about. There are plenty of flawed games but the region has seen a lot of quality and different styles.

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Jeff Minter's games are indeed fantastic, I'm something of a fan of his games... but they mostly aren't traditional shmups. Has he ever actually done a standard scrolling shooter? Llamatron 2112 is one of the best arena shooters ever, though, and Tempest 2000 is the best into-the-screen shooter on my list, but they aren't quite the same thing as a Gradius; different categories, somewhat. But sure, if you count them in the genre it helps Europe's case more than anyone else.

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Originally Posted by The Jackal

Oh shit, Resident Evil Survivor. I must be the only person on the face of the planet who actually likes that game.

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That game is pretty awful, though...

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Originally Posted by Thief

^ lol no. Them were serious flaws with Euro shmups. No joke. ie. go to the shmup forum where guys there play shmups like their lives depend on it until they achieve that 1cc or high score, and see what they tell you? (Answer; they keep replaying Japanese shmups like they have infinite replay value, as evident by highscore table and forums chit chat; and avoid + make fun of Euro ones like the plague)

PS. that topic was done by Bullet Magnet. A guy from the shmups forum. Not some casual from Racketboy forum.

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Jeff Minter aside this is mostly accurate.

damn, might finally be time to play through Witcher 2 & 3...gave up early on 1 on steam, lost momentum in fetchquests. how are the 360 ports?

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

Raptor and Tyrian are great, Raptor particularly (I love that game!), but both are American games, not European. :)

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Is there such a category as the US-shmup? I mean other then referring to games like defender and such. Tyrian and Raptor play like euroshmups (except super fun), perhaps location based names aren't that appropriate.

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Originally Posted by ABF

Jeff Minter's games are indeed fantastic, I'm something of a fan of his games... but they mostly aren't traditional shmups. Has he ever actually done a standard scrolling shooter? Llamatron 2112 is one of the best arena shooters ever, though, and Tempest 2000 is the best into-the-screen shooter on my list, but they aren't quite the same thing as a Gradius; different categories, somewhat. But sure, if you count them in the genre it helps Europe's case more than anyone else.

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Considering the term "shmup" (I hate that word) originated in the UK and was first used for any kind of shooter (the earliest case in Zzap I noticed it used for was for the European Defender clone Dropzone), I would say Minter's games are traditional shmups. But yeah, if you want Gradius type games, that's not really his thing.

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Jeff Minter aside this is mostly accurate.

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I think you're jumping to conclusions. In the past year you mentioned not even having played a Commodore computer. You're missing a lot of Euro-shooters if judging by just consoles and IBM PCs.

I recall reading a bit back on difference in game design philosophies between the West and the East. And the answer was the East start their game development with gameplay (ie. Miyamoto not moving forward with Mario 64 until gameplay of Mario in 3D was fully locked first), while the West start game development with story or world first (er, I'm pretty sure every Bethesda and BioWare game I've played fits this profile perfectly... and maybe that explains why Laura Craft moves like a robot on bad gameplay medicine in the first 3D world game for PS1?).

And, well, yeah. Sounds about right to me. ... Sadly, this is what the gaming audience prefers these days too, so... yeah, no wonder Japan is struggling in today's gaming market! :o

I don't think that is a 100% for any region. Kojima's games have nice visuals, but the storyline and controls are pretty bad. I'm not a big fan of the Metal Gear games, because of the poor clunky control schemes.

Peter Molyneaux's games are all about good user interface and level designs. He's legendary as a Western developer.

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Originally Posted by Kamahl

Is there such a category as the US-shmup? I mean other then referring to games like defender and such. Tyrian and Raptor play like euroshmups (except super fun), perhaps location based names aren't that appropriate.

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There isn't really a term for US shmups, no. There aren't as many of them in the post-crash era as there are European or Japanese shmups, so they never got their own name. While in the precrash era lots of American static-screen shooters were made, in the post-crash era it has been a rarely-seen genre outside of indie PC games. There are a fair number of those, including the ones from Apogee and Epic in the early to mid '90s, the other games by the guy who made Raptor (Demonstar and its sequels, that is), and more, but not nearly as many as Europe made, much less Japan.

It is true that American shmups often have health bars, like European ones, but do you think they're really the same? Something like Raptor or Overkill ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5gwPzefurs ) doesn't seem quite the same as what you usually see from Europe, health bars aside...

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Originally Posted by NeoZeedeater

Considering the term "shmup" (I hate that word) originated in the UK and was first used for any kind of shooter (the earliest case in Zzap I noticed it used for was for the European Defender clone Dropzone), I would say Minter's games are traditional shmups. But yeah, if you want Gradius type games, that's not really his thing.

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Regardless of where the term comes from though, it is usually used to refer to scrolling shooters specifically...

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I think you're jumping to conclusions. In the past year you mentioned not even having played a Commodore computer. You're missing a lot of Euro-shooters if judging by just consoles and IBM PCs.

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Sure, I haven't played Amiga or C64 games, but ask any serious shmup fan, they'll tell you exactly that -- and I'm sure some of them have played those European computer games. And are their C64, Amiga, etc. games really so different from the console or PC versions?

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Originally Posted by Thief

I recall reading a bit back on difference in game design philosophies between the West and the East. And the answer was the East start their game development with gameplay (ie. Miyamoto not moving forward with Mario 64 until gameplay of Mario in 3D was fully locked first), while the West start game development with story or world first (er, I'm pretty sure every Bethesda and BioWare game I've played fits this profile perfectly... and maybe that explains why Laura Craft moves like a robot on bad gameplay medicine in the first 3D world game for PS1?).

And, well, yeah. Sounds about right to me. ... Sadly, this is what the gaming audience prefers these days too, so... yeah, no wonder Japan is struggling in today's gaming market! :o

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This is sometimes true and sometimes not.

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

but ask any serious shmup fan, they'll tell you exactly that

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I have been playing the genre pretty consistently since the ‘70s, and grew up playing North American, Asian, and European ones. I would hope I count as a serious fan (even though I'm much more into platformers) ;)

While I'm not one to tell others in a forum what to talk about and not, but the shmup chit chat I used was a clear cut example of what I meant with this topic. Since that's one example where the West clearly bombed while the East clearly ruled (as in, there's nothing left to discuss. History written in stone. End of story. End of line).

And as something from the past, this genre is not in the spotlight in today's gaming anymore either. And I'm more interested in researching the present. Not the past. I already know enough of the past in this topic. So I really see no need to talk about anything old. I'm just looking for modern day examples that helps better define the quality of and development process of gameplay related things for the WEST & EAST.

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Originally Posted by gamevet

I don't think that is a 100% for any region. Kojima's games have nice visuals, but the storyline and controls are pretty bad. I'm not a big fan of the Metal Gear games, because of the poor clunky control schemes.

Peter Molyneaux's games are all about good user interface and level designs. He's legendary as a Western developer.

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Well obviously I'm lumping everything into one big average when I say the EAST VS the WEST. Course there are exceptions all over the place. ie.
nobody knows Rare's development process since they are very secretive and let no one in their offices.

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Originally Posted by NeoZeedeater

Considering the term "shmup" (I hate that word).

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I hate it too. But it's what most know it as. Otherwise, when I'm at shmups.com or Gradius forum, I use the Japanese term "STG." And when I'm on modern day forums, like a BioWare forum, then I make sure to mention "2D scrolling shooters" or something.

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

This is sometimes true and sometimes not.

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Again, of course there are exceptions. I'm looking at the majority. ... That, and the fact that the West usually lacks in more refined gameplay in their games from what I've played is another reason for me to assume so.

I've tried looking for that article again, but no luck so far. Just more things that got me side tracked...


But since you already said exception, do you know of any exceptions where the West started on a new IP and right away said "Lets lock the gameplay down first."?

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Originally Posted by Thief

But since you already said exception, do you know of any exceptions where the West started on a new IP and right away said "Lets lock the gameplay down first."?

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I'm sure it's happened many times, but id and their engine-first focus might be a good one to mention here. From Commander Keen to Rage, John Carmack's programming genius always ensured that id games play very well. The Keen games play as well as anything in the genre from any region, Doom is a legend because of its incredible gameplay more than anything, etc.

A lot of blind assumptions here. Totally romanticizing the idea that Asian developers are all about gameplay refinement first, and western devs are not.

Clear bias, and indefensible when objectively looking at the heap of shitty and clunky games both regions have spawned over the years in all kinds of genres.


You want to see western gameplay focus? Play a Valve, Blizzard, or Paradox game. Look at the indie scene compared to Japan's output.

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Originally Posted by Knuckle Duster

A lot of blind assumptions here. Totally romanticizing the idea that Asian developers are all about gameplay refinement first, and western devs are not.

Clear bias, and indefensible when objectively looking at the heap of shitty and clunky games both regions have spawned over the years in all kinds of genres.


You want to see western gameplay focus? Play a Valve, Blizzard, or Paradox game. Look at the indie scene compared to Japan's output.

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Blind assumptions my ass. Now you're just pissing me off. But again, nobody looks at games from a gameplay design perspective. I know I didn't until 2006 when I started playing my first SRPG FFT, then 2nd Vandal Hearts 2, then 3rd Shining Force 3. And while I was playing SF3 that my eyes opened and seen all the massive flaws of FFT and finally started looking at gaming from the gameplay perspective more and more up till the present. So this isn't something that just popped out of my ass overnight. I've been looking into this topic for some time.

So yes, it started by comparing 2 Japanese games. And not so the EAST VS WEST bias as you say. First my eyes were open to the garbage of Square in the RPG gameplay field, then I started seeing it in all other games I played and revisited from then on too. And then the rift happened. The great divide in quality of gameplay between East and West came to sight more and more before my eyes. So again, not an overnight thing. And I'm still seeing it as I'm playing current gen games too. But sadly the only new games I've played and put in a ton of time are from BioWare, Bethesda and From Software. And from these games I've played, these trends between East and West still ring true. As nothing from BioWare and Bethesda that I've played say gameplay was locked down first, then everything else VS what I played from From Software, where the impression that gameplay came first actually exists. (Maybe this is why character creation & face detail in Mass Effect/Skyrim are so much better then Dark Soul series, where in DS series fans still cry about it's character creation as if it's the most important thing in a videogame. And in DS series character models still don't have animated mouth movement. lol. Which again says better focus was spent elsewhere)



But anyway, in those gameplay focused companies you've listed. Have you played them enough to know how tight and balanced the gameplay actually is too? And compared them to other games in their respective genre? If so, then dive into more detail and tell me all you know. Lets finally talk about gameplay and gameplay tighness that matches virgin tight hole tightness.

You need not look past Starcraft, Dota, or Counterstrike to find this superfluous and dramatic, epiphany-causing 'tightness & balance' bullshit you're cooking your brain cells on.

I mean, you're sampling FromSoftware, who have made a string of low budget action titles with janky as fuck game engine code, rigged to run like ass on most platforms, before and after the Souls series... and pitting them against narrative driven BioWare or Bethesda RPG titles? Shit son, I never knew gameplay in an RNG dice rolling simulator and how it compares to action games with no graphics budget mattered so much to merit this deep and definitive introspection about the abilities of game developers based on their race. You should write a thesis on this shit, then print it out, and use the paper to roll a blunt when Trudeau legalizes it.


There is no basis for your point in any broad context, such as EAST VS WEST. It's absurd. There are plenty of developers in Japan, and the west who make awesome games. There are plenty of busted shit games too. The vast majority of kick-ass indie games that are driven by innovation to gameplay or presentation, these days, aren't Japanese. So again, the only way your point makes sense to me, is if you're blinded by some nostalgia or bias love for Japanese games.




How can anybody think the west doesn't handle gameplay first, when it's inventing e-Sports all over the place.

How can anybody look at shit like Minecraft, Fez, Rocket League, Ori, Journey, Sonic Racing Transformed, Terraria, Geometry Wars, DOTA, CS:GO, Unreal Tournament, X-COM, etc. and make the case that the west doesn't lock down or give a shit about gameplay balance or the tightness (whatever the fuck that means to begin with. responsiveness? Fuck off, I don't care.)

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Originally Posted by Thief

]Well obviously I'm lumping everything into one big average when I say the EAST VS the WEST. Course there are exceptions all over the place. ie.
nobody knows Rare's development process since they are very secretive and let no one in their offices.

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What exactly is this average. Yeah, if you're looking at Shmups, the East if going to have more of them, because they are a more accepted genre in the region, while the FPS is a more accepted Genre in the West. When you look at every genre, on the whole, the East isn't exactly keeping up.


The West has been making better racing games for nearly a decade, over the East. The only series that are really representing Japan now are Gran Turismo and Ridge Racer, and I haven't seen a Ridge Racer game in quite some time. Code Masters, alone, made several great racing games, with the Dirt Series and GRID. Then you had Microsoft Studios with the Forza series and Bizarre Creations with the Project Gotham Racing series.

Visceral Games' (EA) Dead Space (and Dead Space 2) had much better play mechanics, presentation, atmosphere and sound than the mediocre Resident Evil 5 and 6 that Capcom churned out. And The Last of Us did as well.

Star Wars: The Force Unleashed, had much better play mechanics than the clunky Devil May Cry 4, and God of War III, of course, just blows both of those games away.

Japan competes in the Action RPG genre with the Monster Hunter and Souls series, as does the West with Diablo III and the Witcher III.

If you seriously spent a long time thinking about this, and you haven't been able to discern what the majority of the global video game market is doing outside of FromSoftware, Square, BioWare & Bethesda, you should start playing video games rather than try to write a soap opera based on an epiphany, inspired by the "flaws" of Final Fantasy Tactics & Square's "garbage" in the RPG gameplay field.

Playing games and thinking deeply about game design mechanics is fine, but comparing apples to oranges and making broad generalizations that don't add up is pointless; especially if you're drawing counter-intuitive conclusions like:

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Originally Posted by Thief

I recall reading a bit back on difference in game design philosophies between the West and the East. And the answer was the East start their game development with gameplay (ie. Miyamoto not moving forward with Mario 64 until gameplay of Mario in 3D was fully locked first), while the West start game development with story or world first (er, I'm pretty sure every Bethesda and BioWare game I've played fits this profile perfectly... and maybe that explains why Laura Craft moves like a robot on bad gameplay medicine in the first 3D world game for PS1?).

And, well, yeah. Sounds about right to me. ... Sadly, this is what the gaming audience prefers these days too, so... yeah, no wonder Japan is struggling in today's gaming market! :o

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http://i.imgur.com/RQQd7VW.gif


You don't play a wide variety of games these days... yet you know what gaming audience prefers these days... and apparently it's brick-tank Lara Croft bullshit from 20 years ago?

If Japan is struggling in today's gaming market, it's because it has strong competition.

The game development process is different between developers, regardless of where they're from. You can find different anecdotes from game developers and teams of programers, artists, designers, etc. A lot of them go to school for designing games, a lot don't. For all we know, Shigeru is over there with a moldy shit-fungus filled diaper on his head getting electric shocks to his balls each time he comes up with a new mushroom kingdom idea.