I posted this in Gameshack topic first, but I want to give it more exposure, because I would very much like to know it's answer.
My theory is still that the West still hasn't grasped how to do gameplay good enough yet. But haven't played enough modern games to know for sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thief
The West has been making great games since the very beginning of the medium. For modern stuff:
Play The Witcher III for an RPG.
Play 3DS Shinobi for an action/platformer.
Play STALKER Call of Pripyat for an action/adventure.
Play Tesla Effect for a graphic adventure game.
Play Resogun for a shooter.
Play Sonic & All-Stars Racing Transformed for a racing game.
Play Portal 2 for a puzzle game.
^ I'm certain you've misunderstand me... I mean, I never knew Witcher was renowned for their gameplay or had great gameplay to begin with (I played very briefly part II that I own and it seemed like an over convoluted mess typical of "made in the West gameplay" mold, thus doubt they all of a sudden got it right by part III. But I could be wrong since I only played part 2 briefly and non of part 3, so just a hunch on my part).
I was certain that Sonic racing game was made by the East, looked it up, and surely enough, it's made by Sumo Digital; location - Tokyo Japan. ie. Made in the East by the East.
And a graphics adventure game has gameplay prowess too these days?!?! Now I know for sure you're not getting my drift.
The only games on your list that I recognize as maybe legit, are Portal 2, Resogun and that I guess maybe even 3DS Shinobi. But again, just a guess on my part as I haven't played these games either. Just heard the two Portal games seem to be the rage these days and I think them two games are heavily gameplay based... Resogun is supposedly a spiritual sequel to Stadust, so maybe...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thief
Vanquish vs. Gears of War seems like a legit comparison, but I don't feel that Mass Effect belongs in that category. It's an RPG that has battle elements very similar to those 2 games, but it's much more than a 3rd person shooter. Combat is not necessarily the main focus of Mass Effect.Quote:
Anyway, I'm still very much interested in who is better at doing gameplay with the West VS the East these days. But you guys are really lacking focus, so here, let me help by showing some very similar games from both ends;
EAST VS WEST;
Vanquish VS Gears of War/Mass Effect Trilogy
Dragons Dogma VS anyother Elder Scrolls game/clone
Zelda VS Darksiders 1 & 2
and so on...
Also, look from gameplay and gameplay design and balance perspective. As in, I don't care about the game's graphics, lore or music.
Dragon's Dogma appears to play more like an MMO, than a free roaming adventure RPG like Skyrim. The game is more focused on combat, while Skyrim's design is more about exploring and interacting. A game like World of Warcraft is probably a better comparison, though still a bit different. Diablo 3 is a better fit, but the player perspective is different, as well as the areas being more confined.
I don't know if you can really compare Zelda to Darksiders. Darksiders certainly has better play mechanics (if that is your sole focus) and a more diverse combat system, while Zelda is more about puzzle solving and light combat.
It's a matter of taste. I've yet to see a real-time strategy game from the East that compares to Warcraft, or StarCraft. And the East certainly hasn't made an FPS that competes with the best that the West has to offer.Quote:
My theory is still that the West still hasn't grasped how to do gameplay good enough yet. But haven't played enough modern games to know for sure.
^ Thanks for your input. They sound legit enough too me.
PS - fps games have gameplay depth? And the East actually made an fps? Both news to me.
Yeah, Japan made a few attempts at the genre.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thief
http://kotaku.com/5911355/its-true-j...ters-do-exist/
Micronet also released the horrible Robotica for the Saturn.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micronet_co.,_Ltd.
Yes, there are FPS games that have depth. The Fear series is not your typical FPS game, as well as the Bioshock series.
Outtrigger is another Japanese FPS. Yu Suzuki's attempt to do an arena style game on the heels of Quake III and Unreal Tournament's popularity.
Edit: Nevermind I said that before even looking at that article.
This year's Splatoon has to be one of the best Japanese shooters yet... it's third-person and not first, but same basic thing. That and Vanquish are probably about as good as Japanese attempts at first or third person shooters get. By all accounts they're pretty good, but probably don't quite match the best Western first or third person shooters.
As for Robotica though, a few more Japanese games with some similarities to that one are Space Griffon VF-9 (PS1, also has a Japan-only Dreamcast remake) and the two Japan-only Crime Crackers games for PS1, which have more RPG elements (experience, levels, items, etc.) but also shooting. And Robotica isn't horrible, just mediocre, in my opinion.
As for Outtrigger... nice try, Sega, but the postage-stamp sized levels are far too small.
I get he was trying to make it a bite-sized arcade experience but I wasn't a fan.Quote:
Originally Posted by A Black Falcon
There's also Maken X if that counts. First person sword-er. Not a fan of that either but I know it has its fans.
Whats the point of trying to start a discussion if you're just going "yeah err no." You haven't even played Witcher III.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thief
The Witcher 3 is a massive improvement over the previous two games, so definitely needs to be checked out.
overall the west make most amazing games in general but the absolute top for me is still japan. japan has most attention for detail and no glitches and bugs in their games. for instance look at metal gear solid 5. the reviewing world couldn't believe a sandbox game could exist without any bugs, glitches or patches
Sumo Digital (the video game developer) is in Sheffield, England.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thief
Adventure games have puzzles. Puzzles are gameplay.Quote:
And a graphics adventure game has gameplay prowess too these days?!?! Now I know for sure you're not getting my drift.
You won't recognize STALKER, why? You might want to actually play games before judging them. Your entire view of gaming seems to be based on assuming shit.Quote:
The only games on your list that I recognize as maybe legit, are Portal 2, Resogun and that I guess maybe even 3DS Shinobi.
Because I can very easily tell you're not comparing games from the perspective I'm asking for. But I blame myself for not being able to explain properly (the other problem is nobody else looks in depth at this perspective). But lucky I recall somebody else giving a very good example of basically what I'm asking for in this article. Please read it;Quote:
Originally Posted by Gogogadget
source; http://www.racketboy.com/retro/shoot...to-2d-shootersQuote:
Euroshmup ” Casually serves as a designation for any shooter created in (duh) Europe, but more specifically references a particular design mentality especially prolific among Commodore-era developers; the connotation is usually negative. While these games’ detailed hand-drawn artwork often elicits praise, other elements have rarely received as much time or attention – weaponry is by turns either over- or underpowered, enemy patterns repeat too frequently, movement is sometimes hobbled by inertia, and damage is frequently unavoidable, prompting many to tack on health/shield meters in a half-hearted attempt to compensate. While not all “Euroshmups” are roundly detested by the fan community (Soldner-X 2’s recent release was pretty well-received), the word tends to set many denizens on edge.
Now in that example above is only when comparing that one genre back in it's heyday. But back during NES-32 Bit era, I still seen games made outside of Japan lack much more in actual gameplay/level design & balance by comparison. ie. When some Japan guys got shoved on on STI to work on Sonic 2, it came out almost like a made in Japan quality gameplay videogame. But take away those Japanese guys, and all other STI games came out more then a little rough around the edges in the gameplay department.
And in the other thread you wrongfully accused me of saying I think Fallout 3 sucks. No. I love Fallout 3. Why I have it for both 360 and PS3 (ditto for owning dupes of Skyrim, Oblivion, New Vegas). But the actual gameplay in that game is typical Western made balls that's only there as cheesy feel good filler with shock value any dumbass casual would go crazy over for the rest of the game to make them oversee any issues while they drown in awesome lore and atmosphere. And that's what I meant by "sucks." Otherwise I love the heck out of that game. But because it lacks gameplay, it gets boring much faster once you experience most of it's awesome lore, atmosphere and exploration... sadly, that's also all RPGs in a nutshell...
You know, I actually looked it up yesterday on wiki and it said Tokyo Japan. Looked it up today, and it says what you've said. Looked up the names of some of the guys on that team, and I don't see one Japanese name on there. Says also this is where some old member of Gremlin ended up in. That I find interesting.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoZeedeater
I looked up some footage of that Adventure game and it looked like an FMV game... I honestly don't know what else to say.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoZeedeater
As for Stalker, yeah. Sorry. I don't recall hearing it. And I've said I've barely played modern games even thought I own a about 1000 games for 360, PS3, DS and PSP - it's basically still one massive do do list at this point... why I'm asking for you guys to compare this topic for me. Me. You can look at me as a moderator in this thread. Overseeing that you guys keep things on topic. :D
That's interesting info on.Quote:
Originally Posted by gamevet
And I do own the Bioshock Trilogy. I should start it soon already and see for myself what all the hype is about these games... if you say it's gameplay really is promising, then that's something to really look forward too. So thanks.
Noted. Thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamahl
Those Euroshmup complaints strike me more as a cultural preference for Japanese shooters than actual flaws in the gameplay of European shooters. I like the inertia in C64 Zynaps. It's a design choice that doesn't appeal to everyone but that doesn't make it bad gameplay.
^ lol no. Them were serious flaws with Euro shmups. No joke. ie. go to the shmup forum where guys there play shmups like their lives depend on it until they achieve that 1cc or high score, and see what they tell you? (Answer; they keep replaying Japanese shmups like they have infinite replay value, as evident by highscore table and forums chit chat; and avoid + make fun of Euro ones like the plague)
PS. that topic was done by Bullet Magnet. A guy from the shmups forum. Not some casual from Racketboy forum.
Oh yes, I enjoy inertia in some games too. ie. I always play the Genesis Strike series with momentum set to on in the options menu.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoZeedeater
EDIT - the SNES versions of the Strike series I play with options set to "throw into the building's trash compactor."
European shooters are quite varied. You have very replayable Jeff Minter stuff that's inspired by American (Atari/Williams) arcade games, the whole subgenre of thrust based games, and also type of sidescrollers that earlier post is talking about. There are plenty of flawed games but the region has seen a lot of quality and different styles.
^ But the quality is nowhere near the Japanese output for the most part. Thus the poor Euroshmup label.
PS - I know a guy on the Gradius forums who's favourite shmup is Defender. A Western made game.
The gameplay of the Bioshock games isn't all that great IMO. It was better in system shock 2 and it wasn't great there to begin with.
As far as going around shooting people in the face they are really average, can't hold a candle to classic FPS games, even including Halo as a classic.
What sold me on them was everything else! Graphics, sound, atmosphere, story, setting, and just the overall design of the areas you go through and the neat abilities and weapons you get to have fun with.
They're that sort of game that would make a good movie, but are just so much better for being interactive. Not like other games that try to be movies and merely use gameplay as a means of delaying cutscenes (and would actually be terrible movies).
East vs West, mofos.
http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/...20150309103236
They are all copying each other. Where's the innovation with all of those bullet hell games with the same old squat in the safe zone memorization. It becomes less about natural skills and reaction and more about memorizing. Sure, the Western shooters can fall into that as well, but for the most part, they feel more like the challenge is more about skill. I like shooters like Galaga 90', Sturmwind and Gaiares, because they are not bullet hell crazy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thief
Yes! We finally have a debate! Now quick! Someone challenge Kamahl back at the gameplay quality of Bioshock! For the glory of the West!!... Unless you think he's right and there's no way you can match the powers of Kamahl...Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamahl
Oh, and yeah. I like the rest of your post too.
Yep, and I be watching it all from the chillin side of the Dark Side.Quote:
Originally Posted by profholt82
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEeAjy-05OI
There is a handful of good European shumps. Disposable Hero (unfairly criticised on Game Sack imo) is a good game.
However there isn't a Gradius or R-Type level game so.
Apidya plays pretty well too, even if the graphics are unpolished. I also adore Tyrian and Raptor. They aren't very well balanced but sometimes you gotta screw balance in favour of just ridiculous fun. Oh and Super SWIV, that one is pretty good in all areas.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gogogadget
Ah yeah, I never did get to play much Apidya but it's decent. It's also colourful and not space themed so theres points in it's favour already.
Super SWIV is damn good, of course the Americans amongst us know it better as Firepower 2000.
I thought this was an old topic by now.
Either way. One doesn't have to stray far from the mainstream to realize how perfectly seamless the West has gotten the gameplay down. Look at Ubisoft with the Assassin's Creed games and Naughty Dogs with Uncharted.
It's nearing the end of 2015. How is this even a question? Good games are coming from all over nowadays. :?
Oh shit, Resident Evil Survivor. I must be the only person on the face of the planet who actually likes that game.Quote:
Originally Posted by gamevet
Raptor and Tyrian are great, Raptor particularly (I love that game!), but both are American games, not European. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamahl
As for actual Euroshmups though, most deserve the poor reputation that the term "euroshmup" has among shmup fans, but I do like some. My favorite's probably Firepower 2000 (aka Super SWIV) for SNES, which is well-balanced and great fun. I agree, that's one of the very few great euroshmups.
Jeff Minter's games are indeed fantastic, I'm something of a fan of his games... but they mostly aren't traditional shmups. Has he ever actually done a standard scrolling shooter? Llamatron 2112 is one of the best arena shooters ever, though, and Tempest 2000 is the best into-the-screen shooter on my list, but they aren't quite the same thing as a Gradius; different categories, somewhat. But sure, if you count them in the genre it helps Europe's case more than anyone else.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoZeedeater
That game is pretty awful, though...Quote:
Originally Posted by The Jackal
Jeff Minter aside this is mostly accurate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thief
damn, might finally be time to play through Witcher 2 & 3...gave up early on 1 on steam, lost momentum in fetchquests. how are the 360 ports?
Is there such a category as the US-shmup? I mean other then referring to games like defender and such. Tyrian and Raptor play like euroshmups (except super fun), perhaps location based names aren't that appropriate.Quote:
Originally Posted by A Black Falcon
Considering the term "shmup" (I hate that word) originated in the UK and was first used for any kind of shooter (the earliest case in Zzap I noticed it used for was for the European Defender clone Dropzone), I would say Minter's games are traditional shmups. But yeah, if you want Gradius type games, that's not really his thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by ABF
I think you're jumping to conclusions. In the past year you mentioned not even having played a Commodore computer. You're missing a lot of Euro-shooters if judging by just consoles and IBM PCs.Quote:
Jeff Minter aside this is mostly accurate.
I recall reading a bit back on difference in game design philosophies between the West and the East. And the answer was the East start their game development with gameplay (ie. Miyamoto not moving forward with Mario 64 until gameplay of Mario in 3D was fully locked first), while the West start game development with story or world first (er, I'm pretty sure every Bethesda and BioWare game I've played fits this profile perfectly... and maybe that explains why Laura Craft moves like a robot on bad gameplay medicine in the first 3D world game for PS1?).
And, well, yeah. Sounds about right to me. ... Sadly, this is what the gaming audience prefers these days too, so... yeah, no wonder Japan is struggling in today's gaming market! :o
I don't think that is a 100% for any region. Kojima's games have nice visuals, but the storyline and controls are pretty bad. I'm not a big fan of the Metal Gear games, because of the poor clunky control schemes.
Peter Molyneaux's games are all about good user interface and level designs. He's legendary as a Western developer.
There isn't really a term for US shmups, no. There aren't as many of them in the post-crash era as there are European or Japanese shmups, so they never got their own name. While in the precrash era lots of American static-screen shooters were made, in the post-crash era it has been a rarely-seen genre outside of indie PC games. There are a fair number of those, including the ones from Apogee and Epic in the early to mid '90s, the other games by the guy who made Raptor (Demonstar and its sequels, that is), and more, but not nearly as many as Europe made, much less Japan.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamahl
It is true that American shmups often have health bars, like European ones, but do you think they're really the same? Something like Raptor or Overkill ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5gwPzefurs ) doesn't seem quite the same as what you usually see from Europe, health bars aside...
Regardless of where the term comes from though, it is usually used to refer to scrolling shooters specifically...Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoZeedeater
Sure, I haven't played Amiga or C64 games, but ask any serious shmup fan, they'll tell you exactly that -- and I'm sure some of them have played those European computer games. And are their C64, Amiga, etc. games really so different from the console or PC versions?Quote:
I think you're jumping to conclusions. In the past year you mentioned not even having played a Commodore computer. You're missing a lot of Euro-shooters if judging by just consoles and IBM PCs.
This is sometimes true and sometimes not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thief
I have been playing the genre pretty consistently since the ‘70s, and grew up playing North American, Asian, and European ones. I would hope I count as a serious fan (even though I'm much more into platformers) ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by A Black Falcon
While I'm not one to tell others in a forum what to talk about and not, but the shmup chit chat I used was a clear cut example of what I meant with this topic. Since that's one example where the West clearly bombed while the East clearly ruled (as in, there's nothing left to discuss. History written in stone. End of story. End of line).
And as something from the past, this genre is not in the spotlight in today's gaming anymore either. And I'm more interested in researching the present. Not the past. I already know enough of the past in this topic. So I really see no need to talk about anything old. I'm just looking for modern day examples that helps better define the quality of and development process of gameplay related things for the WEST & EAST.
Well obviously I'm lumping everything into one big average when I say the EAST VS the WEST. Course there are exceptions all over the place. ie.Quote:
Originally Posted by gamevet
nobody knows Rare's development process since they are very secretive and let no one in their offices.
I hate it too. But it's what most know it as. Otherwise, when I'm at shmups.com or Gradius forum, I use the Japanese term "STG." And when I'm on modern day forums, like a BioWare forum, then I make sure to mention "2D scrolling shooters" or something.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoZeedeater
Again, of course there are exceptions. I'm looking at the majority. ... That, and the fact that the West usually lacks in more refined gameplay in their games from what I've played is another reason for me to assume so.Quote:
Originally Posted by A Black Falcon
I've tried looking for that article again, but no luck so far. Just more things that got me side tracked...
But since you already said exception, do you know of any exceptions where the West started on a new IP and right away said "Lets lock the gameplay down first."?
I'm sure it's happened many times, but id and their engine-first focus might be a good one to mention here. From Commander Keen to Rage, John Carmack's programming genius always ensured that id games play very well. The Keen games play as well as anything in the genre from any region, Doom is a legend because of its incredible gameplay more than anything, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thief