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If people with little income get more money they tend to spend it. It's like a feedback loop that feeds itself.Quote:
Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118
This is real life and not Sim City: Rich people do not leave. Why would they? They profit from the infrastructure that is paid for by taxes.Quote:
Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118
Oh fuck Molyneux. What an intergalactic asshole.Quote:
Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118
"Rich people do not leave" lol, that is some real delusion. Are you ignoring all the USA corporate headquarters moving to other parts of the world?
I used neoliberal for precisely that reason: it encapsulates the desire to use cheap immigrant or foreign labor in order to stay competitive. This has been the modus operandi of the European Union for decades. France cannot support its own social programs without immigrant labor. Neither can Germany. It needs a permanent underclass in order to pay for its system.
You are sheltered in a narrow view of only Germany (dental and glasses, lol who cares). The picture across the board is of increasing Euro-wide bureaucracy. You seem to be forgetting the fact that the EU government, buoyed by German money, is dictating domestic and foreign policy to its member states, not all of which want to be the lapdogs of pan-European financial institutions. It's why there is so much tension in the EU right now. It's why the UK wants to leave (and its "neolib" leaders are trying to convince them to stay).
Finally, LOL at "most are wartime refugees." The Euro Commissioner himself has reported that an estimated 60% of migrants are economic migrants, not war-time refugees. Most are young men. I don't know what fictions Merkel's party peddles in Germany, but it certainly must work. All the better for her to be praised for her "bold leadership" while creating more Arab ghettos and sowing the seeds of future extremism, while fracturing and weakening native-born citizens through a flood of cheap migrant labor. Again, a neoliberal, closely allied with financial institutions and corporations, trying to squeeze out the highest amount of money while destroying populations in the process.
We have several such people in the USA running for president as well, like Hillary Clinton.
How is that feedback loop going to work the day the minimum wage increases and those business owners are required to pay their workers money they don't have or be in violation of the law? They're either going to have to cut costs (lowering quality, or cutting workers), or raise their prices. If they raise their prices, suddenly other people (possibly even the very same workers) are less likely to spend their new found money because now their $1 doesn't get them the same amount it gave them before.Quote:
Originally Posted by retrospiel
The loop can't work if there's no money to start it going in the first place.
Right, because the rich totally don't put their money in off shore bank accounts. Big industries and corporations definitely don't move their jobs to other countries with lower taxes to save money either.Quote:
Originally Posted by retrospiel
:roll:
Seriously what fantasy land have you been living in?
And mock Sim City all you want, but it has been used in numerous Political Science and Urban Planning courses in Universities across the country. It may be a game, but in some ways it is surprisingly accurate.
Yes let's attack the person and not the argument being made. That's totally not a fallacy or anything. :roll:Quote:
Originally Posted by retrospiel
Europe before the collapse of the European Union.Quote:
Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118
EDIT:
I'm not a huge fan of Molyneux, but he's right in blasting the "if he did nothing!!!" shit. You're right, if Trump dug a hole and put his money in it, and then importantly never touched his money or used it for anything, he would have more money. Wow, cool - the same could be said of me if I stopped buying everything, eating, and lived outside. I would probably have more money if I sold everything, did that, and waited 80 years to collect my interest.
Well, if that's all true, whatever his business acumen, Trump is still not worth voting for. And I don't know why otherwise reasonable thinking people would think he is.Quote:
Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118
Why not? He wants to lower taxes, bring back industries, renegotiate trade deals, actually do something about the illegal immigration problem, ditch common core, and do something about the Affordable Healthcare Act, etc. I think it's safe to say that some of those issues wouldn't even be being seriously discussed if he didn't bring them up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crystalpepsifan
Funny thing is, it's already appearing to have an effect. Ford is backpedaling on moving their plants to Mexico just at the possibility of Trump being President and imposing tariffs on their cars made in Mexico:
http://usherald.com/coincidence-or-t...-outsourcing/#
Most of that stuff is the same type of thing Sanders is promising, just at the opposite end of the political spectrum. So far all I've heard about Trump's renegotiating trade deals is just slapping tariffs on Chinese goods. I believe China has already stated what they would do if that ever became the case. It's all beer hall putsch, and I can't believe people are actually falling for it.
I am sure they'll find a way. Pretty sure there could be tax exemptions or subsidized low interest loans for small businesses.Quote:
Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118
I really can't explain everything to you up until the finest detail. I mean could you explain every single detail of Trump's proposals? (in a different language?)
I did a quick google search and found this: http://feelthebern.org/bernie-sanders-on-minimum-wage/
Ctrl+F and look for the phrase "Won’t increasing the minimum wage harm small businesses?"
Ton of info there. Seems some of your states already have a $15 Dollar minimum wage and are doing fine.
Nah sorry, I just really can't stand the guy. Gives me panic attacks just looking at his smug face. Maybe if there's a transcript or something.Quote:
Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118
I love Sim City but it really is just a game.Quote:
Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118
As for it being impossible to tax the rich for fear of them leaving the country: Doesn't change the fact it should be done. It's simply idiotic to tax the poor but not the rich.
Fuck logisitics! Blindly drink the Kool Aid and don't give a fuck about how it works!Quote:
Originally Posted by retrospiel
And then you'll have everyone scrambling to try and get into those excemptions. And even then those might not be enough. We're talking about forcing every company in the country to double the salary of their minimum wage employees and also give raises to any that are below the new $15 minimum. That's a hell of a lot of money to pull out of thin air and some companies might not be able to handle it.Quote:
Originally Posted by retrospiel
I'm not asking you to explain anything. I'm simply pointing out the holes in the logic and asking where the money would come from.Quote:
Originally Posted by retrospiel
Not in a different language. But Trumps proposals are pretty down to earth and common sense. Lower local taxes while renegotiating foreign trade deals to encourage businesses to move back to the US and provide more jobs. Beef up our borders and deal with the illegal immigration issue to reduce the money spent on giving them benefits/hand outs while also providing jobs back to actual citizens. It's really not that hard to figure out.Quote:
Originally Posted by retrospiel
Sorry but a lot of that info is bullshit and propaganda. The areas that tried raising it are areas with overall higher incomes and higher costs of living like California. Some aren't even whole states but cities like Seattle. Some aren't even for whole areas but just one business. Instead of reading it from a Bernie Propaganda site why don't you actually try doing some fact checking?Quote:
Originally Posted by retrospiel
No they don't:Quote:
Originally Posted by retrospiel
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimu...d_States#State
The highest is $10.50.
And those are for more liberal and hippy dippy states like California. Those states have higher incomes and higher costs of living on average. Their businesses can afford to do it. Trying to force that on a more rural state like oh say, Tennessee, Oklahoma, Iowa, or even Pennsylvania would have disastrous results.
Really? You have panic attacks from a person simply talking on a youtube video? How fragile are you?Quote:
Originally Posted by retrospiel
True, it is game. It's also a simulation. A suprisingly accurate simulation in some aspects. As a result it has been used in Urban Planning and Political Science classes as a learning aid.Quote:
Originally Posted by retrospiel
They are being taxed already. The problem being discussed here is raising the taxes on the rich just because they're rich. That doesn't solve the issue and isn't really as fair as you try and make it sound. Those are the people investing in your businesses and helping start-ups get off the ground. If you tax them more, they're less likely to invest that money.Quote:
Originally Posted by retrospiel
If you tax them too much, they up and leave. And when that happens, no one is there to pay that higher tax. So who's left to foot that bill then? The lower and middle class. It's a childish Robin Hood fantasy.
So far all I've heard of Trump's plan are that we're gonna wall ourselves off from Mexico and they're gonna pay for it. We're gonna ban Muslims from entering the country until we get these kooky ISIS guys figured out, and that we're gonna stop losing and start winning against China. Look, I'm all for keeping Hillary out of the white house, but if you think "the Donald" can do it you're deluding yourselves. The only good Donald Trump is doing is keeping the Republican establishment on their toes, and just barely not sitting their pants. But if you want a Republican as the next occupant of the white house, then you better pray for Rubio.
Wow, you wan't Rubio the Robot? If Chris Christie was able to rip him to shreds what makes you think he'll be able to stand up to Hillary or Bernie?Quote:
Originally Posted by Crystalpepsifan
If any candidate screams establishment puppet it's Rubio. When pressed hard he doubles down on repeating the same speech/points over and over. If the Republicans are seeing that and ripping him to shreds over it, Hillary and Bernie will catch it immediately and rip him apart for it.
At this point it looks like unless Trump starts sacrificing toddlers on TV he will get the nomination. Even then he still might. You can blame that on normal people getting desensitized from constant attacks against them in this latest PC craze but that's a whole nother story for later. If Rubio did get the nomination he would get creamed by what ever was run against him. He is "meh" choice for the right just like McCain and Romney were. Trump is like a lightning rod. Many voters will vote for him not because they are deluded but like any election because they see him as the lesser of two (well many at this point) evils.
That and some people see it as him having the guts to say what we're all thinking but don't say due to PC culture and what not. Which I'd say that's the main reason why every time he says something that the media thinks will destroy him it instead only seems to give him a bigger lead.
The federal government is composed of three distinct branches: legislative, executive and judicial, whose powers are vested by our U.S. Constitution in the Congress, the President, and the federal courts, including the Supreme Court, respectively. The powers and duties of these branches are further defined by acts of Congress, including the creation of executive departments and courts inferior to the Supreme Court. Our United States president can make snap decisions and provides a face to other nations but in the long run the voting US citizen and congress run this country. If you don't like something get in touch with your senator and tell them (make your voice heard) and also get out there and vote with an informed decision.
Yeah I see him as a guided fuck you bomb pretty much. A lot of people like him because he pisses off the other side in such a dramatic way. Trump campaign poster below.Quote:
Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118
http://s22.postimg.org/f9kvk5dox/image.jpg
This entire election cycle is a three ring circus on both sides. The insanity just keeps climbing.
The candidates will likely be decided before the primaries reach Pennsylvania in late April so I don't really have much of a say anyway.
Hillary Rodham Clinton should be going to prison soon or sitting in one now.
Edit: The only thing keeping this from happening is Loretta Elizabeth Lynch and the Obama administration.
I think a lot of people need to learn what communism actually is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barone
This.Quote:
Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118
The "but it's better to do something about it than do nothing" mindset has ruined many different things on several different countries.
It shouldn't be all that difficult to look at Obamacare and see how wrong things can get when the leadership of a country acts that way.
People who think Bernie's proposals can't be harmful to the economy or the social stability of the country should have a look at what happened in countries where very similar actions were applied.
like Denmark or Sweden ?
Or like Venezuela, Argentina and Brazil?
My point of course was that it does not necessarily have to end bad. Laissez-faire and trickle down economies always end up bad - at least for those ending up with the short end of the stick.
Nice.Quote:
Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118
If you were really interested in knowing the details you could google it yourself. You counter my (admittedly subpar) attempt at explaining it to you with personal attacks and "Trumbs proposals are pretty down to earth". What kind of double standard is this ? How about you start a thread about Trump and start explaining how you think the guy will finance his proposals in detail ?
I know you're not sorry but if you actually checked the link I provided you'd have noticed that they list Seattle as a model for their approach. In Seattle companies that do have 500+ employees are ahead of smaller companies below 500 employees regarding the minimum wage, giving the latter an advantage before the feedback loop sets in. That seems like a reasonable way to approach this. Pretty sure it is not the only thing they did in Seattle but this information in itself is more than "propaganda and bullshit" already.Quote:
Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118
http://i0.wp.com/www.leftycartoons.c...or_history.png
"Fragile" enough to get pissed at the sheer amount of crap people vomit into their webcams. People like Alex Jones and Stefan Molyneux are among the worst vile and despicable creatures I've seen crawling up on the net. I see no reason why I would want to torture my brain watching their videos.Quote:
Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118
Yes. You said that already. I happen to live in a city and rich people do not just move away because they are expected to pay taxes. If anything poor people move away as they can't afford the rent.Quote:
Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118
You clearly don't understand what a cap on taxable income is.Quote:
Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118
You think they invest that money for the greater good ? They invest because they hope to earn more money and because they can deduce the investment from their taxes.Quote:
Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118
If anything raising taxes on the rich would translate to more investments.
Yet those kind of policies are part of what lead to the boom we had in the 90's that Clinton tries to take credit for.Quote:
Originally Posted by retrospiel
I did look at it and I commented on what I saw wrong with it. I have googled it for myself and the one question that is never fucking answered is "Where will these small businesses get money they don't have to pay their workers double what they pay them now?" You can scream feed back loop all you want but the reality of the situation is those small businesses wont be around to benefit from any possible feedback loop if one happens at all. You need to have the additional money to pay those workers more in the first place to even get that feedback loop started. If the money isn't there, the loop wont start.Quote:
Originally Posted by retrospiel
And I did mention what Trump plans to do. You can go read it for yourself on his website and on numerous places across the internet. Hell you can even watch the video I linked earlier where it get's mentioned. I'm not going to sit here and spoon feed you what you can read for yourself.
The question I'm asking you is one that isn't being answered by anyone as far as I can tell. If you have an actual solid answer for that question then point me to it.
Seattle is one of the most liberal cities in the country, 2nd only to San Francisco. That model cannot be applied to everyone else. What happens in your more rural areas that don't have those larger companies? And again where is the money going to come from to pay those workers more in the first place? That question isn't answered by you and it's not answered by anything you've linked. The whole thing labors under the delusion that every business owner is rich and is just hording money for themselves and therefore need to be forced to give it up. It's idiot and childish.Quote:
Originally Posted by retrospiel
Yay leftist propaganda.Quote:
Originally Posted by retrospiel
I'm sorry your personal views and opinions are so fragile that you have to shield yourself from dissenting viewpoints.Quote:
Originally Posted by retrospiel
Again the issue is not having the rich pay taxes. The rich ALREADY PAY TAXES! THEY ARE NOT TAX EXEMPT! The issue here is raising taxes to a ludicrous level on the rich. And when that happens we do see them up and leave or do whatever they can to avoid paying that tax. We've seen it these past 8 years with Obama, and yes a game like Sim City reflects it beautifully.Quote:
Originally Posted by retrospiel
Or you don't understand it. The rich pay taxes just like everyone else. The tax cap that's being discussed by Bernie Sanders is for Social Security, not income taxes. Social Security is a federal program that's basically designed for retirement. Everyone pays into it and then when you reach retirement age it pays out to you. Under the original plan the rich weren't even supposed to be participating in it, because why would they need a federal program to pay them for their retirement? They already have the money to handle that.Quote:
Originally Posted by retrospiel
When it comes to Income taxes, the Rich pay like everyone else. And in some states like California it's well over 50% of their income when you combine federal and state income tax. Maybe you should stop involving yourself with politics of a country you don't live in or clearly understand.
They invest that money because it's better for them. If you try and tax them higher without giving them any way of bringing it down through investments or if you tax them so high that even investments can't help them then you run into a real problem. It eventually will hit a point where it's more worthwhile to up and leave than to bother investing. Which surprise surprise, that's exactly what we've been seeing over these past 8 years.Quote:
Originally Posted by retrospiel
Sweden has recently stated that in the long run their system will collapse.Quote:
Originally Posted by retrospiel
Lol. Vote Trump, because he has the balls to say all the horrible shit we're really thinking.
Vote Trump; he's note the racist/xenophobe America needs, he's the one America deserves.
I see you've been reading Huffington Post:Quote:
Originally Posted by Crystalpepsifan
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m...psalzmxzxq.jpg
Dude, does anybody actually read HuffPo? Seriously though, how much money has Trump donated to the Clinton over the years? Let alone other Democrats? I honestly do kind of admire the man, but that's because I mostly believe him to be possibly the world's greatest troll.Quote:
Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118
Not sure who reads it, but their complete meltdown over the New Hampshire primary was hilarious to watch.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crystalpepsifan
As for Trump donating to the Clinton Foundation, as he stated as a business man it made sense to play nice with everyone. So he got a long with everyone. If that meant donating money to what was supposed to be a charity organization run by the Clinton's than so be it.
Being "fragile" as you call it sucks big time indeed but at least I got to see through the shit you autists fail to detect.Quote:
Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118
What was your question again?Quote:
Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118
Actually: forget it. I realize I am completly wasting my time here. Go vote for Trumb dude, definitely the president people like you deserve. :daze:
- You do realize that Star Trek is some kind of socialist utopia with health care for all and without money, right?
Yet you fail to detect the bullshit in your own camp's ideology.Quote:
Originally Posted by retrospiel
A very simple question. Where will the money these businesses do not have come from the day the Minimum wage increases so they can pay their workers more. How can this feedback loop start without that initial money to pay those people so they can go spend it?Quote:
Originally Posted by retrospiel
Definitely. He just won by a landslide in South Carolina while Bernie lost to Hillary which isn't going to help him with his ~400 super delegate deficit.Quote:
Originally Posted by retrospiel
Ah this argument. I'm well aware of that. However there's a few steps that people tend to forget. What kicks that off in the Star Trek universe is the event of realizing we are not alone in the universe. It kicks humanity into coming together and overcoming greed and pettiness so those utopian ideas can work. Our society is no where near that level of human evolution. It will be a while until we hit it without some freak incident like discovering we're not alone in the universe.Quote:
Originally Posted by retrospiel
Socialists like to try and skip the evolutionary work required for that system to be effective. As a result it wont work and you end up with corruption and mass poverty like we've seen in numerous communist countries throughout history.
Couldn't agree more :nod:Quote:
Originally Posted by retrospiel
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-A...mens-skirt.png
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pNQYHvhnms
http://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-conten...87-640x492.jpg
Too bad we've already been up there! Sorry got to end in a super rednecky way
http://cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/54370841.jpg
/thread
it's pretty seriously ironic to, in two lines, first dismiss an image displaying facts which help disprove your case as 'leftist propaganda' and then claim that it's the other person who is shielding themself from opposing viewpoints...Quote:
Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118
Bernie wants America to be more like Denmark, not Venezuela. Come on. He's a Democratic Socialist, Denmark or Sweden style. Not a Chavez-like communist. He's not even a "real" socialist by some metrics, never mind a communist -- he doesn't want to nationalize industry, etc, etc, etc. He is quite left-of-center for America, but in Europe he'd be mainstream left, since Europe is well to America's left politically -- this is a very conservative country compared to Europe, in a lot of ways. (There are other ways we are more liberal, but more that we are more conservative.) Other countries are more conservative than the US, of course, such as Japan or the Middle East. Different places are different.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barone
You took you time... But why opening another thread then ?Quote:
Originally Posted by retrospiel
I really don't understand the aim of those "debates"... You all really think you'll be able to change the others' opinions ?
It's propaganda because instead of actually addressing the issue it simply tries to paint all opposing viewpoints as evil. This minimum wage proposal is pretty damn different from any of those issues in that propaganda. This isn't an issue about safety, ethics, discrimination, etc. It's simply short sighted entitlement. Raising minimum wage will hurt small businesses the most. The example I gave earlier has yet to be properly refuted. So please explain to me where the money will come from for those small businesses to pay their workers more.Quote:
Originally Posted by A Black Falcon
Minimum wage jobs are not meant to be a person's one and only job for their entire life. They're intended to be a stepping stone to something better, a part time job for students, a part time job for a person needing a 2nd job, etc. These are very low skill jobs that anyone can do. If someone doesn't like what they're getting paid at those low skill jobs, there's hundreds of people who would gladly take it.
The real problem that needs to be addressed is the number of jobs that have been lost to do outsourcing, automation, and the economy tanking. Those issues have forced people into Minimum Wage jobs because for some of them it's the only job they could find. We need to instead invest in creating more skilled jobs so those people aren't forced into Minimum Wage jobs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by A Black Falcon
1) Sweden has said recently their system is going to collapse at the rate their going
2) Those countries have a population that's roughly 2-3% the size of the US. It wont work.
So young yet already so set in dead set in his ways.
Can you source your claim as to where "Sweden said" it is going to collaps?
I already answered to your question:
- I linked you to a page which you claimed was only propaganda without actually trying to understand its content
- small businesses will gain an advantage over big companies as the minimum wage will affect them with a 12 month delay
- small businesses will profit from the feedback loop of people having more money
- there are other scenarios which could help small companies that I also listed
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Sweden+CollapseQuote:
Originally Posted by retrospiel
The page you linked didn't answer the question.Quote:
Originally Posted by retrospiel
How will small businesses get that money to pay their workers in the first place to kick off said feedback loop? Large businesses paying their workers more earlier may help, then again it may not if those workers don't shop at those smaller businesses. What if those smaller businesses see no increase in sales? Sales throughout the year in a lot of those places go up and down. Some have huge booms over the Holidays, and then are dead the rest of the year. Their sales are not constant throughout the year as you like to think. You also seem to think small businesses are just tiny shops. What about restaurants? What about your not for profit organizations? What about your Realtor offices? What about your secretarial positions? What about your contractors and construction workers? What about Farmers and agriculture? Will those places benefit from a feed back loop? If any of those businesses are paying below the new minimum wage they'll need to increase their wages as well. How will they benefit from a feedback loop?
The feedback loop is a childish answer that ignores tons of jobs/businesses that don't actually sell tangible products. It relies on the hope that either A) these businesses will just have the money to pay their workers more off the bat, or B) that some fantasy feedback loop will pay them back in the future so they don't go bankrupt or have to fire people.
It's child logic that doesn't take into account all the variables.
Well the collapse Sweden's Foreign Minister predicts is linked to the Syrian refugee crisis. Guess who predicted that scenario? Bernie Sanders.
So what? If anything it proves that when that system is pushed it can't hold up. If it can't hold up to an influx of Syrian Refugees what makes you think implementing that system in the US with a significantly larger population plus it's own influx of illegal immigrants will work?
If the US were to welcome more than 3.500.000 refugees in less than 6 months you'd maybe have something even remotely resembling a point.
We have more than double that in Illegal Immigrants alone and we have over 30 times the population of Sweden. If Sweden's system can't handle 3.5 Million more people how is it going to handle 320 Million more people if it was applied to the US?Quote:
Originally Posted by retrospiel
...must ...resist.... feeding... the troll....
Anyway back on topic. Here's Bernie Sanders getting arrested fighting against segregation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPYCeO0seLU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LDiT6yci5U