In the good Cold War days China was second world. I guess after that that they were downgraded but hey things may change again.
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In the good Cold War days China was second world. I guess after that that they were downgraded but hey things may change again.
The negative annotations on Sanders tax increases are because they would increase everyone's taxes to ridiculous levels. Here's how his tax plan actually plays out when you throw in the payroll tax:Quote:
Originally Posted by Knuckle Duster
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m...pshwstfite.jpg
My tax bracket would become 50% and I am by no means rich. Even more hilarious is that people making 3-4 times what I make have a lower tax rate than me. That's insane. People aren't opposed to taxes, they're opposed to insane and unfair taxes.
You can create economic stability without handouts and welfare systems. Lower taxes gives people more money to spend as does creating more higher paying jobs so people aren't forced into a minimum wage job.Quote:
Originally Posted by Knuckle Duster
We already have a minimum wage though. The issue though is that the job market is such trash right now that people are fighting for minimum wage jobs that are not intended to be the jobs you have raising a family. They're intended for single people or people in college, etc. They're not intended to be your career for life.Quote:
Originally Posted by Knuckle Duster
As for college tuition being high and medical bills being high, making that free doesn't solve the problem. Those costs are still there and still need to be paid for by someone. In this case it will be your tax dollars that could be better spent else where. There is no such thing as a free lunch. The better solution for dealing with these issues is to address the issues that result in those high costs. Trumps medical plan at least attempts to do this.
With College tuition, you can pay off that debt if you get a good job in your field after graduation. I should know as I was able to get a good job in my field after graduation ~5 years ago and in the next month I will have all those loans paid off. The problem is that job market sucks right now so many people are graduating and again going into minimum wage jobs.
I agree with most of that, and Canada isn't much different. I would argue that any shift Sanders puts through would undoubtedly change the purchasing power of the already collected tax dollar, and things would get cheaper under a single payer healthcare system. If tied to a payroll tax for public insurance of some kind, matched by corporations, it would earmark and leverage costs down even further. The government can cut corporate taxes all they want, it won't bring jobs back.Quote:
Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118
Where the disconnect for me comes in is the notion that healthcare costs can be better spent elsewhere. It obviously can't when you have top end world class healthcare, and no access to 100% of those who need it due to a paywall. Insurance companies are defrauding the people by inflating costs, drug companies are not being forced to lower prices under a more stable, widespread formulary with more leverage. Poor people can't afford to get sick without losing everything in the USA.
There are millions of people too stupid to look after themselves, and nobody else will do it for them. The government should serve them at a minimum so they can get by and contribute their fair share. Spend the tiny bit of money they get in their local economy. The crazy idea of minimum income I mentioned usually comes with an abolished welfare of other kinds, it goes universal and it's a can of worms that would need to be studied in regard to those people who can't fend for themselves. Social workers would need to have different priorities.
The idea of anything being made free is a fucking joke. Where is that ever being implied? It's obviously tax funded. Obviously the people putting claims against the system would be tax payers. It's not being a self entitled little shit to expect healthcare or an education that has value. It comes down to how much people give a fuck about their country, and the citizenship base. It's how much you're willing to accept that the government isn't going to go anywhere so it might as well service and give everybody a fairer chance at getting ahead in life.
It can if you lower them to a point of being competitive and address trade deficits.Quote:
Originally Posted by Knuckle Duster
And Trump's healthcare plan addresses this without wasting tax dollars on creating a universal healthcare system:Quote:
Originally Posted by Knuckle Duster
https://www.donaldjtrump.com/positio...lthcare-reform
High healthcare costs are a symptom, not the actual problem.
And this is my disconnect. If you can't take care of yourself as a grown adult barring anything such as a true disability or mental illness, then it's your own dumb fault. It's not the government's job to be your parents and take care of you. You have the tools and opportunities to take care of yourself. It's your responsibility to take advantage of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Knuckle Duster
It's being sold as exactly that to young idiots to get support for it. You would not believe the amount of people I've argued with who think the Affordable Healthcare Act was Free Healthcare.Quote:
Originally Posted by Knuckle Duster
Symptom of a lack of oversight and leverage, a burden on the poor, and a choke against economic growth opportunity.Quote:
Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118
Those people with the true disability or mental illnesses are falling through the cracks, and the lazy people are willing to steal shit to survive if desperate enough. Universal coverage lets people get on with their lives, carry on being contributing taxpayers, stops and deters desperation & crime.Quote:
And this is my disconnect. If you can't take care of yourself as a grown adult barring anything such as a true disability or mental illness, then it's your own dumb fault. It's not the government's job to be your parents and take care of you. You have the tools and opportunities to take care of yourself. It's your responsibility to take advantage of them.
Universal minimum income go further and removes the burden or shame and stigma of even needing to look for a handout to get by, and it creates economic stability, while removing the need for other bloated government welfare schemes. That isn't going to happen any time soon, but it is an inevitable issue America will need to address in the next 20 years.
Nothing is free, but given the state of the American economy, the value of the US dollar, and the obscene tax rates you already pay. It should be affordable. You're just all lobbied out of it by corruption on capitol hill, and the people are too stupid to stand up for any responsible, functional government. The people are stupid enough to want people to sink or swim on their own, because "Opportunity" is there for those who seize it.Quote:
It's being sold as exactly that to young idiots to get support for it. You would not believe the amount of people I've argued with who think the Affordable Healthcare Act was Free Healthcare.
The American dream is a crock of shit. The reality is you need to forcefully look after the poor, boost the value of your citizenship to take in investment from abroad, or else poverty and desperation will just run around destabilizing the economy, stealing, burning shit down, etc. It sucks, but that's how it needs to be. Alternatively kicking the can down the road isn't going to help America in the long run.
All the lazy ass leeches to society aren't going anywhere. They're perfectly capable of disrupting economic growth when desperation kicks in. It's not like you can exterminate or enslave them. All you can do is coax them into productivity by removing burdens and adding incentive to get things they want. Mass reform that covers the basics. Healthcare burdens should be covered by everybody.
And trying to solve the symptom won't solve the actual problems.Quote:
Originally Posted by Knuckle Duster
Funny thing with that. The attempt at doing that with the Affordable Healthcare act only made it more expensive, because it forced insurances companies to insure everyone and include ridiculous things in their policies regardless of who they're insuring. For example my dad who's had a vasectomy, a wife who's gone through menopause, and two sons older than 26 still needs to have coverage for abortions and maternity/prenatal care. That's just stupid. He shouldn't have to pay for that on his insurance since he'll never need it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Knuckle Duster
As for dealing with the leeches, an easy solution to that is to address welfare abuse to cut those kind of people off. Make it so welfare, medicaid, etc. are for the truly disabled, less fortunate, etc. And not for generational welfare families who aren't actually trying because it's easier to just stay on welfare.
It also eliminates the drive to get out and make something better for yourself. Removing the burden/shame/stigma is part of why we have such a leeching problem with the welfare system these days as awful as that sounds. The people leeching off of it and abusing it have no shame. It's a cultural problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Knuckle Duster
The problem with a minimum wage is that when you arbitrarily raise it, all those businesses need to pay for it, not the government. What are those businesses going to do to compensate? Raise prices, cut jobs, cut other costs. So while that $15 may seem like a livable wage now, it won't be after it's implemented and prices go up and jobs go down to compensate. It's also part of why we're losing more industry. High minimum wage makes us less competitive in a global economy because it increases production costs which raises sale costs.
It can be made affordable without a universal healthcare system.Quote:
Originally Posted by Knuckle Duster
It's more about having the right to make your own choices for your own life, instead of having shit forced on you. Which is what a universal healthcare system does.Quote:
Originally Posted by Knuckle Duster
Poverty and desperation are not solved by more welfare and handouts. Contrary to what you may believe, it wasn't FDR and his new deal that got us out of the Great Depression. It was World War 2 kicking us into a wartime economy and creating tons of jobs. If that didn't happen, the Great Depression would have probably continued and those relief programs would have run out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Knuckle Duster
You can't exterminate or enslave them, but you can enforce the laws when they break them. When that kind of shit happened in the past, our Presidents sent in the National Guard and put an end to it. Our current President instead does nothing, if anything he encourages it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Knuckle Duster
Taxes are only one tool in the economic arsenal. Taxes are the best way to raise capital to spend on things needed to benefit the society as a whole. Lowering taxes can improve the economy but it can harm it as well. When taxes are increased the same can result. What everyone is missing here is that when you change the tax code you also need to modify spending accordingly. When the economy is booming or doing well taxes should be raised. When the economy is doing poorly the taxes should be lowered. The way the money is distributed changes for the worse when you cut high end tax rates - the 'wealthy' should be paying more in taxes so that the income doesn't mass into a small percentage of the population - that's bad for the economy.
In the 1950s the effective tax rate was 90% but the GDP was booming so it didn't really have any negative effects. Right now it's 35% and business is good so the tax rate SHOULD be increased (on the wealthy) now. I don't feel that Sanders is that out of touch with reality (in some ways he is). However in order for something like that to work the money collected needs to be spent wisely - that's the part where you don't have any sort of details.
I would propose a high (15-20%) national sales tax instead of corporate or income taxes - collected by the state revenue departments (and they keep a percentage) - though we'd need to determine if spending would need to be cut and by how much. THis forces even visitors to this country via tourism to help foot our tax bill - as well as any businesses buying goods.
This would probably spur businesses to set up shop but also may lower consumerism by some degree. But I think it would have minimal impact to those worried about the tax.Quote:
The individual and corporate income tax, the capital gains tax, and the estate and gift taxes would all be eliminated. In their place, a new national sales tax (NST) of 15-25% percent would be charged on the final purchase of all goods and services at the retail level. There would be a universal rebate for every household that would in effect exempt all consumption up to the poverty level. Households with total expenditures at and below the poverty level would therefore receive a rebate for every penny they paid for the NST.
Under this new system, April 15 would once again be just another day. Americans would have already paid their federal tax burden at the cash register throughout the course of the year. As a result, individual taxpayers would no longer have to spend countless hours filling out forms—or pay accountants to do so. And they would no longer be required to reveal to the IRS the intimate details of how they earned and spent their money.
Just my opinion though. What do you guys think of that? Blasphemy?
In Canada we have a national Goods & Services Tax. It's 5% on everything. There are basic things like groceries that get exempt.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raja
It was a Conservative game changer to bring in revenues that deal with the massive debt racked up under Liberal governments. The Conservatives in the '80s who implemented it were defeated by the Liberals who promised to get rid of it. (They got elected. They didn't keep their promises. Now it's second nature to have sales tax on everything. Typical Lieberals.) Almost all the provinces here have their own Provincial Sales Tax, or they link the two together into one Harmonized Sales Tax. It stands now between 5%-15% tax on everything you buy depending on which province you're in.
It makes no difference unless spending habits change. Canada's subnational governments still all spend beyond their means, and the Feds are always blamed for it.
Can you expect anything less when it seems the majority of Sanders supporters are kids who don't have any life experiences? They (and him as well) seem to think every issue is the responsibility of someone else. I'd like to talk to some of these kids in ten or fifteen years IF they have a job or pay taxes and see if they still subscribe to the theory of a Money Tree growing in the back yard of tax payers.Quote:
Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118
The difference in the US though is we also have State Taxes. For example I have my Federal Income Tax, but on top of that in Pennsylvania we have a 3% flat income tax, and a 6% sales tax on all goods except necessities(non-prepared/processed foods, toilet paper, etc.) When I was in Maryland it was insane. You still had the 6% sales tax but income tax was more inline with Federal in that there were brackets and my bracket was around 10-15% if I remember correctly. And that's not even getting into Local taxes or crazy things like if you registered your car in Maryland you had to pay Sales tax on it's current value, even if you bought the car years ago in another state and it was fully paid off.Quote:
Originally Posted by Knuckle Duster
So it's not just Federal taxes that you need to consider, you need to remember there's State and Local taxes that get factored in as well. So in some states those higher federal tax rates on top of already high state income tax rates really hurts.
Why is it that you feel the need to respond or even attempt to educate me on this matter?Quote:
Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118
A province in Canada is a state for all intents and purposes. It's not just Federal taxes that I need to consider? No shit, that's why I talked about the varying "state" or "subnational government" taxes already.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Knuckle Duster
What difference?Quote:
Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118
http://datatitian.com/why-voxs-numbe...-are-so-wrong/Quote:
Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118
http://datatitian.com/wp-content/upl...2/pooled-1.png
Having completed a thorough analysis of the impact of Bernie Sanders’s tax plans on incomes for individuals and families across the income spectrum, I was curious to see why the numbers in this article by Dylan Matthews in Vox were so different. Reviewing his analysis, I found that there were some analytical decisions we differed on, a few tax policies that Mr. Matthews omitted or implemented inaccurately, and some significant errors in his math. The result is that Matthews’s exaggerated all of the rates in Bernie’s plans. Even if we grant his decision to pool employee and employer taxes together, which I contend is misleading for a general audience, it turns out that his infamous 77% figure for the top bracket exceeds the real rate by nearly 10 points.
The figure above includes an accurate representation of total effective rates with taxes and average family healthcare costs included.
Additional links:
https://berniesanders.com/issues/how...his-proposals/
http://taxfoundation.org/comparing-2...form-proposals
The difference is you're talking about Sales tax while the rest of us are talking about Income tax. I lose 30% of my income right off the bat when Federal, State, and Local income taxes are all combined. Bernie's plan is going to raise it to at least that at just the federal level, before State and Local income tax is applied, and possibly even higher. And that's before my benefits like my health insurance and what not are factored in. That's not going to encourage me to spend more of my money to feed into the economy. It's going to encourage me to be more frugal. That kind of an Income tax will make spending habits change.Quote:
Originally Posted by Knuckle Duster
And here's the problem with your chart. It's saying right now that everyone pays an arbitrary percentage of their income on healthcare premiums. It ignores the fact that people have different options to choose from that can cost less than the percentage that's in there and not everyone is going to have that same out of pocket medical expense every year. Bernies Medicare tax however is a fixed rate that everyone will be forced to pay.Quote:
Originally Posted by retrospiel
It's trying to pass of hypothetical values and what if scenarios and say they're the same as a fixed tax that's forced on everyone.
As for the Payroll tax, the Vox article points out the very likely scenario of employees cutting pay or jobs due to the increase in payroll tax.
Right. Sales taxes, and income taxes by subnational governments. Raja brought up sales taxes and I digressed to that, after "the rest of us" were talking about income taxes.Quote:
Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118
But that would be too easy, right? You just need to do that thing, and be the constant wad you've always been on these forums, jumping in to be a pedant.