Digital Foundry (Official Thread)

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08-17-2017, 07:05 AM
Team Andromeda

Quote:

Originally Posted by j_factor

Even that article doesn't explain why Square was so hell-bent on only releasing games on one system for the entire generation.

Most prob because they got fantastic to deal with SONY and it was also nice clean hardware to make games on. I would image SONY offering to help publish the game over sea's helped as no doubt giving Square free development kits, maybe even helping with more Silicon graphics stations who know's what happens behind closed door's ,to get the team you want.
All I would say is there's nothing the Saturn couldn't really pull off with FF7. In 1996 the FMV and Sound issues were all being sorted and handle thanks to True Motion and CSK/SEGA own CRI tool set. FF 7 was hardly a looker or pushing insane amount of polygons, the 3D models were basic and the fully 3D Polygons battles had pretty terrible Gfx and simply an appalling frame rate (20 and sup 20 fps) . Shining Force III 3d Battles look far better, run at a higher res and at a much better frame rate too and that's from a tiny studio that was Team Sonic.
08-17-2017, 07:06 AM
Gogogadget

When one company is booming over everyone else, why would you even bother wasting resources to support the competition?
08-17-2017, 07:52 AM
Thief

Quote:

Originally Posted by gamevet

The Last of Us was eating the PS3 for breakfast. It really was a game that was too much for a console from 2006 and it was released months before the launch of the PS4. The PS4 version came out about a year later.

Well your idea for eating breakfast must be different from mine. ie. Think N64 eating SNES Star Fox for breakfast, or Dreamcast eating Saturn/Model 2 Daytona USA for breakfast, etc.
08-17-2017, 08:00 AM
Thief

Quote:

Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

Most prob because they got fantastic to deal with SONY and it was also nice clean hardware to make games on. I would image SONY offering to help publish the game over sea's helped as no doubt giving Square free development kits, maybe even helping with more Silicon graphics stations who know's what happens behind closed door's ,to get the team you want.
All I would say is there's nothing the Saturn couldn't really pull off with FF7. In 1996 the FMV and Sound issues were all being sorted and handle thanks to True Motion and CSK/SEGA own CRI tool set. FF 7 was hardly a looker or pushing insane amount of polygons, the 3D models were basic and the fully 3D Polygons battles had pretty terrible Gfx and simply an appalling frame rate (20 and sup 20 fps) . Shining Force III 3d Battles look far better, run at a higher res and at a much better frame rate too and that's from a tiny studio that was Team Sonic.

Camelot Software Planning. Formally known as "Sega CD4 (Consumer Development Studio #4) and Sonic! Software Planning." Not Sonic Team.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gogogadget

When one company is booming over everyone else, why would you even bother wasting resources to support the competition?

FF7 development didn't start in 1997.
08-17-2017, 09:43 AM
Team Andromeda

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thief

Camelot Software Planning. Formally known as "Sega CD4 (Consumer Development Studio #4) and Sonic! Software Planning." Not Sonic Team.

I was on about Camelot, they were known as Team Sonic, Sonic Co and just SONIC maybe others back in the day . It was hard to keep with them, I really wasn't on about the Sonic Team
08-17-2017, 09:46 AM
Team Andromeda

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gogogadget

When one company is booming over everyone else, why would you even bother wasting resources to support the competition?

That's a great point, but in 1996 the Saturn was the main system in Japan and SS had a history of only backing the dominant system in Japan at that stage, other wise it would be making games for the Mega Drive it was about systems selling the best in the west. I find it shame they didn't make games for SEGA or even the PC-Eng . Think their 16 bit RPG's would have been better on the Mega CD or PC-Eng CD ROM2 myself
08-17-2017, 08:52 PM
TrekkiesUnite118

Quote:

Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

Square were massive too and is not like smaller 3rd party developers couldn't handle developer for both systems like Atlus, Data East, Hudson, Koei, Human and loads of other's.

And Konami was bigger with multiple teams to work on multiple versions of 1 game across multiple platforms. They had an Arcade division as well as a home console division with teams geared towards different platforms. They had been supporting multiple platforms for quite a while by then and had the teams to keep doing it. Square didn't have any of that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

It was in the Spring of 1996 when Square said it was talking with various parties and would no longer be working with NCL. In late 1995 Square and NCL were still happily putting the finishing touches to Mario RPG.

They announced it in 1996, the decision was made in late 1995 though as you can get from the article I linked above that has people from Square, Sony, and Nintendo recounting the entire thing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

Most prob because they got fantastic to deal with SONY and it was also nice clean hardware to make games on. I would image SONY offering to help publish the game over sea's helped as no doubt giving Square free development kits, maybe even helping with more Silicon graphics stations who know's what happens behind closed door's ,to get the team you want.

Or that Nintendo didn't want them and the Saturn was dead after FF7 released. Yeah they did get a good deal from Sony as well, but that wasn't the only reason.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

All I would say is there's nothing the Saturn couldn't really pull off with FF7. In 1996 the FMV and Sound issues were all being sorted and handle thanks to True Motion and CSK/SEGA own CRI tool set. FF 7 was hardly a looker or pushing insane amount of polygons, the 3D models were basic and the fully 3D Polygons battles had pretty terrible Gfx and simply an appalling frame rate (20 and sup 20 fps) . Shining Force III 3d Battles look far better, run at a higher res and at a much better frame rate too and that's from a tiny studio that was Team Sonic.

Two words, Lighting and Transparency. The game uses those all over the place, the Saturn would struggle significantly with that. If you try to deny that, you're nothing but a deluded fanboy.
08-17-2017, 10:01 PM
gamevet

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thief

Well your idea for eating breakfast must be different from mine. ie. Think N64 eating SNES Star Fox for breakfast, or Dreamcast eating Saturn/Model 2 Daytona USA for breakfast, etc.

Uhhh...Dreamcast Daytona wasn't touching Model 2 Daytona.

The Last of Us dropped to below 15 fps and even as low as single digit fps whenever a Bloater exploded on the PS3 version. It would be so bad that you'd have a hard time maneuvering inside of the school gymnasium, because of the game literally becoming a slide show.

I'm going to call you out on this and say that you most obviously never played both versions.

Here you can see that the PS4 version very rarely dips (99% it's a solid 60) into the 50 fps range during the most heated moments of the game, while the PS3 game has a hard time even maintaining 30fps @ 720p.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-KDfab0c7Q
08-17-2017, 10:01 PM
Black_Tiger

Square didn't make FFVII for a super computer without limitations and then ported it to Playstation. It was designed around the strengths and weaknesses of the Playstation. The FFVII we got isn't the same game we would have seen had it been developed fot N64 or Saturn.

The 3D wasn't great for the time or by Playstation standards. The abuse of transparencies in FFVII is what first made me really take notice of the excessive dithering in Playstation games and led to it being my least favorite aspect of Playstation visuals.

A Saturn version of FFVII has the potential to not only be as nice looking or impressive overall as the only version that came to be, but could also surpass it. Panzer Dragoon Azel is a 3D Saturn RPG that is already much more impressive and genuinely superior artistically (which isn't a great compliment on its own). But many technically and artistically superior versions of FFVII could also be achieved on Playstation.

There's no point discounting or arguing over little things that wouldn't turn out the same in a 1-for-1 Saturn port, since any version that doesn't do what looks and works best on the target hardware is a waste of time and effort and the Playstation version itself is full of 3D flaws.

Fighting Force is proof of concept enough for the time period in its beta form. It's pretty much a FFVII beat 'em up and proves that not only could the Saturn handle the 3D portions of FFVII just fine, it could also do nice fully 3D versions of the dungeons and towns featuring the "realistic" character designs instead of super crude untextured chibi versions. The Playstation and N64 versions also prove how well they could have too.
08-17-2017, 11:15 PM
Thief

Quote:

Originally Posted by gamevet

Uhhh...Dreamcast Daytona wasn't touching Model 2 Daytona.

The Last of Us dropped to below 15 fps and even as low as single digit fps whenever a Bloater exploded on the PS3 version. It would be so bad that you'd have a hard time maneuvering inside of the school gymnasium, because of the game literally becoming a slide show.

I'm going to call you out on this and say that you most obviously never played both versions.

Here you can see that the PS4 version very rarely dips (99% it's a solid 60) into the 50 fps range during the most heated moments of the game, while the PS3 game has a hard time even maintaining 30fps @ 720p.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-KDfab0c7Q

I've been playing TLoU Remastered all day today, and I don't think I'll be playing it any further. I was correct with my original hunch on this game, it's just not replay friendly, at least not for me. Still, main reason I bought it again was for my sister to hopefully play it one day. She's not really a gamer and I'm curious if she'll last enough in this game to get hooked.

And no, still not a big enough generation leap for me when it's just double the frame rate and 720p to 1080p increase of a last gen release and still shows some signs of struggle.
08-18-2017, 12:35 AM
gamevet

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thief

I've been playing TLoU Remastered all day today, and I don't think I'll be playing it any further. I was correct with my original hunch on this game, it's just not replay friendly, at least not for me. Still, main reason I bought it again was for my sister to hopefully play it one day. She's not really a gamer and I'm curious if she'll last enough in this game to get hooked.

And no, still not a big enough generation leap for me when it's just double the frame rate and 720p to 1080p increase of a last gen release and still shows some signs of struggle.

It's not just double the frame rate. It has improved draw distance and textures. And it's a game that looks every bit as good as Uncharted 4, that was made for this generation's PS4. The only game on the PS4 that I think looks visually better than TLOU is Horizon: Zero Dawn, and that game runs at 30fps.

And no, I'm not buying into the BS that you just so happened to be playing TLOU all day today. TLOU is the one remaster this generation that actually provided a huge improvement over the last generation game, and that includes GTA V.
08-18-2017, 01:43 AM
Lan Di

Quote:

Originally Posted by gamevet

It's not just double the frame rate. It has improved draw distance and textures. And it's a game that looks every bit as good as Uncharted 4, that was made for this generation's PS4. The only game on the PS4 that I think looks visually better than TLOU is Horizon: Zero Dawn, and that game runs at 30fps.

And no, I'm not buying into the BS that you just so happened to be playing TLOU all day today. TLOU is the one remaster this generation that actually provided a huge improvement over the last generation game, and that includes GTA V.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to gamevet again.
08-18-2017, 02:27 AM
TrekkiesUnite118

Quote:

Originally Posted by Black_Tiger

Square didn't make FFVII for a super computer without limitations and then ported it to Playstation. It was designed around the strengths and weaknesses of the Playstation. The FFVII we got isn't the same game we would have seen had it been developed fot N64 or Saturn.

The 3D wasn't great for the time or by Playstation standards. The abuse of transparencies in FFVII is what first made me really take notice of the excessive dithering in Playstation games and led to it being my least favorite aspect of Playstation visuals.

A Saturn version of FFVII has the potential to not only be as nice looking or impressive overall as the only version that came to be, but could also surpass it. Panzer Dragoon Azel is a 3D Saturn RPG that is already much more impressive and genuinely superior artistically (which isn't a great compliment on its own). But many technically and artistically superior versions of FFVII could also be achieved on Playstation.

There's no point discounting or arguing over little things that wouldn't turn out the same in a 1-for-1 Saturn port, since any version that doesn't do what looks and works best on the target hardware is a waste of time and effort and the Playstation version itself is full of 3D flaws.

Fighting Force is proof of concept enough for the time period in its beta form. It's pretty much a FFVII beat 'em up and proves that not only could the Saturn handle the 3D portions of FFVII just fine, it could also do nice fully 3D versions of the dungeons and towns featuring the "realistic" character designs instead of super crude untextured chibi versions. The Playstation and N64 versions also prove how well they could have too.

This is nothing but completely oversimplifying what Final Fantasy VII does in it's battles. It's not just a flat floor that could be done with VDP2 like what Fighting Force does. Many of them have hills, slopes, ramps additional 3D objects to build a complex scene to fight on. Shining Force III and Panzer Dragoon Saga while great looking Saturn games do also show some limitations when compared to Final Fantasy VII. The character models have lower polygon counts and there's far less of them on screen at a time than what's in your typical Final Fantasy VII battle. On top of that there's tons of transparencies.

Again I'm not saying the Saturn couldn't run a game like it. I'm saying significant cuts and changes would need to be done to get it to work, and at that point it wouldn't be the same game. Could it look great for a Saturn game? Sure. Could there be some parts done better than the PS1 version? Sure, anything VDP2 could handle would probably come of nicer. Would it surpass the PS1 version and be more impressive overall? I highly doubt it. The cuts to Transparencies and lightings would be a big hit, and the geometry simplifications wouldn't be nice either. It would be a nice looking Saturn game, but it wouldn't be on the same level as the PS1 version most likely. VDP1's fillrate issues and the overall issues with transparencies, ligthing, and additive blending would be a major hit to the game.

I think you need to go refresh your memory on what all Final Fantasy VII does in it's battles:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0DMYG7u67Y

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27sbhTn7soM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4hOYTtyIxk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkaD5_R_Lus

As you can see, the battles are not just all on flat ground with 2D backgrounds. They're quite detailed. And even when you're not spamming summons there's still tons of lighting and transparencies going on. And on top of it all, the character and enemy models are much more detailed, and there's more of them on screen at a time than in Shining Force III or Panzer Dragoon Saga.
08-18-2017, 04:53 AM
Team Andromeda

Quote:

Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

And Konami was bigger with multiple teams to work on multiple versions of 1 game across multiple platforms.

If the likes of Atlus could work and handle multiple platforms or even Hudson, then so could Square.

Quote:

They announced it in 1996, the decision was made in late 1995 though as you can get from the article I linked above that has people from Square, Sony

I have it and it was Feb/March 96 when Square said they were in talks with various corps. Yes no doubt they were already in advanced talks long before they went public. But in 1995 they were still Nintendo and working with them on Mario RPG and was going to support the N64 DD drive. Nintendo didn't see this one coming

Quote:

Or that Nintendo didn't want them and the Saturn was dead after FF7 released

NCL didn't want the team that helped to make the Superfamicon massive in Japan, with FF6 selling over 2 million copies alone. It was a total cock up by NCL and hurt them massively in Japan, they go from having 90% of that market with the Super Famicom to losing it all.
While SONY goes from seeing the Saturn able to outselling the PS quite easy in Japan, to being totally and utterly dominate in Japan striaght after the FF7 demo

Quote:

Two words, Lighting and Transparency. The game uses those all over the place, the Saturn would struggle significantly with that.

Again why you being like this? When I say the PS could do better lighting and transparent effects in various threads, you call me idot make out I haven't a clue what I'm on about and give various examples from games like Burning Rangers, Sonic R and even Shining Force III. What gives?

Quote:

It's still using VDP1 transparencies exclusively with no meshes in a 3D game. It's being used for shadows, flames, smoke, and magic effects. I'd say that counts as a 3D game using real transparencies with no meshes. Shining Force III also uses real transparencies most of the time. The only time I remember seeing meshes is during enemy death animations.

That comes in any time I say the Saturn couldn't do 3D transparent effects, was the one the main reasons Saturn games looked worse and one area SEGA totally screwed up with Saturn Hardware . Even when I said MGS would be hard to do on the Saturn(a game full of Transparent and lighting effects in full) You jumped make out I was talking crap, only to now say the Saturn couldn't handle FF7?.
08-18-2017, 05:09 AM
Team Andromeda

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thief

Well your idea for eating breakfast must be different from mine. ie. Think N64 eating SNES Star Fox for breakfast, or Dreamcast eating Saturn/Model 2 Daytona USA for breakfast, etc.

Dreamcast couldn't handle SEGA Rally II, never mind Daytona USA 2 (which was most prob the best looking Model 3 game ever made). Star Fox 64 was hardly any sort of massive leap over Panzer Dragoon Zwei and its not like Sonic Adv left Mario 64 for dust in the GFX dept.
Drakes IV leaves even the PS3 Drakes look rather basic, Forza 6 is able to have far better GFX, more effects up the car total to 24 and up the screen Res to a native 1080p all at rock solid 60 fps. Its a big step up over Forza 4 imo and have you played Battlefield 4 on the PS4 and then play Battlefield 4 on the 306 or PS3, the gulf in Gfx is massive.

Sure we are not seeing the leaps of the 1990's, but 3D tech, tools, and people skills in making 3D games has matured to such an extent, I doubt we see the massive leaps we once did. Even on the PC the jump is GFX cards are not as huge as the jumps from Power VR to Power VR II or at least don't look like such a leap

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