Digital Foundry (Official Thread)

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Originally Posted by bultje112

did you play half-life on the dreamcast? the version wasn't even finished and played really well I have to say. only big downpart is the loading times due to it not being finished.

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Yes and it was a mess, despite being in production for ages and with endless delays. It wasn't just the loading times, but the frame rate too. I wasn't impressed with the team early Set 2 Kantan demos (which looked like it was out of Bladerunner in part). The team kept missing their deadlines and targets only for the game to be canned, when this game would have really helped the DC imo. Contrast that to the port skills of Raster for Quake III (with a more advanced engine) or even Secret Level for Unreal and it was a non contest. But really SEGA should have either bought out Lobotomy or at least injected some cash to them, when they had cash flow issues and had them handle the port and then Exhumed II for the DC.

Can confirm no one really cared about Doom at the time. Well, there was a fan made port, but it wasn't great.

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Originally Posted by bultje112

wen half-life came nobody cared about doom anymore. only in the past few years they have due to nostalgia.

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That happened earlier than Half-life. Even as early as when FPS games started using 3D models instead of sprites. I remember DOOM 64 (released in early 1997) having mediocre reviews mostly because of how obsolete it's engine was, despite how good the maps were designed. It was also the time when enemy AI was getting a boost and newer games added stealth elements in them. On the N64 front, everyone just wanted to play Goldeneye, nobody cared about Doom.

But again, i don't agree with this stance, personally. It's not about how the game engine looks but how the actual game plays. DOOM and Quake 1 play a lot different than Quake 2 or Half-life for instance. The later are more linear, scripted and event based. The maps are there just for you to traverse and nothing more.

Doom and Quake were more like "survive the map and find the exit" kind of deal, using sprawling maps that you actually have to solve and are an obstacle themselves. This kind of gameplay is almost extinct now and it has nothing to do with nostalgia. It's just a different kind of game design philosophy that maybe requires a tiny bit of attention span and you can't have that in mainstream games anymore.

I don't know if this really belongs here, but it's really interesting to see how the Xbox One handles backwards compatibility with the original Xbox and Xbox 360. It's pretty impressive.

I always wondered where the whole 'level exit' idea came from. I first encountered it in Descent, then Doom, then the idea disappeared forever.

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Originally Posted by Blades

I always wondered where the whole 'level exit' idea came from. I first encountered it in Descent, then Doom, then the idea disappeared forever.

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It existed in older 2D games for a long time. In 3D games i remember Wolfenstein and catacomb 3D being like this. The idea was simply solving a map through exploration. Find a key, solve a "map puzzle", figure out how to gain access to a platform that you can't reach, etc. Even after you beaten the enemies, the map itself was like a separate challenge. DOOM and Quake were exceptional with this thanks to more advanced engines that allowed more complex maps coupled with excellent level design.

Quake 1 and DOOM 64 were the last FPS games i played that had this though. After Quake 2 and Half-Life, action FPS games were just about the story and constant progression. DOOM 2016 kinda tried to bring this map design back but it wasn't as good IMO because you still had all those map markers and directions. The challenge was mostly in finding the secrets and all items so i guess it was good for me.

I blame mainstream gaming catering to the average joe with zero attention span. Most players today would complain non-stop in a classic DOOM game for "being lost" for more than 6 seconds and having to figure out where to go themselves. Because the process of figuring out where to go is not an interesting gameplay element anymore. It's considered a design fault in most modern games. Like how "backtracking" is a taboo word that offends most gamers today.

^Good info.

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Originally Posted by Tower of Power

Can confirm no one really cared about Doom at the time. Well, there was a fan made port, but it wasn't great.

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Doom was old hat an out of date, with outdated design and gfx.

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Originally Posted by gamevet

I don't know if this really belongs here, but it's really interesting to see how the Xbox One handles backwards compatibility with the original Xbox and Xbox 360. It's pretty impressive.

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Yeah, had this video posted here for like a few seconds, then realized the title of thread was for Saturn, PS1 and N64. So deleted it even though I enjoyed said video too. Should have just left it as this should be just the default Digital Foundry thread, they do other good works outside of Saturn, PS1 and N64.

Anyway, what I was saying in that deleted post was how generally between PS3 & 360 ports, the 360 usually always came out on top with the superior ports. And now with this, the 360 version via X-Bone X are definitely the superior ports if we're not including PC versions of this these games.

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Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

Doom was old hat by date, with outdated design and gfx.

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Outdated gfx, sure, it's a 1993 game. Outdated design though, i disagree. While the enemies don't have any good AI, the map design is amazing for the most part. I'd say it has some of the best designed maps i ever played in FPS games. I don't remember any modern FPS games having as intricate and sprawling maps and at the same time being easy enough for someone with little dedication to complete without markers and a GPS.

The art direction also holds up today, which also helps i think.

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Originally Posted by Soulis

Outdated gfx, sure, it's a 1993 game. Outdated design though, i disagree. While the enemies don't have any good AI, the map design is amazing for the most part. I'd say it has some of the best designed maps i ever played in FPS games. I don't remember any modern FPS games having as intricate and sprawling maps and at the same time being easy enough for someone with little dedication to complete without markers and a GPS.

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It was outdated to me after I played Dark Forces on the 486 and by the time of Duke Nukem 3D and Exhumed (which had the best level of design of any FPS), it was well and truly dated then you can add in the likes of Prime too

Markers and GPS, not all maze like games need to have this. Part of the fun can be figuring it all out yourself too, but sadly flexing that ol' gray matter isn't very trendy these days.

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Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

It was outdated to me after I played Dark Forces on the 486 and by the time of Duke Nukem 3D and Exhumed (which had the best level of design of any FPS), it was well and truly dated then you can add in the likes of Prime too

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Eh, Duke Nukem had some very nice levels in terms of map design but most of them weren't as good as DOOM's IMO. The first couple of maps are iconic though. I agree Exhumed has very good design but i played that very late since i didn't have a Saturn and i hear it's the only version that's worth playing, is that true?

DOOM 64 also had some incredible maps that even had moving parts that transformed whole sections. That was a nice evolution in this kind of design but then linear path + scripted games took over so i don't remember other games being like this.

What matters though is that all these games share a similar design philosophy so they are all good in my book.

Metroid Prime is amazing ofc but it's different in that it doesn't have "levels". It's one big map that you explore and open up. I also love System Shock 2, Bioshock and PREY for this style.

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Originally Posted by Soulis

Eh, Duke Nukem had some very nice levels in terms of map design but most of them weren't as good as DOOM's IMO. The first couple of maps are iconic though. I agree Exhumed has very good design but i played that very late since i didn't have a Saturn and i hear it's the only version that's worth playing, is that true?.

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I just enjoyed Duke more, it was more fun and it had much greater variety between levels. Exhumed was awesome for its level design and the way it mixed in Super Metroid gameplay with a Doom-style engine. Saturn version looks the best, but the PS version plays much the same and some Saturn people make far too much of the differences, but the realy challenge with Exhumed was the Team Dolls mode thats when you really saw how skillfull the level desgin was. Exhumed was very much the forerunner to Prime . Doom 64 was a great version of the game, but it came too late for me and I already moved on from it after playing the likes of Exhumed, Duke and Turok Ect

The Wolfenstein 3D design was pretty much the original Apple II overhead game put into a 3D world. It put gaming on a Apple computer on the map.