Sonic Mania/ Sonic Mania Plus (XB1, PS4, PC, Switch)

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Originally Posted by QuickSciFi

Sonic Forces looks just like Generations. I loved Generations. I also love the fact that it is going to be $39.99. Fantastic price for a game I'm definitely going to want to play anyways.

P.S.> I've been trying to express this for the longest time, but never seem to find the right words, or the right time for it. But the fact is, every single Sonic game I have ever played I have enjoyed and liked. Some have taken me a bit longer to get used to; but the end result has always been the same, I ended up enjoying the shit out of them. Spinball, Sonic Adventure 2, Sonic 3D Blast (especially on the Saturn), and everything 7th gen and up that I have delved into. What I'm getting at is, it's all subjective at the end of the day. I know it has been said before, but the fact remains that it's become "popular" to hate on Sonic games beyond 1,2,3, Knuckles, CD and, to an extent, Sonic Adventure 1. It's like those are the only ones that complainers just keep going back to as "the only ones that were any good". I don't know, but I have played a ton of games. And I have seen some really bad ones, and some very terrible ones. I have not yet played one single Sonic game that falls into any of those two categories. And the more Sonic games I play, the more this "hype-to-detest" just becomes clearer and clearer in my mind. I don't care what others enjoy, tbh. I care what I like and what I consider to be good gameplay myself. But, then again, the same thing has occurred with virtually every other franchise I've enjoyed. Either a small subset or a huge portion of the fanbase just doesn't quite cope with a particular game or franchise, then it becomes the "popular" thing to hate on it, and the shit hits the fan. And thus the cycle continues.

P.S.S.> People can say anything they want about the Sonic games I haven't yet played. I have no clue what they're like. But from the many that I have, I can undoubtedly attest that they have been thoroughly enjoyable experiences in my game room. And I can only hope others can find as much enjoyment as I have with whatever other franchise or game of their particular fancy. Because that's what it's all about. Fun.

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Can't rep. It's like someone took my thoughts and put them into words the way I never could.

Generations was fine. Sonic Forces looks to be a step backwards. Think about it. Another Greenhill Zone? Again?

I think Sonic Forces looks fine, aside from the music. The music is indeed pretty bad.

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Originally Posted by QuickSciFi

P.S.> I've been trying to express this for the longest time, but never seem to find the right words, or the right time for it. But the fact is, every single Sonic game I have ever played I have enjoyed and liked. Some have taken me a bit longer to get used to; but the end result has always been the same, I ended up enjoying the shit out of them. Spinball, Sonic Adventure 2, Sonic 3D Blast (especially on the Saturn), and everything 7th gen and up that I have delved into.

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I'm the same way for the most part, but I've intentionally avoided the handful of truly bad-looking Sonic games, namely Sonic 2006, Shadow the Hedgehog, Sonic & the Black Knight, Sonic Shuffle, and Sonic Boom. However I did play and legitimately dislike Sonic 4. And Sonic Blast, if we're going back. I even liked Sonic Labyrinth, Sonic Heroes, and Sonic & the Secret Rings. Not to say they were the best games ever, but they were enjoyable enough.

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Originally Posted by QuickSciFi

Either a small subset or a huge portion of the fanbase just doesn't quite cope with a particular game or franchise, then it becomes the "popular" thing to hate on it, and the shit hits the fan. And thus the cycle continues.

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The Internet is an echo chamber. We have people thinking that E.T. is "OMG the worst ever" because they're going around parroting what some YouTube idiot said. The "Sonic Cycle" is just part of that negative hivemind, and I also believe much of it stems from the Internet being controlled (sounds ominous, but it's correct) by American 80s Nintendo fans. Was Sonic Unleash any worse than Super Mario Sunshine? Both introduced unusual gameplay additions to beloved franchises: Sonic gets raked over the coals, but Mario is given a pass and quietly forgotten as if it never existed. Neither is a bad game, but the Internet only remembers one of them for it.

I'd say Shadow the Hedgehog kicked off the whole "Sonic sucks" mentality, and it became the default attitude to have if you play games. "OMG he has a gun!" I'd agree it's not a direction the series should have taken. I hate Shadow as a character in that universe. It's still a decent game. Too bad no one bothered giving it a chance. Seems like after that, any perceived flaw in a Sonic game got magnified a million times, and the franchise gradually found itself buried under a pile a terrible reviews.

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Originally Posted by BonusKun

Generations was fine. Sonic Forces looks to be a step backwards. Think about it. Another Greenhill Zone? Again?

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If not Green Hill Zone it would just be a Green Hill Zone clone so why bother pretending I guess?

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Originally Posted by j_factor

I think Sonic Forces looks fine, aside from the music. The music is indeed pretty bad.

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Yeah, I enjoyed Colors and Generations and it seems like more of the same so I'll probably enjoy Forces as well. I don't know what went wrong with the music though, it's ear grating.

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Originally Posted by Benjamin

I'd say Shadow the Hedgehog kicked off the whole "Sonic sucks" mentality, and it became the default attitude to have if you play games. "OMG he has a gun!" I'd agree it's not a direction the series should have taken. I hate Shadow as a character in that universe. It's still a decent game. Too bad no one bothered giving it a chance. Seems like after that, any perceived flaw in a Sonic game got magnified a million times, and the franchise gradually found itself buried under a pile a terrible reviews.

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This is pretty true. Original the Character (do not steal) added this layer of cornball edginess that was far too easy to mock.

However I think it was easily '06 that solidified the "Sonic is terrible" zeitgeist. There was a lot of hype at the time for next gen Sonic and what they released was a game that was weird to begin with and broken and unfinished on top of that weirdness. The kind of mediocre Wii games weren't enough to pull the franchise out of the fire, nor were the pretty good handheld titles of the time. Unfortunately Sonic Mania being the hit it is also means that modern Sonic games have an even steeper hill to climb in terms of positive recognition, and now it even seems like a lot of people have simply forgotten that Colors and Generations were pretty well recieved.

Forces probably isn't going to be a terrible game but it's also probably not going to be the game it needs to be to avoid being completely trashed. I'm honestly not a big fan of 3D Sonic but when it works it's fun and I think it gets treated a little unfairly.

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Originally Posted by Benjamin

The Internet is an echo chamber. We have people thinking that E.T. is "OMG the worst ever" because they're going around parroting what some YouTube idiot said. The "Sonic Cycle" is just part of that negative hivemind, and I also believe much of it stems from the Internet being controlled (sounds ominous, but it's correct) by American 80s Nintendo fans. Was Sonic Unleash any worse than Super Mario Sunshine? Both introduced unusual gameplay additions to beloved franchises: Sonic gets raked over the coals, but Mario is given a pass and quietly forgotten as if it never existed. Neither is a bad game, but the Internet only remembers one of them for it.

I'd say Shadow the Hedgehog kicked off the whole "Sonic sucks" mentality, and it became the default attitude to have if you play games. "OMG he has a gun!" I'd agree it's not a direction the series should have taken. I hate Shadow as a character in that universe. It's still a decent game. Too bad no one bothered giving it a chance. Seems like after that, any perceived flaw in a Sonic game got magnified a million times, and the franchise gradually found itself buried under a pile a terrible reviews.

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Nah, Sonic Heroes got criticized hard as well. In fact, this was a thing since Sonic Adventure: the physics are completely awful compared to the 2D games (kind of a huge issue for a franchises that prided itself on them) and people also complained about how Sega was putting so much focus on the other characters instead of Sonic. Although those games started being seen with nicer eyes the moment Sonic '06 came out and showed just how bad things could get...

They were more forgiving about Sonic itself during the Saturn era since Sonic didn't have any proper main games, but that was over with Sonic Adventure which was a main game. Also that Sega had completely trashed their reputation as a company with how awful the Saturn fared made them an easy punchbag (Sonic going downhill was the icing on the cake the critics needed).

Rollingstone interviews Christian Whitehead about his experience working on Sonic Mania and other things.

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Originally Posted by BonusKun

Generations was fine. Sonic Forces looks to be a step backwards. Think about it. Another Greenhill Zone? Again?

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I don't know, broham. I agree with most of your assessments. But I don't think this means it's a step backwards. More like a step "samewards", at most. It would be like saying every reboot or old-school allegory a la Mania is a step backwards. I'm not opposed to sameness, as long as it's a fresh new take and it is "fun". It's not like it represents the game, or gameplay, will be bad or not fun. I'm looking at Colors and Generations and they were both fantastic games. I think Forces will provide, me at least, a lot of enjoyment. And that's why I'm going to play it.

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Originally Posted by j_factor

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I'm the same way for the most part, but I've intentionally avoided the handful of truly bad-looking Sonic games, namely Sonic 2006, Shadow the Hedgehog, Sonic & the Black Knight, Sonic Shuffle, and Sonic Boom. However I did play and legitimately dislike Sonic 4. And Sonic Blast, if we're going back. I even liked Sonic Labyrinth, Sonic Heroes, and Sonic & the Secret Rings. Not to say they were the best games ever, but they were enjoyable enough.

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I've heard a lot of bad things about Sonic Boom: Rise of Lyric. Which is also really bad for those who have shied-away from the 3DS games (Shattered Crystal and Fire & Ice); which are actually fantastic. I hope you get a chance to play them one day.

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Originally Posted by Benjamin

The Internet is an echo chamber. We have people thinking that E.T. is "OMG the worst ever" because they're going around parroting what some YouTube idiot said. The "Sonic Cycle" is just part of that negative hivemind, and I also believe much of it stems from the Internet being controlled (sounds ominous, but it's correct) by American 80s Nintendo fans. Was Sonic Unleash any worse than Super Mario Sunshine? Both introduced unusual gameplay additions to beloved franchises: Sonic gets raked over the coals, but Mario is given a pass and quietly forgotten as if it never existed. Neither is a bad game, but the Internet only remembers one of them for it.

I'd say Shadow the Hedgehog kicked off the whole "Sonic sucks" mentality, and it became the default attitude to have if you play games. "OMG he has a gun!" I'd agree it's not a direction the series should have taken. I hate Shadow as a character in that universe. It's still a decent game. Too bad no one bothered giving it a chance. Seems like after that, any perceived flaw in a Sonic game got magnified a million times, and the franchise gradually found itself buried under a pile a terrible reviews.

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No worries. I wholeheartedly agree. It's inevitable. There were more NES and SNES systems sold than SMS and Geneses. There are idiot fans on both sides regardless, but the fact remains that more Nintendo systems sold meant more idiot Nintendo fans than idiot Sega fans bad mouthing the other side. So the Nintendo fans won the bad-mouthing bout. At the end of the day, all we can do is stay true to ourselves and know that there are still level-headed fans on both sides aplenty :). I know I lived it and can make my own mind about what really happened. Same as you, of course. I'm just glad there is another gamer out there who can think objectively as you do.

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Originally Posted by Sik

Nah, Sonic Heroes got criticized hard as well. In fact, this was a thing since Sonic Adventure: the physics are completely awful compared to the 2D games (kind of a huge issue for a franchises that prided itself on them) and people also complained about how Sega was putting so much focus on the other characters instead of Sonic. Although those games started being seen with nicer eyes the moment Sonic '06 came out and showed just how bad things could get...

They were more forgiving about Sonic itself during the Saturn era since Sonic didn't have any proper main games, but that was over with Sonic Adventure which was a main game. Also that Sega had completely trashed their reputation as a company with how awful the Saturn fared made them an easy punchbag (Sonic going downhill was the icing on the cake the critics needed).

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This.

IMHO the 3D series just took the wrong path in terms of what they decided to prioritize for the future of the series. I think Colors and Generations were the most polished they could get and they're good games mostly thanks to that.
Sonic Forces looks noticeably cheaper than those two and it's another step in the wrong direction of Sonic's universe IMO. But to each his own.

I don't like 3D platformers that much, so take my opinion with a grain of salt.


Back on topic, Sonic Mania fits well along with the MD iteration and Sonic CD; but I still think Sonic 1, 2 and 3 are far more enjoyable. I'd probably play Sonic Mania instead of Sonic & Knuckles and, surely, over Sonic CD though.
In the context of the usual "retro" platformers output nowadays and the likes of Sonic 4; Sonic Mania is kind of a miracle.

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Originally Posted by Benjamin

The Internet is an echo chamber. We have people thinking that E.T. is "OMG the worst ever" because they're going around parroting what some YouTube idiot said. The "Sonic Cycle" is just part of that negative hivemind, and I also believe much of it stems from the Internet being controlled (sounds ominous, but it's correct) by American 80s Nintendo fans. Was Sonic Unleash any worse than Super Mario Sunshine? Both introduced unusual gameplay additions to beloved franchises: Sonic gets raked over the coals, but Mario is given a pass and quietly forgotten as if it never existed. Neither is a bad game, but the Internet only remembers one of them for it.

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I almost never agree with the hive mind mentality of majority, but in Sonic's case, I'll make the exception.

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Originally Posted by Thief

I almost never agree with the hive mind mentality of majority, but in Sonic's case, I'll make the exception.

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Thief. I love you broham. But all you seem to do is "agree with the hive mind mentality of majority". Come on now.

http://memes.ucoz.com/_nw/47/54000249.jpg

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Originally Posted by QuickSciFi

No worries. I wholeheartedly agree. It's inevitable. There were more NES and SNES systems sold than SMS and Geneses. There are idiot fans on both sides regardless, but the fact remains that more Nintendo systems sold meant more idiot Nintendo fans than idiot Sega fans bad mouthing the other side. So the Nintendo fans won the bad-mouthing bout. At the end of the day, all we can do is stay true to ourselves and know that there are still level-headed fans on both sides aplenty :). I know I lived it and can make my own mind about what really happened. Same as you, of course. I'm just glad there is another gamer out there who can think objectively as you do.

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Don't forget the obvious one: Nintendo has never blundered as hard as Sega. Remember that Sega ended up getting kicked out of the console market (while Nintendo manages to stay there even when they screw up hard). You simply can't be a Sega fanboy without acknowledging that they aren't perfect, because it's a huge part of their history. Nintendo fanboys are way more likely to act like their favorite company can do no wrong.

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Originally Posted by Sik

Nah, Sonic Heroes got criticized hard as well.

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What? No it didn't. Not sure why, but people loved it at the time. At the time, people would talk about how the environments were "classic Sonic" inspired. Sonic Adventure was equally loved, even when it was re-released on the GC.

IMO Sonic Adventure was one of the best entries in the series and remains so to this day. Sonic '06 would've been epic if they actually, you know, finished it.

Also, I like this track.

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Originally Posted by Sik

Nah, Sonic Heroes got criticized hard as well.

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It had its criticisms for where it was bad just like any other game, but it's nowhere in the same league when it comes to general ridicule and disgust. Reviews would back that up as well (Shadow the Hedgehog vs. Sonic Heroes). Besides, Sonic Heroes didn't come out until two years after Shadow.

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Originally Posted by Sik

Don't forget the obvious one: Nintendo has never blundered as hard as Sega. Remember that Sega ended up getting kicked out of the console market (while Nintendo manages to stay there even when they screw up hard). You simply can't be a Sega fanboy without acknowledging that they aren't perfect, because it's a huge part of their history. Nintendo fanboys are way more likely to act like their favorite company can do no wrong.

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I do agree with this, and generally speaking I think that's exactly why Sega fans tend to be more critical and aware than a typical Nintendo fan. If you were in America with an SMS, then you began as an outsider. Genesis did great, but then comes the 32X and Saturn, and you're kicked back to the curb. You had to be aware of the competition since that's where the games were. Most Saturn fans were acutely aware of the import scene due to the situation they were in. How many can say that for Nintendo players during its heyday? Nintendo fans largely live in a bubble because they just were able to do it and be happy without knowing about competing platforms. It's the difference between a follower of Top 40 radio or Pitchfork.

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Originally Posted by Benjamin

Was Sonic Unleash any worse than Super Mario Sunshine?

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Yes.

One is terrible, and one is average. The Mario game is not terrible.

Also yeah Green Hill Zone x1853472762486. Why would I want to play the most boring, uninspired Sonic stage of all time over and over again in every fucking game?