Why do people have issues with others not being fans of the SNES?

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Originally Posted by Thief

I don't know, didn't seem like these two were fighting to me. And I much enjoyed the read on this nice lazy Sunday early afternoon.

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I'm having a wonderful time here actually.

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Originally Posted by Sik

One thing I don't like about fake scanlines is that everybody gets them wrong. Scanlines are more pronounced with dark shades, bright shades tend to make the line thicker (because more phosphor gets excited by the beam). If you have a white screen and the scanlines are blatant, something is wrong. On the other hand, if the screen is showing dark gray the scanlines should be as blatant as possible.
I think it was "makes it look like an emulator would" (in regards to video quality, i.e. sharp pixels) which is probably correct.

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Exactly my points.
IDK why people take so much offense when we refer to emulation.

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Originally Posted by Sik

One thing I don't like about fake scanlines is that everybody gets them wrong. Scanlines are more pronounced with dark shades, bright shades tend to make the line thicker (because more phosphor gets excited by the beam). If you have a white screen and the scanlines are blatant, something is wrong. On the other hand, if the screen is showing dark gray the scanlines should be as blatant as possible.


I think it was "makes it look like an emulator would" (in regards to video quality, i.e. sharp pixels) which is probably correct.

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When it comes to scanlines, there ain't nothing like the real thing. The best we can do is approximate it. I think the Framemeister is good enough for most people who are after scan lines. Though I would be interested to see someone write a really accurate scanline generator taking into account the phenomena you describe. I wonder if such a thing exists already...

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Originally Posted by Black_Tiger

Playing 240p console games through RGB looks just like arcade games from bitd, which were directly hooked up to RGB monitors. Seeing the pixelart is not a bad thing and 16-bit arcade games on giant arcade monitors never looked hideous. Just the opposite.

Although I don't like the look of 240p games on digital screens, the captured upcaled footage does look noticeably different from emulation and feels solid. You get the pros of perfect picture quality without any of the cons from emulation.

It still has an uncanny valley sort of feel to it on digital screens and if I was forced to [i]play[/p] on one, I would never consider ruining it with fake scanlines or other filters and I'd rather play fast-response console games on a crt with stock composite than deal with the lag from both the framemeister (no matter how tiny) and hdtvs.

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The bigger lag is going to come from the HDTV itself. The best thing would be to find a gaming PC monitor with really low lag.

If it's contrast ratio you're after, then a good plasma or OLED screen should fit the bill. A cheap LED or LCD Black Friday Walmart special is going to have terrible contrast ratio.

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Originally Posted by EyeDeeNo76

Looks better with a resource pack my preferred is Faithful texture pack don't want to change Minecraft to much.

Edit: So I have been digging and looks like the "Frame" is old news with potentially better options. Open Source Scan Converter looks very promising Flygon. Some maybe wondering why would I even be thinking about an upscaler when I have a CRT just thinking what to do after that old equipment stops functioning but one thing that keeps kicking me in the back of head is "what about your light guns and light gun games?" I have quite bit and it will feel like a great loss to me.

Edit2: But than again as this stuff ages so do I, in December I will be turning 40! Who knows how long this vessel of witch I'm contained within can keep up with hobby that I have been doing most of my life... along with others as well.

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I think the OSSC is quite promising and a viable option that didn't exist until fairly recently. Haven't tried one out myself, but from what I hear, it functions differently from the Framemeister.

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Originally Posted by Barone

The fake scanlines are a joke IMO.
But it has become some sort of seal of quality for elitists such as TA.
It really doesn't make sense when you don't have the kind of brightness and contrast of a good CRT (the ultra slim ones also lack in the area but they usually don't feature thick scanlines either).

The edges are still quite sharper than you have on RGB + CRT, especially in the peripheral areas of the screen. It can be good and it can be bad, depending on which system and which game you're running on it.
Metal Slug looked great, Magic Knight Rayearth not so much IMO.

And the capture thing I was referring to was stuff like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yX1vxr5PGU

The scanlines look like shit thanks to YouTube's compression; maybe at 1080p with more bandwidth it could look OK; but as it is it only contributed to make the image darker, less accurate to actual thing and filled with artifacts.
Recent Retro Core captures have the same issue. TA and that guy seem to be members of the same church.

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This post made me LOL.

TA - I think Barone is purposely trying to rile you up, best to ignore him, no way he's actually this ignorant.

Framemeister fanboys unite! Someone critized it, OMG!!!
:lol:


But sadly no insult will remove the artifacts nor it will fix the image brightness and contrast. :(
http://i.imgur.com/FFlMeUQ.png

Why are those scanlines so skinny?

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Originally Posted by Tower of Power

TA - I think Barone is purposely trying to rile you up, best to ignore him, no way he's actually this ignorant.

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I think you're right. Its quite clear he's never used the unit or even seen one in action for real and totally missed the point of the unit too . Ingronce is bliss

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Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

Ingronce is bliss

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:nod:

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Originally Posted by Barone

Framemeister fanboys unite! Someone critized it, OMG!!!
:lol:


But sadly no insult will remove the artifacts nor it will fix the image brightness and contrast. :(
http://i.imgur.com/FFlMeUQ.png

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I have to assume you're taking the piss, trying to rile up TA by doing the same thing he does - taking screenshots and YouTube videos out of context.

It's a known issue with the Framemeister that scanlines don't look right at 1080p - everyone knows this, and to pretend like you it's not a known issue is just ignorance on your part. Also, it's a known issue that scanlines from the Framemeister don't look right on YouTube, that's why channels like Game Sack and My Life in Gaming tend to capture footage with the scanlines turned off, unless they're doing a close up. Maybe you should buy one instead of relying on YouTube screen caps? Makes me laugh that you would even try to do that.

Also, the scanlines out of the box are mainly designed for use with 720p. If you want to use them with 1080p, you will probably want to get some good profiles made, the ones from the Pixel Purist work pretty good for me. Otherwise they will look uneven like in the screenshot you posted. Scanlines on the Frameister are by no means perfect, the best scanlines come from a CRT. Maybe a separate SLG would work better if you're really picky about it. But the Framemeister is not a scanline generator first and foremost, so critisizing it for that is like 10% of what it does. If everything is configured coffectly, the scanlines from it look pretty decent for 2D stuff like the Genesis. I also like to have them on if I'm running something on composite input, it masks some of the composite video artifacts. I tend to turn them off if I'm running early 3D stuff like Virtua Fighter. But that's the thing with the Framemeister - if you don't like how something looks, you can turn it off/tweak it, by no means are you required to run the Framemeister with scanlines on.

The Framemeister is by no means perfect, but scanlines are far from the biggest issue - people complain about the colors not being right, and often, the analog to digital conversion can be noisy, it doesn't handle resolution changes very well, and from what I hear it doesn't handle 480p very well (haven't tried it myself). So to criticize it so heavily for that is just ignorant and laughable.

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Originally Posted by Tower of Power

I have to assume you're taking the piss, trying to rile up TA by doing the same thing he does - taking screenshots and YouTube videos out of context.

It's a known issue with the Framemeister that scanlines don't look right at 1080p - everyone knows this, and to pretend like you it's not a known issue is just ignorance on your part. Also, it's a known issue that scanlines from the Framemeister don't look right on YouTube, that's why channels like Game Sack and My Life in Gaming tend to capture footage with the scanlines turned off, unless they're doing a close up. Maybe you should buy one instead of relying on YouTube screen caps? Makes me laugh that you would even try to do that.

Also, the scanlines out of the box are mainly designed for use with 720p. If you want to use them with 1080p, you will probably want to get some good profiles made, the ones from the Pixel Purist work pretty good for me. Otherwise they will look uneven like in the screenshot you posted. Scanlines on the Frameister are by no means perfect, the best scanlines come from a CRT. Maybe a separate SLG would work better if you're really picky about it. But the Framemeister is not a scanline generator first and foremost, so critisizing it for that is like 10% of what it does. If everything is configured coffectly, the scanlines from it look pretty decent for 2D stuff like the Genesis. I also like to have them on if I'm running something on composite input, it masks some of the composite video artifacts. I tend to turn them off if I'm running early 3D stuff like Virtua Fighter. But that's the thing with the Framemeister - if you don't like how something looks, you can turn it off/tweak it, by no means are you required to run the Framemeister with scanlines on.

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The video I linked doesn't even have a 1080p option, lol. You'd know that if you had actually watched it instead of insulted me multiple times for no reason.

All that I said is that Youtube has a limited bandwidth for each resolution, it's also a well known fact. And it sucks because it forces you to upscale videos in order to avoid compression artifacts as much as possible.
I didn't say TA had to record it at 1080p or even force Framemeister to work at 1080p. But he'll probably get less artifacts in his youtube videos if he can upscale it to 1080p prior uploading.
You should know that, Mr. Expert.

Like I said, people such as you and TA like to brag about stuff they own as if it would put themselves on a different level or grant them any kind of superiority in discussions.
The captured image is filled with artifacts and its brightness and contrast is ruined. I don't need to spent ‎£200 to notice and comment about that, no, thanks.

By the way, the "logic" of having to own everything in order to have the "right" to understand how things work is the opposite of being wise and having expertise on something.

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Originally Posted by Barone

The video I linked doesn't even have a 1080p option, lol. You'd know that if you had actually watched it instead of insulted me multiple times for no reason.

All that I said is that Youtube has a limited bandwidth for each resolution, it's also a well known fact. And it sucks because it forces you to upscale videos in order to avoid compression artifacts as much as possible.
I didn't say TA had to record it at 1080p or even force Framemeister to work at 1080p. But he'll probably get less artifacts in his youtube videos if he can upscale it to 1080p prior uploading.
You should know that, Mr. Expert.

Like I said, people such as you and TA like to brag about stuff they own as if it would put themselves on a different level or grant them any kind of superiority in discussions.
The captured image is filled with artifacts and its brightness and contrast is ruined. I don't need to spent ‎£200 to see notice and comment about that, no, thanks.

By the way, the "logic" of having to own everything in order to have the "right" to understand how things work is the opposite of being wise and having expertise on something.

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You don't HAVE to own it, but if you're attempting to speak with authority on the subject (which you are) it's much better to speak from the experience of actually owning it, rather than the ignorance of not owning it. You are ignorant about the Framemeister, that is a fact, and the things you are saying are ignorant and wrong. And that's not an insult, that is a fact. You don't have to own one, they're not for everyone, you don't even have to like them, but if you're going to spew false information about it, you're going to get called out on it. You say the scanlines on the Framemeister are a joke, and as proof, you offer someone else's YouTube video? That's poor proof indeed. The fact that you would do it seems like a joke to me.

The uneven scanlines in the picture you posted are exactly what the Framemeister looks like when you try to play in 1080p without configuring it properly - and I speak from experience here. The Framemeister looks much better than that when configured properly, I don't purport to know exactly how that YouTube video was captured (could easily have been captured at 1080p and downscaled), but that's exactly how the scanlines look on the Framemeister when it's not calibrated correctly, and I'm telling you again (from experience) that that can be fixed. The brightness and contrast being "ruined" is your opinion, and is the side effect of any sort of scanline generator, nothing inherent to the Framemeister and can be compensated for with calibration if such a thing bothers you. If anything, the brightness/contrast of how the image actually looks like on scree depends more on the monitor than anything. So, trying to use that video as some sort of proof of the Framemeister's inadequacy is ignorant and reeks of insecurity on your part. There's plenty of VALID criticisms to be levied at the Framemeister.

And, again, the scanlines can be turned off on the Framemeister if they bother you.

If I recall correctly, the Framemeister's main problem with regards to colours is YUV420 colourspace compression. It stores the entire frame in the framebuffer, and converts it from RGB to YUV420.

Anyone that's worked in video editing knows why this is a terrible idea.

Of course, actually showing captured examples is quite difficult. And an extremely expensive proposition. I have seen a few comparison shows in the past explaining why this is an issue, however, and will continue to try finding them. Needless to say, however, it gives the OSCC a huge lead for actually doing everything in RGB.

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Originally Posted by tryphon

It's debatable. In France we had Secam 50 Hz, with SCART everywhere.

So all the games were slow. And we got solid stripes when the games were in 224 pxl resolution rather than 240, so they were vertically stretched. And when I hear from here and there that some dithered gfx were nice on CRT bitd, I remember very well they never looked nice on mine...

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Hell, with more modern CRTs, the Composite decoders combined with GLORIOUS PAL can easily end up showing up dithering anyway, even on older machines such as the Mega Drive and the SNES.

Not just transmission technology has gotten better, but TVs have too. I recall my childhood TV from the 90s showing Mega Drive games up as relatively blurry via RF, and dithering actually working. The same Mega Drive over Composite on a TV I picked up for $30 new from The Reject Shop in 2009? Much much sharper.

Try emulators through homebrew the virtual console on the Wii at some point, also. Even through Composite, modern encoders are very sharp.

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Originally Posted by Tower of Power

You don't HAVE to own it, but if you're attempting to speak with authority on the subject (which you are) it's much better to speak from the experience of actually owning it, rather than the ignorance of not owning it. You are ignorant about the Framemeister, that is a fact, and the things you are saying are ignorant and wrong. And that's not an insult, that is a fact.

The uneven scanlines in the picture you posted are exactly what the Framemeister looks like when you try to play in 1080p without configuring it properly - and I speak from experience here. The Framemeister looks much better than that when configured properly, I don't purport to know exactly how that YouTube video was captured (could easily have been captured at 1080p and downscaled), but that's exactly how the scanlines look on the Framemeister when it's not calibrated correctly, and I'm telling you again (from experience) that that can be fixed. The brightness and contrast being "ruined" is your opinion, and is the side effect of any sort of scanline generator, nothing inherent to the Framemeister and can be compensated for with calibration if such a thing bothers you. So, trying to use that video as some sort of proof of the Framemeister's inadequacy is ignorant and reeks of insecurity on your part. There's plenty of VALID criticisms to be levied at the Framemeister.

And, again, the scanlines can be turned off on the Framemeister if they bother you.

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It's clear that you had no good reason to pick on my comments other than find a way to insult me, since you agreed with me two times already that TA's YT video doesn't look right; which was exactly what I said when you called me "ignorant". Which means you're just being cynical at this point.

I never said the scanlines were obligatory on the Framemeister. AggroSky uses it without the scanlines and his captures look awesome, like I said in other threads weeks ago. And that's why I criticize TA's and Retro Core's usage of it, which somehow allowed you to call me "ignorant" once again and suggest that I was just trolling TA.

By the way, the points gamevet and others had raised and which ignited the discussion are valid and still stand though:
- Depending on the consoles/systems you own, mod you'll be required to use it (unlike TA said initially).
- Framemeister scanlines aren't equivalent to CRT scanlines.
- CRT TVs still handle funky resolution changes better than the Framemeister and the OSSC.

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Originally Posted by Barone

It's clear that you had no good reason to pick on my comments other than find a way to insult me, since you agreed with me two times already that TA's YT video doesn't look right; which was exactly what I said when you called me "ignorant". Which means you're just being cynical at this point.

I never said the scanlines were obligatory on the Framemeister. AggroSky uses it without the scanlines and his captures look awesome, like I said in other threads weeks ago. And that's why I criticize TA's and Retro Core's usage of it, which somehow allowed you to call me "ignorant" once again and suggest that I was just trolling TA.

By the way, the points gamevet and other had raised and which ignited the discussion are valid and still stand though:
- Depending on the consoles/systems you own, mod you'll be required to use it (unlike TA said initially).
- Framemeister scanlines aren't equivalent to CRT scanlines.
- CRT TVs still handle funky resolution changes better than the Framemeister and the OSSC.

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I have very good reason - you obviously have a bone to pick with the Framemeister and no ground to stand on, and you seem to think that people who own it are "elitists" or some other nonsense, and comparing it to an emulator. Honestly, I thought you are just trolling TA at first, but it seems like you were actually serious and are now back pedaling after being called out for it. If you make valid points, I will agree with you, if you hyperbolize and make BS claims, I will call you out for it.

As for the other points:

- Like I already said, the Framemeister supports input over composite and S-video as well as RGB. So, unless you're using something like an Atari 2600, you don't HAVE to mod anything. Unless you want RGB output, of course.
- Framemeister scanlines are definitely not equivalent to CRT scanlines, of course. But, when configured properly, they look fine (scanlines not being the main function of the Framemeister anyway).
- I can't speak for the OSSC, but this is definitely true for the Framemeister.

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Originally Posted by Tower of Power

I have very good reason - you obviously have a bone to pick with the Framemeister and no ground to stand on, and you seem to think that people who own it are "elitists" or some other nonsense, and comparing it to an emulator. Honestly, I thought you are just trolling TA at first, but it seems like you were actually serious and are now back pedaling after being called out for it.

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Lol, I didn't back pedal at all.
The shots TA used to spam the thread have two major similarities with emulation shots IMO: the fake scanlines and the sharpness.

And the way you both handled the criticism towards the equipment was surely elitist: criticizing people for talking about/questioning it without owning it, resorting to insults and spamming screen shots (TA only).

But I appreciate the information you shared, thanks.